Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

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Avi Klibansky

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Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 8:32 pm

Since the Pocket cameras have a gyro in them, I think I am speaking on behalf of many users when I ask that it'll be possible in a future update to extract the gyro data from the camera for the purpose of stabilizing the files in third party software. Or even have the gyro data burn into the files.
Sony cameras have the option to do this using Sony's Catalyst software. GoPro cameras have the option to do this using GoPro's Reelsteady software.
There's no reason we won't be able to use Pocket 4K/6K/PRO gyro data to stabilize in software like Gyroflow for example. (Or maybe even in a future version of DaVinci Resolve...?)

I would love to see who else is interested in this option, and I hope it can convince Blackmagic to add this option in a future update!
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Pavel Rybakov

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 2:43 pm

*UP*
Absolutely agreed. It will be amazing to use gyro for stabilizing video and to correct rolling shutter.
https://vimeo.com/nrggroup
...and sorry for my english =)
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 3:51 pm

Guys, I know this would be a very nice feature.

But please let's not carry over facebook group habits into this forum...
Before posting, please do some research over the forum as this topic has already been discussed in length and there are many reasons why this is more complicated than you think and why BMD has not made use of the gyro data yet.

See here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=106937
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
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Avi Klibansky

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostThu Aug 19, 2021 4:44 pm

I read it, and I still think it's required. These are my reasons -

I travel a lot, and when you hike to 2000+ meters mountains, or several days track, you can't bring a gimble with you.
So the option to shoot handheld with the pocket 4k and still get well-stabilized footage with gyro data, is the best option for travelers. I prefer to shoot with a higher shutter and add a motion blur in post, than having unusable shaky footage with a 180-degree shutter.
Blackmagic makes users like me consider Sony cameras, only because of this feature (and I hate Sony cameras - hate the colors, hate the menus etc.) I want to be able to continue using my Pocket 4K on my travels.
Again - these are my reasons - but I'm sure there are much more reasons for that from other users.

I say - Blackmagic should allow this feature in a future update and let us - the users - make the choice, because having the choice is better than not having it.
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Straw Hat Sam

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostThu Aug 19, 2021 6:03 pm

Yes I think writing gyro data to clip metadata is essential for improving access to superior stabilization for BMPCC footage. Elvin Chen, the developer of Gyroflow asked me about the P4K, and what he needs is this gyro data to be written into the metadata or in some kind of folder associated with each clip. He has already done some amazing things with his stabilization software that will soon surpass other tools like SteadXP, Sony Catalyst, and optical stabilization.

SteadXP is awful to work with, both the owner and the product itself. The film community (especially the FPV drone community) needs an alternative gyro-based stabilization and this will only be possible if this is implemented.
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Paulmakesthings

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostFri Aug 20, 2021 1:59 am

This would be amazing and I would assume relatively easy to implement. Gyroflow is headed in an extremely positive direction especially with potentially becoming an OFX plugin for use inside resolve. If BMD wants to capture a whole new market for their cameras providing gyro Metadata is a solid step towards making it the most popular specialty camera (Fpv etc).

Paul
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DrewDronesFPV

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostFri Aug 20, 2021 4:26 am

If the information is there and BMPCC can easily make it accessible, it would be ridiculous to not let users have access to that.

If BMPCC want to stay on top, make it available for all of us!

Save Le Pigeon as well!
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lee_stevenson

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostFri Aug 20, 2021 7:51 am

Firstly, I had a read of the other forum. I can see how this may not be suitable for every application, however in the event of drone use, this could be a valuable tool to have available.
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slugman

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostFri Aug 20, 2021 4:54 pm

This functionality would be super useful. I'm flying the BMPCC on an X8 and have to capture gyro data on the flight controller. It runs out of space pretty quickly, and then tracing those gyro data files to video clips is another nightmare.

Never mind that when the BMPCC isn't on the X8, I don't have any gyro data at all.
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javier forza

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostSat Aug 21, 2021 1:25 am

+1
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elvinc

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostSat Aug 21, 2021 2:28 am

Hi! Gyroflow dev here. While I haven't used blackmagic gear personally, I've been trying to add support for as many sources of motion data as possible, which allows for more hardware flexibility and post processing possibilities, especially since the program is open source. As the BMPCC has the sensor hardware already, it could certainly be neat to support it in the future if IMU logging is enabled.

Furthermore, I have a proof of concept openfx resolve plugin, which when finished, will be able to apply the relevant gyro-based image stabilization steps in the editor without re-encoding the footage.

If any blackmagic people are reading this, here are some tips/info which could be handy for implementing gyro data logging successfully. Most of it is based on some ongoing collaboration with an action camera manufacturer, so things might differ for a larger setup.

* Gyro logging rate of at least 200 Hz captures all the motion data we're interested in. The required logging rate may increase depending on how the well the data is processed internally due to the potential of aliasing (e.g. 500 Hz may be required if noise is particularly bad). Accelerometer (and magnetometer) rates can be lower, but it might also be simpler to log everything at the same rate.

