Dynamic Range Boost

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Travis Hodgkinson

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Dynamic Range Boost

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 1:48 pm

When are we going to see some serious improvements to DR in BMD cine cameras? Like around the 17+ stops of range?

What are the reasons you think they haven’t been able to produce higher amounts of DR so far?

Do you think it’s a cost issue? Is the R&D just too high?

I’d love to have seen the 12K with at least 16 stops or there abouts.
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John Griffin

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 2:28 pm

BM don't make the sensors. When the big sensor makers produce chips with 17+ stops of DR I'm sure BM will be looking to incorporate them in their future cameras.
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Mike Potton

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 9:19 pm

If someone could just conjure up a 17 stop sensor they would have by now.

Remember sensors capture photons in a linear fashion, a stop is a doubling of light, to get from 14 to 15 stops for instance you need a sensor capable of handling 2x the amount of photons hitting it. I once read (no idea if it's true) that silicon based sensors will tap out at about 14 useable stops, indeed they have. The Arri ALEV-III sensor which is a great benchmark is 10+ years old. We have seen dual gain and Reds HDRx options to try and push the envelope, but it's workarounds at this stage.

The next jump will require quite a breakthrough. Don't hold your breath.
Last edited by Mike Potton on Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jeffrey D Mathias

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 9:28 pm

Please keep in mind how much dynamic range a display has. What are manufacturers currently working toward? Also please keep in mind what display an intended audience is likely to have. For me story is not everything. I would enjoy creating great images as well... and I like a lot of dynamic range...but what can actually be most successful is always in my mind.
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Travis Hodgkinson

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostThu Oct 28, 2021 7:19 am

Thanks for taking the time in your responses.
I totally thought BMD designed the 12K sensor. Didn’t realise it was another companies product.

How are the REDs getting such high DR results? Is that maybe part reason BM cameras aren’t being used in Big Budget films? Purely basing it off of those Netflix/Oscar’s cameras used that comes out of every year.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostThu Oct 28, 2021 7:51 am

None of the manufacturer marketing numbers use the same scale. The dynamic range numbers touted by Red are embellished fantasy. In apples to apples testing using well documented methods, ARRI Alexa consistently scores the highest dynamic range of any RGB digital motion camera. Take a look at the dynamic range testing done by CML or CineD.com for an antidote to the marketing numbers.
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misterk

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostThu Oct 28, 2021 8:01 am

Travis Hodgkinson wrote: Is that maybe part reason BM cameras aren’t being used in Big Budget films? Purely basing it off of those Netflix/Oscar’s cameras used that comes out of every year.


Maybe, however there are many other variables that will not see BM cameras as A cams on set for a very long time. Additionally, 13-14 stops is plenty if you light your scene as you can maximize the range so well that more stops is really only helpful if you are shooting with 0 control over lighting/outdoors.

PS check out real DR tests not what brands tell you they achieve, its mostly marketing bs.
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John Griffin

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostThu Oct 28, 2021 4:43 pm

Jeffrey D Mathias wrote:Please keep in mind how much dynamic range a display has. What are manufacturers currently working toward? Also please keep in mind what display an intended audience is likely to have. For me story is not everything. I would enjoy creating great images as well... and I like a lot of dynamic range...but what can actually be most successful is always in my mind.

Display device DR has nothing to do with capture DR. You can capture 20 + stops of DR in stills with exposure blending and display it on a print with only 5 stops of DR……
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Jeffrey D Mathias

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostFri Oct 29, 2021 11:42 am

Oh contrair, display devices have everything to do with it. For some time I have put my photography into platinum/palladium prints... my preferred display "device". Now a days the digital display device that might replace that might be a 14-bit x-ray display (however I have not bought one and tried it.) For motion I have decided to go with BMD cameras... and in particularly now the URSA 12K. This camera can certainly out perform/deliver the best of displays now available.

To the reasoning of compressing the image so that it can fit a certain display... that is not what I am after. A gelatin silver print will never look like a Plantinptype; a B&W TV will never look the same as a theater for a technicolor film. I do not want to display a 5 stop image, even though I could limit myself in certain situations... but that is not my preference. I would like to display what the camera can do. Do not expect me to make a gel silver print when I am very much with Pt/Pd.

I feel that part of producing a work of art is a reasonable responsibility to communicate it to an audience. In my current situation, as I see it, that means finding a suitable display and such to communicate my intent. Otherwise I am relegated to compromising which either looses some of my intent or disciplines me to work within the confines of the particular medium (which can be a good thing.)

In any event, I feel current efforts for dynamic range need to be addressed in the display and somewhat delivery and not not so much in the camera.
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John Griffin

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostFri Oct 29, 2021 12:32 pm

I'm curious as to what particular 'intent' in artistic terms is can only be conveyed on a high contrast ratio output device?
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timbutt2

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostFri Oct 29, 2021 12:40 pm

Crazy idea, but what if with the 12K sensor they took half the pixels and did one dynamic range ISO, and then on the other half did another dynamic range ISO for dual ISO. Say for example 400 with 14 stops, and 3200 with 13. The 400 has more emphasis on the highlights, and the 3200 the shadows. Combined together you get the dynamic range that intersects between the two subtracted from the total range, and thus the dynamic range becomes something like 18 stops. Essentially I'm guessing there's 8-9 stops of intersecting dynamic range for the two ISOs. The final result resolution would be 6K because it would still be half the pixels from each "capture."

For a VistaVision 16K the result would be 8K with 18 stops of dynamic range.

Now this is a very crazy thought. And, I don't know what it would do to motion. It might be possible for the motion to look fine. But I am talking about merging exposures of two pixels, so hopefully the resulting image doesn't have artifacts. But there is more than likely going to be trade-offs with this method.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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Jeffrey D Mathias

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Re: Dynamic Range Boost

PostFri Oct 29, 2021 6:21 pm

Tim,
Interlace them.
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