Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

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jlaing96

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Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 4:59 am

Hey guys,

I know this feature has been requested several times, and I understand that this goes against best practices in the Film Industry. But as a YouTuber, most of what I'm filming is me reading a script. If I mess up a take, having the ability to remove the file immediately would save me a ton of time in editing.

You could implement it in such a way that a user has to put the camera into a "dangerous file management mode" or "amateur videographer mode" (with a ton of warning prompts) which automatically reverts back to safe mode when the camera is turned off and back on again?

Either that, or add an in-app unwanted clip flagging feature (visible in the file name) so I can go through a delete / sort unwanted takes quickly.

A ton of YouTubers like myself love and use BM Cameras, I'm certain there are a lot of user who would benefit from something like this!

Cheers,
Jono
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 5:11 am

You can attain this today by marking (or flagging) ‘good takes’ in the slate. Then in Resolve, you can just create a bin with a filter to just import all the “good takes”, disregarding all the other clips. Pretty much about the same idea as flagging clips to be deleted, just the opposite.

See page 98 of the BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera manual here:
https://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/ ... 1410810000
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jlaing96

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 7:26 am

Unfortunately I edit on Adobe PP :(

I wish I knew my way around Resolve, but I haven't had time to make the switch. So really hoping something can be added! Or if there is a work around for PP users.

Cheers,
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carlomacchiavello

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Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 7:33 am

jlaing96 wrote:Unfortunately I edit on Adobe PP :(

I wish I knew my way around Resolve, but I haven't had time to make the switch. So really hoping something can be added! Or if there is a work around for PP users.

Cheers,
Premiere can import metadata of files, braw and prores, setup for these wrong clip and you are ready to separate good from wrong clip also by premiere from metadata panel.

Delete clip in camera is ever a bad attitude, from the time of tape, I’m fighting with timecode hole created from bad wild shooter on tape from 30 years, and today with people that shoot delete and reshoot ever without format card in camera, with tons of problems, frame dropped, shooting cutted off be cause space was end (drone shooter that never format card and delete all clips and that time miss to delete).
Just to tell you someone. Me too I had yt Channel I had smart swatch from that I sign bad and good from app for pockets and ursa.
I suggest to learn the ingest part of resolve to copy verified only good clips to help your workflow and free up space during import. Premiere had the similar tool but with less options.

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Ellory Yu

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 1:43 pm

What Carlo said is right. To add to that, deleting clips on camera is a bad idea because it creates fragmentation and affects write speed on the media which is very critical when it comes to high bitrate codecs like those used in the BM cameras and pretty much any cine cameras.

Metadata in BRAW and ProRes clips are supported in PP using the supported tools. You should be able to do something similar, albeit the process could be different, to filter the 'good takes' and quickly get to the clips you need to bring it to the PP timeline.
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BennoZ

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 1:55 pm

I disagree that deleting clips in camera should be wrong. As far as I know all Sony broadcast camera’s have this option built in, and I think other brands also will have this option.
To delete a clip I have to press a function key, in the viewfinder appears the text: “Are you sure to delete the last clip? Y/N” and that’s it. Very functional option which I use a lot.
Also when you’re doing ENG work it’s very handy: there’s not much time to edit because of the short deadline, so the less clips the better.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 2:55 pm

BennoZ wrote:I disagree that deleting clips in camera should be wrong. As far as I know all Sony broadcast camera’s have this option built in, and I think other brands also will have this option.
To delete a clip I have to press a function key, in the viewfinder appears the text: “Are you sure to delete the last clip? Y/N” and that’s it. Very functional option which I use a lot.
Also when you’re doing ENG work it’s very handy: there’s not much time to edit because of the short deadline, so the less clips the better.


Eng is another planet, you have room between speed recording and media where you record (a limited number of branded card at high quality at high price), if you have a bit of fragmentation is not a big problems.

Sony, JVC, Panasonic, HItachi, and more had this kind of option, but...
not every time work fine. talk with some news editor about problems of database on eng cards of shooter that delete and record, delete and record files without a cleanup by format.

The same problems i saw on dslr, video cameras, mirrorless, drones, action and more...

today too much people use tool with too superficiality, and often they do not find the problems caused by these incorrect uses of the tools because they do not finalize their work.

Do you think is good for you? it's ok, but not mean is good for al people.
Most of people are not aware about fragmentation of supports, and also if you told, they continue to use in the wrong way and they don't care.
I know too much people that delete from computer single clips and keep on disks // cards good clips instead to do backup, and moan often about loss videos or dropped frame, and more and don't use format in camera.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 20, 2022 11:26 pm

This is a cine camera. I don’t know any high-end cine camera that allows deletion of clips in the camera.
If you need an ENG camera just switch.
Don’t approach DR with your preconceptions from another NLE.
Many features are better, some worse, most are different.


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Ellory Yu

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostMon Nov 21, 2022 7:18 am

BennoZ wrote:I disagree that deleting clips in camera should be wrong. As far as I know all Sony broadcast camera’s have this option built in, and I think other brands also will have this option.
To delete a clip I have to press a function key, in the viewfinder appears the text: “Are you sure to delete the last clip? Y/N” and that’s it. Very functional option which I use a lot.
Also when you’re doing ENG work it’s very handy: there’s not much time to edit because of the short deadline, so the less clips the better.

This is a Cine camera. It says in its name - Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera and URSA mini Pro Cine Camera. We are not talking ENG or DSLR here. Maybe it should be in the URSA Broadcast or URSA Studio, an I say maybe since it writes lower bit rate files. So don’t be confused. Also, I’m not sure why YouTubers are using the Cinema Camera in the first place. Maybe it’s prestige and show-off. And if they do, that’s fine as long as they understand the intended purpose of the camera. So deleting clips is not a feature since those Cine cameras are writing in high bit rate and possibly need disc segments to be contagious, meaning a fragmented disc will slow down the write. Don’t compare Blackmagic to Sony Or Canon, Or other ENG. compare to Red or ARRI instead then you’ll understand. None of them let’s you delete on camera.

If you need ENG, just get an ENG camera and be happy with it. YouTubers don’t need Cine cameras either. Lots of great mirrorless cameras like the Canon R series and Sony A7 series that will do excellent job at it. Use the right tool for the job and you’ll be fine.

I’ve (and Carlo too) shown the OP how to work around using the slate to achieve what he wants if he insist in using the Cine camera for YouTube work. This is not a feature that needs to be on the BM Cine camera line.
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jlaing96

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostTue Nov 22, 2022 7:01 am

I’m not sure why YouTubers are using the Cinema Camera in the first place. Maybe it’s prestige and show-off.


There are a ton of practical features in the BMC cameras that are incredibly handy for YouTubers. Features like SSD Storage, 6K (4k digital crop zoom), RAW, built-in ND's, great Dynamic Rage etc... And the price is well within range for YouTubers like myself.

We're not talking about a $50,000 cine camera here. In fact, given the affordability of the BMPCC 6k pro, I would bet the majority of BM Pocket customers are not using the camera's for Cine.

Regardless, I thanks for the info guys! I give the Good Take ingest a go.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostWed Nov 23, 2022 9:30 am

jlaing96 wrote:There are a ton of practical features in the BMC cameras that are incredibly handy for YouTubers. Features like SSD Storage, 6K (4k digital crop zoom), RAW, built-in ND's, great Dynamic Rage etc... And the price is well within range for YouTubers like myself.

Point taken but you’re not really going to use those features to your advantage that’s because when you upload to YouTube, as you know it applies compression and reduces to 8-bit. As for price, yes it is affordable but there are better and cheaper YouTubing cams in the market.

jlaing96 wrote:We're not talking about a $50,000 cine camera here. In fact, given the affordability of the BMPCC 6k pro, I would bet the majority of BM Pocket customers are not using the camera's for Cine.

You’ll be surprised how many uses it as b-cams. Hopefully, BM will make an affordable YouTuber cam for folks like you, separate from their Cine line. This will get to the purposefully built tools direction.
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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostSun Nov 27, 2022 1:46 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:Point taken but you’re not really going to use those features to your advantage that’s because when you upload to YouTube, as you know it applies compression and reduces to 8-bit. As for price, yes it is affordable but there are better and cheaper YouTubing cams in the market.


Huh? How do any of those features become redundant when converted to 8-bit? Literally every single one of those features prove relevant for YouTubers.

And why create a entirely seperate camera for something that can be addressed with software (user profile).

And I never said it's not being used for Cine, I said it's probably more widely used for non-cine (YouTube, Wedding etc..)
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostMon Nov 28, 2022 2:32 am

jlaing96 wrote:Huh? How do any of those features become redundant when converted to 8-bit? Literally every single one of those features prove relevant for YouTubers.

Ummm, More DR, RAW will not give you any more IQ when all you end up delivering is 8-bit. Digital crop, NDs, SSD storage, these are all available in mirrorless cameras too, that are more likely for YouTubers.

jlaing96 wrote:And why create a entirely seperate camera for something that can be addressed with software (user profile).

Because it is a Cine camera and features only relevant to the use for cinematography should be on it, not bastardized to be a general purpose camera for Cine and video or ENG. The concept of purposefully built product is essential otherwise we might as well use Still cameras for Cine cameras. There is a difference between the essence of a Cine camera for cinematographers and video cameras for videographers. I wholeheartedly feel that YouTubers fall in the latter group. We don’t need to debate this.

jlaing96 wrote:And I never said it's not being used for Cine, I said it's probably more widely used for non-cine (YouTube, Wedding etc..)

That’s the problem. The price point has made it accessible even it is the wrong tool for the craft.

Albeit the case, I expect that features relevant only to the craft of cinematographers should be in the Cine product line. Blackmagic or some other company can make YouTubers camera if they see there is a market for them. To date, I don’t think that’s been interesting to them. Of course, they don’t care if the camera is used incorrectly but sells to YouTubers as long as they keep it in line with the needs of cinematographers.

If you enjoy using it, then that’s great but don’t introduce features that will bastardized the Cine line. Let’s keep it pristine for its intended use. End of story. I think we have really went on the tangent trying to just reply to your curiosity. Cheers.
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jlaing96

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostMon Nov 28, 2022 4:57 am

Ellory Yu wrote:Ummm, More DR, RAW will not give you any more IQ when all you end up delivering is 8-bit. Digital crop, NDs, SSD storage, these are all available in mirrorless cameras too, that are more likely for YouTubers.


I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? The benefits of shooting a High contrast scene with a high DR camera is not undone when converted to 8-bit. Same goes for RAW... The benefits of freedom to change color temp and ISO in post is not lost once a video is uploaded to YouTube, so I really don't understand the logic there.

Also, you do realise that the majority of Cine content is streamed nowadays? Would you tell Netflix to stop shooting on Alexa?

Sorry to be so blunt, but I have personally shot big budget spots for exclusive use on YouTube where Komodo/Alex was used. The idea that DSLR's is only for youtube is absurd.


Ellory Yu wrote:Let’s keep it pristine for its intended use.


I have disagree that Cine Camera's are exclusively for pro's. The market has changed, the products are more affordable therefore the customers are changing too.

Nobody's suggesting BlackMagic make a DSLR hybrid camera here. It's simply a software change, which if implemented correctly, would literally be an additional option hidden in the menu of your Camera. It's not bastardising anything.

Sorry to say, but it feels more like you think YouTubers are stripping away the novelty of owning a cinema camera. But YouTubers and Cinematographers can coexists, and as these camera's keep getting cheaper, must coexist!
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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostMon Nov 28, 2022 6:18 am

jlaing96 wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:Ummm, More DR, RAW will not give you any more IQ when all you end up delivering is 8-bit. Digital crop, NDs, SSD storage, these are all available in mirrorless cameras too, that are more likely for YouTubers.


I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? The benefits of shooting a High contrast scene with a high DR camera is not undone when converted to 8-bit. Same goes for RAW... The benefits of freedom to change color temp and ISO in post is not lost once a video is uploaded to YouTube, so I really don't understand the logic there.

Also, you do realise that the majority of Cine content is streamed nowadays? Would you tell Netflix to stop shooting on Alexa?

Sorry to be so blunt, but I have personally shot big budget spots for exclusive use on YouTube where Komodo/Alex was used. The idea that DSLR's is only for youtube is absurd.


Ellory Yu wrote:Let’s keep it pristine for its intended use.


I have disagree that Cine Camera's are exclusively for pro's. The market has changed, the products are more affordable therefore the customers are changing too.

Nobody's suggesting BlackMagic make a DSLR hybrid camera here. It's simply a software change, which if implemented correctly, would literally be an additional option hidden in the menu of your Camera. It's not bastardising anything.

Sorry to say, but it feels more like you think YouTubers are stripping away the novelty of owning a cinema camera. But YouTubers and Cinematographers can coexists, and as these camera's keep getting cheaper, must coexist!

I don’t think you get it. Tools need to purposeful, not a novelty or something made so that users can coexist. Case in point, Blackmagic makes the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2 specifically for cinematographers and calls it their cinema camera line, so with the BMPCC. Then there is the URSA Mini Broadcast G2 and their studio lines, made for broadcasters. They have made it a point to separate the two purposes, otherwise why not just make one so both Cine and broadcast can coexist. That’s because it is back to “purposeful tooling”. And if they find value to make cameras for YouTubers, then it’s likely they would have. But since that market is saturated with all the YouTubing capable cameras with features you’re asking, then there’s no need for a Blackmagic to make and compete with other YouTubing camera. Red does not make one. Alexa does not make one. However YouTubers still use these cameras for whatever they want to. And that is fine. Do you hear Red or Alexa changing their software to support YouTubers? No. Why do you think is that? Because they are not cameras with features for YouTubers but for cinematographers, not even for broadcasters. There is an expectation that Blackmagic does the same. There is no need for cinematographers and YouTubers to coexist, and price is not the determining factor. Keep in mine that YouTube is a fad, cinematography is not. I’ll leave it at that. So, to end this back and forth, I say a big NO to deleting individual clips feature in lieu of the status quo for data sequential write performance. You can still have fun YouTubing with the BMPCC and use ‘good take’ to filter out your good take clips. Cheers.
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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostTue Nov 29, 2022 8:02 am

Ellory Yu wrote:I don’t think you get it. Tools need to purposeful, not a novelty or something made so that users can coexist. Case in point, Blackmagic makes the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2 specifically for cinematographers and calls it their cinema camera line, so with the BMPCC. Then there is the URSA Mini Broadcast G2 and their studio lines, made for broadcasters. They have made it a point to separate the two purposes, otherwise why not just make one so both Cine and broadcast can coexist. That’s because it is back to “purposeful tooling”. And if they find value to make cameras for YouTubers, then it’s likely they would have. But since that market is saturated with all the YouTubing capable cameras with features you’re asking, then there’s no need for a Blackmagic to make and compete with other YouTubing camera. Red does not make one. Alexa does not make one. However YouTubers still use these cameras for whatever they want to. And that is fine. Do you hear Red or Alexa changing their software to support YouTubers? No. Why do you think is that? Because they are not cameras with features for YouTubers but for cinematographers, not even for broadcasters. There is an expectation that Blackmagic does the same. There is no need for cinematographers and YouTubers to coexist, and price is not the determining factor. Keep in mine that YouTube is a fad, cinematography is not. I’ll leave it at that. So, to end this back and forth, I say a big NO to deleting individual clips feature in lieu of the status quo for data sequential write performance. You can still have fun YouTubing with the BMPCC and use ‘good take’ to filter out your good take clips. Cheers.


There's a very big difference between broadcasting and cine.

The difference between high level YouTubers and Cine is minimal. Both are using high end tools to create entertainment. Your comment about YouTube just being a fad, clearly shows your bias here. YouTube is heavily outperforming TV, how is that a fad? People like myself have been making a living off YouTube for years now. High level YouTubers are essentially small production companies comprised with the same team of people you'd see in a small studio. It's all entertainment in the end. And whether your shooting a movie or a 10 minute youtube video, it's all going to be compressed and streamed online.

Also, not sure why you're trying to convince "YouTubers" such as myself, that I lack the technological understanding of cinema cameras. All the while telling me that uploading to YouTube will somehow make Dynamic Range and RAW irrelevant? Completely inaccurate.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostTue Nov 29, 2022 9:35 am

To people working at that level, deleting single clips in camera will be the same threat as to cine makers.
Don’t approach DR with your preconceptions from another NLE.
Many features are better, some worse, most are different.


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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostTue Nov 29, 2022 2:04 pm

jlaing96 wrote:There's a very big difference between broadcasting and cine.

Exactly.

jlaing96 wrote:The difference between high level YouTubers and Cine is minimal. Both are using high end tools to create entertainment.

Wrong. There’s a very big difference between YouTube and Cine. The latter is a craft that requires skill, money, and high end tools for marketable distribution of narrative content. It is also an art form. The former requires a cheap camera and a laptop that anyone could post their content to share, calling themselves YouTubers and Influencers.

jlaing96 wrote:Also, not sure why you're trying to convince "YouTubers" such as myself, that I lack the technological understanding of cinema cameras.

Not all and maybe not you but the majority is.

jlaing96 wrote:All the while telling me that uploading to YouTube will somehow make Dynamic Range and RAW irrelevant? Completely inaccurate.

Wrong. I am telling you that those features do not help in making videos for YouTube upload. Streaming services like Netflix is not the same as Youtube. There’s a big difference in content control, delivery, and quality. And they fall into the level where skill, resources like money and high end equipment falls into. Occasionally there will be one offs that gets made from an iPhone but that is rare and far in between.

So far, we are talking about the topic of deleting individual clips that you want added as a camera feature. Several here already pointed out that is not a good idea for Cine camera. Since this is a cinematographers forum, you might take our suggestions for your workaround with the BM cameras. It’s a fruitless request since it is detrimental to high end high performance cameras. If you don’t agree then try bringing it on to a Red or ARRI forum, or stick with a forum or Facebook group that will share your sentiment. Sorry to be so blunt also, but this is not a YouTubers forum. I won’t continue responding to your comments here on as it won’t benefit this thread or forum. Good luck.
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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostTue Nov 29, 2022 2:06 pm

Pfff, I've unsubscribed to this topic.....
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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostWed Nov 30, 2022 7:08 am

As the OP has acknowledged, it's not "best practice".

Historically, filmmakers haven't been able to delete individual takes. Film doesn't allow that.

When videotape started to be used by filmmakers, it was possible to rewind a tape and then drop in a new take and over record a previous take, but it was considered very bad practice, because in the heat of shooting, it could be easy to make a mistake about where you parked the tape to start recording anew. I was taught never ever to do this.

As we transitioned to non-linear memory, it became more of an issue of ensuring consistent performance. High data rate cameras like the "cinema" cameras that record RAW or 10 bit + files need very consistent media performance. For a long time, existing memory for these cameras was right at the upper limit of using that media. A technical reasons not to do it.

Deleting a clip could affect the overall media performance in a way that meant the media could no longer deliver the advertised capability.

So you have a long history of TECHNICAL reasons, mixed in with PHILOSOPHICAL and WORKFLOW reasons for not allowing this feature....or as some would call it a dangerous trap for inexperienced users.

There's something to be said, in my view, about process. An enforced process of never deleting media, means you're never tempted to do it. It also forces you to be better prepared for your shoot, ensuring your HAVE enough memory and only roll when you're truly ready. To know your lines. To know what you're going to shoot.

Kind of like what shooting on film used to force you to do. That extra discipline forces you to WORK and approach what you're doing in a different way. Deleting a clip allows a kind of laziness in process.

And who's to say what you think is a bad take today, isn't a good take later on?

Look at what Peter Jackson did with his version of "Get Back", vs the original "Let It Be" film with the same source material. Two very different films. Can you imagine if the director of the original "Let It Be" could have hypothetically deleted the takes he didn't think were necessary for his version of the film? You can't make those choices when you're shooting or even after the film is made. You never know what's going to change and it's why you should try to keep everything as a general rule....

There's a logic to not making those decisions in the moment... Making it so you can delete a clip changes all of that logic.

I can think of very few times (none?) in my 30+ year career of shooting drama where this would have been a good feature to have.

So now we broach the sensitive subject of YOUTUBE as content.

I don't think the filming logic should really be much different for YouTube. It's just bad practice to delete clips in camera.

Should you do it? No. Could it be done technically? Maybe now that media is fast enough. But is that a good reason to start doing it?

No high end narrative drama cameras allow you to do so. The only ones that do tend to be lesser IQ codec recording "news" or consumer cameras.

Should BMD adopt this practice? What is the advantage? Truly? To same some time in editing? Vs MAYBE having a great take or moment that has a mistake in it that you're only judging self reflectively in the moment?

I don't think it's worth that trade off. It's certainly a feature that I would never want.

JB
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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostWed Nov 30, 2022 8:24 am

And then, we had situations where we would have deleted a clip (if it were possible), but later discovered that a part of its audio saved our butts in post.
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Re: Feature Request - Delete Individual Clips (or Flag)

PostWed Nov 30, 2022 2:47 pm

JB eloquently said it. Uli, very good point. I had to use audio from bad takes a few times.
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