The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 638
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Apr 14, 2022 5:24 pm

John Brawley wrote:There's no such thing as an 8K or 12K lens. Lenses don't have resolution. That's more stupid marketing speak. It's like having a "digital" tripod.

You can measure resolving power usually expressed as MTF, but of course that's only one of MANY optical variables that are important to image makers. A lot of lenses that are high MTF lenses aren't that beloved by image makers unless they shoot a lot of images with interleaved black and white lines....


Very well put JB!

I can support this with my experience of B4 lenses for broadcast, that do use this kind of marketing. When HD came in Larry Page of Canon went to great lengths to explain that 'SD' lenses no longer would work, that they were totally unusable... without so much as ever producing a single MTF chart. I had 4 such lenses each initially acquired for around 10K, and I sold them for a song. Having recently bought the Broadcast G2 I acquired a cheap SD lens from eBay - yes you can see MTF roll off before HD rez, compared to HD B4s, but there is still resolution well into the 4K arena and the lens looks great, even though I didn't buy it for serious work.

Now Canon and Fujinon market both 4K and 8K B4 lenses, particularly in the large expensive box lens category and I call part BS on them. Glass is glass, it is not a sensor, it is not an OLPF but it does have limitations, not easily defined by definitive marketing designations of resolution and it is very expensive to deliver very very high MTF without aberrations, across a wide range of f stops. This is why I keep saying justifying FF and beyond for uber resolution benefits, is of dubious merit.

People will say, "But stills photography has used such lenses for years on very large format cameras"... Yes they have but stills photography has often the luxury to work at very small apertures and long exposures without diffraction, impossible for motion picture work. Some of these same lenses will demonstrate the physical limits of their designs when pushed to the edges of large apertures and fall apart sooner.
Offline

John Griffin

  • Posts: 1265
  • Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:18 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Apr 14, 2022 6:07 pm

Having a sensor out resolve a lens is a good thing as it eliminates moiré and aliasing. I've got 50+ year old lenses that out resolve 9k res on my 61mp Sony stills camera and I have to stop down past F8 to kill the artefacts.
Offline

Juha Mukari

  • Posts: 21
  • Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:01 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Apr 18, 2022 3:20 pm

FullFrame with global shutter and SPAD (single-photon avalanche diode ) -with 3d / depth map - tof time of flights - tech. would be interesting for vfx purpose. and that 12K rgb (60fps) sensor would be lovely :)

http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfi-fe2020110589372.pdf

Canon did release some spad sensor lately
https://global.canon/en/news/2021/20211215.html
https://ymcinema.com/2021/05/31/more-in ... -24000fps/


I can always dream.
Offline
User avatar

Adam Langdon

  • Posts: 601
  • Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:15 pm
  • Location: Ohio USA

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 2:31 pm

I've been thinking about the Full Frame argument and how other manufacturers have handled it.

with Mirrorless camera makers and Cine Camera makers, there's plenty of FF cameras out there.
In fact, it was harder to find a manufacturer that DOESN'T have a Full Frame sensor: Blackmagic.

Now i totally understand about the unimportance of using Full Frame/ Vista Vision-sized sensors. Cinema has flourished prior to that sensor tech, and so yada yada yada.

But by NOT offering a FF/VV Camera, are they falling behind 'trends'? Gah, i hate that i have to say that. Cause culture has such a short shelf life now. Commercials were being pumped out left and right using the Alexa Mini w/ 2x Anamorphics. Now it seems there's so many commercials using LF sensors and wide angle lenses and getting really close to subjects.

I REALLY hope BMD doesn't fall behind, not in FF/VV sensors, but by being on the cusp of having people clammer over their new releases. The Pocket 6k Pro is WILDLY popular still, and it has become one of my favorite cameras so far.
Pocket 6K Pro - Vintage Russian Glass - Tamron 24-70mm f2.8 G2 - Canon 17-55mm f2.8
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 4:37 pm

Good points, Adam. It’s very difficult to know what Grant Petty will decide. One option: continue to cede the LF frame size to existing manufacturers while continuing to enhance the 6K/4K products and capabilities up to a fat Super35 and down to a Super16. That’s still a large market st this time. It’s likely a larger market than the LF market for years to come.

