EOL EF BMD Cameras

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Kim Janson

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 4:00 pm

Some flange distances

Screenshot 2022-01-13 at 17.52.32.jpg
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If the new mount flange distance would be below these, it would be possible to make adapter to adapt these all to the camera. Both RF and L-mount have 20 mm flange distance.

The way I see, BMD already has their mounting system

Screenshot%202022-01-10%20at%2022.48.10.jpg
Screenshot%202022-01-10%20at%2022.48.10.jpg (200.74 KiB) Viewed 575 times


But maybe they could improve it, maybe make also the camera end with bayonet maybe standardise the camera end of the protocol and make the adapters active, to adapt to the lens protocol and maybe make it available for other to use and develop adapters to, maybe even lenses.

I do think there will be demand for a camera that can adapt to wide variety of lenses. From company whose business is not to make lenses, but cameras.
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WahWay

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 5:17 pm

Do you think Sigma will collaborate with BMD in exchange for internal BRAW recording?
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John Brawley

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 5:55 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Some flange distances

Screenshot 2022-01-13 at 17.52.32.jpg


If the new mount flange distance would be below these, it would be possible to make adapter to adapt these all to the camera. Both RF and L-mount have 20 mm flange distance.

The way I see, BMD already has their mounting system

Screenshot%202022-01-10%20at%2022.48.10.jpg


But maybe they could improve it, maybe make also the camera end with bayonet maybe standardise the camera end of the protocol and make the adapters active, to adapt to the lens protocol and maybe make it available for other to use and develop adapters to, maybe even lenses.

I do think there will be demand for a camera that can adapt to wide variety of lenses. From company whose business is not to make lenses, but cameras.


Kim none of those are for a 135 format system till you get to about 20mm. Which is what L mount is.


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Kim Janson

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 6:21 pm

Yes, but likely you could not adapt RF to L-mount or vice versa as they both are 20mm and some space is needed for the adaptation, the ca. 10 mm flange distance would provide that adaptation space, so both L-mount and RF could be adapted to it.
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John Brawley

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 7:41 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Yes, but likely you could not adapt RF to L-mount or vice versa as they both are 20mm and some space is needed for the adaptation, the ca. 10 mm flange distance would provide that adaptation space, so both L-mount and RF could be adapted to it.



I think that's the point. Below 20mm starts becoming hard if you're trying to stay 135.

I don't thing RF adapting is happening anytime soon.

EF protocols were never fully supported, they were only HACKED and after the patent had expired. I know that Canon had ZERO INTEREST in helping anyone with the EF protocols, which is why you still get random issues with lens support on camera firmware updates. It's all been reverse engineered. I think it will be a long time before there's any unofficial RF lens support on any camera.

GIVE UP ON RF

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Kim Janson

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 8:06 pm

It comes down to this one picture, that is for photo cameras, video might be a bit different, but anyway things are much different than 10 years ago, the old rules may no more apply.

(and probably 20 and 21 would look prety depressing on that graph, except phones.)

Screenshot 2022-01-13 at 22.26.32.jpg
Screenshot 2022-01-13 at 22.26.32.jpg (475.3 KiB) Viewed 487 times


After 19th January we probably are wiser on how Canon sees the future.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 10:56 pm

John Brawley wrote:EF protocols were never fully supported, they were only HACKED and after the patent had expired. I know that Canon had ZERO INTEREST in helping anyone with the EF protocols, which is why you still get random issues with lens support on camera firmware updates. It's all been reverse engineered.

JB

I think this may be way I had my Sigma lenses lose connection with not only the Blackmagic cameras I had, but also the Canon 7D. I remember getting extremely frustrated with the Canon 7D and Sigma lenses losing iris control and the focus indicators because the lenses stopped communication with the camera. At least with the Blackmagic cameras I only lost iris control. The fix was removing the lens and putting it back on at times. Sometimes had to attach a different Canon lens to get it to work.

Yeah, I'm going to say good riddance to Canon EF. I'll spit in the direction of it as well with that "good riddance!"
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 11:40 pm

Apart from no AF all the Zeiss EF lenses have no problem working with Canon bodies but cant say the same with Ursa Mini cameras with EF mount which ocassionally loses iris. Interestingly I never experience losing iris on any EF lenses on first gen BMD cameras such as the original BMCC or BMPC4K. Also no problem with iris when using Metabones Speedbooster with MFT mount BMD cameras. So BMD seems to got the EF mount lens detection right way back in 2012 but not quite so later on.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 11:54 pm

WahWay wrote:Apart from no AF all the Zeiss EF lenses have no problem working with Canon bodies but cant say the same with Ursa Mini cameras with EF mount which ocassionally loses iris. Interestingly I never experience losing iris on any EF lenses on first gen BMD cameras such as the original BMCC or BMPC4K. Also no problem with iris when using Metabones Speedbooster with MFT mount BMD cameras. So BMD seems to got the EF mount lens detection right way back in 2012 but not quite so later on.


It depends on the lens.

Canon 85mm F1.2, 50mm F1 and the 100 macro were problems.

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Kim Janson

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostFri Jan 14, 2022 7:46 am

Yes it depends a lot of the EF lenses, even if it is a Canon lens, especially when controlling the camera+lens electrically.

- most of the new canon EF L-series have smoothed iris. it still have the steps, but moving between steps is smoothed.

