Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting off

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IOPvideo

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Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting off

PostWed May 11, 2022 12:15 am

I'm Shooting long form interviews on an Ursa mini 12k with the SSD recorder, recording to 1TB Sandisk 3D SSDs in 4K in 12:1 compressed BRAW at 29.97fps. I would consistently get dropped frames right around the 45 minute mark. I turned off the 'Stop recording on Drop Frame' option and during my next interview I noticed the exclamation point indicating a dropped frame right around the 45 minute mark, however it still showed that it was recording, even the timecode kept running. I copied over the file from the SSD and found it cuts off right around 45 minutes. Has this happened to anyone else? Any idea why even with the drop frame setting turned off it would still stop recording? The SSDs are on Blackmagics list of approved SSDs so its kinda weird to be getting dropped frames at all shooting normal speed 4k. Any feedback would be appreciated.
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carlomacchiavello

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Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting off

PostThu May 12, 2022 6:14 am

Some dumb questions but…
Is in bmd approved list for braw?
I see a San disk ultra 3d, have you checked is a same code?
Do you format it in camera?
Do you use it after delete from computer clips?
Have you tested before to record this kind of shooting?

12:1 is a low data rate, but I remember that San disk ssd is not fast ssd on long range with except of San disk extreme version.
Many San disk flavour are not enough fast for video recording.
I tested myself many of that and reject them also for simple Ursa Mini Pro g1 and pocket4k.




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IOPvideo

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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostThu May 12, 2022 9:10 pm

It is the same drive from BMDs list of approved drives, I have two of them and it's happening on both. The drives were also formatted in camera before each use.

Yesterday I updated the camera firmware to v7.7.2 and the issue has become intermediate. Sometimes I can record for 2+ hours without any issues. Sometimes I get dropped frames after 5-10 minutes and have to power cycle the camera to start recording again.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostSun May 15, 2022 2:41 pm

May be that San disk change memories or controller. They just did in past with others ssd and sd, they keep product code but change the memory controller and sd are readable from Blackmagic Design, Sony and other brands.


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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostThu May 26, 2022 9:37 pm

Update: I purchased another SSD to test the problem, the Samsung 870 EVO (which is also from BMDs list of approved media) and am still getting dropped frames. With both of my Sandisk Drives and this Samsung drive sometimes I can record for 2+ hours without an issue, sometimes I'll randomly get a dropped frame after 15, 45, 10, 30, or even 5 minutes. Pretty frustrating and embarrassing when you're in the middle of an interview and you look up and see your $6k camera has randomly stopped recording again.

It's weird since I'm only shooting 4k 30p with 12:1 compression the data rate should be just under 100mb/s according to Blackmagics data rate calculator and these drives have write speeds over 500mb/s. I think I can rule out the drives as being the issue at this point. I just have no way of knowing if it's a problem with the camera, a problem with the Recorder, or a problem with the locking USBC cable that connects the recorder to the camera.
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostFri May 27, 2022 4:36 pm

Sometimes I’ve found that USB-C cables are unpredictable. I had so much trouble a few months ago, I labeled the cable BAD and stopped using it. But for the last month or so I’ve been using it again without issues! My guess is your cable or cable connection is the problem. Visually check that the pins seem good; reseating them might help realign the pins. By “reseating” I just mean remove and carefully reinsert the cables at both ends.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostSat May 28, 2022 4:26 pm

I've seen this happen a couple of times, but I'm sure it's power supply brown-out. Just because the camera keeps running doesn't mean the SSD has the same operational voltage level, it could experience brown-outs sooner than the high current camera draw which underlies it. A stiff power supply, either supplied externally or a high capacity battery fully charged at the beginning of the shoot and in good condition has been the solution for me. The 12k uses a lot of power.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostSat May 28, 2022 5:08 pm

