Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

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wemrick1

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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 12:25 am

Great thread and some great tangents as well. Definitely made me rethink HD vs UHD. Being at the bottom of the food chain so to speak, just having fun seeing what I can do with different technical approaches to creating images, most of the "professional" aspects of this thread have little relevance. To me cinema just refers to what is on a theater screen at the moment. To use cinema as a definition of technology is dubious to me. I see hand held shots now to convey confusion and extreme action. I see mirrorless footage creeping in here and there. I even see the occasional world according to GoPro as I find myself looing out of the bottom of a bucket. So I have come to the opinion that cinema means anything a producer decides to show me on a big screen. This makes a lot of sense to me. Utilize all the tools at hand to get the job done. There's a lot to be said about having that kind of pallet to paint with. This is a great forum for that. Many opinions to consider. Many perspectives to explore. The mention of overused terms spurred to little excerpt.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 2:22 am

John Paines wrote:The 50mm, as sole lens, was pretty common in classic art cinema. It definitely has telephoto characteristics.

Looks like you like Ozu Yasujirō.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 5:25 am

You know, the only thing I really get hung up on is acquisition codec and dynamic range. I think that's what matters most.

An example, I go back to watch an old show on a streamer and am shocked at the clipped highlights because of the low dynamic range of the cameras. Just went back to the pilot episode of a popular show shot on the RED One MX. Damn, those clipped highlights looked awful.

Yet, that original RED One MX was recording in REDRAW, which meant that it was a really good RAW Codec. So despite the dynamic range being awful, the codec was fine.

So does it matter if something is shot in 1080 HD or 2K if the codec was 12-bit 444? The acquisition codec could save the image a ton so that it looked great because you had a lot of flexibility to grade. ProRes 444 for example is a really nice codec. So 2K ProRes 444 allows you 12-bit log where you get a lot of the dynamic range of the camera.

RAW is obviously going to give the most flexibility. Most of the time RAW is the most desired because of that flexibility in post. Yet, up to recently in order to shoot raw you had to use all the resolution of the sensor. That is until the 12K.

It's when we get to these points on why we're choosing a camera that you understand what matters is the technical flexibility to mold the image in post. It's not resolution. UHD and above has become a standard in recent years, but isn't as pivotal as the other aspects.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 8:00 am

timbutt2 wrote:An example, I go back to watch an old show on a streamer and am shocked at the clipped highlights because of the low dynamic range of the cameras. Just went back to the pilot episode of a popular show shot on the RED One MX. Damn, those clipped highlights looked awful.

Yet, that original RED One MX was recording in REDRAW, which meant that it was a really good RAW Codec. So despite the dynamic range being awful, the codec was fine.

On the production set, regardless of the flexibility the codec can give, there are many ways those clipped highlights could have been improved or even avoided even with low DR. That fault wouldn’t be because of the camera’s DR limitations. The fault would be on those folks who are planning and/or assessing, and contemplating the shot. Between the director, DP, cam op, gaffer, and even the set designer, all have the responsibility to correct things so that the image would look right and clipping could still be there if that is the intended lighting. That’s my 0.02 cents.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 10:52 am

Second that. When the Red-MX was still very young, many professionals didn't know yet how to expose RAW correctly. I had to advise the team from a small European country (no name, sorry), who were in charge to present its natural beauties. It was a production for the World Expo and they were so disappointed with their footage. I showed them how to expose (most were nature shots) and how to massage it in RedCine-X.
In a few cases we needed some NR, but not always. In the end, they were blown away by their own footage.
Please note, compared to the Sony HD camera that shot one of the episodes of Star Wars not that much earlier, the DR of the Red MX was not that bad.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 4:19 pm

Ah yes, let's not forget the Sony Camera used on the Star Wars Prequels.

Good points about it being the responsibility of those involved to work around the weaknesses of the camera to ensure those clipped highlights didn't happen. That's a very true sentiment.

Also, why not point out that Avatar, the highest grossing movie of the last 20 years, was shot in 1080 HD. It was shot with the same Sony camera used on Star Wars Revenge of the Sith. Same weaknesses, and beyond that not exactly a light set up to put in a stereo 3D rig. Yet they accomplished that and got stunning 3D images that resulted in audiences loving the movie and the 3D.

Now, whether the movie has had a lasting effect is another thing. But the technical aspects of it show that 1080 HD was fine back then.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostSun Jan 16, 2022 4:33 pm

timbutt2 wrote:An example, I go back to watch an old show on a streamer and am shocked at the clipped highlights because of the low dynamic range of the cameras. Just went back to the pilot episode of a popular show shot on the RED One MX. Damn, those clipped highlights looked awful.