- Canon EF STM 50mm f1.8 provides pretty smooth focus control and some other lenses, but most of them are very noisy and steppy on focusing.

- Metabones needs latest FW to work the best. Older FW may not work at all. this depends probaly also of camera it is used with and camera FW.

- P4k + Metabones works better than P6k, some focusing electrical control functions are missing on P6k.

It is sad really, because there is nothing difficult on lens control. I know, we have done lens control replacing B4 lens electronics completely and controlling it with MCU in lens, our code on it and using our protocol. Everything works very smooth, and the whole project was less than a week.(we had mechanically good lens and good iris, focus and zoom motors to start with) It is just standard automatisation engineering.

The problem really is the interface definition, lack of standard. (and that many of the users have reverse engineered it)

Canon originally developed the EF for photographing only that has very different needs than video work. Since that they have improved many things, and probably tried many things, and the EF protocol as result probably is a complete chaos even for Canon.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostFri Jan 14, 2022 10:36 am

Whatever Canon is announcing on January 18, 2022 in terms of mounts or cameras, wouldn’t it be amazing if they began to produce only cinema lenses that could be used for stills photography but completely designed to suit the purposes of cinematography with silence stepless gears and parfocal performance still controlled by wire but easily capable of manual use as well. Wouldn’t it blow you away if they included telecentric design too?

It seems an awful lot of professional cinematographers insist on using their stockpile of stills lenses for cinematography in spite of their fundamental unsuitability for that dual purpose. That’s never going to change except when you make a generational shift as they have done before.
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Jeffrey D Mathias

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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostFri Jan 14, 2022 12:26 pm

rick.lang wrote:It seems an awful lot of professional cinematographers insist on using their stockpile of stills lenses for cinematography in spite of their fundamental unsuitability for that dual purpose..


Well can one find a nice super telephoto for cinema for less than say $20K. oh yea, nice Fugis for $80K, $90K. I've been considering the Canon 300mm f2.8 for $6K... too bad it only comes with EF mount. (and electric aperture in 1/10 stop increments which will likely make noise like my 100-400)

It seems one just naturally ends up with various PL and EF mount lenses. This is why I would like to see a shorter locking mount on the URSA which could accept adapters from various lens mounts including EF, PL, MFT, and throw Nikon in there too. It would be nice if every lens manufacturer made a PL mount option, but they don't (or won't.) This would be far better for changing lenses. Each adapter could be live to accommodate the appropriate electronic transfers.

I understand the one lens thing as well. However, I find myself a lot of the time wishing for a wide and a tele. Oh well... just give up... it might even be cheeper to just buy another 12K so I can keep one PL and the other EF. Still would be nice to get some MFT lenses onto the super16 12K.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostSat Jan 15, 2022 1:04 am

With internal RAW recording coming to C70 this camera suddenly becomes much more interesting.
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostSat Jan 15, 2022 3:28 am

is there any lens maker that is making cine-grade glass with autofocus features?
(i'm not one for autofocus, but the demand seems to be loud among a certain *coughs "gimbal" *coughs crowd).

I'm curious with Sony and Canon's prosumer/pro line that autofocus and eye/face tracking is integrated to a point where lens makers might start to offer a lens that can do Cine-like focus gear AND autofocus??? just spitting here...
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Re: EOL EF BMD Cameras

PostSat Jan 15, 2022 4:45 am

It is not just autofocus, but repeatable, accurate and smooth focus, zoom and iris control, with fast reporting of current position.

For studio, VR and why not accurate remote focus pulling with some added features like pre stored focus positions and control how fast it moves between the pre-stored points and how it starts and stops the movement (linear, acceleration, s-curve etc.). And all that not only for focus but iris and zoom also. (that is what we did with the above mentioned B4 lens modification)

When that kind of lens control exist the auto focus, or rather focus assisting tools are just add on to that, and also things like making non par-focal lens electrically par-focal comes possible*. And also stuff like vertigo effect comes pretty easy.

The big challenge on a well working electrical focus and zoom is the mechanical build (iris is easier) That must be addressed on the lens design phase. The biggest challenge is smoothly starting and stopping and slowly moving zoom. The B4 lenses are well designed on this regard. The EF lenses are generally very bad with some exceptions.

*some par-focal experimenting with EF lens http://www.levitezer.com/blog/files/arc ... -2017.html

Ps. having this build in to the lens would indeed be nice, and if done correctly would work better and be les costly, those 3 motors are "Atlas Motor FIZ kit for Focus, Iris and Zoom Applications
$4,130.00" (just the first hit I found)

Screenshot 2022-01-15 at 7.27.34.jpg
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Canon does have this, have not tested it and have my doubts how well the control and reporting the current position works via EF mount. Would be interesting to see if someone has tested that with BMD Studio camera + focus and zoom on demand.

Screenshot 2022-01-15 at 7.35.12.jpg
Screenshot 2022-01-15 at 7.35.12.jpg (211.78 KiB) Viewed 152 times


And there is also the more serious EF mount lenses, but with EF it always seems to be the case of trying to go around the problem the mount was made for photography. (this lens probably has all control outside the EF protocol. It also has 16-Bit precise metadata output for virtual studio systems)

Screenshot 2022-01-15 at 8.35.25.jpg
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Maybe the problem is that we want 1000€ cine lens that is has it all :D
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