There is one other observation, I had shot (4) video clips when the camera shut off due to a discharged battery. When I plugged the SSD into the PC, there was only (1) file shown. What had happened to the others? Read on..I had some advice to run the chkdsk command with some "fix-it" parameters. Sure enough it found some errors and fixed them all, but it's way of fixing was to happily report they had been 100% fixed which sounded good, but the SSD still only showed the (1) file present. However, there was a discrepancy in the reported size of the disk and the disk space available, net of the (1) file, a significantly large discrepancy. Chkdsk had found all the missing clusters of data but still didn't reconstruct them into the original (3) missing files, but rather just marked the physical areas of the SSD as bad sectors so they would not be re-used, and called it good! To recover the (3) missing files took some 3rd party software. I used an app called "Disk Drill" to recover and reconstruct the (3) files. There are other apps for doing this as well but it's possible that the recording after receipt of the dropped frame indicator for you is actually there but scattered across the memory cells of the SSD, but are un-indexed, and thus not listed or readable. The Disk Drill program was very simple to use, and the explanation of how it works very thorough, but it cautions that recovery may not be 100%. In my case it was a full 100% recovery but they explain why it might not be successful. But the app basically searches across the expanse of the SSD for orphaned clusters and uses algorithms to reconstruct the files. So it's a good idea, your call if you want to go to the trouble, to deep format the SSD before use (not in camera) but using Windows, so that all the data areas are physically written with zeros, and then follow this up with an in-camera format for the indexing of the root directory/fat. An in-camera format does not overwrite the data areas, only the table that indexes the contents. That's why it's very fast and a deep format in Windows is very slow.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostSun May 29, 2022 12:24 am

Tom Roper wrote:I've seen this happen a couple of times, but I'm sure it's power supply brown-out. Just because the camera keeps running doesn't mean the SSD has the same operational voltage level, it could experience brown-outs sooner than the high current camera draw which underlies it. A stiff power supply, either supplied externally or a high capacity battery fully charged at the beginning of the shoot and in good condition has been the solution for me. The 12k uses a lot of power.


I don't know if it's a power issue as I did some interviews on batteries and others on AC power and still had the issue happen regardless. Randomly after 15, 30, 45, or even 90 minutes all of a sudden I get the dropped frame warning and have to reboot the camera. I do get a buzzing sound in my audio when i'm on AC power so I was going off of batteries at first to prevent that. When it became clear that there wasn't an easy fix for this issue I started running my audio into my pocket 4k instead and then just running the 12k off of AC power.

Initially the Samsung EVO drive worked great, I got through a 2 hour interview without any dropped frames and so I thought the problem had been solved. The next day however I had 3 drops during a 2 hour interview. Im recording in a studio and so nothing had been moved or unplugged or anything. Just turn the camera off for the night, come back the next day, power it on, get back to filming.

I may just have to bite the bullet and send it in to BMD for them to inspect and see if they can diagnose the issue.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostSun May 29, 2022 3:26 am

I'm not aware of my U12K accepting AC power. I think you mean the DC 4 pin XLR connector. If there was hum it would have to be on the DC line which would be very unusual for that to originate from the camera. Of course, I'm speculating but if BMD does not find a problem they are going to return the camera to you without fixing anything leaving you unhappy if there is still a problem. So I'd want to make sure I didn't have a ground loop between the DC power source and something like an external monitor. If it were me I'd also try removing the SSD recorder and either using CFast 2.0 cards or a SanDisk 2TB Extreme PRO Portable SSD - Up to 2000MB/s - USB-C, USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 - External Solid State Drive - SDSSDE81-2T00-G25 plugged into the USB-C port.

I've experienced dropped frames that will cause the recording to stop (if selected), but I've also experienced the stops caused by voltage brown out. In the case of the former, I could resume recording immediately but in the case of the latter, it would look as if the recording did not stop even when showing the exclamation point because the timecode was still incrementing. To restart recording from this condition I would have to reboot the camera.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostSun May 29, 2022 1:19 pm

Please do not use a sandisk SSD with 520 MB/s for 12k recording. Dual Cfast Card recording or use a Micron 7300 with the BMD SSD Recorder to do this job plus enough room for speed for higher frame-rates and quality options.
Cameras: BM Ursa Mini Pro 12k (BRAW), BMPCC 6k (BRAW), Ronin 4D (PRO RES RAW)
Computers: MacPro 7.1 128 GB VRAM
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostMon May 30, 2022 4:39 am

nicowieditz wrote:Please do not use a sandisk SSD with 520 MB/s for 12k recording. Dual Cfast Card recording or use a Micron 7300 with the BMD SSD Recorder to do this job plus enough room for speed for higher frame-rates and quality options.



Well, I'm not recording in 12k. I'm recording 4k 30p with 12:1 compression. Per BMDs data rate calculator, thats around 100 mb/s.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostMon May 30, 2022 4:48 am

Tom Roper wrote:I'm not aware of my U12K accepting AC power. I think you mean the DC 4 pin XLR connector. If there was hum it would have to be on the DC line which would be very unusual for that to originate from the camera. Of course, I'm speculating but if BMD does not find a problem they are going to return the camera to you without fixing anything leaving you unhappy if there is still a problem. So I'd want to make sure I didn't have a ground loop between the DC power source and something like an external monitor. If it were me I'd also try removing the SSD recorder and either using CFast 2.0 cards or a SanDisk 2TB Extreme PRO Portable SSD - Up to 2000MB/s - USB-C, USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 - External Solid State Drive - SDSSDE81-2T00-G25 plugged into the USB-C port.

I've experienced dropped frames that will cause the recording to stop (if selected), but I've also experienced the stops caused by voltage brown out. In the case of the former, I could resume recording immediately but in the case of the latter, it would look as if the recording did not stop even when showing the exclamation point because the timecode was still incrementing. To restart recording from this condition I would have to reboot the camera.


Sorry, yeah I meant the 4 pin XLR power. I had seen other people mention the issue with the hum and suggested that a power conditioner could fix the issue. I don't have one handy so it was easier to just go off of batteries. Same thing happened on my pocket cam, plugged into the wall I get a buzzing/humming sound in my audio, going off of batteries, no buz.

With my Ursa I'm having to power cycle every time I get a dropped frame. I'll get the warning, try to press record again, nothing happens, and I have to power cycle. When I turned off the "Stop rec on drop frame" option It gave me the warning, kept running timecode, gave every indication that it was still recording, then when I opened the file afterwards I found it had cut off when the dropped frame happened. Since I'm having to reboot the camera every time it may be a power issue given what you are saying, but it's weird that it would happen both on batteries and plugged into the wall.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostMon May 30, 2022 4:50 am

IOPvideo wrote:
nicowieditz wrote:Please do not use a sandisk SSD with 520 MB/s for 12k recording. Dual Cfast Card recording or use a Micron 7300 with the BMD SSD Recorder to do this job plus enough room for speed for higher frame-rates and quality options.



Well, I'm not recording in 12k. I'm recording 4k 30p with 12:1 compression. Per BMDs data rate calculator, thats around 100 mb/s.



OK, for that recording I use a Sandisk Ultra 3D SSD 4TB or a Samsung 2 TB 860 EVO over the BMD SSD Recorder. For the BMD SSD Recorder it is necessary to work with the latest Firmware. That works perfect till 8:1 compression.

I did not try to put the SSD's directly on the USB-C Port.

Sometimes I got some drops when I filmed inside and outside without automatic Light Balance. Then it also stopped while the Drop-out function was off. Don't know why, but this happens to me, but just sometimes, not all the time.
Cameras: BM Ursa Mini Pro 12k (BRAW), BMPCC 6k (BRAW), Ronin 4D (PRO RES RAW)
Computers: MacPro 7.1 128 GB VRAM
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostThu Jun 02, 2022 10:25 pm

So after more testing here is what I've found.

I bypassed the SSD recorder and just recorded straight to the Samsung T5 drives i'm using for my Pocket cam. I was able to record for 2 hours straight without any dropped frames. I even used the locking USB-C cable that comes with the SSD recorder just to make sure that wasn't the issue. So it would seem that the issue must either be with all 3 of my SSDs, which all came from BMDs list of approved media, or it's an issue with the SSD recorder itself.

Has anyone else had an issue with the SSD recorder? I don't believe there's firmware for the SSD recorder unless I'm mistaken.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostThu Jun 02, 2022 10:35 pm

Please check the firmware of the ssd recorder. After updating firmware I had no more issues with the recorder.
Cameras: BM Ursa Mini Pro 12k (BRAW), BMPCC 6k (BRAW), Ronin 4D (PRO RES RAW)
Computers: MacPro 7.1 128 GB VRAM
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostFri Jun 03, 2022 2:32 am

nicowieditz wrote:Please check the firmware of the ssd recorder. After updating firmware I had no more issues with the recorder.


Is there firmware just for the SSD recorder? Ursa is on 7.7.2. When I search the support page for the SSD Recorder I get the 7.8 Beta and the BRAW 2.4 update. But I haven't seen any firmware for just the SSD recorder itself.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostFri Jun 03, 2022 4:02 am

Yes, the newest firmware version of the SSD Recorder is 1.3 and from the camera itself 7.7.2.

For updating the SSD Recorder, please use the usb-C Port of the SSD Recorder and do not forget to switch on the camera for powering the ssd recorder.

Hopefully, your issues are gone after updating.
Cameras: BM Ursa Mini Pro 12k (BRAW), BMPCC 6k (BRAW), Ronin 4D (PRO RES RAW)
Computers: MacPro 7.1 128 GB VRAM
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostMon Jun 06, 2022 5:03 am

Anyway never allow to chkdsk to touch your disk, it’s the main problem of exfat and ntfs disk of last twenty years. It was born for fat16, and mess just fat32 disk. Damage most of file over certain size .


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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostSat Jan 07, 2023 7:30 pm

nicowieditz wrote:Yes, the newest firmware version of the SSD Recorder is 1.3 and from the camera itself 7.7.2.

For updating the SSD Recorder, please use the usb-C Port of the SSD Recorder and do not forget to switch on the camera for powering the ssd recorder.

Hopefully, your issues are gone after updating.


I'm chiming in to express that I am also experiencing the same issue of dropped frames using the SSD recorder even with the latest firmware to the Ursa 12K body and the SSD recorder. After long record times using the SSD recorder, I'm getting dropped frames and the SSD drive and or the recorder freezes, I then have to turn the camera off and on to record again to the SSD recorder. Very much not ideal for Doc work which is why I purchased the recorder in the first place.

The SSDs I own are approved off the Blackmagic recommended list (The Samsung 860 EVO and Western Digital WD Blue 3D NAND 1TB). Not sure what I can do to solve this issue, I find myself running tests on these approved SSD's but still encounter dropped frames over long record times. I'm curious if its the recorder itself overheating and perhaps throttling the SSD write speed? I don't know if that is even possible however the recorder does get warm so it leads me to believe that. I wonder if that is something BMD can fix in a firmware update.
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostMon Jan 09, 2023 11:00 pm

Hi Billy,

it depends on the quality of the image and what the sensor needs to capture. It happens with very bright and detailed images that faster write speeds are needed to capture the data.

The Samsung 860 EVO usually manages a real and sustained write speed of 470 MB/s.

I have had pretty good experiences with the Samsung T7 2TB versus the 4TB Samsung 860, which I actually only use on the 6k now.

While many users rant about the Samsung T7, I can't find any problems.

For the T7, it's best to use a small Velcro surface on the camera body. Order it on Amazon and try it out and if it doesn't work, send it back, but I think you'll get much better results.

If all else fails, you'll have to work with CF cards in dual mode, which are super fast in this mode and can handle almost everything, or you'll have to go for a U2 SSD, but that's very expensive to buy.

Cheers, Nico.


BTW.

Please also check the USB-C cable from BM that connects to the SSD-Recorder, which breaks very quickly. I had already received the third cable from BM as a replacement, but have now used a very short Thunderbolt cable, since then everything runs perfectly. I have the feeling that the Thunderbolt cables are more reliable in data throughput. But that's just a feeling, no prove.
Cameras: BM Ursa Mini Pro 12k (BRAW), BMPCC 6k (BRAW), Ronin 4D (PRO RES RAW)
Computers: MacPro 7.1 128 GB VRAM
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Re: Ursa 12k Stopped Rec on dropped frame even when setting

PostSat May 06, 2023 4:01 pm

nicowieditz wrote:Hi Billy,

I had already received the third cable from BM as a replacement, but have now used a very short Thunderbolt cable, since then everything runs perfectly. I have the feeling that the Thunderbolt cables are more reliable in data throughput. But that's just a feeling, no prove.


What cable did you end up replacing it with? I'm loooking for one that has a screw. Some have suggested an angle bird.

https://www.amazon.com/Angelbird-50cm-USB-3-2-Cable/dp/B07RSVF2WR

Is there a place to buy a 12k ss enclosure cable with a screw?

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