In all fairness, this might have been a creative choice. When grading really took off in post about 15 years ago, there were a lot of shows which were going for a very clipped and crushed look. I know so many films that were using Red Giant Magic Bullet as their primary way to grade.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 12:56 am

Well, if you look at "Che", the early Red model was challenged by the extreme contrast in the jungle. It was not an artistic choice to blow out some highlights, but they couldn't do better than that. I think they got the balance nailed pretty well.
Forgot the name, but for that sci-fi flick with predictions in a time capsule, where our sun becomes a Nova, which was also shot on Red around the same time, I'd consider overexposure a means of expression.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 2:36 am

You know I watched “Che” and some other early movies shot on the Red, but it’s been so long I’d have to revisit to know with certainty how they looked. I think I remember not liking how “The Informant” looked, despite enjoying the movie fine enough when I saw it in theaters. Again, would have to revisit.

Not sure what sci-fi film that was. But, I remember District 9 was also shot on the Red and as well the Sony EX series of cameras. But that was documentary style, so I think I was more forgiving then.

I did recently revisit some shows shot on Super 16mm like Veronica Mars and Psych. But there the highlight rolloff for the clipped highlights is extremely pleasing. So I feel like for some shows there may have been a challenge with the switch to Red on the digital level. Psych for example switched from Super 16mm to digital where they used the Red early on, but then settled on the ARRI Alexa. The show looked great when they switched to the Alexa, but the Red never looked as good as either the Super 16mm film or the ARRI Alexa.


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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 3:02 am

After remembering that Nicolas Cage was the lead actor, I found the title: "Know1ng" by Alex Proyas.
They went more and more into overexposure along with the story unfolding, which was an obvious choice.

For "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" (the remake of the Millennium Trilogy) DoP Jeff Cronenweth nailed it really well, in particular when scenes have lots of practicals (as David Fincher loves it). But that was a later model Red, IIRC.

And to get a little bit back to the subject: IIRC, the Red of the early times has 4.5K sensels, so it was able to resolve close to 4K. But all those films got finished in 2K.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 4:17 pm

timbutt2 wrote:You know, the only thing I really get hung up on is acquisition codec and dynamic range. I think that's what matters most.


Also the only thing I notice between 1080p and UHD/4K streaming content these days is 8bit banding in the 1080p - this is the biggest justification for 10bit UHD content, to me, regardless of acquisition format. I don't think resolution now is incrementally jaw dropping as it was from SD to HD, as that very convincing Yedlin fella demonstrates fully. I think there is a future case for remastering a lot of very fine 1080/2k/Alexa content to 4K for this alone. HDR is hit and miss for me too, though quite striking when done well but there are some fabulously luminous movies before ever that filter was lifted too.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 5:22 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:You know, the only thing I really get hung up on is acquisition codec and dynamic range. I think that's what matters most.


Also the only thing I notice between 1080p and UHD/4K streaming content these days is 8bit banding in the 1080p - this is the biggest justification for 10bit UHD content, to me, regardless of acquisition format. I don't think resolution now is incrementally jaw dropping as it was from SD to HD, as that very convincing Yedlin fella demonstrates fully. I think there is a future case for remastering a lot of very fine 1080/2k/Alexa content to 4K for this alone. HDR is hit and miss for me too, though quite striking when done well but there are some fabulously luminous movies before ever that filter was lifted too.



Well....

bit depth and resolution aren't always connected. And we're also straying into distribution codecs vs acquisition codecs now.

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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostMon Jan 17, 2022 8:15 pm

John Brawley wrote:Well....

bit depth and resolution aren't always connected. And we're also straying into distribution codecs vs acquisition codecs now.

JB


It's hard to separate acquisition, finishing and distribution total combined quality to answer the OP's question, since a movie is the end result not the rushes. Bit depth, sampling and compression can have a greater perceptual result on PQ than resolution at = to or greater than 1080p, at say streaming compression bandwidth, was my point. 2K DCPs on the other hand are much higher quality and 10 bit. It's perhaps unequal to compare directly 1080p/2K then to 4K+ acquisition now and many films that were shot on 1080p HDCAM SR, for example, could possibly look even better today were they remastered, in any case it's probably moot since very little is shot that way now.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 7:02 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:2K DCPs on the other hand are much higher quality and 10 bit. It's perhaps unequal to compare directly 1080p/2K then to 4K+ acquisition now and many films that were shot on 1080p HDCAM SR, for example, could possibly look even better today were they remastered, in any case it's probably moot since very little is shot that way now.

IQ and being able to discern from one resolution to another requires a keen and/or trained eye which I think most of us here are discussing or trying to make some point. But at the end of the day, the resolution of the distribution copy doesn’t make the movie goer ‘s beholding eye a decisive factor whether or not is was a good movie. In short, the audience only remembers a good story and probably the visual esthetics and production design, not the resolution or the codec used. Certainly we can strive to make each pixel better but there is a point of diminishing return and anything else just becomes a technical exercise for peepers.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 10:15 am

Ellory Yu wrote:IQ and being able to discern from one resolution to another requires a keen and/or trained eye which I think most of us here are discussing or trying to make some point.


