4.6K Still Great Resolution

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timbutt2

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4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostMon May 23, 2022 6:49 pm

So, Arri's new camera they're announcing next week is claiming to be 4.6K resolution. It's a Super 35 sensor. So I'm guessing they're keeping that 4,608 sensor width. It's claimed to be 4:3, so 4,608 x 3,164. Also, there are leaks and those leaks say 17 stops of dynamic range! Also, higher sensitivity for low light!

The leaks I have seen are very impressive. It's going to be an incredible camera.

This leads to me saying that Blackmagic was right on with their 4.6K sensor line. It was a great set of cameras that used the 4.6K sensor. I still love my URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2.

So what's next for Blackmagic? Would love to see an increase in dynamic range from them as well.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostMon May 23, 2022 8:00 pm

I love the UMP4.6G2. It's a gem and the right size sensor. I shoot with it often and won't let go of it for anything sooner. In fact, I got rid of the Komodo already. I'm not sure if DR can be an update via firmware. Maybe a UMP4.6G3 might but as with any updates to the G2, or anything with the 4.6K, I gave up wishing. :( Nevertheless, it is still a camera I love to use and keeping it.
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Chris Leutger

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostTue May 24, 2022 6:56 pm

I can't believe those losers at Arri! Don't they know S35 is dead? That the only way to get the "cinema look" is by using a large format sensor? Or at least full frame. It's like Arri is flaunting their technical and cinematographic expertise in the face of the collective hyperbole of the internet. Astonishing!
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostTue May 24, 2022 11:08 pm

Okay, the brochure has leaked for the new Alexa 35 and I can share this article: https://ymcinema.com/2022/05/24/meet-th ... as-leaked/
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Greg Lee

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 2:28 am

I’ve gone back to the 1080p image from the Micro. Quality of pixels beats quantity every time.
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Curtis Campsall

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 4:10 am

I was literally just reading that spec sheet and thinking the same thing. Large format only really took off at the top end so that cinematographers could shoot Arri and still be 4K compliant. With a super35 camera, and all the lenses they are used to they will be back to that mostly I think.

Also that magic number 4.6k is already well established for Blackmagic, Netflix approved, perhaps new firmware for the latest colour science, or perhaps a G3 update would be warranted.
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Howard Roll

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 6:15 am

Chris Leutger wrote:I can't believe those losers at Arri! Don't they know S35 is dead? That the only way to get the "cinema look" is by using a large format sensor? Or at least full frame. It's like Arri is flaunting their technical and cinematographic expertise in the face of the collective hyperbole of the internet. Astonishing!


Alexa 65, Alexa LF, Alexa Mini LF, and Signature Primes. Other than that yeah, they don't care about Full Frame, they're immune to the effects of internet hyperbole.

Good Luck
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robert Hart

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 6:26 am

QUOTE: Chris Leutger wrote:
I can't believe those losers at Arri! Don't they know S35 is dead?

I don't know about "losers". Their sub 4K sensor carried on well after 4K and higher came on the scene.

"Super35" may be around for a while yet. Even for very high-end productions, the bean-counters will have the final say and what gets by at the least unaffordable price will be chosen.

It all becomes moot if VR sends traditional 2D controlled action drama the way of live opera and broadway shows for niche holdout audiences.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 6:30 am

Howard Roll wrote:Alexa 65, Alexa LF, Alexa Mini LF, and Signature Primes. Other than that yeah, they don't care about Full Frame, they're immune to the effects of internet hyperbole.


Each of those cameras require multiples of the Alev III sensor stitched together, which has never been ideal, presumably the main advantage of this new sensor is that it is a single one with added DR, sensitivity and adequate 4K resolution to satisfy the 'Netflix' test.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 6:39 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Howard Roll wrote:Alexa 65, Alexa LF, Alexa Mini LF, and Signature Primes. Other than that yeah, they don't care about Full Frame, they're immune to the effects of internet hyperbole.


Each of those cameras require multiples of the Alev III sensor stitched together, which has never been ideal, presumably the main advantage of this new sensor is that it is a single one with added DR, sensitivity and adequate 4K resolution to satisfy the 'Netflix' test.


Right, the internet is rife with complaints about the "stitching" on the Alexa LF and Arri 65.

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Steve Fishwick

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 6:45 am

Howard Roll wrote:Right, the internet is rife with complaints about the "stitching" on the Alexa LF and Arri 65.


Nonetheless it has been evident under certain circumstances, as with Red LF sensors -I imagine it was less than ideal mainly for Arri engineers ultimately - rather than 'internet' buzz from those who have never had their hands on one.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 7:07 am

Chris Leutger wrote:I can't believe those losers at Arri! Don't they know S35 is dead? That the only way to get the "cinema look" is by using a large format sensor? Or at least full frame.

Yup, nothing beats that full frame look. That salty old codger is far more worthy of my attention than the girl he's pointing at.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 7:16 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:Nonetheless it has been evident..


Evident to whom? We're not talking about Red, are you saying that you've personally had issues with LF and 65 footage? The Arri stitching process is seamless (pun intended) to the end user.

