Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

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James Harkness

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Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSat Jan 22, 2022 12:21 am

I just the 6k pro, still wrapped in box though. Wondering if I shouldve waited till nab release? Opinions?
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSat Jan 22, 2022 2:38 am

I think you're safe. More than likely the "big" announcement will be URSA Mini related. An updated 12K or URSA Micro. The P6KPro is less than a year old. The 12K is nearing two years by July. The 12K was introduced July 16, 2020. Pocket 6K Pro was introduced February 17, 2021.

Other big announcement will be DaVinci Resolve 18. Resolve 17 was introduced November 8th, 2020.

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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSat Jan 22, 2022 1:29 pm

And the URSA Broadcast G2 has the matching sensor to the Pocket 6K Pro right? So you have a full multi camera kit available with BRAW GEN 5 color.

I wonder if others who are happy with the Pocket 6K image will begin to adopt the URSA Broadcast G2 as a step up or add on?
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSat Jan 22, 2022 4:15 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:And the URSA Broadcast G2 has the matching sensor to the Pocket 6K Pro right? So you have a full multi camera kit available with BRAW GEN 5 color.

I wonder if others who are happy with the Pocket 6K image will begin to adopt the URSA Broadcast G2 as a step up or add on?



Good point about the sensor being used in a brand new release. I feel pretty safe with this purchase. I think any upgrade will be atleast double the price, and anything less would *hopefully not be as good.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSat Jan 22, 2022 7:28 pm

I also think one is ‘safe’ buying the BMPCC6K Pro at this time if that’s the weight and form factor you want; the new Broadcast camera is very appealing though as an upgrade if you like the URSA Mini form factor.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSat Jan 22, 2022 11:26 pm

The one thing I'd love to see in a Firmware update for the Broadcast G2: ISO Option instead of Gain. Give the option to choose how you want this displayed in the menu. I personally prefer ISO coming from more of a film/cinema background. This would also make matching the Pocket 6K cameras with the Broadcast G2 easier since then they both will display ISO.

Otherwise, yeah the Broadcast G2 having the Pocket 6K sensor means that the sensor is still being embraced by Blackmagic Design.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 6:20 am

That makes a lot of sense with a camera that switches mounts from a broadcast B4 mount to EF or PL. I wouldn’t be surprised if that switch of menu options promoted sales of the camera. Without it, one can adapt, but much easier if the menu helped rather than hindered adoption.

The current cameras that are promoted as cinema cameras also allow shutter speeds as well as shutter angles to help those more familiar with photography options even though cinematographers generally use shutter angles. So let’s see that flexibility with ISO or Gain.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 10:50 am

Hey, I don't think that blackmagic will release new sensor maybe new camera with the 12k sensor in a box form
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 6:04 pm

My thinking is that BMD is more focus on making broadcast camera and related equipments and doing away with film/Cine cameras. Not sure why and it may be just the cost and much higher ROI for them.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 6:10 pm

They definitely have a good position in the budget broadcasting equipment market, with the rise of livestreaming I see them everywhere. But what makes you think this makes them drop out of the cinema market, especially with them having released two cinema cameras (6k Pro and Ursa 12k) in the last year and a half? That's like saying Canon is going to drop out of the camera market because their printers have been selling well.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 6:26 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:My thinking is that BMD is more focus on making broadcast camera and related equipments and doing away with film/Cine cameras. Not sure why and it may be just the cost and much higher ROI for them.

I disagree. Blackmagic has a great position in the film/cinema camera world right now. The 12K makes great images. A lot of people get hung up on the resolution, but the sensor design is honestly really brilliant.

I'd love to see an updated URSA Mini Pro 12K that has CFExpress as the recording media and some other body improvements. Possibly up the sensor size to VistaVision, which would be 16K based of the 12K sensor design. Otherwise I think that the possibility of an URSA Micro 12K is also probable. If they introduced a URSA Micro 12K with CFExpress capable of up to 60 FPS that would be amazing. And then with the URSA Mini Pro 12K Version 2 with CFExpress getting 120 FPS it would make for the perfect pairing.

They have something up their sleeves. They invested a lot of money, research and development, and effort into building their 12K sensor. I don't believe for a second that they aren't going to expand upon it with some incredible hardware.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 7:02 pm

Maybe put the sensor into the 6KPro body and limit to 8K ? At the same time let the HDMI have wider resolutions than 1080.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 7:15 pm

SkierEvans wrote:Maybe put the sensor into the 6KPro body and limit to 8K ? At the same time let the HDMI have wider resolutions than 1080.

I honestly dislike having HDMI on the Pockets. I prefer SDI more. Even using the Micro SDI from the Video Assist 5" would work well for the Pockets.

But if concepts of the URSA Mini Pro, Pocket 6K Pro, and the Micro Cinema Camera were all taken and merged into an URSA Micro that would probably work best. Take the internal ND mechanism of the Pocket 6K Pro for the Micro Cinema Camera body design, but make it a little bigger to accommodate the bigger sensor and larger lens mounts. Use URSA Mini Pro interchangeable lens mount system.

I think instead of the Hirose 12-pin broadcast connector do a 2-Pin Lemo Connector for powering Lens Motors like a Tilta Nucleus M for example. In fact, I'd want to newer URSA Mini Pro that has CFExpress to also have the 2-Pin Lemo in place of the 12-Pin Hirose for similar purposes.

As for an attached monitor. I think the built in Status Display of the UMP would be most ideal for the Micro. However, maybe have a little more menu access. Either way, you don't need a full on monitor, just something to see settings and be able to access the menu. We'll use External Displays and EVFs with the Micro.

Last I prefer V-Mount or Gold Mount Batteries. And, they're now small enough with large capacities that you could easily put a mount on the back of the camera and power it. RED Raptor demonstrates this.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 7:37 pm

I just feel changing the sensor and HDMI output would result in a more useful camera that I would be interested in getting. I have a Ninja V and it would be nice to have 8K internal and record a 4K backup to the Ninja. That change to the 6K Pro may not change the cost too much either and add a camera to the range. Also provide presence for BM in the increasing mirrorless cameras shooting 8K.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 11:01 pm

timbutt2 wrote:
SkierEvans wrote:Maybe put the sensor into the 6KPro body and limit to 8K ? At the same time let the HDMI have wider resolutions than 1080.

I honestly dislike having HDMI on the Pockets. I prefer SDI more. Even using the Micro SDI from the Video Assist 5" would work well for the Pockets.

But if concepts of the URSA Mini Pro, Pocket 6K Pro, and the Micro Cinema Camera were all taken and merged into an URSA Micro that would probably work best. Take the internal ND mechanism of the Pocket 6K Pro for the Micro Cinema Camera body design, but make it a little bigger to accommodate the bigger sensor and larger lens mounts. Use URSA Mini Pro interchangeable lens mount system.

I think instead of the Hirose 12-pin broadcast connector do a 2-Pin Lemo Connector for powering Lens Motors like a Tilta Nucleus M for example. In fact, I'd want to newer URSA Mini Pro that has CFExpress to also have the 2-Pin Lemo in place of the 12-Pin Hirose for similar purposes.

As for an attached monitor. I think the built in Status Display of the UMP would be most ideal for the Micro. However, maybe have a little more menu access. Either way, you don't need a full on monitor, just something to see settings and be able to access the menu. We'll use External Displays and EVFs with the Micro.

Last I prefer V-Mount or Gold Mount Batteries. And, they're now small enough with large capacities that you could easily put a mount on the back of the camera and power it. RED Raptor demonstrates this.


I’m completely with you Tim. Only thing I hope to se is that this is something in between the pocket 6K pro and the URSA Mini Pro 12K in a box form factor like the Komodo but with URSA steroids and pocket pricing.

Since NAB is just around the corner, hoping this wishful thinking will be some real close to what they’ll have.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 12:32 am

Most cinema camera makers are incorporating AF So I think that BMD is probably working on solution for this if not it will probably end up as a nitch cmera for holdouts.


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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 1:03 am

ricardo marty wrote:Most cinema camera makers are incorporating AF So I think that BMD is probably working on solution for this if not it will probably end up as a nitch cmera for holdouts.


Ricardo Marty

Um... I don't think Arri is working on incorporating AF into their cinema cameras.

Honestly, for me AF isn't a deal breaker. I understand a lot of single person shooters live by it. But I'd rather have an AC pulling focus.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 2:27 am

ricardo marty wrote:Most cinema camera makers are incorporating AF So I think that BMD is probably working on solution for this if not it will probably end up as a nitch cmera for holdouts.


Ricardo Marty



Err..not really.

Sony Venice MK2 just dropped. Latest and greatest from Sony. No AF.

Arri's not likely either.

Canon aren't really a cinema camera maker if that's what you're thinking, despite having a "cinema" brand. Their lenses are more likely to be used in big boy adult narrative drama than the C series...

Panasonic have left the cinema field but no Varicam had AF either...

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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 4:13 am

timbutt2 wrote:
ricardo marty wrote:Most cinema camera makers are incorporating AF So I think that BMD is probably working on solution for this if not it will probably end up as a nitch cmera for holdouts.


Ricardo Marty

Um... I don't think Arri is working on incorporating AF into their cinema cameras.

Honestly, for me AF isn't a deal breaker. I understand a lot of single person shooters live by it. But I'd rather have an AC pulling focus.

AF is not important to me either, or more folks using the camera for narrative filmmaking. I hope this is not another camera to please YouTubers. :(
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 4:29 am

But I’m sure they are the largest market for BM.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 4:52 am

Yeah, I mean, let’s be honest here… who is shooting feature films on “pocket” or “micro” Blackmagic cameras? I own an OG Pocket, a BMMCC, a BMPC, and a Pocket 4K. Obviously, my love for Blackmagic runs deep. But really the only things that would get me to buy a new BM camera are:

1. Half-decent autofocus, and/or
2. Stabilized sensor

These are run-and-gun cameras. The lack of either of these features are glaring, for the most common use-case scenarios. I doubt anyone needs a 12K Pocket. But a Pocket that can be moved easily without image-destroying micro-jitters? Now that is wildly useful, at least to me. And I shoot both Narrative shorts and travel films. My .02, anyway.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 5:01 am

I'm afraid that years of research went into something like the AF of the Sony A7S III or the Canon R6/7.
If you need that level of 'AI', get one of these. I'd expect the R6 to get relatively cheap on the second-hand market with a new model with active cooling around the corner.
I'd consider the Canon R6 a great companion to the BM 6K Pro for event shooters, so you can have one very active camera with great AF and one that still delivers when the Canon needs a break to cool down…
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 5:09 am

It sounds to me like there is a difference in markets. And, that's where I think the narrative cinema market differs.

Honestly, I have little interest in the "YouTuber" market trend. And, for the most part the stuff I shoot that ends up there tends to be designed around looking more cinematic and crafted. In other words, the people hiring me to shoot that content don't care if my camera has autofocus because they're hiring me based on the quality of my past work. I don't use autofocus, and don't care to have it for the work I do.

That said, I understand the purpose. But I'm not buying my cameras based on whether autofocus is in the camera or not.

When I bought the first 2.5K Blackmagic Cinema Camera I bought it because of the high dynamic range, the internal raw recording, and the better codecs. It was at a time DSLRs had their greatest market penetration due to the DSLR Revolution. I hated shooting with DSLRs because they lacked features I expected in using a video camera like zebras and focus peaking. They didn't have that back then. And, the images were fairly ugly due to the lower dynamic range and crappy recording codec. H.264 50 Mb/s looked like garbage, and the 8-bit 420 image couldn't be pushed far in grading. I could care less that the DSLRs had Full Frame or APS-C sensor sizes then. The 2.5K gave me everything I wanted.

Yet the upgrade to the 4.6K URSA Mini was what I wanted after dealing with the 2.5K. The UMP and subsequent updates (including a brilliant UI and menu system overhaul in Firmware 4.0) made great improvements. The 12K sensor takes things to a new level because it is a custom designed sensor that give Blackmagic room to really craft the image they want.

So the features I ask for are always on the end of cinema filmmaking. I want a port at the front that connects with wireless motors for a FIZ unit. I want that port to allow power from the camera to those motors and as well communication with the camera so data can be shared. That data then can be fed to the Wireless Video System so that the AC can see it on a monitor. And, then I'd love for Slate Metadata to really work well with the editing software so we can rename and organize files wonderfully in the software. We're part way there on that one. See my past posts about it in other threads.

All this is to say, that I am not entirely in the market of the Pockets then. But I use them. I choose my URSA Mini Pro first and foremost. But if there needs to be a move for the Pockets to be more "consumer" friendly for the people who need autofocus, then Blackmagic can make that camera and I won't buy it. Then they can make the camera for me and other professionals who need the cinema features.

Like JB pointed out above, there are cinema camera makers not putting autofocus in their camera systems. Arri isn't doing it, and the people using their cameras have no interest in it. So we're talking about different markets, and they should exist as such.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 5:27 am

I think that’s fair. And it’s probably why Arri doesn’t make any “pocket” cameras. A pocket camera, by definition, is designed to be used walking around. Unless the “pocket” is in a pair of very large jeans that sit atop a tripod. ;)
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 5:29 am

Well, Arri has the Mini, but that's rather a modular system.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 5:47 am

Yeah, and by the time you build it up, it’s the size of an URSA Mini 12K, so why not just shoot with that? It seems to me that if the pocket-size Blackmagic cams are to have any future, they need to make mobile shooting their priority. Obviously, that’s totally different for the URSA Mini lineup, which is more likely to be used for actual “cinema”.

I think RED realized this, which is why they put phase-detect autofocus in the Komodo.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 6:10 am

Greg Lee wrote:Yeah, I mean, let’s be honest here… who is shooting feature films on “pocket” or “micro” Blackmagic cameras? I own an OG Pocket, a BMMCC, a BMPC, and a Pocket 4K. Obviously, my love for Blackmagic runs deep. But really the only things that would get me to buy a new BM camera are:

1. Half-decent autofocus, and/or
2. Stabilized sensor

These are run-and-gun cameras. The lack of either of these features are glaring, for the most common use-case scenarios. I doubt anyone needs a 12K Pocket. But a Pocket that can be moved easily without image-destroying micro-jitters? Now that is wildly useful, at least to me. And I shoot both Narrative shorts and travel films. My .02, anyway.

When I post what I said, I was referring to the URSA line and my thoughts are that another line for the professional cinematographers can be between the pocket 6K pro and the URSA 12k. Most in the category of the RED Komodo style and I wouldn’t mind if they brand it as the URSA micro. If they can include AF and image stabilizer without added cost to what I think is fair, that’s fine by me. But I am on Tim’s camp in the hopes it’s not another YouTuber design with another old DSLR body style.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 1:17 pm

I do not see them going image sensor stabilized as this will add considerable cost and complexity. I am always on a tripod so not needed. I also do not need continuous autofocus, touch is fine as that is what I use now on my GH5 and GH5S. I shoot UHD and crop in on a 1920x1080 project hence my desire for 8K that would give even more capabilities for re framing and motion( pan/zoom ). So list for me would be 8K BRAW with either internal dual record for backup or HDMI with at least UHD output. So dual CFexpress etc.
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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 2:52 pm

Greg Lee wrote:Yeah, I mean, let’s be honest here… who is shooting feature films on “pocket” or “micro” Blackmagic cameras? I own an OG Pocket, a BMMCC, a BMPC, and a Pocket 4K. Obviously, my love for Blackmagic runs deep. But really the only things that would get me to buy a new BM camera are:

1. Half-decent autofocus, and/or
2. Stabilized sensor

These are run-and-gun cameras. The lack of either of these features are glaring, for the most common use-case scenarios. I doubt anyone needs a 12K Pocket. But a Pocket that can be moved easily without image-destroying micro-jitters? Now that is wildly useful, at least to me. And I shoot both Narrative shorts and travel films. My .02, anyway.


An highly effective cooling system does not allow a stabilized sensor. That is physical not possible because of the added mass. There is a reason why the latest Canon R5 C doesn't have IBIS either.

Your best bet against micro-jitters is the Olympus Pro 12-100 f/4.0 lens. It has an amazing OIS and was my best investment ever with the P4k. Unfortunately Olympus does offer only two pro lenses so far with that kind of OIS.

I agree that it would be great to get some kind of usable AF - our best bet is through a neural network chip analyzing the camera live view. It is very unlikely that BMD will ever be able to get in-sensor AF tech like Canon has with dual pixel AF or anything like Sony has.

It is also easier for Canon and Sony as they have developed and are using their own lens mount protocol, while BMD had to reverse engineer everything for lens mount support.
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LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
--------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
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John Brawley

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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 4:52 pm

IBIS is a technical challenge.
It’s very hard to keep a sensor at a constant temperature and stabilise it.

AF is the more likely one we could see progress on, but as I understand, it would take a LOT of resources for the small dev team at the expense of developing other things.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Miami
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ricardo marty

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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 9:32 pm

John Brawley wrote:
ricardo marty wrote:Most cinema camera makers are incorporating AF So I think that BMD is probably working on solution for this if not it will probably end up as a nitch cmera for holdouts.


Ricardo Marty



Err..not really.

Sony Venice MK2 just dropped. Latest and greatest from Sony. No AF.

Arri's not likely either.

Canon aren't really a cinema camera maker if that's what you're thinking, despite having a "cinema" brand. Their lenses are more likely to be used in big boy adult narrative drama than the C series...

Panasonic have left the cinema field but no Varicam had AF either...

JB



Neither arri nor Venice cameras are what most here use. mostly.


Ricardo Marty
Resolve Studio 18, ASUS ProArt Station PD5 Workstation, 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7 8-Core (11th Gen) 64GB of 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 1TB M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD Window 11. BenQ PD3420Q, Sony FS700R, Bmp4k, Sony A6600. PreSonus AudioBox
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John Brawley

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  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Miami Florida

Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 9:36 pm

ricardo marty wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
ricardo marty wrote:Most cinema camera makers are incorporating AF So I think that BMD is probably working on solution for this if not it will probably end up as a nitch cmera for holdouts.


Ricardo Marty



Err..not really.

Sony Venice MK2 just dropped. Latest and greatest from Sony. No AF.

Arri's not likely either.

Canon aren't really a cinema camera maker if that's what you're thinking, despite having a "cinema" brand. Their lenses are more likely to be used in big boy adult narrative drama than the C series...

Panasonic have left the cinema field but no Varicam had AF either...

JB



Neither arri nor Venice cameras are what most here use. mostly.


Ricardo Marty


Semantics are important here.

You said “most cinema makers”

That’s not the case, even if that’s not what people on this forum are using.

JB
John Brawley ACS
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Currently - Miami
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Jason Boyd

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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostTue Jan 25, 2022 5:32 am

John Brawley wrote:
Sony Venice MK2 just dropped. Latest and greatest from Sony. No AF.

Arri's not likely either.

Canon aren't really a cinema camera maker if that's what you're thinking, despite having a "cinema" brand. Their lenses are more likely to be used in big boy adult narrative drama than the C series...

Panasonic have left the cinema field but no Varicam had AF either...

JB


When you can hire a 3 person camera crew then AF doesn’t matter. Most people buying sub-$10K cameras are solo shooters, no focus puller, and good AF is a godsend for the solo shooter. Blackmagic’s target market has fallen in love with AF. Adapt or die, if Blackmagic doesn’t adapt to where the market is moving then they’ll only hurt themselves.
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John Brawley

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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostTue Jan 25, 2022 6:15 pm

I’m not advocating no AF.

They already do have AF. It’s the thing that they realistically could make better with the tiny dev team that they have that can’t possibly do every request.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Miami
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ricardo marty

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Re: Foolish to buy 6K pro so close to NAB?

PostTue Jan 25, 2022 6:22 pm

John Brawley wrote:I’m not advocating no AF.

They already do have AF. It’s the thing that they realistically could make better with the tiny dev team that they have that can’t possibly do every request.

JB


They could start with a lidar system like DJI has. Or maybe do some kind of trade with their proprietary technology.


Ricardo Marty
Resolve Studio 18, ASUS ProArt Station PD5 Workstation, 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7 8-Core (11th Gen) 64GB of 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 1TB M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD Window 11. BenQ PD3420Q, Sony FS700R, Bmp4k, Sony A6600. PreSonus AudioBox

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