When I've tried it with my own camera and lens, I can't tell the difference between 2K and 4K ProRes 4444 or 4K DNG on a 4K DCI monitor with objects in motion on a 4K timeline. I can't see it at 3 feet from a 32" 4K Monitor with static objects and a tripod. I have to lean in to the screen a few inches away to see a very slight bump in detail on a freeze frame.

My pick for 'great recent' is Zola https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/blog-post/zola
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 5:26 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:IQ and being able to discern from one resolution to another requires a keen and/or trained eye which I think most of us here are discussing or trying to make some point.


When I've tried it with my own camera and lens, I can't tell the difference between 2K and 4K ProRes 4444 or 4K DNG on a 4K DCI monitor with objects in motion on a 4K timeline. I can't see it at 3 feet from a 32" 4K Monitor with static objects and a tripod. I have to lean in to the screen a few inches away to see a very slight bump in detail on a freeze frame.

My pick for 'great recent' is Zola https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/blog-post/zola


Thank you, Ryan, exactly my point.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 5:58 pm

And if you *could* see the difference, who says that's a good thing? Storytelling is not forensic crime-scene photography.... Or look what happened when Peter Jackson and Ang Lee decided higher frames would be a great idea, and which audiences absolutely *can* see? The latest excuse running around is that HFRs only really work with HDR and brighter screens. Can hardly wait....

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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostTue Jan 18, 2022 6:42 pm

The Tragedy of Macbeth. B&W and heavily influenced by Wells, Kurosawa and Bergman in composition and lighting but just too sharp and too much detail (IMO). When you watch celluloid you are aware you are watching a medium. This new digital high res and high DR is just too close to reality and too far from the idea of film as a separate reality in itself. This is the problem. We want to see a subject represented and filtered through a medium and not as it would appear in real life. Modern tech is getting far too close to the latter.....
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 8:52 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:IQ and being able to discern from one resolution to another requires a keen and/or trained eye which I think most of us here are discussing or trying to make some point. But at the end of the day, the resolution of the distribution copy doesn’t make the movie goer ‘s beholding eye a decisive factor whether or not is was a good movie. In short, the audience only remembers a good story and probably the visual esthetics and production design, not the resolution or the codec used. Certainly we can strive to make each pixel better but there is a point of diminishing return and anything else just becomes a technical exercise for peepers.


Essentially if I understand you Ellory, we are in agreement, and that was my point, as I think Steve Yedlin demonstrated. I am not a cinematographer but my day job is IQ as an online/finishing and grading editor. And you are totally right to suggest that most people can be trained in this. I made the mistake that I hope I'm not doing here of innocently responding to someone on FB who claimed that women made better colourist's than men, since some science suggested they are more sensitive to colour. I honestly have no idea if this is true but I gently suggested that human beings, as a whole, have rather poor colour vision, compared to many other animals and even someone with less than stellar sensitivity can be trained to do a good job, since it the practice of training to recognise colour differences and use the much more sensitive calibrated tools at our disposal that lie less, both of which are open to anyone who chooses that path.
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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 10:57 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote: I made the mistake that I hope I'm not doing here of innocently responding to someone on FB who claimed that women made better colourist's than men, since some science suggested they are more sensitive to colour. I honestly have no idea if this is true but I gently suggested that human beings, as a whole, have rather poor colour vision, compared to many other animals and even someone with less than stellar sensitivity can be trained to do a good job, since it the practice of training to recognise colour differences and use the much more sensitive calibrated tools at our disposal that lie less, both of which are open to anyone who chooses that path.



Men generally have worse colour discernment and perception than women.

The key phrase is "generally" because there's always outliers.

1 in 12 men have a color vision deficiency compared to 1 in 200 women. But that doesn't mean that men are worse, just that there's fewer of them :-)

Though there are also some woman that appear to have an EXTRA colour receptor too
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists ... r-receptor

and

https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/t ... man-vision

"An unknown number of women may perceive 
millions of colors invisible to the rest of us. One British scientist is trying to track them down and understand their extraordinary power of sight"

I'm pretty sure I had a female director that had this gene ! She was so specific about colour in the grade with myself and a very experienced male colourist weren't really seeing.

I've always been wary about the use of the phrase "can the audience notice" because...

It's not as simple as that. We human have pretty poor visual perception in some ways, and a lot of stuff get's past us. Has anyone notices that film is actually 24 individual frames in a secon d and isn't continuous !? :-)

Anyway, the point is, sure we can't SEE a difference but as soon as you put those images through pipeline of grading, vfx, delivery into the big bad world, the higher the resolution, the better the bit depth, the less compressed, the better those shots SURVIVE that process. Sure you can't see individually the difference between 422 and 444 but you sure can if you're trying to pull a key from it....

JB
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Uli Plank

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Re: Great recent Movies Shot in 1080p or 2K ?

PostFri Jan 21, 2022 1:19 am

The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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