FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Suneclipz

  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:23 pm
  • Real Name: Erdin Faruzo

FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostTue Sep 27, 2022 9:33 pm

Hello guys,

im really new to the blackmagic society. I was using a GH5 for a long time and made an upgrade to the BMPCC 6k.

Dont be mad at me. It might be very often that this topic got raised but i didnt find the right answer or example.

However im really having problems understanding the noise topic of the camera. I know that the camera doesnt use a noise reduction inside like other brands would do.

But im really a bit worried about the noise in this stills i shot at 400 ISO.

I addes two pictures of a still i made today in a garden.

Whats your opinion? Im a bit worried... Is this normal?
I would really appreciate an answer. Thank YoU!

Erdin
Attachments
Bild_2022-09-27_233213159.png
Bild_2022-09-27_233213159.png (501.06 KiB) Viewed 1171 times
Bild_2022-09-27_233003437.png
Bild_2022-09-27_233003437.png (643.79 KiB) Viewed 1171 times
Bild_2022-09-27_232930826.png
Bild_2022-09-27_232930826.png (146.17 KiB) Viewed 1171 times
Offline

Sean van Berlo

  • Posts: 483
  • Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:33 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostThu Sep 29, 2022 8:09 am

It looks really underexposed.
Offline

ShaheedMalik

  • Posts: 125
  • Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:28 am
  • Real Name: Shaheed Malik

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 1:26 am

What F-Stop was the lens set to?
Offline
User avatar

AndreeMarkefors

  • Posts: 272
  • Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:41 am
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 5:04 am

Before you really get to know the camera (and after too, really), make sure to have one of the memory buttons set to 'False Color' (I think Button 1 defaults to it?) and use that to check exposure for new scenes/lighting scenarios.

The highlight side of light skin should hit pink. You don't want to see any reflected light go into red.

Don't make the mistake of trying to save direct or specular light AT THE COST of under-exposing what's essential in the scene. BUT, if you're more or less at the correct exposure and you get a little red in your false colors, it's not a problem to close down a little to ensure nothing is clipped.

Otherwise, if nothing is yellow or red, just open up the lens until you see these colors and then stop down from there.

I will say that I preferred to use a Rec.709 LUT and a big loupe to isolate the screen from external light. I found that I could trust that exposure. There are different schools of thought: some prefer always to maximize SNR and expose to the right (but then you'd often have to make substantial corrections to every clip in post as an initial correction), while I liked to be at the correct exposure from the beginning. To me, this means that the exposure is correct directly after importing the clips into a color-managed project.
Current camera: Canon R5C
Mac Pro 2019: 12c | Dual Radeon Pro Vega II | DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K + LG 55C8
MacBook Pro M1 Max 16" 10/32
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3486
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 2:46 pm

Erin, the images you posted is underexposed hence the issue at hand. As suggested above, use false colors to check for exposure is one way to do it.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

Beppe Pezzullo

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:53 pm
  • Real Name: Beppe Pezzullo

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 6:32 pm

Here we go with the same old refrain...
"footage is underexposed"... "it's user error"... And than proceeding with a quick lesson on "correct" exposure...
Although the footage is actually underexposed, is not 'that' underexposed. Exposure is also a creative choice. Why we should expose every image as if we are shooting for the news channel? What if the first image had a "correct" exposed talent in the foreground (your beloved pink on the bright side of the face) and you want to leave the background be 2 or 3 stops under?
To me that ugly video noise is a sign of a faulty sensor. I've seen awfulness like that only in footage heavily underexposed and than brought up in post. A healthy sensor (mostly if shot at native iso/0db gain) should never show that kind of noise, even on very underexposed areas, if you don't try to rise exposure in post.
Sometimes it looks like some users have a standard fanboys answer for every problem another blackmagic user may find...
Offline
User avatar

AndreeMarkefors

  • Posts: 272
  • Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:41 am
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostFri Sep 30, 2022 8:23 pm

Beppe Pezzullo wrote:Here we go with the same old refrain...


You seem to have been exposed to an awful lot of preaching considering your account is only a month old and you only have 3 posts.

You're very welcome to post your opinion, but I don't understand where the frustration comes from. The OP has an issue and a few questions and people are trying to help him get the best possible results as fast as possible,

A correctly exposed image will show the whole range from shadows to highlights. You can expose for a low-key look if you like—the camera can handle that. But don't expose in a way that you have to 'lift' the images in post. You'll effectively just be expanding the lower SnR areas.

There are certain realities when it comes to digital camera sensors that you won't get around. As much as we might like to focus on the artistic and creative side, a bit of technical knowledge is good too.

If you saturate the photo sites on the sensor, the performance will be very good—especially in its price class.

From a short post, it's very hard to know what's what. The first tips and explanations will often be the same basic things until we know more.
Current camera: Canon R5C
Mac Pro 2019: 12c | Dual Radeon Pro Vega II | DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K + LG 55C8
MacBook Pro M1 Max 16" 10/32
Offline

WahWay

  • Posts: 588
  • Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:54 am
  • Real Name: Simon Chan

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 4:10 am

I also experience lots of noise in the shadow or dark material with my BMPCC6K Pro. I filmed a graduation a couple of months ago and the black gowns had lots of noise its unusable on occasion. The BMPCC4K has much less noise and look perfect. If other people is seeing this then there is a problem.

This is most prevelant when shooing at 2.8k crop. However BMPCC4k at 2.6k crop has wayyyy less noise in dark and shadow areas.
Is this a thermal control problem, that could cause noise?

What is causing this noise and can it be fixed, if not a product recall even if the camera is outside the warranty? I hardly use my BMPCC6k Pro because of the pandemic and it was really my first gig with this camera.
Attachments
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 06.13.36.png
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 06.13.36.png (616.69 KiB) Viewed 883 times
Last edited by WahWay on Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3486
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 4:35 am

Beppe Pezzullo wrote:Here we go with the same old refrain...
….
Sometimes it looks like some users have a standard fanboys answer for every problem another blackmagic user may find...

Being new to this forum, you should have a bit of humility in your opinion rather than trying to stereotype the responses. You might just learn something.

At a glance, those images look underexposed. If it was with creative intent, we don’t know. So we need to get the OP to a baseline - exposing correctly with available tools. If the OP returns with more information or their “creative” intent, then we can try to discern why and not coming to conclusion the OP’s camera sensor is the problem. Intentionally under exposure or over exposing is not only done with the camera settings, but also adjusting with different stops of lights illuminating the subject, angles, and other techniques.

I’m not saying it could be a faulty sensor, but too early to determine, just at it is too early to interject that the early responses are standard BMD fanboy response.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

WahWay

  • Posts: 588
  • Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:54 am
  • Real Name: Simon Chan

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 4:49 am

Suneclipz wrote:Hello guys,

im really new to the blackmagic society. I was using a GH5 for a long time and made an upgrade to the BMPCC 6k.

Dont be mad at me. It might be very often that this topic got raised but i didnt find the right answer or example.

However im really having problems understanding the noise topic of the camera. I know that the camera doesnt use a noise reduction inside like other brands would do.

But im really a bit worried about the noise in this stills i shot at 400 ISO.

I addes two pictures of a still i made today in a garden.

Whats your opinion? Im a bit worried... Is this normal?
I would really appreciate an answer. Thank YoU!

Erdin


Its not the first time BMD has done a firmware upgrade and screwed up something that was previousely fine.
If you are running the latest firmware can you try downgrade it version 7.5.1 and see if you have the noise problem?

BTW I'm a BMD owner......not a fanboy.
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3486
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 5:37 am

WahWay wrote:BTW I'm a BMD owner......not a fanboy.

Same here.

Anyway, I might have some time tomorrow and since I’m going to test out the new M2, I will, with creative intent, shoot a test clip with my P6K, with some dark materials and underexposing it to see if I get the results you’re getting. I will shoot it in 2.8K crop in BRAW 3:1.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

WahWay

  • Posts: 588
  • Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:54 am
  • Real Name: Simon Chan

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 5:46 am

Ellory Yu wrote:
WahWay wrote:BTW I'm a BMD owner......not a fanboy.

Same here.

Anyway, I might have some time tomorrow and since I’m going to test out the new M2, I will, with creative intent, shoot a test clip with my P6K, with some dark materials and underexposing it to see if I get the results you’re getting. I will shoot it in 2.8K crop in BRAW 3:1.