The Dual ISO sensors are very popular but BMD has no control over those specs currently. They do have control over their own 12K sensor technology and one can’t help but think that another camera using a smaller or larger version of that sensor technology (and unique CFA) must be in development. The big question: will BMD prioritize greater dynamic range or continuous auto focus)?

Pick one (all sensors RGBWWW CFA):

Large Format
A) 16K LF 36.0448mm 2.2 micron pitch (with continuous auto focus?)

B) 8K LF 36.0448mm 4.4 micron pitch (with 15+ stops dynamic range?)

C) 6K LF 36.0448mm 5.867 micron pitch (with 16+ stops dynamic range?)

Super35
D) 6K S35 27.0336mm 4.4 micron pitch (with 15+ stops dynamic range)

E) 12K S35 27.0336mm 2.2 micron pitch (the current camera with added continuous auto focus)

Mirrorless/Pocket or Box
F) 4K 18.0224mm 4.4 micron pitch (15 stops dynamic range)

G) 8K 18.0224mm 2.2 micron pitch (with continuous auto focus).

Edit suggested by Jeffrey:
Super16 mFT
H) 6K 13.5168mm 2.2 micron pitch 15 stops dynamic range.
Last edited by rick.lang on Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rick Lang
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 4959
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:04 pm

There's no way they're going to get 15 true stops in cameras at these prices. Except for Arri, nobody has topped the original Alexa, which came in 14-14.5 if measured rigorously, in over 10 years. Canon is likely the winner at the lower end, but those cine cameras are still significantly more expensive than BMD's.

Continuous AF may also present the insuperable. A small company likely has no choice but to license it, to be competitive. But will the market bear those costs?

Cameras seem to be going the way of commodities -- lenses with computers attached, with relatively few companies being able to sustain manufacture and marketing. The unique value that BMD provided in past years is no longer so unique. It's a hard business.
Offline

Chris Shivers

  • Posts: 364
  • Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:12 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:18 pm

John Paines wrote:There's no way they're going to get 15 true stops in cameras at these prices. Except for Arri, nobody has topped the original Alexa,


I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range. and one of the reasons why alexa has such a high dynmaic range is because their sensors uses a technology called dual gain architecture. It takes two images of different exposures, at the same time, put them together. Just like how canon just recently implemented in their cameras(Dual Gain Output).

from Arri, "The Dual Gain Architecture simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera's A/D converters, delivering a 14-bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16-bit high dynamic range image. This method enhances low light performance and prevents the highlights from being clipped, thereby significantly extending the dynamic range of the image."

so having large photosites, plus dual gain technology allows them to achieve high dynamic range. Which shouldn't make the camera $75K, I mean canon has dgo and their camera is $6K
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 3702
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:41 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:
John Paines wrote:There's no way they're going to get 15 true stops in cameras at these prices. Except for Arri, nobody has topped the original Alexa,


I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range. and one of the reasons why alexa has such a high dynmaic range is because their sensors uses a technology called dual gain architecture.



Many BMD cameras also use dual gain sensors, including their very first camera and the OG pocket.

The G2 is a dual gain sensor.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Miami
Offline
User avatar

Kim Janson

  • Posts: 1889
  • Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:54 pm
  • Location: Finland

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:55 pm

But I that the same thing. As I understand BMD has some deeper level gain setting with two levels, but only one of them can be used at one time.

John Brawley wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:
John Paines wrote:There's no way they're going to get 15 true stops in cameras at these prices. Except for Arri, nobody has topped the original Alexa,


I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range. and one of the reasons why alexa has such a high dynmaic range is because their sensors uses a technology called dual gain architecture.



Many BMD cameras also use dual gain sensors, including their very first camera and the OG pocket.

The G2 is a dual gain sensor.

JB
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 3702
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 5:58 pm

Kim Janson wrote:But I that the same thing. As I understand BMD has some deeper level gain setting with two levels, but only one of them can be used at one time.




You're talking about dual ISO vs Dual gain.

