Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3490
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostTue May 31, 2022 4:43 pm

I am shooting with a UMP 4.6K G2 and the BMPCC 6K in ProRes. While the BM6K is Gen 5 from the camera, the G2 is not (only Gen 4) as we all know. I read somewhere recently that there's a way to select Gen 5 for use with the UMP G2 so it automatically converts from Gen 4 to Gen 5 without having to manually change it every time. I think it was from Tim B but no sure. Anyway, if this is possible, how does one do it? Thanks! I'm assuming that he is talking about Prores and not BRAW coz I know that I can do BRAW Gen 4 in Cam and convert to Gen 5 in DVR. I'm interested in Prores while Gen 5 is not on G2.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2487
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostTue May 31, 2022 6:53 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:I am shooting with a UMP 4.6K G2 and the BMPCC 6K in ProRes. While the BM6K is Gen 5 from the camera, the G2 is not (only Gen 4) as we all know. I read somewhere recently that there's a way to select Gen 5 for use with the UMP G2 so it automatically converts from Gen 4 to Gen 5 without having to manually change it every time. I think it was from Tim B but no sure. Anyway, if this is possible, how does one do it? Thanks! I'm assuming that he is talking about Prores and not BRAW coz I know that I can do BRAW Gen 4 in Cam and convert to Gen 5 in DVR. I'm interested in Prores while Gen 5 is not on G2.

Using Resolve Color Management you can get the UMPG2 ProRes closer to Gen 5 from the Pocket 6K. You still have to do some color correction in Resolve. Hook did share a LUT a while back that is supposed to get Gen 4 closer to Gen 5 Extended Video if I remember right.

In Resolve I set my Default for Blackmagic RAW in the RAW Settings of Project Settings to automatically switch Gen 4 to Gen 5. The Default Color Science is Gen 5 in those settings. Since I made that my default I don't have to manually go change it every time I start a new project in Resolve. But this is only a solve for BRAW.

ProRes you still have to go through RCM and selecting the input color science and gamma so that RCM can bring it into the DaVinci Wide Color Gamut. The ProRes will still need some correction work to match closer still even with RCM.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline

ShaheedMalik

  • Posts: 125
  • Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:28 am
  • Real Name: Shaheed Malik

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Jun 01, 2022 3:29 am

You could use CineMatch to convert the 4.6K G2 to Pocket 6K Gen 5.
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3490
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Jun 01, 2022 1:36 pm

timbutt2 wrote:ProRes you still have to go through RCM and selecting the input color science and gamma so that RCM can bring it into the DaVinci Wide Color Gamut. The ProRes will still need some correction work to match closer still even with RCM.

Hey Tim, thanks for the info. That's what I thought that with ProRes, it's not as straight forward as BRAW to automate and that all this is done on DVR.

I am trying to look for Hook's Gen4 to Gen5 LUT for the UMP. Does anyone have the link to it?
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

Ryan Earl

  • Posts: 486
  • Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Jun 01, 2022 1:41 pm

In a regular YRGB “non-color managed” is there a reason not to use a CST from Gen 4 to Gen 5?

Then just cut and paste across clips.
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 1912
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Jun 01, 2022 2:18 pm

ShaheedMalik wrote:You could use CineMatch to convert the 4.6K G2 to Pocket 6K Gen 5.


you do not need cinematch in resolve
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB SSD/4x4TB/7101A 4x2TB 970evo+/HP1344/BMD4k/RadeonVII
macOS 12.6.1
BMPCC 6k pro (7.9.1)
meike s35 cine 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm
resolve studio 18.1.1
mini panel
speed editor
desktop video 12.1
intensity pro 4k
atem extreme (8.6.1)
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3490
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Jun 01, 2022 2:28 pm

Mark Foster wrote:
ShaheedMalik wrote:You could use CineMatch to convert the 4.6K G2 to Pocket 6K Gen 5.


you do not need cinematch in resolve

I agree. What I was hoping for would be a firmware upgrade that will give the UMP G2 Gen5 capabilities for Prores. Meanwhile, a gen 5 display LUT for the UMP will be nice.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2487
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Jun 01, 2022 2:35 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:I am trying to look for Hook's Gen4 to Gen5 LUT for the UMP. Does anyone have the link to it?

CaptainHook wrote:Yes, prob the easiest thing to do is use LUTs for monitoring on camera designed to go from Gen 4 BMD Film to Gen 5 Ext Video / Video if you plan to decode as Gen 5 in Resolve and use Ext Vid / Video.

You can make them in Resolve by using the CST plugin, but I have made a couple doing that and attached them to this post.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=156189
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3490
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Jun 01, 2022 2:55 pm

Thanks Tim!
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline
User avatar

Johannes Jonsson

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 2:35 pm
  • Location: Iceland

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostSun Jul 31, 2022 11:47 am

Anyone heard anything yet on Gen 5 fur UMP?
Johannes
Offline
User avatar

carlomacchiavello

  • Posts: 2047
  • Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:04 pm
  • Location: italy

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostMon Aug 01, 2022 9:17 am

Ryan Earl wrote:In a regular YRGB “non-color managed” is there a reason not to use a CST from Gen 4 to Gen 5?

Then just cut and paste across clips.
You can setup that from project all braw should be decoded not like metadata but like project and setup gen5, I setup my resolve in this way to have all braw from pocket6k and ursa in gen5.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3490
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostTue Aug 02, 2022 12:35 am

carlomacchiavello wrote:You can setup that from project all braw should be decoded not like metadata but like project and setup gen5, I setup my resolve in this way to have all braw from pocket6k and ursa in gen5.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Yes, I think most of us know that we can bring in BRAW from URSA 4.6K into resolve and set it up for gen5. But that is not the reason some of us are asking for a firmware upgrade on the UMP to have Gen 5 in camera. It is because some of us are required to shoot in Prores and we want to be able to do so with Gen 5 color science.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline
User avatar

carlomacchiavello

  • Posts: 2047
  • Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:04 pm
  • Location: italy

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostTue Aug 02, 2022 6:22 am

Ellory Yu wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:You can setup that from project all braw should be decoded not like metadata but like project and setup gen5, I setup my resolve in this way to have all braw from pocket6k and ursa in gen5.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Yes, I think most of us know that we can bring in BRAW from URSA 4.6K into resolve and set it up for gen5. But that is not the reason some of us are asking for a firmware upgrade on the UMP to have Gen 5 in camera. It is because some of us are required to shoot in Prores and we want to be able to do so with Gen 5 color science.
I’m agree with you, me too I would like to see directly gen5 in ursa, if I should send movies to other or other NLE


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk
Offline

ShaheedMalik

  • Posts: 125
  • Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:28 am
  • Real Name: Shaheed Malik

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostTue Aug 30, 2022 6:11 pm

Mark Foster wrote:
ShaheedMalik wrote:You could use CineMatch to convert the 4.6K G2 to Pocket 6K Gen 5.


you do not need cinematch in resolve

Why you say?
Offline
User avatar

carlomacchiavello

  • Posts: 2047
  • Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:04 pm
  • Location: italy

Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostTue Aug 30, 2022 6:19 pm

ShaheedMalik wrote:
Mark Foster wrote:
ShaheedMalik wrote:You could use CineMatch to convert the 4.6K G2 to Pocket 6K Gen 5.


you do not need cinematch in resolve

Why you say?
Is not clear about why you say…
If you told about matching cameras is simpler with resolve, if you study color management (there is. A great video on tutorial section of Blackmagic website) you match directly cameras without big effort.
Obviously if you shoot correctly exposure, white balance and similar lenses between cameras.



Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk
Offline

Howard Roll

  • Posts: 1875
  • Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Aug 31, 2022 10:50 am

If direct to Prores is the goal, wouldn’t it be better to burn the G4-G5 (film to film) LUT in-camera? In Resolve the Prores is derived from compressed Braw data, in-camera it’s created from uncompressed Bayer data.

Good Luck
Offline

ShaheedMalik

  • Posts: 125
  • Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:28 am
  • Real Name: Shaheed Malik

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Aug 31, 2022 8:51 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:
ShaheedMalik wrote:
Mark Foster wrote:
you do not need cinematch in resolve

Why you say?
Is not clear about why you say…
If you told about matching cameras is simpler with resolve, if you study color management (there is. A great video on tutorial section of Blackmagic website) you match directly cameras without big effort.
Obviously if you shoot correctly exposure, white balance and similar lenses between cameras.



Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


So there isn't a reason for your answer. I asked why Resolve's method was superior.

Cinematch uses mapped camera sensor data profiles + color space transform to match one camera to another.

A regular Resolve CST doesn't do this.
Offline

Mike Potton

  • Posts: 156
  • Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostWed Aug 31, 2022 10:23 pm

Howard Roll wrote:If direct to ProRes is the goal, wouldn’t it be better to burn the G4-G5 (film to film) LUT in-camera? In Resolve the Prores is derived from compressed Braw data, in-camera it’s created from uncompressed Bayer data.

Good Luck


I can see your logic, however the gen 4 to 5 conversion via LUT is extrapolating a more restrictive gamma/gamut (gen4), into a larger gamma/gamut (gen 5) which is not ideal. Plus lut calculations are less accurate and destructive vs the lossless option of just changing the gen version in Resolve's raw panel for BRAW footage.

Additionally you can't burn lut's into ProRes on the URSA's.

It's a genuine pain-point to have gen4 ProRes on the URSA G2, a strange position considering it's still a high end currently sold model.
Offline
User avatar

Jamie LeJeune

  • Posts: 1860
  • Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:33 am
  • Location: San Francisco

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostThu Sep 01, 2022 2:18 am

I completely agree with Mike about this.

Even if it was possible to burn the LUT in, BRAW compression is simply a spatial DCT type not a bit depth limiting or color subsampling type, so whether the compression happened before or after the LUT in the pipeline would likely have no visible difference in terms of the quality of the transformed result.
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
Offline
User avatar

Johannes Jonsson

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 2:35 pm
  • Location: Iceland

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 9:04 am

Ellory Yu wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:You can setup that from project all braw should be decoded not like metadata but like project and setup gen5, I setup my resolve in this way to have all braw from pocket6k and ursa in gen5.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Yes, I think most of us know that we can bring in BRAW from URSA 4.6K into resolve and set it up for gen5. But that is not the reason some of us are asking for a firmware upgrade on the UMP to have Gen 5 in camera. It is because some of us are required to shoot in Prores and we want to be able to do so with Gen 5 color science.


This is it, so many are required to shoot in Prores for some clients for fast delivery, same day delivery often and no time for conversion so there is a real need to be able to do so with Gen 5 color science in Prores.
Johannes
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3490
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 2:52 pm

Johannes Jonsson wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:You can setup that from project all braw should be decoded not like metadata but like project and setup gen5, I setup my resolve in this way to have all braw from pocket6k and ursa in gen5.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Yes, I think most of us know that we can bring in BRAW from URSA 4.6K into resolve and set it up for gen5. But that is not the reason some of us are asking for a firmware upgrade on the UMP to have Gen 5 in camera. It is because some of us are required to shoot in Prores and we want to be able to do so with Gen 5 color science.


This is it, so many are required to shoot in Prores for some clients for fast delivery, same day delivery often and no time for conversion so there is a real need to be able to do so with Gen 5 color science in Prores.


Crickets from BMD ever since this functionality have been asked for the UMP G2.


It’s very disappointing since I have a good cam in the G2 but in a multicam situation working with the P6K and P4K as “B/C” cam, I hardly can use the G2 as an “A” cam when filming in Prores for clients who requires Prores and a fast delivery.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

VMFXBV

  • Posts: 196
  • Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:41 pm
  • Real Name: Andrew I. Veli

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 3:56 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
Crickets from BMD ever since this functionality have been asked for the UMP G2.



Gen 4 for UM46K in ProRes? :?
AMD Ryzen 5800X
AMD Radeon 6800XT
Ursa Mini 4.6K
Pocket 4K
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3490
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 6:26 pm

VMFXBV wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
Crickets from BMD ever since this functionality have been asked for the UMP G2.



Gen 4 for UM46K in ProRes? :?

Not if you are doing a multicam shoot with a BMPCC 4K and/or 6K in Gen 5 and shooting in ProRes for fast delivery, usually the same day of shoot.

My G2 is just seating in the case for months mainly due to this issue.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

VMFXBV

  • Posts: 196
  • Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:41 pm
  • Real Name: Andrew I. Veli

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 9:59 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
VMFXBV wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
Crickets from BMD ever since this functionality have been asked for the UMP G2.



Gen 4 for UM46K in ProRes? :?

Not if you are doing a multicam shoot with a BMPCC 4K and/or 6K in Gen 5 and shooting in ProRes for fast delivery, usually the same day of shoot.

My G2 is just seating in the case for months mainly due to this issue.


I know, I'm asking for it :). Nobody is thinking about us original UM46K owners...At least there's Gen4 in CinemaDNG...
AMD Ryzen 5800X
AMD Radeon 6800XT
Ursa Mini 4.6K
Pocket 4K
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2487
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: Gen5 from UMP 4.6K G2

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 2:35 am

I’ve given up hope. I’m moving on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests