No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

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Ellory Yu

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 5:57 am

John Brawley wrote:There's accurate colour and then there's good colour...they aren't the same EVER...

…..

We actually don't want reality, we want what looks good.

…..

JB


This two quotes from JB is clearly my thinking of color and aesthetics of THE PICTURE.
If I like the color, if the color, aesthetics, and the story looks and speaks to me, that’s all I care. That’s my art. Those who watch and enjoy the same with me are my audience. Those who are not, well ask me if I care what their critics are. Of course they can enjoy the arts of others. Hence, the philosophy of good color and what looks good in my world, my art. That’s the very essence why I do this, passionately.

For example, I can get the color card, gray card to white balance it, do all I can do to color accurate it to some standards, then I feel that I could throw a bit of yellow on it as that appeals my image, my envisioned look for the story, then that is my color, my aesthetics. That being no longer accurate become irrelevant to me and I am good with that.
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Kim Janson

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 6:07 am

Last time I used Canon R to make video, I had to look a 5 minute YouTube video how to put it on manual control video mode. :?: :cry:

Too often the frustration with the tool kills the small hint of creativity I might have had. Not talking only about cameras.
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 9:03 am

John Brawley wrote:There's accurate colour and then there's good colour...they aren't the same EVER...


Speaking with my grading hat on and having to often calibrate reference monitors, I can say that there is hardly such a thing as accurate colours. I watched the engineer at one facility carefully calibrate 3 FSI DM240s, with Calman, very good professional monitors still for SDR. They all looked different afterwards, even though the probe was itself calibrated. He said which one do you want?, I said the one with better contrast please, ha ha.

When it comes to cameras, I would warrant, no one wants accurate colours. They want pleasing colours, with often wild 3D Luts, hopefully with white balance, done carefully in relation to that. There is one maker of a camera who claims his camera produces accurate colours. I would ask against what and on what monitor can you properly judge this? It is theoretically possible to calibrate a camera more accurately and use Colorcheckers at the beginning of takes, but as I say who really wants that? What time of day are you shooting, what kind of lighting? Colour temp changes all the time through intensity, distance and angle of lighting. Then in grading accuracy is only for consistency between facilities and broadcasters and the accuracy of what you are doing when you change colours - WYSIWYG can of thing - you grade creatively often changing the look and therefore the accuracy of colours markedly.

In post there is largely two standards now Rec. 709, for SDR and DCI-P3 for HDR TV and cinema. There are no 12 bit monitors available for any price and none goes much beyond DCI-P3. Yet even most lowly cameras can capture Rec. 2020 and record in 12 bit log.
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Kim Janson

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 9:39 am

I guess with cameras it is more question of clear colours. IR solution could result unrecoverable colour problems etc. (see the graph I posted earlier)

for cinematography purposes the colour 'balance' will anyway be fixed and broadcast cameras have colour adjustments.

But if the monitor used when adjusting the colour is not accurate, the result is undefined.

Anyway, how we see colours is what it is even if we would have perfect colour vision.

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1.png (197.93 KiB) Viewed 2514 times


( https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2018/02/ ... -illusion/ )
Last edited by Kim Janson on Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 9:49 am

rNeil H wrote:We have more colors available now. More tools for telling stories, for evoking responses. I'm simply suggesting that trying something outside past "proper aesthetic Ideals" might ... just might ... be a useful thing to try.


I get that point and agree in principle. But up until today, I think those endless possibilities have not led to aesthetically more pleasing images from any digital camera's output compared to film (with the exception of Arri's Alexa imo, I prefer any Roger Deakins film he shot on Alexa over actual film).

Quite the opposite actually. Because the basic principle stays the same - endless possibilities more often than not lead to less desirable results UNLESS you are a master at what you do - and there are far less actual masters that mediocre players in any field.

Considering "more tools for telling stories": having more tools is an easy recipe for undesirable outcomes, especially when starting out. Many no and low budget film's lighting for example falls short because film lights are simply overused and they would have been better off just shooting with the practicals that are already there.

I agree with you in principle, but if possibilities get endless it requires even more mastery to achieve desirable results and - at least so far - I have seen more bad than good (film can look aesthetically bad too, but it's a lot harder - think about 70's p0rn :) ).

And about different human perception, anyone remember the dress debate?
https://www.wired.com/2015/02/science-o ... lor-dress/
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John Brawley

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 3:38 pm

I know exactly which cinema camera you're talking about that claims to have the most accurate colour workflow, and I feel the same about the utility of that.

And yes the primacy of the end of observer....
https://www.sciencealert.com/crazy-opti ... hite-photo

Yes of course we want a good starting place from which to depart....

Because of the photochemical process of film it was possible to also mess with that and get in-accurate but amazing results.

You may have seen "bleach bypass" which was basically skipping a whole chemical processing bath that resulted in a mistake if you talk to a Kodak rep or the deeply glossy beautiful blacks and shifted highlights of Seven, City of lost children (same DP) Saving Private Ryan, Minority Report to name a few....

Saving Private Ryan also had a camera detuned so that the film was still advancing as the shutter was opening. Normally the film should be perfectly still, but if it's moving as it lands or departs the gate just as the shutter is opening and closing, you get theses horizontal streaks on highlights.

https://cms-assets.theasc.com/Saving-Pr ... 0703000134

Now to a camera designer and camera rental technician, that's a terrible mistake to be avoided at all cost. But here we are using that "mistake" to add dramatic and emotional impact to a scene.

How do you even do that with digital? What is the digital equivalent of this step? There isn't one. YES, we desperately try to replicate these mistakes using modern digital VFX and grading techniques...

But in the digital imaging chain, where is the possibility to use imaging process mistakes like this for creative effect? Digital cameras work, or they don't....They look the same everywhere, no matter if you use it anywhere on the planet (regional film processing labs could also contribute to the imaging process in unexpected ways)

I think for a lot of cinematographers who are used to and came up shooting on film, one of the reasons we mourn using film is because we have lost the ability as creatives to be able to screw with the whole image process from exposure to delivery in a way that produces unexpected and beautiful faults or mistakes.

We get called snobs for this.

Harris Savides, a fabulous Cinematographer, famously baked film before he put in the camera on the film The Yards. He had a recipe, putting cans of film into a low temperature oven for a certain amount of time, and then photographing with it.

"but what I learnt as a painter is that you never squeeze black paint out of the tube and brush it straight onto the canvas. You don't do that because that doesn't exist in real life, you always have to mix it with a brown or a blue because black absorbs light. It doesn't exist in real life unless you are sitting in a dark room with the door closed, that isn't a painting. So, in order to get that painterly look we had to break the back of the film. We did a lot of screwy things, we baked the film at 110 degrees for 15 minutes which broke down the film's ability to form the sharpest picture. It gave it almost a period look because the stock looks more like it used to look, it looks older."

If you put your 12K in the oven it wouldn't affect the image in any way.

I think digital imaging really struggles to give creatives the same detours to explore with the illusion of being better... but it's really only in one main highway of image look that we now ALL start from pretty much the same place.... They close off all the back roads you might be able to take to get to the same destination, with a perhaps more interesting journey along the way....

JB
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 3:58 pm

John Brawley wrote:I think for a lot of cinematographers who are used to and came up shooting on film, one of the reasons we mourn using film is because we have lost the ability as creatives to be able to screw with the whole image process from exposure to delivery in a way that produces unexpected and beautiful faults or mistakes.


Absolutely John... What is it the late great Geoff Boyle, always said, "F... the numbers".
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 4:00 pm

That’s why the Alexa 35 has „Textures“, as Arri calls them. Some look pretty well baked ;-)
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 4:06 pm

One striking feature of going between film projection and digital is the obvious one -- how flat and 2 dimensional digital can looks by comparison. Any youngish doubters, try it some time at a film festival (where they can still project film). (I'd also argue that film projection is much less fatiguing and far more engaging, but that's another issue...)

The explanation could be grain, gate weave, stochastic disturbances, etc. but I think it also goes back at least in part to "translucence" -- light actually shining through a strip of film. As mentioned in another thread, Gordon Willis would underexpose by 2/3rds of a stop and then push process the negative to heighten that effect. In some scenes it's as if you're seeing *through* the image, almost holographic. It gives the light itself a certain depth. Not available on any sensor, and if there's a plugin, it's yet to be invented.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 20, 2022 6:24 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:What is it the late great Geoff Boyle, always said, "F... the numbers".


Add David Simon's (creator of The Wire) advice of "F.. the audience" and the foundation for something actually engaging is laid.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 5:10 am

Michel Rabe wrote:
Steve Fishwick wrote:What is it the late great Geoff Boyle, always said, "F... the numbers".


Add David Simon's (creator of The Wire) advice of "F.. the audience" and the foundation for something actually engaging is laid.

Well, without the audience, what good is it to make movies? I disagree with that advice unless it is for a hermit who makes film for just themselves. It that case, he can just revert back to Geoff Boyce’s advice for himself. :lol:
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Kim Janson

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 5:33 am

"F.. the audience" On YouTube and platforms alike I really hope there would be more of that attitude, but no, everything is put to same format, with same cookbook to optimise the cashflow in a secured way, and movies are no different.

I do not thing the "F.. the audience" is to create something that no one wants to see, but not be limited by what the audience is used to see.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 6:28 am

Kim Janson wrote:"F.. the audience" On YouTube and platforms alike I really hope there would be more of that attitude, but no, everything is put to same format, with same cookbook to optimise the cashflow in a secured way, and movies are no different.

I do not thing the "F.. the audience" is to create something that no one wants to see, but not be limited by what the audience is used to see.

I don’t consider YouTube, Facebook, and like platforms as channels for films. It’s a free for all none “Cine” content platforms. IMO, while others have theirs, YouTubers are not filmmakers in the traditional sense and I don’t really care if they make $$$ or are dubbed as so called influencers. I don’t even know or care what that means. It’s a generation trend, while production films have been around for ages, Again, I’m saying my peace, others have their opinions. If YouTube or Vimeo is used for production pictures, I think its use is good to market contents, such as trailers or the like.
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Kim Janson

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 6:38 am

Well YouTube is also Movie distribution channel but I did not mean that, nor that normal YouTube content should be compared the Cinematography, but there is analogy between them.

Both often aim to please the masses to maximise the income. To be safe they do that staying on the well accepted, analysed and optimised content creation templates. Trying anything new would be a risk.

the way I understand it the "F.. the audience" means "F.. the optimised and tested content creation templates"
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Uli Plank

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 7:39 am

Well explained.

Experimental aesthetics from the last century, only seen in festivals or arthouse cinema, are commonplace stylistic tools today. They are now accepted by general audiences.

Heck, even a close-up was a bold choice by D. W. Griffith at the time, causing some in the audience to leave the cinema while complaining that he's showing cut-off heads and hands. At the time, everybody else was filming like documenting a theater stage. There's no progress without experimentation.

For me, that's the true meaning of "f… the audience".
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Michel Rabe

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 9:04 am

It is.
If you change your ideas because you are afraid the audience may not like it, if you rewrite dialogue because you're worried that someone in the audience may not get it when it's not explained to death, if you stick to the good ol' beat structure because what you originally had in mind may, god forbid, force anyone to participate instead of just consume, if it all is just a loud, garish compromise...

...then you're doing a Netflix movie :)


EDIT:
I must apologize, I quoted David Simon falsely. He did not say "F... the audience", he said "F... the Average Viewer". Quite a difference, but arguably same lessons.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 2:23 pm

David Simon can say that only because he has something of a day job at HBO. The Wire was never very popular, but was beloved by critics and a small audience. So they made the admirable decision not to cancel. Since then, he hasn't equaled it in my view, but they keep him on anyway, his series have a certain prestige.

Today it's really an impossible situation. Classic art film is an anachronism, accurately pronounced dead on several occasions in the 1990s (see, Susan Sontag, Godfrey Cheshire) well before digital. And it was the invaluable contribution of Robert Redford, that he took alternative American cinema, which was of some interest in the 80s and early 90s, and turned it into Hollywood-accessible material, but without the commercial value, to prove how virtuous and heartfelt he is:



[btw, every one of those clips is a parody of an actual "indie" film seen at Sundance]

These days, so-called "independent film" is full of people who've never even seen a classic art film. Even Bresson-Godard-Tarkovsky-Fassbinder-Mizoguichi nostalgia is no longer possible.

I think "hopeless" is the word. The audience for the real thing will die out completely in 10 or 20 years. Then bring on the youtubes and more camera comparisons.
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rick.lang

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 3:05 pm

John, there’s another generation coming so there’s always hope for the future. Your posts are an inspiration.
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No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 3:52 pm

Just to update my tangential thread on the iPhone 14 Pro: phone arrived on the 20th and I’m now configured to produce 48 megapixel 10-bit Apple ProRAW (uncompressed DNG) and 10-bit ProRes video. I have the 1 TB storage option so I can record about 2.5 hours of ProRes before offloading. I read that Airdrop is faster than Apple’s ’Pro’ Lightning connector so I guess I’ll try that.

Trying to get some tests soon, but I expect it to be similar to the BMPCC4K.

I have three days of client shoots next week to prepare for! I’ll post some results in it’s own thread.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 4:57 pm

John Paines wrote:These days, so-called "independent film" is full of people who've never even seen a classic art film. Even Bresson-Godard-Tarkovsky-Fassbinder-Mizoguichi nostalgia is no longer possible.

I think "hopeless" is the word. The audience for the real thing will die out completely in 10 or 20 years. Then bring on the youtubes and more camera comparisons.


I believe the audience for authenticity will grow again, when people are sick of the shallow mediocrity they are being fed in tiny, loud, fast flying spoons every minute.

John Paines wrote:David Simon can say that only because he has something of a day job at HBO.

Everyone can say that. It's just that few dare to do, which is why we don't get to see a lot of original content. But everyone can say it, no excuses.
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ricardo marty

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 7:40 pm

I'd like to ask a question about digital vs. film. If you shoot in digital and then transfer it to a negative film, can it then recreate some of those subtle and nice images of the old-style films mentioned here?

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 7:46 pm

rick.lang wrote:I have the 1 TB storage option so I can record about 2.5 hours of ProRes before offloading. I read that Airdrop is faster than Apple’s ’Pro’ Lightning connector so I guess I’ll try that.
In my testing Airdrop often failed on large sets of video files, but let us know if you have better luck with it.
If relying on the lightning connection, it is USB 2.0 limited, so transferring a full 2.5 hours of shooting will take about 5 hours (or more).
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John Paines

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 7:56 pm

ricardo marty wrote:I'd like to ask a question about digital vs. film. If you shoot in digital and then transfer it to a negative film, can it then recreate some of those subtle and nice images of the old-style films mentioned here?

Ricardo marty


Yes. "Dune" was done that way, and there are a number of others. Some people actually went the other way, to degrade the image. "Breaking the Waves" is one example. Shot on film, transferred to video so they could muck it up and domesticate it, then back to film.
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Kim Janson

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 8:05 pm

That would be a bit like digitally remastered LP record. It happens a lot, but I do not really like the idea.

But I do occasionally add a tube preamplifier between DAC and loudspeaker, knowingly adding pleasant type of distortion to the sound.

I do think it is a good question.

Over all I am not sure if it is finally so much question of digital vs. analogue (or film), the digital just gives too many options to destroy the data when editing. I mean sound compression, LUT, colour correction etc.

The strength of the digital media really is the distribution. Digital media does not suffer when copied.

ricardo marty wrote:I'd like to ask a question about digital vs. film. If you shoot in digital and then transfer it to a negative film, can it then recreate some of those subtle and nice images of the old-style films mentioned here?

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 8:47 pm

CPC London for example record your digital content to positive 35mm motion picture film and scan it back to digital.
https://www.cpclondon.com/truegrain-scanning
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 9:58 pm

John Paines wrote:"Dune" was done that way, and there are a number of others.

For more detail on that digital to film back to digital process (which Fotokem cheekily abbreviates to “AI” — short for “analog intermediate”) that was used in Dune and why they chose it, my colleague Robert Gomez Hernandez and I made a video that covers that. It is one episode in a series of shorts on Hollywood color work, sponsored by Portrait Displays International (the company that makes Calman calibration software).
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John Brawley

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostWed Sep 21, 2022 10:07 pm

It's an idea that's been around a while.

One of my first jobs in the early 90's was operating a "telekine" which was a version of the same thing. Putting VIDEO onto FILM.

I'd also argue shooting on FILM and then doing digital post is kind of the same thing and has been much more common and prevalent even to today, with many shows still stubbornly shooting film.

You get FILM origination, and DIGITAL post / colour correction. In my view that's a pretty nice best of both worlds look.

Shooting digital and "washing" it through a film process allows a similar approach in terms of film and I'm imagining it's because it meant they can shoot larger format (Alexa 65) and get a film feel without having to resort to shooting on 70mm, which is frankly really difficult these days. There are so few labs and only a handful of functional camera 65 cameras that work. Arri made the 765 but there's only a few of those (maybe less than 12) and they Arne't that reliable. I feel like I've heard of several references to them breaking down on set (shutter island was one)

Panavsion have a 65mm system as well, but again, it's not in wide circulation. ON a massive show like dune where they probably have multiple units and many bodies, it's harder to support a camera 65 origination.

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Michel Rabe

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostThu Sep 22, 2022 9:02 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
John Paines wrote:"Dune" was done that way, and there are a number of others.

For more detail on that digital to film back to digital process (which Fotokem cheekily abbreviates to “AI” — short for “analog intermediate”) that was used in Dune and why they chose it, my colleague Robert Gomez Hernandez and I made a video that covers that. It is one episode in a series of shorts on Hollywood color work, sponsored by Portrait Displays International (the company that makes Calman calibration software).


Would love to see a before/after comparison, just to see if the effect was worth the effort. Felt great in cinema so probably was.

And surely not nearly the effort that Hoytema put around his monster Alexa 65 IR / Panavision 65mm film rig for 'NOPE'. The final look isn't that much different to other techniques (e.g. even 'Cast Away'), but the massive VFX that went into every shot might justify it. Idk.
https://beforesandafters.com/2022/08/31 ... himpanzee/


As for digital back to film:
Donald Glover's 'Guava Island' was supposed to be shot on 16mm but Cuba's import restrictions led the team to shoot on Alexa LF and then print back to 35mm Kodak 5219 to get a 16mm look and feel (16mm would add too much grain due to Alexa's own noise).

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8858104/?ref_=nm_knf_i3

https://filmmakermagazine.com/107422-we ... ywi0y-21pQ
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostFri Sep 23, 2022 2:41 pm

FYI:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/nyre ... sContainer

Tarantino is the loudest evangelist for analog projection, but what if he's right? That digital projection is just big screen TV, in the unkindest sense?
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostFri Sep 23, 2022 2:56 pm

A good friend of mine just made this. It premiered at the very film festival he works at.



What’s inferred in JPs article is the fact that bootleg copies of films, often collected by projectionists are the only reason some of the more obscure films made are even available.

The illusion of the “cloud” and streaming means we think there’s all this content, but really finding more obscure titles if harder and harder. They just aren’t out there to even watch. Even Blu-Ray is finding a niche for this reason…titles you can’t see any other way.

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostFri Sep 23, 2022 3:04 pm

A few can be found on Mubi.
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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John Brawley

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostFri Sep 23, 2022 3:46 pm

The problems is that just like a real cloud, they move and disappear.

That’s a difference with having a physical copy.

JB
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Uli Plank

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostFri Sep 23, 2022 3:57 pm

That's the sad truth, for sure!
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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Steve Fishwick

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostSat Sep 24, 2022 8:27 am

John Brawley wrote:A good friend of mine just made this. It premiered at the very film festival he works at.


That's a great trailer John, I'd love to see the film too.

I grew up with film: I'm old enough to remember going to the cinema, as a small child in the 60s, awe struck by the silver screen. I had a Super 8 projector at 5 and later made my own films on the format. Then later still on Bolex H16s. I was a location recordist on Nagras and shot myself on BLs, SRs and Aatons. I cut my first films as a professional editor on 16/35mm. And all the while going to the cinema and never getting over the magic Xeon arc throwing light onto that screen of dreams.

But, a lot of it looked terrible. In the main, premiere, first run showings it would be glorious; by the time the battered, scratch dupes of dupes arrived at your average local Odeon, it looked less than stellar. I remember thinking why do films at home, on TV often look perfect (as opposed to TV drama) and yet in the cinema sometimes they would have, grain as big as golf balls, scratches, weave and bad sound. Not all of course. The best cinema experience I ever saw was the restored reissue of Hitchock's 50's masterpieces.

Digital theatrical Cinema has stagnated somewhat. The DCPs are very often only 2K and 4K is still rarer. The projector technology still lags behind the brightness of an arc through celluloid and the magic of that organic experience has somewhat been lost. Many cinemas are like sterile airport lounges, particularly in the Multiplexes, with no sense of occasion. Whereas once they were often veritable palaces with magical décor. It is possible to have a much better quality presentation at home and perhaps the best use of huge wall 8K TVs would be to show 'films on TV', at the cinema, rather than project them.

And yet I hope and believe that will all get better. I love the whole thing of DCPs. The ability that we can all have now to release a 'print' that way that doesn't cost £25K for one print. Although I admire Speilberg, Tarantino et al, I think they are wrong. In relation to the discussion above, I believe if you transfer to film, it is film, if you really want that. Cinema is still very much alive but it will unlikely ever return as the mass experience it once was. The Digital Cinema experience has to get back the sense of occasion the theatre once held; Film will not completely die but having the luxury to release a few 65/35mm real prints to select first run houses in Los Angeles and major cities, is fast becoming a vanity and rarity, open to very few major directors.
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timbutt2

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostSat Sep 24, 2022 9:21 am

Huh, looks like Sony is gonna be announcing a new cinema camera next week: https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news ... -next-week

I know Blackmagic isn't as big a company as Sony to make some many options, but I do love this idea of having multiple cameras for various purposes. So I'd love to see a series of Blackmagic Cameras all using the same sensors. So say URSA, URSA Mini, and URSA Micro type of series.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Sep 26, 2022 6:02 pm

John Brawley wrote:The problems is that just like a real cloud, they move and disappear.

That’s a difference with having a physical copy.

JB
Golden words
Try to find mainstream movies like James Cameron’s The Abyss, or Ron Howard’s Cocoon on streaming, then are missing in action of right acquisition.
I’m strong fan of physical media to have a physical version of movie to avoid it to disappear or … to be disneyished… recently I saw Splash, old movies where Daryl Hanna is a mermeaid that save the life to a guy who grow like Tom Hanks. Disney plus version is altered, cutter of some scene and others censored where Hannah’s hair grow to cover her nudity in the ocean…
I discover be cause I had many version on vhs, dvd, but I see for the first time…
Streaming only mean missing movies, today not only less important movies but also mainstream movies shooted from big name like Cameron and Howard.


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rNeil H

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Sep 26, 2022 6:22 pm

Marvelous discussion on this thread, one of the best discussions I've seen online in some time.

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carlomacchiavello

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Sep 26, 2022 7:27 pm

rNeil H wrote:Marvelous discussion on this thread, one of the best discussions I've seen online in some time.

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It’s a dreams’ discussion :-)
We cannot know about future, we spent time talking about good things :-P
Ah ah ah


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timbutt2

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostMon Sep 26, 2022 9:18 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:
John Brawley wrote:The problems is that just like a real cloud, they move and disappear.

That’s a difference with having a physical copy.

JB
Golden words
Try to find mainstream movies like James Cameron’s The Abyss, or Ron Howard’s Cocoon on streaming, then are missing in action of right acquisition.
I’m strong fan of physical media to have a physical version of movie to avoid it to disappear or … to be disneyished… recently I saw Splash, old movies where Daryl Hanna is a mermeaid that save the life to a guy who grow like Tom Hanks. Disney plus version is altered, cutter of some scene and others censored where Hannah’s hair grow to cover her nudity in the ocean…
I discover be cause I had many version on vhs, dvd, but I see for the first time…
Streaming only mean missing movies, today not only less important movies but also mainstream movies shooted from big name like Cameron and Howard.


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I have still yet to find Touch of Evil Restoration Cut. The one done for Criterion where they used the 58-Page Memo from Orson Welles to restore the edit to the way he wished it to be. It’s a far superior cut of the movie. Hopefully one day they get that version in streaming.


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Steve Fishwick

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 6:32 pm

timbutt2 wrote:I have still yet to find Touch of Evil Restoration Cut.


Love that film! "Morning, Mr. Vargas" - the long take that took many takes, because that simple line kept getting fluffed at the end. :?

Here, the BFI puts out some fabulous quality Blu-Rays and more recently UHD Blu-rays. I bought a fairly good machine and have bought a few UHDs. Some of them are truly amazing quality. Some restorations are as they were never viewed when new. It's ironic that we can only see film at it's very best, through digital transfer of the original negatives. Love physical media and treasure my collection of UHD Hitchcock's.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 7:34 pm

Since we're way OT anyway, 'Touch of Evil' can be difficult to watch if you ask me --the directorial control being exerted, even in the studio cut over which Welles had no control, is suffocating. But if anyone wants an insight into the detail which a master of cinema like Welles brought to the work, check out his 58-page memo written after he viewed the studio cut (once!):

http://wellesnet.com/touch_memo1.htm

Am not sure the difference is as consequential as some claim, in either cut; it's still the same B-movie, for which there are no real expectations of perfection or dramatic consistency. The whole thing is still preposterous, whether or not it's internally consistent or every detail coheres. You either love it or hate it. And it was meant to play on a double-bill, meticulous though Welles was about it.

The really fascinating studio hack job was Welles' "The Magnificent Ambersons", because the studio destroyed all the material that might have been used to reconstruct it. What's left is a series of disjointed scenes, brilliant in their own right, and with some stupendous blocking -- nobody could stage a scene like Welles -- that play like an abbreviated drama. You want to know where the rest of it is.

So cinema fanatics can only dream about what it might have been (the ideal situation!). When they previewed Welles' version for audiences in the 1940s half the audience said it was the greatest film they'd ever seen and the other that it was a total disaster. The studio went with the latter opinion, making drastic cuts and adding a few new scenes so badly written, blocked and staged Welles must have been horrified. 80 years later, the suits are still at it....
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:06 pm

John Paines wrote:The really fascinating studio hack job was Welles' "The Magnificent Ambersons", because the studio destroyed all the material that might have been used to reconstruct it. What's left is a series of disjointed scenes, brilliant in their own right, and with some stupendous blocking -- nobody could stage a scene like Welles -- that play like an abbreviated drama. You want to know where the rest of it is.


Orson Welles was a genius but also full of ego BS, a good deal of the time. Robert wise re-cut that and he was no slouch. The preview of Welles cut was pretty disastrous apparently.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:17 pm

While we're still on the subject; I was only introduced to the film via the Criterion Collection "Welles Cut" that was put together on DVD. The thing that struck me as impressive was another long shot that was so well orchestrated in the movie and most people barely notice it. They focus solely on the opening shot.

In fact, I think that the shot continues beyond this because the scene cuts away after this section and then when we return to the apartment the long shot continues. In addition there's another scene cut and then when we return a third time to the apartment the long shot continues. This goes with a story that Welles did a large section of the script in such a short span of time on the first day that he told the studio he was 2-3 days ahead of schedule after completion. I believe it was this scene. However, he quickly fell behind schedule again.
At first all was well on the set. Knowing there were studio spies on the set, Orson Welles planned his first day of shooting to start with two uncomplicated close-ups. He started work at 9 a.m. and had the first shot finished by 9:15. Then he got the second shot by 9:25. The studio spy was called off, so nobody noticed that the next shot wasn't completed until 7:40 p.m. Fortunately, that was a long take that covered 11 pages of script, so Welles ended his first day of shooting two days ahead of schedule.

I love the film as a study and as well as a film noir fan. Yes, Welles had an ego. But the man was pretty brilliant in his use of the cinematic language.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:18 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:Robert wise re-cut that and he was no slouch. The preview of Welles cut was pretty disastrous apparently.


Robert Wise was a studio man who made studio movies. 'The Sound of Music'? You really want to compare him to Welles? And take his word over Welles'? Welles also wrote extensive notes on the studio cut of "Ambersons". If you read those notes I don't think you'd want to say Wise understood the film better than Welles did.

That studio preview had a wide divergence of opinion, as already noted. And even if it was a disaster. What does that really say? Wise never directed anything as accomplished as the [original] scenes of Amberson which survived the studio (and Robert Wise).
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:21 pm

Have you ever seen, "Odds Against Tomorrow"?, "The Haunting", "West Side Story", need I go on. Welles was full of BS I tell you.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:26 pm

I don't care if Welles was full of BS in his public persona. He films are highly accomplished and innovative, far more so than Wise's. And yes, I've seen everything of consequence directed by Wise. If the movies themselves aren't sufficient, read Welles' memos on Touch of Evil and Ambersons, and then tell me he's a poseur or a dilettante.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:32 pm

John Paines wrote:He films are highly accomplished and innovative, far more so than Wise's.


Not all of his films John and that's your opinion. Greg Toland told him he could teach him everything about film in 2 weeks and that's why critics loved him, because they had never made a film either. He was his own worst enemy, with a monstrous ego. I love "Citizen Kane", "Macbeth", and "Touch Of Evil" and many more. But he is not top of my list of all time, for what it's worth :)
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:36 pm

Some of my favorite Orson Welles films: Citizen Kane, The Stranger, The Lady from Shanghai, Touch of Evil, and The Trial. I especially love the funhouse mirror finale of The Lady from Shanghai.

I'll also note that I love Carol Reed's The Third Man, which had a fantastic little performance from Orson Welles as Harry Lime.
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:45 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:Greg Toland told him he could teach him everything about film in 2 weeks and that's why critics loved him, because they had never made a film either. He was his own worst enemy, with a monstrous ego.


I don't see what his ego has to do with anything -- how many church mice make movies? -- and the critical esteem for Kane is so broad that your account can't begin to explain it.

He doesn't have to be your favorite filmmaker for the achievement to be obvious. And you don't even have to like his movies (I'm not sure I do) to admire them.

And yes, Orson Welles "stole" The Third Man -- and his influence was so strong, it took over the direction itself, despite the fact that he had nothing to do with it. He also wrote much of his own part, and got the cuckoo clock line wrong (it wasn't invented in Switzerland).
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Re: No BMD announcement of any kind., strange

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 8:54 pm

John Paines wrote:And yes, Orson Welles "stole" The Third Man -- and his influence was so strong, it took over the direction itself, despite the fact that he had nothing to do with it. He also wrote much of his own part, and got the cuckoo clock line wrong (it wasn't invented in Switzerland).


The Third Man was a very fine movie directed by Carol Reed. Yes Welles was, as ever larger than life, as Harry Lime, as an actor, but the fact you dismiss Reed and attribute the entire movie to Welles, suggests you've swallowed the pill, John, if you'll forgive me. :lol:

Citizen Kane has been esteemed largely by critics. It is without doubt a Tour de Force, but following your line, I would say that might have been down in a huge part to the brilliance of Greg Toland's innovative camerawork and the majestic writing brilliance of Herman J. Mankiewicz. Who Knows? We weren't there - we can only speak of what we like or don't. :D
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