Yes, the BMD dual gain are the same as the way Arri have their dual gain sensors. The two exposures are combined into a higher (more than 16 bit lin) bit depth image before being encoded back down into a 16 bit lin / 12 bit LOG image.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Miami
Offline
User avatar

Jeffrey D Mathias

  • Posts: 310
  • Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:54 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 6:15 pm

Hey Rick,
How about:
H) Pocket 6K super16, 2.2 um pitch, MFT mount

and I'll go for the better and less expensive manual focus.
AMD Threadripper 1950x 16-core 3.4 GHz
96 GB Crucial DDR4 2666 ECC UDIMM RAM
AsRock Fatal1ty x399 motherboard
AMD Radeon Pro WX 8200 GPU
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit version 21H2, build 19044.1889
DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G
Offline

Chris Shivers

  • Posts: 364
  • Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:12 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 6:40 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Many BMD cameras also use dual gain sensors, including their very first camera and the OG pocket.

The G2 is a dual gain sensor.

JB


do they, i haven't seen them talk about it in their specs? Does the 12k also have this technology or is it just in the G2
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 4959
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 7:05 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range.


"Pretty sure"? On what basis? The Alexa came out around 2010. Nobody (but Arri) has matched it for DR since, and not for lack of trying, and at far higher prices than BMDs. Those extra 2-3 stops are very expensive to engineer. Cinema doesn't require those stops, and nobody delivers graded Alexa material with 14 stops present anyway, but we're talking about numbers, and those are the numbers.
Offline
User avatar

Jamie LeJeune

  • Posts: 1838
  • Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:33 am
  • Location: San Francisco

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 7:52 pm

John Paines wrote: Cinema doesn't require those stops, and nobody delivers graded Alexa material with 14 stops present anyway, but we're talking about numbers, and those are the numbers.
Just because there won't be 14 stops in the finished image (though current HDR10 is already 12+ stops), doesn't mean that there is no value to higher dynamic range capture. The stops captured by a camera sensor are not all equally good. They get increasingly noisy and are derived from fewer linear code values the farther down from sensor saturation (clipping) that you go. In general, the more dynamic range the camera system can capture, the higher quality finished result that can be delivered (assuming proper exposure, of course). Hence, with the Alexa 35, ARRI invested a lot of time and effort to expanding the recorded dynamic range to 17 stops. They prioritized dynamic range over sensor size and K count, with good reason IMHO.
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 8:05 pm

Jeffrey D Mathias wrote:Hey Rick,
How about:
H) Pocket 6K super16, 2.2 um pitch, MFT mount...


I see that as more likely a window option on the 8K offering, but I’ll add it to the list.
Rick Lang
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 3702
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 8:09 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
Many BMD cameras also use dual gain sensors, including their very first camera and the OG pocket.

The G2 is a dual gain sensor.

JB


do they, i haven't seen them talk about it in their specs? Does the 12k also have this technology or is it just in the G2


You’ll have to take my word for it or I’d be breaking NDA.

BMCC, OG pocket, 4.6K, 4.6k pro, micro and G2 are all dual gain sensor from the same sensor family with variable amounts of customisation from BMD. You can try Google for “Fairchild” and Blackmagic.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Miami
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 8:21 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:… with the Alexa 35, ARRI invested a lot of time and effort to expanding the recorded dynamic range to 17 stops. They prioritized dynamic range over sensor size and K count, with good reason IMHO.


I’m just hopeful that greater useful dynamic range is also a design goal for BMD and they can exceed their current cameras in that regard by providing 15+ useful stops for their next camera. Personally I value that more than continuous auto focus, but either are probably more important than LF sensor size for BMD to maintain their mojo.

And I say that with the conviction that 4K HDR HFR will be our preferred delivery for a marketplace to be dominated this decade by 4K televisions with possibly 4K theatrical releases for the blessed few who will have that opportunity while shooting with BMD cameras.
Rick Lang
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 4959
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 9:04 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Just because there won't be 14 stops in the finished image (though current HDR10 is already 12+ stops), doesn't mean that there is no value to higher dynamic range capture.


Jamie, I'm well aware of that. But we're talking, for the most part, about shooters who aren't working in the broadcast realm. More stops, etc. is not going to make any difference in the quality of the work. And cinematic masterpieces have been achieved with far fewer than 14 available stops. There are far more significant sources of production shortcomings than 11 stops versus 14.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 9:43 pm

True, John. But one relatively recent evolving change in the digital era is grading for HDR. It’s not really important today, but doesn’t being able to support the growing trend to view HDR at home on a suitable television make a higher dynamic range image capture a selling point of new cameras?

Although my Apple Pro XDR Display admittedly isn’t the ideal way to grade, it is in the ballpark allowing me to see the differences when grading for sRGB, Rec.709, and HDR10. Resolve makes it relatively easy to generate different grades for different audiences (web, HDTV, HDR). All can handle the same capture ratios and be graded acceptably, but the results for highlights with an HDR peaking at 1000 nits looks better. Most of the image sits around 100 (HDTV) nits or up to 203 (LG Evo OLED) nits, regardless, but viscerally pleasing when you can show higher values correctly (important even though it’s never going to make a bad story good).
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

Kim Janson

  • Posts: 1889
  • Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:54 pm
  • Location: Finland

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 1:50 am

I do wonder the native sensor (silicone/analogue amplifier) dynamic range vs. processed dynamic range and side effect that processing causes.i.e what compromises there has to be to archive 17 stops vs. 14.

17 stops is 8x 'better than' 14 stops, there must be some compromises. One is big cooling, but that these cameras already have.
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 2:15 am

One advantage that the 12K sensor/CFA may have is that half the photosites are clear (presumably like a monochrome sensor) and half are RGB which might absorb more light than they pass through. That might get them an extra stop of light or more. Perhaps tweaking their exposure calculations can pick up more dynamic range and still maintain good colour fidelity which no one wants them to sacrifice. More to it than simply a dual exposure with bits offset I think. Wish I knew more about it but I trust it’s something that they are going to achieve.
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2455
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 2:30 am

I still think the greatest advantage of Large Format or Full Frame is that you have the extra frame size and extra resolution for reframing in post. This is most advantageous for VFX plates.

I was watching the Disney+ Light & Magic docuseries on Industrial Light & Magic recently, and they spoke about repurposing the old VistaVision cameras to do their VFX shots. The main purpose was the higher fidelity of the film. It's a worthwhile watch for sure because a lot of amazing information and history.

I have a feeling that we'll be moving in the direction of utilizing Large Format and Full Frame digital cameras for VFX purposes in the future just like we had in the past. As well 65mm as a large format is amazing for these purposes.

As Blackmagic Cameras like the 12K and 6K are used often to capture plates for the LED Walls and Green Screen replacement backgrounds I can see a great advantage to Blackmagic creating a VistaVision sized 16K Sensor for these purposes. Even going to 5-Perf 65mm Size and 24K (24,576 X 10,224) can yield amazing VFX benefits.

The thing that Light & Magic made me realize is that there are great craft that goes into miniatures and their use in cinema for VFX. As much as it's great that we can build so much in the computer, we now have the ability to 3D print all the parts perfectly for easy assembly into the model. And photographing the model has amazing benefits. So utilizing those kind of larger sensors with higher resolutions have beautiful results.

I can imaging marrying all the old school techniques with this modern tech to create amazing results. So, large format does have a part to play in that.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline
User avatar

Darko Djerich

  • Posts: 269
  • Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:00 pm
  • Location: Sydney,Australia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 2:49 am

John Paines wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range.


"Pretty sure"? On what basis? The Alexa came out around 2010. Nobody (but Arri) has matched it for DR since, and not for lack of trying, and at far higher prices than BMDs. Those extra 2-3 stops are very expensive to engineer. Cinema doesn't require those stops, and nobody delivers graded Alexa material with 14 stops present anyway, but we're talking about numbers, and those are the numbers.


It is to do with LA-LA Land - Latitude, those 2-3 stops especially in latitude way the colours are rendered and consistent -5 and + 5 stops , it it matters so much on set, 2-3 stops Dr is huge difference.

Deep blacks and beautiful highlights in clean image that renders colours so pleasing.

It is the reason I went and picked up old 2K ARRI Classic over all new gen cameras and paired it with C7 FD adapter and FD SSC lenses.