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 7:29 am

Howard Roll wrote:Evident to whom? We're not talking about Red, are you saying that you've personally had issues with LF and 65 footage? The Arri stitching process is seamless (pun intended) to the end user.


It has been visible under certain circumstances, not critical but less than ideal, as I say. The point is 3 fold really. Arri are a profesional niche manufacturer who do not look to the internet for customer feedback, Hollywood etc. is their direct market.

Right from the start their success has been knowing that bigger pixels = greater DR, adequate readout and sensitivity and that is better than pure resolution. Their Super 35mm cameras have though fallen off the loop in that perceptual market resolution now. And so they have developed a sensor that meets both these requirements.

Since it appears to still be difficult for a number of engineering reasons to produce a single sensor at greater than Super 35 with all those qualities and higher resolution, currently, it seems they have chosen to start with a new sensor at the smaller size.

Since to my mind, it has been conclusively proven that there is no real cinematic or qualitative advantage of LF over Super 35, the only valid reason will be to have those big pixels at higher resolution, afforded by full frame and +. And so I imagine that may come to pass in the future when such a single sensor is possible to manufacture. Until then this sensor may be stitched for a larger format too, to meet that market requirement.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 7:59 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:Since to my mind, it has been conclusively proven that there is no real cinematic or qualitative advantage of LF over Super 35


Is there a cinematic or qualitative difference between S16 and S35? Why is the distinction between S35 and LF negligible when the former is plainly obvious?

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Jeffrey D Mathias

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 10:41 am

Well Super16 ain't so bad... get an URSA 12K and see for yourself. I know what I see and what I want to show... I understand the "restrictions" and do what I can to make what I want. I mastered platinum/palladium printmaking because it gave me what gelatin silver could not. Even though I enjoy a great film, I pursue a different approach. What I appreciate much is people like Grant who have a dedicated will to make this medium affordable. So yeah I can utilize the resolution, the sensor density, the wide dynamic range. I have an URSA 4.6K as well (and a pocket4K)(and had the original pocket and the big URSA)... the big difference I find is with the new sensor design. It just seems to work in the right direction for me. Yes, 4.6K is still great resolution... the 6K super16 of the 12K sensor better because resolution by itself does not do it. Neither does dynamic range by itself (will be interested to see a good image comparison of the 12K vs new Arri35.)
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 2:04 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Is there a cinematic or qualitative difference between S16 and S35? Why is the distinction between S35 and LF negligible when the former is plainly obvious?


The main perceived difference between 16mm and 35mm is grain, and the nearly grainless 35mm stocks today look more like video than film of old. So there's an argument that 16mm is more cinematic than 35mm. For some dramatic subjects, 16mm may actually be preferable.

The lower resolution of 16mm doesn't figure for audiences one way or the other but again, you could argue that a slightly defocused image is more "cinematic" than a tack sharp one (as in modern 35mm film negative stocks digitally projected without much in the way of generation loss).

Meanwhile, the measurable difference between S35mm and FF, even assuming that what you measure amounts to a noted improvement in something or other, is a good deal smaller than the gulf between 16mm and 35mm.

Hard to know where all this is going, really. What gets lost is what audiences like and/or see, and what actually suits dramatic material which isn't meant to be a literal representation of reality. Fantasy at 8K may feel more like soap opera or TV game shows than anything conceived imaginatively.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 6:10 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Okay, the brochure has leaked for the new Alexa 35 and I can share this article: https://ymcinema.com/2022/05/24/meet-th ... as-leaked/

I'm sure it's got a beautiful image. Maybe I could rent one someday. Before I do, I need to buy some media:

ARRI Codex Compact Drive 1TB $2,490.00 USD.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... e_1tb.html

Hmm… should I buy a couple of these, or should I buy a used URSA Mini Pro 12K instead?

The faster 2TB Compact Drive will probably cost even more, should I want to explore higher bitrate recording to really show it off.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostWed May 25, 2022 7:30 pm

robert Hart wrote:
I don't know about "losers". Their sub 4K sensor carried on well after 4K and higher came on the scene.

"Super35" may be around for a while yet. Even for very high-end productions, the bean-counters will have the final say and what gets by at the least unaffordable price will be chosen.


My post was a joke. Just responding to the recent round of FF/LF is the way forward articles. My next camera will likely be the 6K Pro...when I can afford it. I've seen plenty of movies shot on whatever that had everything you could want cinematically.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostThu May 26, 2022 2:03 am

I’ll be interested to see comparison between the UMP12K and the Alexa 35 4.6K. One hope I have is that dynamic range cane be a focus in the future for Blackmagic because that certainly is an important area. More so than resolution. And, Color fidelity is another important aspect.

But it does fascinate me that the new Alexa uses the same 4.6K pixel width as the UM4.6K models. Ultimately the 4.6K resolution is still a great strong option.

Maybe this will prompt Blackmagic to also finally give a firmware update to the UMPG2. Haha.


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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostSat May 28, 2022 11:18 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Is there a cinematic or qualitative difference between S16 and S35? Why is the distinction between S35 and LF negligible when the former is plainly obvious?


Yes is there? - is Leaving Las Vegas (Super 16mm) less cinematic than FF Youtubes? The difference between Super 35mm and FF is negligible, when slight adjustments are made.

Good luck with that one. :D
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostSat May 28, 2022 11:46 pm

For a 4k finish, 4.6k is great for a Bayer sensor.

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostSun May 29, 2022 12:01 am

John Brawley wrote:For a 4k finish, 4.6k is great for a Bayer sensor.

JB
I bet using that new 4.6K ARRI with the UMP 4.6K will be very nice. I’ll be curious to see how well they cut together.

However, the dynamic range improvement of the new ARRI may be significant enough that they don’t cut as well. We’ll have to see.


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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostSun May 29, 2022 6:34 am

Maybe from a software level such as a future Resolve there might be a way of getting more DR?
How does the new Arri handle high frame rates?
One thing thing that puts me off the Canon C70 is that once it goes above 60fps it loses dual gain.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostMon May 30, 2022 5:53 am

Software is already helping with DR, both by downscaling and by NR. But what else do you expect?
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostMon May 30, 2022 8:46 pm

I don’t think software can help get more dynamic range. Maybe the next generation 12K they can find a way to capture more?

The fact is that this is a new ARRI Sensor. So they are getting more dynamic range with how they built the sensor, and how they interpret the data from it. It just happens to have a similar 4.6K resolution to the URSA 4.6K line.


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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostTue May 31, 2022 1:58 pm

I've used the BMD 4.6k sensor for about 90% of my career.
The G2 is still such a beast of a camera and still has staying power with its feature set.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostTue May 31, 2022 5:22 pm

Chris Leutger wrote:I can't believe those losers at Arri! Don't they know S35 is dead? That the only way to get the "cinema look" is by using a large format sensor? Or at least full frame. It's like Arri is flaunting their technical and cinematographic expertise in the face of the collective hyperbole of the internet. Astonishing!

On the contrary, Arri's got it right. Better camera, better color science. Designs that are for the big budget films and production. S35 is not dead. It's cinema standard. It's much and very well alive. The new Arri S35 confirms it, and there are leaks that RED is on with a new 8K S35 too. Full Frame is mostly used by still photographers which is the right format for their work. However, FF has been adopted by amateurs who uses the FF DSLR for video capture and became a marketing ploy by the manufacturers to sell their FF products.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostTue May 31, 2022 5:46 pm

Adam Langdon wrote:The G2 is still such a beast of a camera and still has staying power with its feature set.

Not just because I have and love this camera, I hope there is some incentive for BMD to keep alive the G2... well a new firmware maybe with most of the requested upgrades on this forum from the last two years... followed by a G3 for features requiring new sensor and other hardware. :) More resolution is not the answer. Full frame is not the answer as well.
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4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostTue May 31, 2022 6:40 pm

You might enjoy more information about ARRI’s new Alexa Super35 camera as covered in FD Times:

https://www.fdtimes.com/issues/june-202 ... 35-report/

There are some errors and typos but a wealth of information here as the entire 96-page issue is devoted to the camera including how the camera itself has become a modern equivalent of a film lab. Lots of interviews of the development team and those first shooters that have left their impressions.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostFri Jun 03, 2022 7:16 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
Chris Leutger wrote:I can't believe those losers at Arri! Don't they know S35 is dead? That the only way to get the "cinema look" is by using a large format sensor? Or at least full frame. It's like Arri is flaunting their technical and cinematographic expertise in the face of the collective hyperbole of the internet. Astonishing!


On the contrary, Arri's got it right. Better camera, better color science. Designs that are for the big budget films and production. S35 is not dead. It's cinema standard. It's much and very well alive. The new Arri S35 confirms it, and there are leaks that RED is on with a new 8K S35 too. Full Frame is mostly used by still photographers which is the right format for their work. However, FF has been adopted by amateurs who uses the FF DSLR for video capture and became a marketing ploy by the manufacturers to sell their FF products.


I was hoping that last sentence would make people realize I was being sarcastic.
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Re: 4.6K Still Great Resolution

PostSat Jun 04, 2022 3:31 am

Chris Leutger.


If anyone can remember back to the days of the 35mm groundglass film emulators on 1/3" and 2/3" video cameras, a debate of "because I can" versus "when I should" occurred.

The signature of newby users was the paper-thin depths of field and focus errors. Baked in effects present the old "you cannot take the salt back out of the stew" dilemma.

The cost of the ARRI system naturally demands the companion investment in all the other production value-adding. The 35mm groundglass adapter users were predominantly low budget operators.

The cheaper camera will always be tainted by all the other compromises which are made to stay within a low budget as some of the dross created during the 35mm groundglass era demonstrated.

With appropriate production value adding, the old 35mm groundglass work was good. If anyone can remember back far enough, the movie "Monsters" and the actioner "Merantau" were shot with groundglass film emulators.

Antony Dod Mantle shot "Dear Wendy" with a 35mm groundglass adaptor.

Once people do their homework on what the new ARRI cameras offer, train themselves, prepare well, then maintain an organised creative discipline, then I wonder where is the real problem?

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