* Low pass filter to remove sensor noise/vibrations above 100 Hz. This is both to meet the Nyquist criteria, but also to filter some of the high frequency vibrations encounted on drones if using higher sampling rates. Typically the hardware low pass filter available in MEMS sensors should do, but some have trouble with particularly strong vibrations.

* Gyro full scale of +/- 1000 degrees per second or +/- 2000 dps. Seems pretty fast, but a drone can easily max out the scale at +/- 500 dps.

Since the BRAW format supports per frame metadata, one possibility could be "batching" multiple log samples per frame to get a higher effective sampling rate.

A totally different approach could be internally processing the raw gyro/acceleration/magnetometer in order to calculate the absolute orientation through sensor fusion, or a relative orientation from gyro integration alone. This can then be saved as a quaternion on a frame-by-frame basis. The advantage here is the reduced amount of metadata, but requires taking any data processing delays into account in order to perfectly synchronize the orientations. Furthermore, this wouldn't work well rolling shutter correction in the future, which requires inter-frame motion data.

Hopefully this was useful, or at least interesting. Recently many new cameras are getting gyro logging support, so it could be cool to see the feature on a proper cinema camera. As mentioned elsewhere, this can potentially be useful for VFX applications depending on orientation accuracy requirements, but at the very least post stabilization works
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javier forza

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostTue Sep 07, 2021 6:50 am

This could be amazing and sounds possible!
Come on Blackmagic Team!
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Likeable Media

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostMon Oct 04, 2021 9:22 pm

Elvin, the work you are doing on Gyroflow is fantastic. I've used your latest Beta release to combine gyro data from GoPro with BMPCC 4K footage.


Are you able to read the BMPCC gyro data in the same way that you can read GoPro gyro data? Do you have any plans to add the BMPCC as a gyro source in a future beta release of Gyroflow? That would be awesome!

*** Blackmagic Design heard the call and has responeded today with the release of an update for the Pocket cameras to support gyro logging ***
Last edited by Likeable Media on Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tom Donalek

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostSun Oct 10, 2021 2:19 am

Bolting a GoPro to a BMPCC for the gyro data is an amazing bodge - very cool that it works! Of course, recording gyro data directly inside the BM camera would be ideal. But something that would be better for the Gopro-bolted-on approach would be if the software could output the stabilization pan/warp/zoom information in a format that could be imported into Resolve so that you could maintain a B Raw workflow.
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herbertu

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostWed Jan 05, 2022 2:23 pm

@elvinc thank you for your awesome work with gyroflow, looking forward to the resolve plugin :shock:
@BlackMagic please add that functionality... this is so much needed. i can add external loggers... but why when the workflow could be so much more easy.
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Sandro Circi

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostWed Feb 02, 2022 11:29 pm

I would like to add one more scenario. Mixed reality.

Since I started with photogrammetry some of my clients started asking if I could do some mixed reality production. While I could go the traditional route, extrapolating camera movement from video frames, this takes too much time and adds complexity that my team isn't able to withstand for now. Not to mention that any live production is excluded without the help of other tracking system.

While it's ease to understand that IMU data isn't enough for a good mixed reality stage, everything could be reinforced by utilizing additional printable targets.
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JO Piragibe

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostFri Mar 25, 2022 3:29 pm

Yes this is would be really nice I use standcam and etc but sometimes would be helpfull for sure, if there is a way and the dev is trying to help why not? I hope the Guys from blackmagic could do something or just tell us there is no way on the hardware to use the data?

Best,
Jolberto
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John Brawley

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostSun Mar 27, 2022 7:39 pm

Avi Klibansky wrote:Since the Pocket cameras have a gyro in them, I think I am speaking on behalf of many users when I ask that it'll be possible in a future update to extract the gyro data from the camera for the purpose of stabilizing the files in third party software.



It's been asked for many many times on this forum already. Search out the previous threads.

They originally put this into the cameras for this purpose....but

As I understand, it doesn't work *accurately* enough to be of any use....yet.... Remember BMD make Fusion as well as Resolve. This was the intended use. But in actual real world use it's not functional enough *yet*....

I'm sure when they can make it work to their own satisfaction and standards, you'll see it on current cameras or maybe on newer unreleased cameras....

You have to remember a lot of things have to line up for this to work like this between the post and camera side of things...

JB
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Pavel Rybakov

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostFri Jun 24, 2022 9:25 am

HAHA! THANK YOU BMD! You're THE BEST!
https://vimeo.com/nrggroup
...and sorry for my english =)
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felixgeen

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostSat Jun 25, 2022 1:29 am

So does anyone know how we can use the gyro data for some creative stuff? I would like to know if I can convert the Gyro data to an FBX camera and see how it looks (even if its just pitch/yaw/roll data). It would be useful for a basic camera solve when doing background/sky replacement on tripod shots for example. It would be very useful for basic camera tracking.
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javier forza

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Re: Gyro data for the Pocket 4K/6K/PRO

PostSun Jun 26, 2022 11:15 pm

@elvinc

Reading your interesting comment, I want to ask you if helps to gyro data add the focal length in a sub menu to the camera. As Sony Alpha menu. That could help when you use manual lenses, without any comunication.

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