I shoot at BRAW 5:1 and 8:1 you should'nt really need 3:1. Like I said BMPCC4k did not have such problem. Its ugly chroma noise. I get these noise on 6k and 4k crop too but its easier to see in 2.8k.
Interesting to know how any other owners have this problem?
Attachments
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 06.49.10.png
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 06.49.10.png (996.06 KiB) Viewed 866 times
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 1903
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 6:28 am

also underexposed

natural light is not enough for such shots!


here a not yet color graded shot with my 6K pro BRAW 8.1 film DR color managed (still in editing)
meike S35 35mm T2.8 ISO 400 clearND

Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 08.31.16.jpg
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 08.31.16.jpg (173.9 KiB) Viewed 847 times





.
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB SSD/4x4TB/7101A 4x2TB 970evo+/HP1344/BMD4k/RadeonVII
macOS 11.7.1
BMPCC 6k pro (7.9.1)
meike s35 cine 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm
resolve studio 18.1.1
mini panel
speed editor
desktop video 12.1
intensity pro 4k
atem extreme (8.6.1)
Offline

WahWay

  • Posts: 588
  • Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:54 am
  • Real Name: Simon Chan

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 6:52 am

Mark Foster wrote:also underexposed

natural light is not enough for such shots!


here a not yet color graded shot with my 6K pro BRAW 8.1 film DR color managed (still in editing)
meike S35 35mm T2.8 ISO 400 clearND

Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 08.31.16.jpg





.


Are you saying my shot is underexposed?
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 1903
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 6:56 am

WahWay wrote:Are you saying my shot is underexposed?


if you have too much noise in the picture, then yes
unless it would be a candlelight shot

tell us your ISO and stop


.
Last edited by Mark Foster on Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB SSD/4x4TB/7101A 4x2TB 970evo+/HP1344/BMD4k/RadeonVII
macOS 11.7.1
BMPCC 6k pro (7.9.1)
meike s35 cine 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm
resolve studio 18.1.1
mini panel
speed editor
desktop video 12.1
intensity pro 4k
atem extreme (8.6.1)
Offline

WahWay

  • Posts: 588
  • Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:54 am
  • Real Name: Simon Chan

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 6:58 am

Mark Foster wrote:
WahWay wrote:Are you saying my shot is underexposed?


if you have too much noise in the picture, then yes
unless it would be a candlelight shot


Then how do you explain similarly exposed shots on BMPCC4K handle noise a lot better?
Your sample is it 2.8k crop?

This is BRAW 5.1 at 2.8k crop ISO 400 f1.9 screen captured log file. The highlight are close to clipping if I were to grade this I have to crush the black to reduce the noise.
Attachments
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 08.10.18.png
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 08.10.18.png (775.45 KiB) Viewed 833 times
Last edited by WahWay on Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 1903
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 7:04 am

WahWay wrote:Then how do you explain similarly exposed shots on BMPCC4K handle noise a lot better?
Your sample is it 2.8k crop?


i saw no difference in noise level between my 4K and 6K pro with proper lighting and ISO.

no, the shot is 6K DCI with 2.39 output blanking in a UHD timeline
(small screenshot from a UHD playout)
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB SSD/4x4TB/7101A 4x2TB 970evo+/HP1344/BMD4k/RadeonVII
macOS 11.7.1
BMPCC 6k pro (7.9.1)
meike s35 cine 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm
resolve studio 18.1.1
mini panel
speed editor
desktop video 12.1
intensity pro 4k
atem extreme (8.6.1)
Offline

Beppe Pezzullo

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:53 pm
  • Real Name: Beppe Pezzullo

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 7:09 am

AndreeMarkefors wrote:
Beppe Pezzullo wrote:Here we go with the same old refrain...


You seem to have been exposed to an awful lot of preaching considering your account is only a month old and you only have 3 posts.

You're very welcome to post your opinion, but I don't understand where the frustration comes from. The OP has an issue and a few questions and people are trying to help him get the best possible results as fast as possible,

A correctly exposed image will show the whole range from shadows to highlights. You can expose for a low-key look if you like—the camera can handle that. But don't expose in a way that you have to 'lift' the images in post. You'll effectively just be expanding the lower SnR areas.

There are certain realities when it comes to digital camera sensors that you won't get around. As much as we might like to focus on the artistic and creative side, a bit of technical knowledge is good too.

If you saturate the photo sites on the sensor, the performance will be very good—especially in its price class.

From a short post, it's very hard to know what's what. The first tips and explanations will often be the same basic things until we know more.


Maybe it's just me, but I see a trend to dismiss user problems as user error.
And, while a lot of them are user error indeed, IMHO this is not.
I follow this forum (and some others camera manufacturer one) for long time, cause I need to keep up with news, potential issues an solution, I just decided to register recently to help a guy on the fusion forum with a problem that drove me mad just a couple of week before. I don't get why you think that a low post number on a forum automatically means I'm a newby.
Anyway, that's not the point...
Maybe it's my fault, since English it's not my main language, and you probably mistook me for a kiddo with a baseball hat, skinny black jeans and a gimbal. But I'm not.
I work in the industry since 1999. I'm a camera operator. I work on a daily basis with different cameras from different manufacturers, anything that particular production wants me to shoot on. Both broadcast cameras and cine cameras. I know what exposure levels are from a technical stand point, but I can assure you (and the OP) that, if the clip was shoot at 400 iso (base iso/0db gain for that particular camera system) and was not manipulated in post to bring up exposure, that kind of noise is not an expected behavior.

Peace.
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 1903
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 7:22 am

ok, here also a original file BRAW 8.1 film screenshot from my 4K (sell it this year)
T2.8 50mm 4K DCI ISO 400

Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 09.20.08.jpg
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 09.20.08.jpg (144.86 KiB) Viewed 814 times


and the flat from the 6K pro
T2.8 35mm 6K DCI ISO 400

Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 09.31.36.jpg
Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 09.31.36.jpg (159.04 KiB) Viewed 801 times


BRAW files has always noise
but i see no need to apply NR to my shots

.




.
Last edited by Mark Foster on Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB SSD/4x4TB/7101A 4x2TB 970evo+/HP1344/BMD4k/RadeonVII
macOS 11.7.1
BMPCC 6k pro (7.9.1)
meike s35 cine 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm
resolve studio 18.1.1
mini panel
speed editor
desktop video 12.1
intensity pro 4k
atem extreme (8.6.1)
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 799
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 7:28 am

Beppe Pezzullo wrote:I know what exposure levels are from a technical stand point, but I can assure you (and the OP) that, if the clip was shoot at 400 iso (base iso/0db gain for that particular camera system) and was not manipulated in post to bring up exposure, that kind of noise is not an expected behavior.


Beppe, as you know then, all sensors, from an Alexa to a humble Pocket, will show FPN at some point. They are all based on the same silicon, just the size of the pixels and therefore sensitivity, and the cost of hardware implementation differs. This is unusual in that the the 6K sensor is usually quite good in this respect and seemingly better than some of BMDs earlier cameras. Without knowing more circumstances behind the shots and access to the raw footage, it is difficult to say exactly why. FPN does usually rear it's head in footage heavily underexposed though, with this camera that would normally be about 4 stops. The pixel size on these is around 3.7 microns, which is not to bad for the size of sensor and should allow for reasonably clean sensitivity, in most circumstances. I have a UBG2 with the same sensor and have yet to see FPN, but then I have not underexposed by 4 stops :)
Offline

WahWay

  • Posts: 588
  • Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:54 am
  • Real Name: Simon Chan

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 7:37 am

Mark Foster wrote:ok, here also a original file BRAW 8.1 film screenshot from my 4K
T2.8 50mm 4K DCI ISO 400

Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 09.20.08.jpg


and the flat from the 6K pro
T2.8 35mm 6K DCI ISO 400

Screenshot 2022-10-01 at 09.31.36.jpg





.


Try some 2.8k crop?
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 1903
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 7:44 am

WahWay wrote:Try some 2.8k crop?


no, i do not have this project in DR18
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB SSD/4x4TB/7101A 4x2TB 970evo+/HP1344/BMD4k/RadeonVII
macOS 11.7.1
BMPCC 6k pro (7.9.1)
meike s35 cine 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm
resolve studio 18.1.1
mini panel
speed editor
desktop video 12.1
intensity pro 4k
atem extreme (8.6.1)
Offline

WahWay

  • Posts: 588
  • Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:54 am
  • Real Name: Simon Chan

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 8:00 am

The noise situation with my Pocket 6K Pro is actually bad enough for me not to use it and instead fall back onto the Pocket 4K. From samples and reviews I can see not everyone has that problem but at least some have. Although beyond the 12 month warranty even though the camera is still new and only done one gig do you think I should log an incident with BMD?
Offline
User avatar

Mark Foster

  • Posts: 1903
  • Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:59 am
  • Location: austria - no kangaroos +g*

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 8:29 am

WahWay wrote:The noise situation with my Pocket 6K Pro is actually bad enough for me not to use it and instead fall back onto the Pocket 4K. From samples and reviews I can see not everyone has that problem but at least some have. Although beyond the 12 month warranty even though the camera is still new and only done one gig do you think I should log an incident with BMD?


i don't hear my fan at all, even though it's in the tilta cage.

outside the warranty it will be difficult : -(
but try it
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB SSD/4x4TB/7101A 4x2TB 970evo+/HP1344/BMD4k/RadeonVII
macOS 11.7.1
BMPCC 6k pro (7.9.1)
meike s35 cine 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm
resolve studio 18.1.1
mini panel
speed editor
desktop video 12.1
intensity pro 4k
atem extreme (8.6.1)
Offline

Beppe Pezzullo

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:53 pm
  • Real Name: Beppe Pezzullo

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 8:57 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Beppe Pezzullo wrote:I know what exposure levels are from a technical stand point, but I can assure you (and the OP) that, if the clip was shoot at 400 iso (base iso/0db gain for that particular camera system) and was not manipulated in post to bring up exposure, that kind of noise is not an expected behavior.


Beppe, as you know then, all sensors, from an Alexa to a humble Pocket, will show FPN at some point. They are all based on the same silicon, just the size of the pixels and therefore sensitivity, and the cost of hardware implementation differs. This is unusual in that the the 6K sensor is usually quite good in this respect and seemingly better than some of BMDs earlier cameras. Without knowing more circumstances behind the shots and access to the raw footage, it is difficult to say exactly why. FPN does usually rear it's head in footage heavily underexposed though, with this camera that would normally be about 4 stops. The pixel size on these is around 3.7 microns, which is not to bad for the size of sensor and should allow for reasonably clean sensitivity, in most circumstances. I have a UBG2 with the same sensor and have yet to see FPN, but then I have not underexposed by 4 stops :)


Well, Steve, what you say is only partially true. While the noise is always present in an image, it should not be that visible (assuming you're shooting without signal amplification AKA rise iso/gain) unless you try to rise exposure in post. On a summer sunny day a shadow casted by, let's say, a tree, can be 6 plus stops under. But you don't see the noise in that area of the image, because it lives where it belongs: a shadow casted by a tree. If you try to bring up details in that area, than you'll see it, because you're amplifying both signal and noise.
Looking at the OP image, to my eyes it looks like it is at least 2 to 3 stops underexposed, but take a look at the stone well (is it a well?). At the moment I cannot analyze the image on a waveform, but it's probably around 30 to 40 ire, a little less than properly exposed 18% gray. Do you think that if I want to expose the dark side of my talent's face 2 stops under (so, for a general Caucasian skin, it will be 1 stop under middle gray) I should expect that kind of noise? This is not my experience with every professional camera I worked with.
Offline
User avatar

AndreeMarkefors

  • Posts: 272
  • Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:41 am
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 9:44 am

I have no quarrel with you Beppe. Here are some thoughts:

Beppe Pezzullo wrote:.. while a lot of them are user error indeed, IMHO this is not.

You admit that you see a lot of 'user errors' being made. But you don't think this is one—how come?
And we don't have to label it as an error, necessarily. It can be an oversight or a misunderstanding, or whatever.
OP says ISO400 and the images looks like it does. My mind goes to: not exposed correctly.

Beppe Pezzullo wrote:...you probably mistook me for a kiddo with a baseball hat, skinny black jeans and a gimbal. But I'm not.

If it matters, I did not. I don't assume anything about people here, basically. My comment was more about you referring to "a lot of history of apologetic behavior, but your account didn't reflect that. I actually assumed that you DID have some substantial forum history—just not here.


Beppe Pezzullo wrote:if the clip was shoot at 400 iso and was not manipulated in post to bring up exposure, that kind of noise is not an expected behavior.


That's a big AND. You seem to assume everything was shot optimally, but my take is that all we know is the ISO was 400. I'm more interested in everything that hides behind the AND in the OP's case.

My take is based on my experience having owned the P4K and the P6K (but I currently don't own one, unfortunately.) We might all have different expectations, but my view is: don't crop the sensor width and saturate your exposures, and you'll be more than fine.
Even a low-key shot can be photodiode-well saturated. It's a more technically correct approach, IMHO. You can then grade it down to taste in post. The look of the shot will be determined by lighting ratios between key and fill.
In fact, many "moody" sets you see in films would feel like well-lit offices if had you been there in the room. But with well-managed lighting ratios, you bring everything down in post for a low-key moody feel that still gives you a rich, fat negative to work with.
Current camera: Canon R5C
Mac Pro 2019: 12c | Dual Radeon Pro Vega II | DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K + LG 55C8
MacBook Pro M1 Max 16" 10/32
Offline
User avatar

AndreeMarkefors

  • Posts: 272
  • Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:41 am
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 10:33 am

Here are a few examples of available light footage in the early evening. Shot outside under a dark fabric "roof". Knowing my camera, I didn't hesitate to keep the lamps and lanterns below clipping and under-exposing my wife, with the intention of lifting her exposure in post.

These are untouched, out of camera via Resolve's Color Management in SDR to Rec.709: Base exposure that was shot, saving highlights. Open in new tab for 4k:

Image

Natural. Exposure lifted for a more natural exposure—the way it felt sitting at the table:

Image

3 stops were lifted in Resolve, to check the actual data:

Image

Natural, with minimal post to remove some chroma noise. and restore natural sharpness. These things are very subjective. I don't mind texture (another man's noise) at all, as long as it's not obtrusive, which I don't think it is here:

Image
Current camera: Canon R5C
Mac Pro 2019: 12c | Dual Radeon Pro Vega II | DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K + LG 55C8
MacBook Pro M1 Max 16" 10/32
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 799
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 11:16 am

Beppe Pezzullo wrote:Looking at the OP image, to my eyes it looks like it is at least 2 to 3 stops underexposed, but take a look at the stone well (is it a well?). At the moment I cannot analyze the image on a waveform, but it's probably around 30 to 40 ire, a little less than properly exposed 18% gray. Do you think that if I want to expose the dark side of my talent's face 2 stops under (so, for a general Caucasian skin, it will be 1 stop under middle gray) I should expect that kind of noise? This is not my experience with every professional camera I worked with.


Whilst I agree with what you're saying, Beppe, the only thing we know about these shots is that they were taken at 400iso - what lens and f/stop, were ND filters used, for example? The shots appear to be taken under foliage. in the shadows too. I am not being defensive about the 6K Pocket, it has of course it's limitations, just that I have not seen anything quite so bad from my own UBG2, with the same sensor. Nor in properly exposed shots have I seen any really objectionable noise as someone else mentioned. It could be useful with more information and more helpful to the OP, if they were to supply the raw footage and more detail about the shooting circumstances - maybe it is simply a defective camera.
Offline

Beppe Pezzullo

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:53 pm
  • Real Name: Beppe Pezzullo

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 11:38 am

Andree, my first post probably came out really bad, since you talk about frustration, when I actually was kinda of amused, considering that, as I saw the topic title, I predicted a couple of "underexposed footage" replays and than the correct exposure tips... and I didn't miss by much
So I apologize if it came out a little too bitter
Regarding my assumption, I simply assumed what the OP said. He never said anything about image post processing. I thought I was quite clear, when I said that that kind of noise is typical of a grossly underexposed footage post-processed to bring up the exposure. Probably I was not.
I also thought that since the image was already underexposed, was sooc. If that wasn't tha case, and that is the result of an already post processed image, than the OP probably shot with the lens cap on...
Anyway I recon we should stop this here, since our little misunderstanding isn't actually helping anyone.

On the topic of using an exposure index below the nominal base iso/Asa, it was common practice when shooting on film as is now with digital sensor, allthrough is slowly becoming less and less of a need with the advancement of modern digital sensor. Arri let's you do it, as Red, as Blackmagic. Even the half baked middle ground (fx3 to fx9) Sony cinema cameras let you do it with their CineEI mode. I agree with you that is a good habit, especially when shooting with dual sensitivity sensors at the high stage. On the low stage, on modern sensors, I don't think is that much of a need, but if you can keep your contrast ratio between the sensor latitude I don't see any downside, just advantages. When I take a look at the 3 stops lifted image of your wife, I see the result of a properly exposed image generated by a property functioning sensor. I can see the expected noise behavior. When I look at the OP's image I see the result of a poorly exposed image taken by a sensor that make it look as if it was already lifted by 3 stops. That is not an expected noise behavior, particularly the awful chroma noise on the neutral areas of the image (the stone well and the gravel/concrete floor)
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 799
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 11:45 am

I should add too, the reason I mentioned pixel size earlier, is because if you compare the UBG2, on this sensor, with a B4 4K window to say a PXW-750 4K ENG camera, you will see the Sony must have with a 2/3" 9x6mm sensor a pixel size of some 2.2-2.5 microns and yet they claim greater sensitivity, maybe 3 chips account for this, I don't know. But it was found on both the Alexa and Amira cameras under EBU testing that they were rather noisier than their images subjectively showed - they both (same sensor) barely reach 48db SNR, which disqualified them from Tier 1 UHD usage (not having true UHD rez was another major factor). However because they did look so subjectively clean, it led the EBU to re-evaluate how it measures noise - a waveform cannot tell you that. They have 8 micron pixels too. The fact that you may have shadow on one side of a face 2-3 stops under the other side does not mean you will necessarily boost that shadow to show the noise, it is clearly masking, either.
Offline

Beppe Pezzullo

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:53 pm
  • Real Name: Beppe Pezzullo

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 12:20 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:The fact that you may have shadow on one side of a face 2-3 stops under the other side does not mean you will necessarily boost that shadow to show the noise, it is clearly masking, either.


This is exactly what I'm saying, Steve. You should be able to underexpose an area of an image. It will get noisier as you go down from middle gray, since you get closer to the sensor noise floor and in a generic log gamma curve lesser and lesser data are allocated per stops blow 18% gray. This is how it works, and is that way on film too.
You can only alleviate that by rating the film/sensor to a lower EI, at the expense of less highlight latitude.
But as long as you don't lift the shadow area you will just get the inherent noise levels of that particular sensor at that particular exposure. And for most modern sensor is very low anyway even at extreme contrast ratios.
What I'm trying to say is that, in my experience, a P6k at 400iso shouldn't behave like that, even if underexposed 3 plus stops, unless you try to rise exposure in post.
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 799
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 12:39 pm

Beppe Pezzullo wrote:What I'm trying to say is that, in my experience, a P6k at 400iso shouldn't behave like that, even if underexposed 3 plus stops, unless you try to rise exposure in post.


Exactly Beppe. Clearly these shots seem greatly underexposed and have been perhaps boosted in post, or there is a genuine defect with the camera. Since the OP has not returned and this is their only single post, we may never know, so it really doesn't help either them or any of us too.
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3486
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 9:07 pm

This was just captured using the following settings:
Camera: BMPCC 6K, Sigma 18-35mm lens, 24fps 180 shutter, ISO 400, BRAW 5:1, 2.8K, Firmware 7.9.1
Workflow: ACES cct 1.3 Out transform to REC709

The image was lit and white balance to taste. Then exposure was measured using false color and adjusted to what is to me at normal exposure (middle gray) @f/1.8. ISO and shutter angle was not touched. This is what it looked like.
Normal Exposure.jpg
Normal Exposure.jpg (848.51 KiB) Viewed 506 times


I stop down the aperture by 2 stops, bringing it to f/2.8, to get this final underexposed shot.
Brought in to Resolve using an ACES cct workflow without any post correction. This is the underexposed shot. The blacks are looking clean and black. I only saw some noise when zoom in to about 300% in the black clothing area.

Underexposed (2 stops).jpg
Underexposed (2 stops).jpg (809.46 KiB) Viewed 506 times


This is what I would be expecting. Even if the image was underexposed, there should be very little to no noise in the dark exposed areas at all except giving the shadows a darker tone.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

WahWay

  • Posts: 588
  • Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:54 am
  • Real Name: Simon Chan

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSat Oct 01, 2022 10:40 pm

Well those look clean and rather less noisey.
My BMPCC4K at 2.6k crop is much less noisey than BMPCC6K Pro at 2.8k crop. The only different is 6k Pro uses internal ND. Could the internal ND be trapping heat and the increase in temperature not picked up elsewhere to trigger the fan and cause much more noise?
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3486
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: FPN on BMPCC 6k at ISO400

PostSun Oct 02, 2022 1:02 am

WahWay wrote:Well those look clean and rather less noisey.
My BMPCC4K at 2.6k crop is much less noisey than BMPCC6K Pro at 2.8k crop. The only different is 6k Pro uses internal ND. Could the internal ND be trapping heat and the increase in temperature not picked up elsewhere to trigger the fan and cause much more noise?

The heat could cause it but IDK and since mine is the original P6K, I can’t test.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests