Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

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rick.lang

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Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostWed Jan 19, 2022 4:36 pm

A merger of the R5 and the C70, with active cooling for ‘limitless’ recording including internal raw on CFexpress with lots of support for auto focus and tracking. Perhaps not a perfect solution but it looks interesting and capable. I wonder if BMD will have a camera this year that shares many of the features of this ‘pocket’ mirrorless camera but in a different form factor (URSA)?

Thorough coverage by FDTimes:

https://www.fdtimes.com/2022/01/19/canon-eos-r5-c/
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostWed Jan 19, 2022 5:08 pm

I saw and am intrigued. Ultimately, CFExpress is definitely the future recording media that Blackmagic needs to embrace. I'll be curious to see what they do with the Pocket and URSA line based off this release. I do applaud Canon for doing two different UI for photo and video. That certainly solves the ugly UI of old DSLR and Mirrorless cameras that also did video. Still, Blackmagic has the better UI and Menu System.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostWed Jan 19, 2022 5:21 pm

I would much prefer a Blackmagic 4K camera with full frame and a modern lens mount (i.e. not EF). Blackmagic -- if you're reading this -- please give me your equivalent of the Sigma fp!

This whole 8K push is absurd and utterly unnecessary. I finally bought myself an UHD for Xmas, and quite frankly I can hardly tell any difference from my old HD TV.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostWed Jan 19, 2022 5:39 pm

Tim, it may be a plus to support CFexpress in the long run, but the highest R5 C in-camera recording uses a maximum of 325MB/s which is well within the capabilities of CFast2 cards from Wise and Angelbird etc.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostWed Jan 19, 2022 5:51 pm

Kays, just like the BMD UMP12K, most people will use those pixels too over sample a lower recording resolution. The R5 C can record 8192x4320 or 4K or 2K from the full sensor readout.

If you want to crop the sensor recording Cinema RAW Light in 5952x3140 (Super35) or 2976x1570 (Super16) to deliver in 4K or 2K.

With a photosite of about 4.4 microns (versus 2.2 microns on the BMD UMP12K) for the 8K sensor, I wonder if Canon considered going to a RGBWWW CFA or scrapping 8K and shooting with a 4K sensor using 8.8 micron photosites in the identical 36x24mm form factor. Wouldn’t that have produced greater dynamic range?
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostWed Jan 19, 2022 6:26 pm

rick.lang wrote:Tim, it may be a plus to support CFexpress in the long run, but the highest R5 C in-camera recording uses a maximum of 325MB/s which is well within the capabilities of CFast2 cards from Wise and Angelbird etc.

Well, that's because Canon can't take advantage of the full potential of the cards. Blackmagic can with Blackmagic RAW and their cameras for higher frame rates recording on a single card at their high resolutions.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 1:26 am

I’d presumed that newer models in the Cinema EOS line would include Canon’s dual-gain output sensors by default from now on. But turns out their dual-gain output only comes in the Super 35 size for now.

Seems like Canon are still intentionally or unconsciously fractionating their cameras within the same product lines – this has striking parallels with 1D X and 1D C.

R5 C more or less appears to be a course correction targeted towards those who were displeased with the R5’s video capability.

Considering the low pixel pitch of 4.4 µm though, I’d wait for R3’s sensor folded into Cinema EOS, or the rumored C90.

It’d be even more fascinating if they can produce a dual-gain full frame sensor for the next one.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 2:10 am

Good observations. I wonder why the raw recording rates are limited to broadcast rates (with the exception of 24 fps). 59.94p fps but no 60p for Canon raw light.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 3:03 am

rick.lang wrote:Kays, just like the BMD UMP12K, most people will use those pixels too over sample a lower recording resolution.


It's a dumb waste of pixels...don't believe me? Ask ARRI...hands down still the best digital image in the biz...no oversampling required.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 3:24 am

… Which is why I think they must have considered going for a ‘full frame’ 4K sensor with 8.8 micron photosites. Perhaps we’ll never know. However dumb there seems to be a crowd chasing pixel counts for cinema and the current leader is BMD with almost 80 million photosites.

The RGBWWW approach doesn’t seem dumb to me but the 2.2 micron photosites of the 12K seems more suited to a smartphone. Maybe a BMD 6K with 4.4 micron photosites and a RGBWWW CFA would be the most interesting approach given the minuscule market for 12K and 8K cinematography. The 6K 4.4 microns RGBWWW Super35 would play to the current market and current cinema reality. It would also have the same capability to form the base for the gorgeous images coming from Resolve with today’s 12K raw. And with the 6K approach, maybe ProRes could be added.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 3:36 am

rick.lang wrote:… Which is why I think they must have considered going for a ‘full frame’ 4K sensor with 8.8 micron photosites. Perhaps we’ll never know. However dumb there seems to be a crowd chasing pixel counts for cinema and the current leader is BMD with almost 80 million photosites.

The RGBWWW approach doesn’t seem dumb to me but the 2.2 micron photosites of the 12K seems more suited to a smartphone. Maybe a BMD 6K with 4.4 micron photosites and a RGBWWW CFA would be the most interesting approach given the minuscule market for 12K and 8K cinematography. The 6K 4.4 microns RGBWWW Super35 would play to the current market and current cinema reality. It would also have the same capability to form the base for the gorgeous images coming from Resolve with today’s 12K raw. And with the 6K approach, maybe ProRes could be added.
There is a lot of people who question the pixel count chasing. I’m one of them. And remember, I’m the one pitching a 16K VistaVision Sensor as the logical next step after the 12K Super 35mm Sensor.

Either way, at some point we’ll stop chasing number of pixels and start chasing better pixels. Smarter pixels that allow for more dynamic range. We’ll see.

I do look at the 12K less for the resolution and more for the color science and dynamic range. There’s a lot of potential with the new sensor design.

I’m most fascinated to see what Blackmagic does this year. I think beginning of March might be the best time to keep our eyes peeled for an announcement based of the announcements of the first UMP, and then the G2. Either then or close to the normal April NAB time period. We’ll see.


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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 3:46 pm

rick.lang wrote:The RGBWWW approach doesn’t seem dumb to me but the 2.2 micron photosites of the 12K seems more suited to a smartphone. Maybe a BMD 6K with 4.4 micron photosites and a RGBWWW CFA would be the most interesting approach given the minuscule market for 12K and 8K cinematography. The 6K 4.4 microns RGBWWW Super35 would play to the current market and current cinema reality. It would also have the same capability to form the base for the gorgeous images coming from Resolve with today’s 12K raw. And with the 6K approach, maybe ProRes could be added.


It's all this over hyped academic BS honestly. The only thing that matters is the image -- period. Once again I look at something like the ARRI Alexa and it's still not beaten in terms of filmic image, despite not even having 4K resolution.

IMHO the more Blackmagic chases crazy resolutions, the more they're moving away from what made them so desirable in the first place. They hit magic with the original 2.5K camera -- something about that sensor was really special.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 4:33 pm

I’m guessing BMD’s upcoming cine-line products may be due for late 2022 or early 2023.

The ongoing semiconductor shortage and the overall supply-chain crises have forced camera companies to cancel or refresh a number of scheduled products.

So it’s possible that the R5 C is a placeholder or refreshed product, and the launch of others such as C50 and C90 might be up in the air.

It’d be interesting to see how Arri, BMD, and others have changed plans to release upcoming products.

Arri were initially planning to launch their Super 35 4K camera in 2020. Then last year, they were planning to unveil it in late 2021 or early 2022.

DJI and Sony though were still able to introduce the Ronin 4D and Venice 2 last year.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 4:36 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
It's a dumb waste of pixels...don't believe me? Ask ARRI...hands down still the best digital image in the biz...no oversampling required.



Not exactly.

The original sensor design is old.

It was designed for an era when cinema delivery was 2K DCI / 1920.

If you look at the specs of the original Arri sensor it’s over sampled for that delivery.

They have unusually large photosites, combined with dual gain architecture, something no one else is doing and it HURT them because of the 4K native requirements of some streamers. You can’t physically make a 4K sensor in S35 if the pixels are that large. They sort of got around this by sticking them together to make an LF (two sensors) or the Alexa 65 (three sensors) but the fact is, in S35 you can’t make a 4K sensor with this design without making the pixels smaller.

The NEW Arri s35 camera is going on more than 2 YEARS late.

This was not because of Covid. The talk is that it’s because they can’t make a better sensor than what they already have. They are still having troubles getting it to work as expected. Everyone is naturally going to compare it to what it’s replacing. Might look embarrassing if it’s not fundamentally better.

I’m sure this camera will eventually drop, but I bet it’s more of a small improvement / not much improvement compared to the original which is now over 10 years old and probably a 15 year old design, only now “in 4K”.

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Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 4:55 pm

Perhaps ARRI will release a Super35 4096x2160 sensor with 6.6 micron photosites; that’s the largest that will work with most Super35 lenses. Or maybe 6.5 microns like the original BMCC. But that sensor wouldn’t support any oversampling and so may not be their best 4K deliverable image. It might be that a Super35 6K sensor with 4.4 micron photosites is the best compromise to support existing Super35 lenses.

If they decide to upset everyone, go for roughly ‘full frame’ 6144x3456 with 6 microns as the preferred compromise, with oversampling, in terms of 4K image quality. If ARRI doesn’t do it, someone else will eventually. Television manufacturers might be upset as well if manufacturers don’t push 8K for prosumer home use. Still that would be an evolutionary change.

A shocker would be using minimum 8 microns per photosite and shoot with medium format lenses. That would be revolutionary.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 5:08 pm

I can't help but think that super35 as a digital format is going away to be replaced by full frame or even larger.

Canon, Sigma, Panasonic and Sony are all pushing hard for full frame solutions and given what John just mentioned about size, it might be the most sensible solution for technical reasons as well.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 5:36 pm

I mean, most of the lenses I now have are able to cover Full Frame. The entire DZOFilm Vespid Prime set I have covers Full-Frame/VistaVision. The DZOFilm Pictor Zooms cover Super 35mm, but DZOFilm now has the Catta Zooms as well. They still have to announce and release the PL versions, but that will happen soon I'm sure. So affordable cinema glass now exists. The higher end glass is also available.

Either way, the point is that I'd have no issue going to a Full-Frame/VistaVision size. As long as there is a Super 35mm Window Mode for when you want to shoot that then you're fine. And, that means you could still use all the glass we love for Super 35mm. The question is whether it truly makes the image better?

Eventually there's going to be a peak. What matters most to the audience is the story. These tools simply allow us to capture the imagery. And, when it comes down to the distribution we're still not seeing the full quality of what we capture because of heavy compression. So the question is does it matter if we shoot 8K resolution when people will only see it in 4K at 50 Mb/s through a streamer?
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostThu Jan 20, 2022 6:01 pm

rick.lang wrote:Perhaps ARRI will release a Super35 4096x2160 sensor with 6.6 micron photosites...


Arri have revealed that their S35 4K sensor has an Open Gate diagonal of 33.96 mm:

https://www.fdtimes.com/2021/10/27/what ... 4k-camera/

And on their website, they’ve already published that its aspect ratio is 4:3.

So, proper maths shows us that it’s most likely a 27.168 × 20.376 mm S35 4K sensor.

As for the resolution, it’s likely to be lower than 4448 x 3096 so as to not cannibalize the Alexa LF; 6K is highly unlikely.

I think the pixel pitch is likely to be around 6.5 µm, possibly coupled with a dual-gain output.

Should be interesting, because this would be their first sensor not having the ALEV III’s dual-gain 8.25-µm pixel pitch.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostFri Jan 21, 2022 1:13 am

Although I like this trend that more cameras that shoot RAW are being made that take advantage of Super 16 Cine film lenses, just how compatabile are they with this new Canon R5 C camera?

In S16 3K 17:9 (13mm x 8.7mm) mode, the Canon R5 C uses (114/87.1) 31% more sensor area

Edit - In S16 3K 17:9 (13mm x 6.9mm) mode, the Canon R5 C uses (90.6/87.1) 11% more sensor area

and is 5% wider (13.08/12.4425=1.05) than the BMPCC 4Ks 2.6K 16:9 (12.44mm x 7mm) mode. Will this mean that wide angle S16 lenses will vignette on the Canon R5 C?

Canon R5 C 3K 17:9
2976/8192 = .36328125 x 36 = 13.078125mm

1570/4320 = .36342592 x 24 = 8.72222222mm
13.078125 x 8.72222222 = 114.07 sq mm


Edit - Since the height at 17:9 is not 24mm, but 19.0588235mm, (36/17=2.11764705 x 9):
1570/4320 = .36342592 x 19.0588235 = 6.926mm
13.078125 x 6.92647046460512 = 90.6mm

Thank you Bromine 18 for correcting my math.

BMPCC 4K 2.6K 16:9
2688/4096=.65625x18.96=12.4425mm
1512/2160=.7x10=7mm
7x12.4425=87.0975 sq mm

What chance of not vignetting would my Kinoptik Tegea 5.7mm T/1.8 S16 lens have on the Canon R5 C? It covers 2.6K on my BMPCC 4K, but vignettes slightly at 2.8K 4:3. This is at a sensor width of (2880/4096=.7031 x 18.96) 13.331mm, close to the Canon R5 C's 17:9 3K mode at 13.08mm.

Could the R5 C's larger S16 sensor window mean that old 16mm film lenses that barely squeak by on the BMPCCs 2.6K 16:9 mode, will vignette on the Canon R5 C in 3K 17:9 mode?

On the BMPCC 4K at 2.6K, my Zeiss Variosonnar 10-100mm T3.0 ARRI B mount (a popular and affordable old film school standard lens) covers S16 at 50mm to 100mm (some posters say it doesn't cover S16 at any focal length on their Cine film cameras), and my affordable Angenieux 9.5-57mm F/1.6-2.2 ARRI S mount lens covers S16 at 13mm to 57mm (some posters say it covers S16 from 25 mm and up on their Cine film cameras).
Last edited by dondidnod on Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostFri Jan 21, 2022 1:56 am

The Canon R5 C Super16 horizontal width is 5% larger than the BMPCC4K Super16 (2.6K). Some wide angle zooms may have a problem, as you point out, reaching their minimum focal length.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostFri Jan 21, 2022 2:07 am

dondidnod wrote:In S16 3K 17:9 (13mm x 8.7mm) mode...


I think they specify that there are 2 different effective-pixel resolution modes for video: 8192 × 4320 and 7680 × 4320.

In both cases, the height of what they call the “Effective Sensor Screen Size” is 19 mm and not 24 mm, and the width varies between 36 and 33.8 mm.

So if we consider 0.36328125 × 36/33.8 and 0.36342592 × 19, then the S16 area should come close to 13/12.28 × 6.9 mm.

12.28 × 6.9 mm seems more appropriate for S16, and should not be susceptible to vignetting.

EDIT: Actually, it’d be 2976 ÷ 8192 and 2976 ÷ 7680 for 36 and 33.8 mm.

So, it’d come to 0.36328125 × 36 and 0.3875 × 33.8, both of which give a width of 13 mm.

Then it’s likely that the S16 area is in fact 13 × 6.9 mm.
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostFri Jan 21, 2022 4:33 am

Bromine 18 wrote:12.28 × 6.9 mm seems more appropriate for S16, and should not be susceptible to vignetting.

Yes, it would be better to use a 16:9 aspect ratio, but that would require cropping in post to 2.8K.

Canon R5 C 3K cropped at 16:9
1570 / 9 = 17.4444 x 16 = 2791
2791/8192 = .34071180 x 36 = 12.2656mm
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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 9:20 pm

interesting stabilization comparison

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Re: Canon R5 C 8K 36x24mm sensor

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 9:47 pm

Thanks, Marc. I would feel comfortable using the R5 C after seeing these results.
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