Those 2-3 stops make life so much easier when lighting the scene and generally gives much niceer image and more redundancy to let go so and make errors under or over exposing .

When I first shot BMCC OG in 2013 I was gobsmacked how I could never go back to 7D Canon again and how
2 were so difficult to match and vastly different images.

Once I shot Alexa for the first time, I had similar awakening almost immediately even just looking through viewfinder.

I still feel the same when I take photo with my old but true medium format 16bit Phase One P40+ with 2010 CCD Dalsa sensor.

Something about 2010, great things happened at the higher end.

Those old Dalsa and Kodak sensors, just like ALEV Arri sensors were so expensive for reason.

Don't take my word for it, now is the time to grab old ARRI Classic and see it for yourself.

BMD cameras are right up there and for the money hard to get anything to look as close to ARRI images.
Where ARRI becomes really affordable is by being reliable on set and allowing more freedom to let go being more forgiving, that is huge dealbreaker, when time is ticking and you paying 10's of thousands dollars for cast and crew, you rely on your camera to do the job and gives you as much freedom as possible.
Artist
Creative Film Enterprises Pty Ltd
creativefilm.com.au
ARRI Alexa EV iMac5k i7 48gb Asus Ryzen 7 rtx3070 BMD eGPU MacBook M1 phase one p40+, UM4.6 ef bmcc ef bmpcc, speed editor, micro panel weebill S Segway dji Inspire RAW Evo2Pro
Offline

Howard Roll

  • Posts: 1837
  • Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 4:20 am

In the interests of science a dual gain sensor doesn’t take two exposures, that was an hdr trick that Red implemented earlier on to boost DR but it came with a bunch of compromises. The BM and Alexa sensors use hi/lo parallel readout (simultaneous) to achieve greater DR. The 12K kinda uses a similar effect with the clear/wideband pixels and the filtered/narrowband pixels. A braw pixel is the sum of several pixels including both wide and narrowband pixels.

Good Luck
Offline

Chris Shivers

  • Posts: 364
  • Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:12 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 9:21 am

John Paines wrote:
"Pretty sure"? On what basis? The Alexa came out around 2010. Nobody (but Arri) has matched it for DR since, and not for lack of trying, and at far higher prices than BMDs. Those extra 2-3 stops are very expensive to engineer. Cinema doesn't require those stops, and nobody delivers graded Alexa material with 14 stops present anyway, but we're talking about numbers, and those are the numbers.


Because camera manufacturers are worried about the other specs of the sensor. Like how much resolution can you get. You have sensors that are 6k, 5k, 8k, and 12k. Not to knock the ursa 12k, i have it and it's a nice image. But Arri focus is different. They are highly focused on image quality, their cameras barely reach 4K. The only reason why it would reach there is to be Netflix compliant. Arri is focused on getting the most quality out of the image. They are not in the resolution race, which I wish other companies thought like Arri. If other companies were focused on IQ, I wouldn't doubt that we would see sensors reach the 15+ stops range.
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 4959
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 7:56 pm

Darko Djerich wrote:It is to do with LA-LA Land - Latitude, those 2-3 stops especially in latitude way the colours are rendered and consistent -5 and + 5 stops , it it matters so much on set, 2-3 stops Dr is huge difference.


I don't know about "huge" - how many stops does The Godfather have? -- but you'd never guess we were talking about the low-end of the market.

No need to sell me on the virtues of the Alexa -- or 35mm. But what's done in Hollywood, where camera costs barely even figure, has no application here. 15-stops as opposed to 12 is not going to make anyone rich and famous, make no-budget movies any better, or provide existential comforts (soon as you get those 15, some time in 2033, you'll want 17).

They're movies, not museum pieces, and least of all at the low budget end, where one of the attractions is lack of a faultless surface. Movies get into your system in all sort of devious ways. You don't need all those stops to do it. Are we making movies or dreaming about gear?
Offline
User avatar

Kim Janson

  • Posts: 1889
  • Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:54 pm
  • Location: Finland

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 8:26 pm

Today a better camera than anything available 15 years ago cost 2500 euro. We are gear dreaming.

But then again, digital audio was first 16 bit, it is more than enough, then we got 24 bit and now 32 bit float.

How is 32 bit float better than 16 bit, well one does not need to set the recording level, one does not need to worry about clipping of the sound.
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
Offline
User avatar

Jamie LeJeune

  • Posts: 1838
  • Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:33 am
  • Location: San Francisco

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 11:03 pm

John Paines wrote: I don't know about "huge" - how many stops does The Godfather have?
In the negative? As many stops as a standard Alexa captures. Gordon Willis wasn't shooting reversal.
There's a significant difference between the dynamic range of the camera negative used for capture versus the lower dynamic range of a print stock for distribution. In film processing, the cinematographer can choose to print it up or down to decide which range of captured stops to put in the middle of the range in the print, the rest being rolled off at the top and bottom by the contrast curve that was engineered into the stock. It's the same approach capturing wide dynamic range log today which is then transformed for displays that have less dynamic range than the capture.
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 4959
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 11:39 pm

Jamie, you really don't need to offer this instruction. Give the audience a little credit, for knowing that original negative holds more stops than print stocks. DR is a relative measure: look at a Rembrandt. What's the DR? It's tiny, and yet it's a whole world.

Claiming you need 14 stops to produce great visual cinema is nonsense, even with all the resources of Hollywood -- much less the stuff that most owners of BMD cameras are shooting.
Offline

Tom Roper

  • Posts: 376
  • Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:59 pm
  • Real Name: Tom Roper

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 5:51 am

I thought that was a very informative post from Jamie. Where did he claim you need 14 stops to produce great visual cinema?

And thank you @Howard Roll for clarification on dual gain sensors.
Offline
User avatar

Kim Janson

  • Posts: 1889
  • Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:54 pm
  • Location: Finland

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 6:15 am

The question is also how good are those stops, using just the 9 bottom stops or top 9 stops or having just a camera with 9 stops. Having more stops is just easier for most of us on not so well controlled light situations, even if the published video would be compressed to 8 stops.
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
Offline
User avatar

Darko Djerich

  • Posts: 269
  • Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:00 pm
  • Location: Sydney,Australia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 10:52 am

John Paines wrote:
Darko Djerich wrote:It is to do with LA-LA Land - Latitude, those 2-3 stops especially in latitude way the colours are rendered and consistent -5 and + 5 stops , it it matters so much on set, 2-3 stops Dr is huge difference.


I don't know about "huge" - how many stops does The Godfather have? -- but you'd never guess we were talking about the low-end of the market.

No need to sell me on the virtues of the Alexa -- or 35mm. But what's done in Hollywood, where camera costs barely even figure, has no application here. 15-stops as opposed to 12 is not going to make anyone rich and famous, make no-budget movies any better, or provide existential comforts (soon as you get those 15, some time in 2033, you'll want 17).

They're movies, not museum pieces, and least of all at the low budget end, where one of the attractions is lack of a faultless surface. Movies get into your system in all sort of devious ways. You don't need all those stops to do it. Are we making movies or dreaming about gear?


It is true, you can make film with Mini DV, Betacam, VHS camcorder or any DSLR these days.
This is artistic choice.

Personally, I like to struggle less on set and in the post, silly but true, used ALEXA classic is now in low end of market at $4000 - 7000 US dollars.

Your story, your choice, it can be done with many low end cameras and it has been done many times.

Sometimes is just more practical to have GoPro attached or small drone or GH5 or whatever it takes.
Artist
Creative Film Enterprises Pty Ltd
creativefilm.com.au
ARRI Alexa EV iMac5k i7 48gb Asus Ryzen 7 rtx3070 BMD eGPU MacBook M1 phase one p40+, UM4.6 ef bmcc ef bmpcc, speed editor, micro panel weebill S Segway dji Inspire RAW Evo2Pro
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2455
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 1:18 pm

What matters more: Sensor Size, Resolution, or Dynamic Range?


As this review of the new ARRI Alexa 35 Super 35mm Sensor shows Arri just created the highest dynamic range sensor yet. And, they did it in Super 35! And, 4.6K!

Resolution isn't as pivotal as dynamic range. The new Alexa 35 is the same 4.6K resolution as the older Blackmagic 4.6K sensors. Granted it has more height resolution. So the question is whether Blackmagic can continue to improve the 12K to get more dynamic range out of it while keeping to Super 35 size?

And, remember what I said above about the benefits of larger sensor size and resolution for VFX. I think that is going to be the bets application of the larger formats, just like in the past.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 4:29 pm

Just after 21:30 in that video, there is mention of the bit depth used for ARRI raw on the Alexa 35. I’m not sure what is being claimed: 13 bit or 30 bit? Must be 30 bit because it’s described as a huge increase.
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 1809
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 4:34 pm

rick.lang wrote:Just after 21:30 in that video, there is mention of the bit depth used for ARRI raw on the Alexa 35. I’m not sure what is being claimed: 13 bit or 30 bit? Must be 30 bit because it’s described as a huge increase.


it is 13 bit, and this is a huge increase of 12 bit
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB SSD/4x4TB/7101A 4x2TB 970evo+/HP1344/BMD4k/RadeonVII
macOS 11.7
BMPCC 6k pro (7.9.1)
meike s35 cine 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm
resolve studio 18.0.4
mini panel
speed editor
desktop video 12.1
intensity pro 4k
atem extreme (8.6.1)
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 4:46 pm

Thanks, Mark. That new Fujifilm camera using 14 bit up to 30 fps must be impressive.
Rick Lang
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 4959
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 5:00 pm

Arriraw on the 35 is 18 bit linear encoded as 13 bit log. The increase probably has something to do with the requirements for 17 stops. I don't think 10 bits could hold them, though 12 probably can. Where else it might be seen (the new color science?) isn't clear.
Offline
User avatar

Jamie LeJeune

  • Posts: 1838
  • Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:33 am
  • Location: San Francisco

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 5:20 pm

rick.lang wrote:Thanks, Mark. That new Fujifilm camera using 14 bit up to 30 fps must be impressive.

Some crucial information is missing in the comparison being implied here — linear readout from the A/D conversion versus a Lin to log conversion for efficient storage. That difference between linear versus log is significant.

The Fuji is doing an A/D conversion to 14bit linear then storing that data as 10bit F-log2

Alexa 35 is doing an A/D conversion to 18bit linear then storing that data as 13bit log encoded ARRIRAW
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 6:04 pm

Thank you, Jamie and John.

As I recall BMD uses 16bit linear encoded to 12bit log. I wonder if BMD has considered going higher than 12bit log for a future camera although that’s going to bump up datarates. They may need to increase the linear calculations too and with that RGBWWW CFA, perhaps they’re already at the computational limits of their image processor.
Rick Lang
Offline

Howard Roll

  • Posts: 1837
  • Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 7:00 pm

Arri chose to go with 13 bit in order to keep the data allocation per stop the same as Arriraw from the Alexa. There wouldn’t be much point for BM to increase the bit rate unless they develop a dramatically new sensor. I think it was mentioned that G5/WDR can hold 18+ stops mathematically, 10.3 over mid grey, I couldn’t find any mention of the under. Rec709 can hold 7 stops under mid grey so 7+ is a safe bet for G5.

Good Luck
Offline

Thecreator82

  • Posts: 8
  • Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:44 pm
  • Real Name: Fausto Cantarella

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 7:48 pm

Fully share what is stated by timbutt2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 15654
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 9:49 pm

Howard Roll wrote:... There wouldn’t be much point for BM to increase the bit rate unless they develop a dramatically new sensor. I think it was mentioned that G5/WDR can hold 18+ stops mathematically…


Thanks, Howard. I can see that a new sensor could be in the works, but don’t really expect that yet.

It’s been a learning experience to see how the 12K 2.2 micron photosites has worked out. It has a place where high resolution is a distinct advantage. But let’s also hope they’re considering a 6K Super35 with 4.4 micron photosites if that helps BMD increase dynamic range and latitude.

Although I like what the BMPCC4K can do with 4.63 micron photosites, I understand the consensus BMPCC6K can do it better with smaller 3.76 micron photosites. The original UM4.6K uses 5.5 micron photosites and CinemaDNG Gen 3/4 looks very good in most situations. A more modern 6K 4.4 micron sensor might be enough of an improvement under $10,000. Might not look too shabby pitting Gen 5 against the ARRI Alexa 35 4.6K with 6.075 micron photosites that gather almost twice the light.

Perhaps I’m leaning too hard on the 6K RGB CFA colour advantage (capture 6K to deliver 4K) but I’m assuming with the RGBWWW CFA, 6K really is needed for the best 4K deliverables, using the same algorithms that enable the 12K sensor to deliver the best 8K.
Rick Lang
Offline

Howard Roll

  • Posts: 1837
  • Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 1:17 am

A 6K rgbwww sensor would have half the color resolution of the P6K as every other pixel is clear, what would be gained in DR would be lost in color fidelity.

Good Luck
Offline
User avatar

Kim Janson

  • Posts: 1889
  • Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:54 pm
  • Location: Finland

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 2:11 am

Usually there is more green pixels than others, so that should help some with the colour resolution, and also maybe they do also calculation of colour pixels by subtraction i.e W-(R+B) = G etc.

Howard Roll wrote:A 6K rgbwww sensor would have half the color resolution of the P6K as every other pixel is clear, what would be gained in DR would be lost in color fidelity.

Good Luck
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
Offline

Howard Roll

  • Posts: 1837
  • Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 3:53 am

The 12K sensor is far from usual, do some research, mine is likely flawed, it’s very interesting nonetheless. The green pixels compose only 1/6th rather than 1/2 which is the standard Bayer or “usually” subsampled YCrCb 4:2:2.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190306472A1/en

Attached is a color Sudoku for the sensor nerds.

Good Luck

SueDoku.jpg
SueDoku.jpg (394.85 KiB) Viewed 1019 times
Offline
User avatar

Jeffrey D Mathias

  • Posts: 310
  • Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:54 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 5:42 pm

Howard Roll wrote:A 6K rgbwww sensor would have half the color resolution of the P6K as every other pixel is clear, what would be gained in DR would be lost in color fidelity.


I guess if you say so... not. I use the 12K at super16 6K several times a week and the color fidelity is great. Unfortunately I do not have a pocket 6K to compare.

I can tell you that the color fidelity from 6K super16 looks pretty equivalent to 12K, both in 4K HDR... and much nicer than my URSA4.6K (G1) and Pocket 4K... or any other cameras I have used.
AMD Threadripper 1950x 16-core 3.4 GHz
96 GB Crucial DDR4 2666 ECC UDIMM RAM
AsRock Fatal1ty x399 motherboard
AMD Radeon Pro WX 8200 GPU
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit version 21H2, build 19044.1889
DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 3702
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 5:48 pm

Howard Roll wrote:A 6K rgbwww sensor would have half the color resolution of the P6K as every other pixel is clear, what would be gained in DR would be lost in color fidelity.

Good Luck


Howard, the clear pixels aren’t really clear, they’re actually called W for white.

While they don’t have a colour filter, they are actually ALL colour.

As described earlier, every pixel in a 12k sensor array is made of RGB and W(all colour) so I don’t think you can argue less colour resolution. They aren’t “just” w, they go through the same algorithm that R G and B photo site go to generate those summed colours.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Miami
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 15065
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 5:54 pm

Please remember that humans see much more detail in luminance than in color.
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

Resolve Studio 18.0.3 , MacOS 12.6
MacBook M1 Pro, 16 GPU cores, 32 GB RAM
and
iMac 2017, Radeon 580, 32 GB RAM
Speed Editor
Offline

Howard Roll

  • Posts: 1837
  • Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Aug 20, 2022 4:09 am

Only the luma is summed for “all” pixels. The red and blue Braw pixels, sited at the white pixel, are the sum of a b-g, or r-g filter kernel arranged in a 4:2:0 scheme. To allege that the “white” pixels are the sum of all colors is incorrect as they only represent red or blue. Ironically, the rgb pixel sites only represent luma after braw encoding.

Good Luck
Previous

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AndreeMarkefors, Milen Mladenov, Sergey Asa and 31 guests