12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

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12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 3:58 pm

Funny how we all talk about the URSA Mini Pro 12K having a lot of resolution for Super 35mm. Yet, 65mm Film is scanned at 12K uncompressed. That's 500 MB per frame, 11.72 GB per second, 703.12 GB per minute, and 41.20 TB per hour.

So, I'm wondering what would 65mm Sensor Size URSA end up being resolution wise using the 12K sensor from Blackmagic? I already did the math for the IMAX 15-perf size and got 31,822 px by 22,055 px. That means that the height for the IMAX would be the same as the width for 65mm 5-perf. So 65mm URSA 22K!

Oh, I like that. Now, I'm going with the original URSA body size to house this sensor. It makes the most sense. And, this is a beast of sensor I'd love to see. It would be more specialty for sure. But wouldn't it be incredible?!

And, with BlackmagicRAW the file sizes might be a bit more manageable. But you're going to need really fast media to store that data. Either fast SSDs or CFExpress. With the URSA Size you could do SSDs that get 2,000 MB/s Write Speed. Still, is that fast enough? Uncompressed 12K is after all 500 MB per frame! So that would only be 4 frames of uncompressed 12K with that 2,000 MB/s SSD.

Either way, just for some fun thought I'd share this all. Who else would love to see Blackmagic tackle a large sensor like a 65mm?
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 4:27 pm

You can basically divide the duration by 1/4 and get a ballpark number. Even at 22K, Braw 5:1 is substantially smaller than uncompressed 12K. An hour of 22K Braw 5:1 would sit around ~8TB.

Good Luck

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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 5:23 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Who else would love to see Blackmagic tackle a large sensor like a 65mm?


There's a huge barrier for BMD to make a camera sensor this large....and it's nothing to do with BMD....

Would this camera even be a success? Imagine it's a $10K body like the first 12K body. It's a 65mm sensor with what mount....what lenses are you putting on it?

Serious questions....

What lenses would you use for a camera that would cover a sensor that large? It needs an image circle of at least 60mm...

What zooms can you use?

What mount do you use...?

I can think of only a few options, basically adapted medium format primes, and exactly one (maybe) zoom, also an adapted medium format lens or expensive rental only lenses like Arri DNA primes of PV70 mount Panavision lenses, who probably won't rent lenses only anyway, even if you could afford them...!

The only "new" cinema lens options are 5 figures+ each lens and primes only...and from a less known vendor.

There's not a lot of options out there, especially for the kind of user base BMD caters towards.

How could this camera really succeed if they could deliver what you ask?

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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 6:34 pm

Don’t forget to budget 300-500 a day for an amazing ac who can keep the image in focus and maybe 30k for lights to help that, plus a dit and a lab to help with that much footage… and I think at that point a 10k camera (if it was possible) becomes a moot point

It sounds cool but I can’t imagine anyone making a product like that for less than 50k because of the market- your customers with that kind of crew requirements probably aren’t interested in saving money on camera rental to that degree
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 7:08 pm

John Brawley wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:Who else would love to see Blackmagic tackle a large sensor like a 65mm?


There's a huge barrier for BMD to make a camera sensor this large....and it's nothing to do with BMD....

Would this camera even be a success? Imagine it's a $10K body like the first 12K body. It's a 65mm sensor with what mount....what lenses are you putting on it?

Serious questions....

What lenses would you use for a camera that would cover a sensor that large? It needs an image circle of at least 60mm...

What zooms can you use?

What mount do you use...?

I can think of only a few options, basically adapted medium format primes, and exactly one (maybe) zoom, also an adapted medium format lens or expensive rental only lenses like Arri DNA primes of PV70 mount Panavision lenses, who probably won't rent lenses only anyway, even if you could afford them...!

The only "new" cinema lens options are 5 figures+ each lens and primes only...and from a less known vendor.

There's not a lot of options out there, especially for the kind of user base BMD caters towards.

How could this camera really succeed if they could deliver what you ask?

JB

Part of this is for fun. At the same time; Why can't Blackmagic Design design such a camera as a pet project and make it a rental only item? Could they possibly entice big productions and filmmakers with it?

The video intrigued me because of what they were doing with 12K scans of 65mm film. And, it inspired me to dream about what Blackmagic could do with their sensor. Arri made a 65mm sensor back in 2014/2015 that stitched three Alexa sensors together to achieve the size. They made it a rental only camera. Why can't Blackmagic do something similar?

I know you ask who this would be marketed towards, and my answer is higher end productions. Why not take on Arri and provide an amazing option for filmmakers with a sensor that can achieve such amazing heights?
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 7:12 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Part of this is for fun.


I'm in this for fun too. I'm asking a serious question because I'd love to know how others would see this camera being used....

timbutt2 wrote:

At the same time; Why can't Blackmagic Design design such a camera as a pet project and make it a rental only item? Could they possibly entice big productions and filmmakers with it?



They wouldn't make money from it and it would cost too much to run. You're competing with Arri (rental) and Panavision who have a huge amount of overhead and service. Hard to compete with that.


timbutt2 wrote:I know you ask who this would be marketed towards, and my answer is higher end productions. Why not take on Arri and provide an amazing option for filmmakers with a sensor that can achieve such amazing heights?



OK so how could BMD unlock this market ? The lenses are the key....

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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 7:31 pm

John Brawley wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:Part of this is for fun.


I'm in this for fun too. I'm asking a serious question because I'd love to know how others would see this camera being used....

timbutt2 wrote:

At the same time; Why can't Blackmagic Design design such a camera as a pet project and make it a rental only item? Could they possibly entice big productions and filmmakers with it?



They wouldn't make money from it and it would cost too much to run. You're competing with Arri (rental) and Panavision who have a huge amount of overhead and service. Hard to compete with that.


timbutt2 wrote:I know you ask who this would be marketed towards, and my answer is higher end productions. Why not take on Arri and provide an amazing option for filmmakers with a sensor that can achieve such amazing heights?



OK so how could BMD unlock this market ? The lenses are the key....

JB

Yeah, it's tough to compete with stalwarts like Arri and Panavision. And, both of them have the lenses. Especially since those lenses have been used for productions that shot on 65mm film.

Also, I'll include below the gorgeous video that Cinelab posted of those 12K 65mm scans.


As the video states at the end the Arriflex 765 was used as a rental from Arri. No lenses were listed.

Maybe Blackmagic could also work with one of those companies to provide the sensor tech. They design the RGBW 65mm Sensor with the BMD Color Science to Panavision Bodies. Use the amazing Blackmagic UI OS and BRAW. Similar to the way Red partnered with Panavision for the Panavision Millennium DXL2. Then they could use the Panavision Primo 70 lenses on it.

Or, Blackmagic could partner with a lens manufacturer like Sigma to create some large format lenses that can cover the 65mm size. The potential is there. And, I'm sure a lens manufacturer keen to entice larger productions would love to have the opportunity to try their hand in making such lenses.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 12:54 am

John Brawley wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:Who else would love to see Blackmagic tackle a large sensor like a 65mm?


There's a huge barrier for BMD to make a camera sensor this large....and it's nothing to do with BMD....

Would this camera even be a success? Imagine it's a $10K body like the first 12K body. It's a 65mm sensor with what mount....what lenses are you putting on it?

Serious questions....

What lenses would you use for a camera that would cover a sensor that large? It needs an image circle of at least 60mm...

What zooms can you use?

What mount do you use...?

I can think of only a few options, basically adapted medium format primes, and exactly one (maybe) zoom, also an adapted medium format lens or expensive rental only lenses like Arri DNA primes of PV70 mount Panavision lenses, who probably won't rent lenses only anyway, even if you could afford them...!

JB


Most of IMAX lenses were adapted Medium Format. The Dark Knight used Mamiya Sektor C lenses, for instance. They don't cost that much at all if you get them in photography form. I bought a set of Sektor C 45mm, 80mm 2.8, and 150mm for $500.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 1:27 am

ShaheedMalik wrote:Most of IMAX lenses were adapted Medium Format. The Dark Knight used Mamiya Sektor C lenses, for instance. They don't cost that much at all if you get them in photography form. I bought a set of Sektor C 45mm, 80mm 2.8, and 150mm for $500.

I was under the impression that The Dark Knight used Hasselblad lenses for the IMAX cameras: https://theasc.com/ac_magazine/July2008 ... ESAFnmNxd0

The production carried four medium-format Hasselblad lenses: 50mm, 80mm, 110mm and 150mm. Pfister and Nolan favored the 50mm and, less often, the 80mm. As the shoot went on, says Hall, the filmmakers became bolder about using the 110mm.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 3:01 am

timbutt2 wrote:
ShaheedMalik wrote:Most of IMAX lenses were adapted Medium Format. The Dark Knight used Mamiya Sektor C lenses, for instance. They don't cost that much at all if you get them in photography form. I bought a set of Sektor C 45mm, 80mm 2.8, and 150mm for $500.

I was under the impression that The Dark Knight used Hasselblad lenses for the IMAX cameras: https://theasc.com/ac_magazine/July2008 ... ESAFnmNxd0

The production carried four medium-format Hasselblad lenses: 50mm, 80mm, 110mm and 150mm. Pfister and Nolan favored the 50mm and, less often, the 80mm. As the shoot went on, says Hall, the filmmakers became bolder about using the 110mm.


The IMAX night portions of The Dark Knight were filmed using the Mamiya Sektor C 80mm F1.9. This lens was rehoused again to shoot the the non-IMAX portions of The Dark Knight Rises. Here is the The Dark Knight Rises article on it.
https://theasc.com/ac_magazine/August20 ... page1.html

During prep, the filmmakers approached Imax with a few requests based on their prior experience with the technology. Pfister recalls, “I asked Mike Hendriks [director of Imax’s camera department] if he would be open to involving Panavision technicians, specifically [optical engineer] Dan Sasaki, in improving some lenses and creating a new viewfinder.”

The cinematographer took Sasaki an 80mm T2 Mamiya lens that Imax had adapted for The Dark Knight and a 50mm T2.5 medium-format still lens. “In the case of the 80mm, we discarded the Imax mechanics and replaced them with a cine-style Panavision transport,” explains Sasaki. “Also, we had to rebuild the entire lens head so it could accommodate an iris mechanism, because the original Imax lens conversion did not have a variable iris mechanism. The 50mm T2.5 conversion was a little different. We basically had to rehouse a majority of the lens elements into an assembly that we could adapt into a more stable lens transport. This mechanical system was very similar to the mechanical system used on the 80mm lens.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 3:07 am

Tim this is where I was leading you.

It’s basically blad or Mamiya lenses.

Arri DNAs are these lenses.

These lenses are BOTH what are used for imax and camera 65.

Masterbuilt are making some lenses now that supposedly cover 65 as well.

White point optics make a couple of lenses too.

Not a lot of choice though is there…

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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 3:12 am

John Brawley wrote:Tim this is where I was leading you.

It’s basically blad or Mamiya lenses.

Arri DNAs are these lenses.

These lenses are BOTH what are used for imax and camera 65.

Masterbuilt are making some lenses now that supposedly cover 65 as well.

White point optics make a couple of lenses too.

Not a lot of choice though is there…

JB


Zeiss has Medium Format lenses as well. Also, Mir, Jupiter.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 3:29 am

ShaheedMalik wrote:
Zeiss has Medium Format lenses as well. Also, Mir, Jupiter.


But not exactly new, modern designs or fast.

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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 3:38 am

John Brawley wrote:
ShaheedMalik wrote:
Zeiss has Medium Format lenses as well. Also, Mir, Jupiter.


But not exactly new, modern designs or fast.

JB


I use mine on my Pocket 6k, and I have found that what we generally think are is fast is around F2 but because the amount of light these lenses bring in a F4 on a Medium Format lens is like a F2-2.8 on a regular Super 35. These lenses bring in a lot of light. Most of the time I am stopping down to F4 on them anyway.

Most of "new" lenses are just the same tried and true designs except they added autofocus. It's hard to redefine a wheel. Those Zeiss, Mir, and Jupiter lenses are for 6x6 format which is even bigger than M645.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 5:37 am

timbutt2 wrote:Arri made a 65mm sensor back in 2014/2015 that stitched three Alexa sensors together to achieve the size. They made it a rental only camera. Why can't Blackmagic do something similar?
If BMD is going to follow ARRI’s lead, I’d much prefer that BMD emulate the 17 stop dynamic range of the Alexa 35, rather than to simply make the sensor bigger just for the sake of it.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 9:49 am

BM's market space is low-cost product intended to endure to obsolescence and probably not much past that. Whilst BM's market space be be a relative niche compared to the mass manufacture by other players, the 65mm IMAX zone may be too niche even for BM with two other competitors already in that space.

For the likes of underfunded mortals like myself, I suspect the solution may be focal reducers best suited for conveying the 65mm image to the URSA 12K sensor. A groundglass relay exercise was created some years back in the form of the "Coatwolf" camera which was limited then to the 2K sensor tech of a prototype SI2K.

I think that it also went a little more extreme with relay of a plate camera image. With 5 micron groundglass texture grinds, 2K from a near fullframe still 135 image was about as good as I could achieve when fine-tuning a Letus Extreme adaptor.

At a wild guess, from 65mm via groundglass relay, you might achieve 4K which will yield the aesthetic but not the resolution. You would do better with a modified boss-screen disk which I tried but getting that wax layer uniformly dense between two disks affordably would be a challenge.

Aside from the variable density flicker, the image was sweeter than a 5 micron groundglass. Boss-screen tech is vulnerable in hot environments.

After dressing spinning groundglasses of 125mm diameter from cut disks supplied by Ohara in Japan, breaking more than one of them trying and one in use, I am not about to go there again with anything bigger though it would surely work well for 65mm.

If affordable 65mm focal reducers (Speedboosters) get up, we may be experience a deju-vu to the old "not because you should but because you can" debate which accompanied the groundglass adaptors and the later emergence of the Red One. Owning a RED automatically made you into a DP right?.

For affordability in the BM ecosystem, only a focal reducer will achieve anywhere near the improved resolution. Brian Caldwell. Are you busy right now?? Within the RED camp, I understand a medium format focal reducer has been attempted. I imagine Luca of Lucadaptors may be tempted to try one for the BM Ursa 12K.
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12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 12:51 pm

timbutt2 wrote:… I already did the math for the IMAX 15-perf size and got 31,822 px by 22,055 px…


If you’re talking about 65mm square for IMAX, based on the UMP12K sensor design, then you would be working with 29536x29536 = 872,375,296 photosites. More than 12x the volume of the 12K camera. Do you know of any camera/recorder that would handle that for compressed lossless cinema recording (somebody is going to insist it needs 60fps)? I don’t think 12:1 is lossless but that might be the best you would get. Perhaps up to 8GB/s compressed.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 9:22 pm

I’m pretty sure that 15-Perf IMAX comes to 1.44:1 aspect ratio when projected. I think the capture of it is 1.36:1 if PCAM’s info is right.

I went off the Millimeters given for the standard size of 15-Perf IMAX of 70mm by 48.5mm. That size comes to 1.44:1 aspect ratio.


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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 9:33 pm

timbutt2 wrote:I’m pretty sure that 15-Perf IMAX comes to 1.44:1 aspect ratio when projected. I think the capture of it is 1.36:1 if PCAM’s info is right.

I went off the Millimeters given for the standard size of 15-Perf IMAX of 70mm by 48.5mm. That size comes to 1.44:1 aspect ratio.


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Per Wiki:
"IMAX is a proprietary system of high-resolution cameras, film formats, film projectors, and theaters known for having very large screens with a tall aspect ratio (approximately either 1.43:1 or 1.90:1) and steep stadium seating."

Also check this out...

https://www.popsci.com/story/technology ... ic-camera/

Earlier this year, however, camera maker Blackmagic introduced its Ursa Mini Pro 12K camera, which is one of our Best of What’s New award winners this year. Its $9,995 price tag seems tall until you consider what it can do and the other models with which it competes. As the name suggests, the Ursa Mini Pro can shoot 12K footage at 60 frames per second. That’s 60 images every second, each with 80 megapixels of resolution (12,288 x 6,480), easily enough detail to fill up even the massive IMAX theaters.

Using the new camera is Australian filmmaker Stephen Amezdroz, who is currently working on a film called Koala. It is slated to be the first IMAX movie captured in 12K, which roughly matches the perceived resolution of images captured on 70mm film.


So there is no need for a BMD 65mm camera as the 12k already perceives at 70mm.
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12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 11:35 pm

The question from the OP was what would the 65mm or 70mm look like if it used the BMD 12K sensor technology. It’s not try to match a 12K scan but see how many 2.2 micron photosites would fit in a large format digital sensor. As Tim has shown, it’s a lot of photosites. The exercise is a fun look at what BMD might do.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostWed Jul 06, 2022 7:29 pm

Chasing Ks even in high-end cameras is just very half the story.
Proved by Steve Yedlin:


Looks like Alexa 65 shines above all and even 65mm is not so obviously better.
It's not about Ks but quality of the sensor and color science behind it.
I would not try to make another 12K or more average sensor, but some polished 6K one.
Resolution is not the problem with modern cameras- others aspect lack way more and those should be addressed.
I'm almost sure Alexa35 will be "loved", even if it's just 4.6K :)
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostWed Jul 06, 2022 7:48 pm

Resolution was not the goal of the 12k sensor. It was a byproduct of the design.

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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostThu Jul 07, 2022 4:41 pm

John Brawley wrote:Resolution was not the goal of the 12k sensor. It was a byproduct of the design.

JB

And, this is why I'm fine with the 12K sensor. The new sensor design resulted in 12K. And, it's a curious question then what resolution you get with larger sensors. Thus Full-Frame/VistaVision being 16K, and 22K for 5-perf 65mm, and 32K for 12-perf IMAX 70mm based on the match. Yet the 12K sensor design also allows for downscaling BlackmagicRAW at full sensor.

Imagine if Blackmagic is able to create larger sensors like a 65mm and you can shoot 16K downsampled at the full sensor size.
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Chasing Ks even in high-end cameras is just very half the story.
Proved by Steve Yedlin:


Looks like Alexa 65 shines above all and even 65mm is not so obviously better.
It's not about Ks but quality of the sensor and color science behind it.
I would not try to make another 12K or more average sensor, but some polished 6K one.
Resolution is not the problem with modern cameras- others aspect lack way more and those should be addressed.
I'm almost sure Alexa35 will be "loved", even if it's just 4.6K :)

As much as I agree with Steve Yedlin, the fun here is about what the resolution will be for a larger Blackmagic Sensor based off the 12K design. It gets pretty massive, and that fun to play with.

Even the Alexa 35 is going to have bigger file sizes than the URSA 4.6K cameras because of ARRIRAW. Blackmagic RAW 3:1 4.6K is around 28 minutes per 256 GB card. The Alexa 35 uses less compression. It starts to become closer to the file sizes of CinemaDNG RAW with the original 4.6K cameras from Blackmagic. I still remember getting 14 minutes on a 256 GB card with the UM4.6K with CinemaDNG 1.3:1 compression.
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12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostThu Jul 07, 2022 4:54 pm

When shooting the music festival, I was close to filling the 1 TB CFast2 card each night for three nights using 2K lossless CinemaDNG.
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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostThu Jul 07, 2022 6:26 pm

A curious post for sure.

Since I was once a still photographer I'm pretty familiar with all these lenses. I had almost every medium format system there was.

I keep reading about Hasselblad. Personally I was never a huge fan of their glass. I had two full sets of pretty much everything they made in the leaf variety. Certain lenses performed better than others for sure, but as a system they were not my favorites.

I never hear any discussion of Fuji glass. I shot the 680 system quite a lot and the lenses were incredible at least IMHO. Even above the Mamiya glass. The film from the 680 competed head to head or even better than similar images from our 4X5's.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 12K 65mm Scans are Huge! What Would BMD 65mm Be?

PostThu Jul 07, 2022 7:58 pm

timbutt2 wrote:
Even the Alexa 35 is going to have bigger file sizes than the URSA 4.6K cameras because of ARRIRAW. Blackmagic RAW 3:1 4.6K is around 28 minutes per 256 GB card. The Alexa 35 uses less compression. It starts to become closer to the file sizes of CinemaDNG RAW with the original 4.6K cameras from Blackmagic. I still remember getting 14 minutes on a 256 GB card with the UM4.6K with CinemaDNG 1.3:1 compression.


Size of RAW assets is not the measure of quality.
Arri uses no compression so files are big. That's it.
You can have compressed RAW which is way superior to some uncompressed.
It's rather down to the camera and sensor quality.

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