Red is back on the litigation warpath

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Robert Castiglione

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Jun 14, 2022 12:33 am

I do feel that it is a bit of a sad story with Red though arguably the wounds have been self inflicted. They started off with such incredible energy, a great strategy, good intentions and a very loyal base - finally a high image quality at a reasonably affordable price for independent filmmakers - the Red One sensor had four times the resolution of HD. It was an alluring vision and I was absolutely on board! "Rendering obsolesence obsolete." Remember that?
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Jun 14, 2022 5:54 am

Robert Castiglione wrote: the Red One sensor had four times the resolution of HD.

It had two times the resolution, not four times. It had four times the amount of pixels in total.

Robert Castiglione wrote:It was an alluring vision and I was absolutely on board! "Rendering obsolesence obsolete." Remember that?


I remember that very well.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Jun 14, 2022 7:16 am

Yeah, that whole 4X the resolution of HD was a marketing gimmick. That was what RED was great at. It continues to today.

When it comes to the whole aspect of it all. I was a fan in the beginning because it had promise. Getting out of college in 2010 my school bought a RED One that summer. I got to do a workshop in the fall before I left the city to move elsewhere. Then I heard the issues the senior projects the class below had with it. I was lucky to have done my senior project the year before with a more reliable camera it turns out. Still, through that next year I started working projects shot on the RED Epic. The Epic was definitely better, but very pricey for someone like me out of college.

Arri had the Alexa then swoop in and become the favorite digital camera for top tier productions. Red vs Arri existed for a period when Blackmagic swooped in with the low cost entry point cameras of the original 2.5K and the Pocket.

Throughout all this time DCI Projection was 2K and slowly going 4K. In October 2010 was the first demo of a 4K Projector at SMPTE Conference. They showed North by Northwest restored for 4K. Yet, most movies remained 2K Projection for years, and most VFX were completed at 2K as well all the way up through 2016/17. I'm not even sure if VFX are completed in 4K too often even after 2017. I think Guardians 2 was the first one and it was shot on a Red. Either way, the point is that 2K projection dominated and 4K was slow to theaters.

Today, theaters are fighting to get audiences back. They are coming for the premium formats, which are probably 4K. But so many of the other screens are still 2K. There's no money or incentive for theaters to upgrade those projectors. Not unless they convert those screens to more premium format.

Television screens and streamers have easily switched to UHD and HDR.

Either way, that tangent was needed to illustrate that a lot of RED's BS marketing was always about more pixels as opposed to better pixels. Arri never relied on that. They had better pixels. Now they have the Alexa 35 with 4.6K and 17 stops. They cover 4K distribution fine. They cover HDR fine.

I say Blackmagic focus on the 12K sensor and improving it with more dynamic range and better color science. Focus on the image quality as opposed to resolution. They won that battle with the new non-bayer pattern. They cover 8K if TV goes to it. I doubt cinema will. Unless a new 8K IMAX Projector comes out soon.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Jun 14, 2022 7:54 am

It is a mystery to me why above 2k projection should be desirable for cinema when slow frame rate and motion blur is considered cinematic.

Too much sharpens would mostly be just distraction, expect for some documentary.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Jun 15, 2022 2:58 pm

I guess it depends on the size of the screen?
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Jun 15, 2022 3:08 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I guess it depends on the size of the screen?


It's certainly true you can easily defeat 4K by sitting in the back of the theater (or even in the middle) or across the room at home. Questions of perception aside -- higher resolution doesn't necessarily result in higher perceived resolution anyway, see Steve Yedlin as usual -- viewing distance is a frequent argument against resolution mania. To actually see in true hi res, even HD, you have to sit uncomfortably close to the screen, although the apparent sharpness of digital pictures is evident all over the hall. The next marketing push will likely be we need 16K so audiences can see 4K beyond the first 8 rows or 12 feet away at home.

The irony here is, you could write a history of cinematography on the evolving ways DPs contrived to reduce resolution over the past 120 years, rather than increase it. Then Red came along....
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Jun 16, 2022 5:07 pm

Well, fundamentally all of this resolution race is just a marketing ploy. I have to laugh at people who insist on purchasing UHD Blu Ray disks of movies shot on film older than 20 years since they are all naturally soft and for all intents and purposes look identical to their HD counterparts, and in some cases even DVD's!

As upscaling algorithms get better and better, effective resolution will go away as things will get upscaled as needed automatically and from whatever source format they originally came from.

Anyway...we're digressing and perhaps this should be a separate thread. Back on topic -- RED are a bunch of entitled jerks who leveraged a poorly awarded patent to hold the entire industry by their balls. The patent office made a mistake in awarding the patent in the first place, and it was probably decided by someone who didn't really understand the request. It's an example of when the system doesn't work. In addition, there is ample proof that the camera was already out and public before the patent was awarded which should nullify the patent. As I said, there are legal gears moving to nullifying RED's patent and hopefully this time around it will work. The first legal challenge was poorly presented and was likely more of a way to leverage RED into a settlement than an actual challenge to the validity of the patent itself. Hopefully the legal team has learned what not to do and will course correct as necessary.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Jun 16, 2022 6:02 pm

Due to the 50th Anniversary, and as well the show The Offer, I recently rewatched The Godfather and The Godfather Part II in 4K HDR. I watched on a 65" OLED UHD Dolby Vision screen. And, my conclusion is that it looked the best I had seen it in the last 20-years from SD DVD when I first was amazed at how great it looked to HD Digital I got around 2013. Now it looks better. The remaster is fantastic.

But there are moments where you can feel the softness of the film. I can't see a difference between the HD and the UHD resolution. I can see the difference having an OLED and having Dolby Vision HDR. That's where it looked really great! So the improvements were not resolution but in dynamic range presentation and having proper true blacks from an OLED.

The only reason I really like 4K is because it has packaged with it HDR. That's the best innovative improvement has been. So with the various streaming companies 4K HDR means I know I'll see a great image because I'll get HDR. 4K is meaningless.

I've said my part about RED and their patent. But if the industry wants to move forward beyond 4K resolution for distribution then the patent office needs to release the RED patent. It's anti-competitive. It gives a monopoly to a single company, and that's not good for the customers. That's how we should approach this. There's nothing special about compressed raw above 4K that should be patented.
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Mike Los

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Jun 16, 2022 6:23 pm

Backed by a libertarian billionaire that espoused freedom from formats , price , and obsolescence. Backed up by a dictatorial company president the company has drowned those lofty ideals only to become a patent troll becoming the very things its marketing said it was against. Early adopters paid premium prices for subpar tech as shown by Jinni tech. Run.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri Jun 17, 2022 6:37 am

Why so much negativity towards RED, they have contributed a lot and are probably to thank for that we have the BMD cameras on the price point they are.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri Jun 17, 2022 3:50 pm

It is possible to criticize a company's policies and leadership while still appreciating their products and innovations.

Why does it always have to be one way or the other?

Apple, Google and Tesla get similar reactions.

Yes, we can walk and chew gum at the same time!
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri Jun 17, 2022 6:18 pm

Negativity towards RED stems from negative aspects they have brought onto everyone as discussed fully in this thread. Making cameras and whatnot doesn’t make them immune to being asshats in other aspects.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri Jun 17, 2022 7:24 pm

At Cinegear Los Angeles last week, I saw much of the major cine cameras players showing their new wares (BMD, Arri, Canon, Sony, Panasonic) but no RED at all. However, most of the vendors who were showing their products like rigging systems and some lens makers were demoing their product with RED cameras.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat Jun 18, 2022 6:49 am

Most feature films are nowadays made with Alexa cameras (or Panavision film). They may not be the best in every aspect but DPs feel at ease with them and they are reliable and widely available for rent.

Some are shot with RED Monstros (with Komodos as B cam) by directors who have a special relationship with RED.
I can understand the negativity toward this company as they sometimes have an aggressive posture with war-themed stuff and the likes, probably inspired by early Oakley shades mythology.

12 years ago, I bought a Red Scarlet camera because I could afford it. I was pleased with the organic picture quality and the efficient handling of Redcode.

Once, the day before Christmas, RED company Honcho, a giant Canadian guy called Jarred Land, threw a challenge to anyone to replicate a german TV music video in 4K resolution in 12 hours.



The winner will receive a brand new RED Weapon camera valued at around 45K.

My partner at this time and I decided to give it a try for fun, as a challenge like this is not very common nowadays.



They were 12 entries, including ours, mostly by Hollywood crews using cranes and sophisticated machinery.
We immediately thought we were out of the game.
The one-man jury, Mr. David Fincher, a well-known RED aficionado, pretended amiably not to be able to choose a winner, so Jarred Land generously decided to reward every entry.
For some reason, my partner did not want to keep the camera so we sold it to a famous Belgian DP.

Even though I decided to mostly use BMD stuff now, I will be forever grateful to these guys at RED for their unexpected Christmas gift.

Just my two cents.
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Tim Kraemer

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat Jun 18, 2022 3:01 pm

timbutt2 wrote:The only reason I really like 4K is because it has packaged with it HDR. That's the best innovative improvement has been. So with the various streaming companies 4K HDR means I know I'll see a great image because I'll get HDR. 4K is meaningless.


I 100% agree on the HDR and about 50% agree on the 4k part. Everything shot on digital from 2000 to 2012 or so was mastered in 2k, so the UHD releases are all upscaled, but the HDR is nice. The UHD releases that were shot on film and not upscaled look really nice but the extra resolution is not readily apparent below a 9' screen, or if you are close, a 40" or more monitor.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostSat Jun 18, 2022 4:25 pm

Robert Castiglione wrote:It was an alluring vision and I was absolutely on board! "Rendering obsolesence obsolete." Remember that?


But it was a scam really.

It was a way to keep you in the RED ecosystem. It forced you to continue to upgrade your camera, at your own expense of course for a nominal discount. If you fell out of the chain, then you "lost" the upgrade value. And it was also used to pressure you into buying other products like the red phone.

I mean, if you made a commitment to buy the newest model when it came out and have a good relationship with your dealer, this motto could apply to ANY camera brand really...

timbutt2 wrote: And, my conclusion is that it looked the best I had seen it in the last 20-years from SD DVD when I first was amazed at how great it looked to HD Digital I got around 2013. Now it looks better. The remaster is fantastic.



We'll....film ALWAYS had the resolution. We're just sued to watching using inferior display and transfer technology. I mean just because everyone's doing 2K and 4K DCI transfers doesn't mean there isn't MORE on the camera negative itself.

I saw a visually stunning film a few years ago at the Sydney Film Festival and the filmmaker happened to be there. I complimented the director on how beautiful it looked. He told me it was shot mostly on OLD Russian LOMO anamorphic lenses and that the reason it looked so good was that it was a brand new answer print(first generation)

We're so used to seeing film scanned and then DI'd I really think we've forgotten how good film itself looks projected and how much there is in that original camera negative.

That's why a film can look better today than it did when it was first released.

Kim Janson wrote:Why so much negativity towards RED, they have contributed a lot and are probably to thank for that we have the BMD cameras on the price point they are.



They have done a lot to introduce raw workflows, but they are an unethical company in my view. I've seen them force filmmakers to sign NDAs before they would "help" with problems that are because of their own cameras. Maybe this is why we don't often hear of issues working with RED cameras. I've personally had issues in the past with dealing with them in similar circumstances. I think they make some nice cameras, but working with Red themselves and the culture that THEY proudly cultivate doesn't sit well with me.

And frankly, I was there at the beginning of BMD getting into cameras, and it wasn't anything to do with RED.

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Nathan_H

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Jul 11, 2022 9:20 am

Interesting share of experience John, as always.... NDAs ...wow.


Seems Nikon isn't backing of.... wonders if RED is gonna come up with some "new tech" in the next months....

https://www.cined.com/nikon-z-9-firmware-v2-10-released-n-raw-is-here-to-stay/


Their pattent is due to expire in April 2028.... if they can hold on to it... what happens with them once every camera company will have their RAW codec / workflow established....
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Jul 11, 2022 10:01 am

Six years are a long time in digital technology. We may have some recording technologies by then which make that patent unimportant.
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Tim Kraemer

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 1:25 am

Booooooom!!!! Looks like Nikon is putting the smack down on this lawsuit....

https://ymcinema.com/2022/09/11/nikon-d ... s-lawsuit/
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 3:12 am

Apple (who could buy Nikon with cash) put the smackdown on the lawsuit as well... A legal precedent only gets stronger over time. The lawyers will quote Red V Sony, Apple, Blackmagic, Nikon, Z Cam, Kinefinity, et al. Are Nikon's lawyers better than Apple or Sony's? Probably not, in five years it will be academic.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 9:22 am

Howard Roll wrote:Apple (who could buy Nikon with cash) put the smackdown on the lawsuit as well... A legal precedent only gets stronger over time. The lawyers will quote Red V Sony, Apple, Blackmagic, Nikon, Z Cam, Kinefinity, et al. Are Nikon's lawyers better than Apple or Sony's? Probably not, in five years it will be academic.

Good Luck


In my opinion, you can't quantify "talent" (as in lawyers) by how much money a company has. AMD vs Intel. AMD is like 10x smaller money wise and their engineers still make great products that are equivalent or superior to Intel's offerings. In the server space Epyc cpus (especially the vcache ones) are so much better than the Xeons its not even funny.

I'm hoping Nikon has some of that talent type and kicks REDs patent trolling in the proverbial sack.

Here's to wishful thinking! Cheers! :cry:
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 10:32 am

Did the other lawsuits try the same defense that Nikon is pursuing now? As I understand it they're claiming RED sold cameras at events long before they filed the patent and therefore it's not enforceable.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 11:14 am

What was public information before they filled the patent is not patentable.

If they had NDA with the companies they sold the cameras, it was not public information.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 2:12 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:Did the other lawsuits try the same defense that Nikon is pursuing now? As I understand it they're claiming RED sold cameras at events long before they filed the patent and therefore it's not enforceable.


No clue. I also don’t know that a prototype demo or pre-order deposits constitute adequate “display” of the technology. Was Redcode on display or just the Red One? The UM46 existed more than a year before Braw, does that mean Blackmagic’s Braw patent is invalid?

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 3:16 pm

Howard Roll wrote:
roger.magnusson wrote:Did the other lawsuits try the same defense that Nikon is pursuing now? As I understand it they're claiming RED sold cameras at events long before they filed the patent and therefore it's not enforceable.


No clue. I also don’t know that a prototype demo or pre-order deposits constitute adequate “display” of the technology. Was Redcode on display or just the Red One? The UM46 existed more than a year before Braw, does that mean Blackmagic’s Braw patent is invalid?

Good Luck


Braw wasn't shown in public before it was patented.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 5:06 pm

Howard Roll wrote:
roger.magnusson wrote:Did the other lawsuits try the same defense that Nikon is pursuing now? As I understand it they're claiming RED sold cameras at events long before they filed the patent and therefore it's not enforceable.


No clue. I also don’t know that a prototype demo or pre-order deposits constitute adequate “display” of the technology. Was Redcode on display or just the Red One? The UM46 existed more than a year before Braw, does that mean Blackmagic’s Braw patent is invalid?

Good Luck


No because the codec is what is patented, not the camera.

I think this is similar to what Apple tried to argue, and it seems Apple, with much deeper pockets, weren't able to overturn the patent and this is why we still don't see Apple ProRes RAW inside a camera anywhere....

so I'm assuming Nikon will turn out the same. They're not arguing that their codec is doing it differently (which is what BMD do) but they are simply arguing the patent shouldn't have been granted in the first place.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 10:36 am

John Brawley wrote:No because the codec is what is patented, not the camera.

I think this is similar to what Apple tried to argue, and it seems Apple, with much deeper pockets, weren't able to overturn the patent and this is why we still don't see Apple ProRes RAW inside a camera anywhere....

so I'm assuming Nikon will turn out the same. They're not arguing that their codec is doing it differently (which is what BMD do) but they are simply arguing the patent shouldn't have been granted in the first place.

JB


Apple argued that Red used two existing technologies in its patent and therefore was unpatentable. Nikon's argument is different, claiming that Red lied and misled the PTO, and it looks to be following a path laid out by a certain youtube channel that viciously attacked Red and exposed their shady business practices to say the least.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 11:54 am

I'm sure they can afford better lawyers than someone following a YT clip …

Interesting strategy.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 12:28 pm

I’m sure they can and have, but it is interesting that their argument is almost verbatim to Jinni Tech. People were saying that their YouTube channel laid out the groundwork to fight Red’s patent. This makes me believe that they were on to something and Nikon is following through with it.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 6:36 pm

Jason Boyd wrote:...and it looks to be following a path laid out by a certain youtube channel that viciously attacked Red and exposed their shady business practices to say the least.


It wasn't a YT channel, as far as I recall, but the maker of the reverse engineered and much cheaper media drive, that was naturally sued by Red, for it.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 6:41 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Jason Boyd wrote:...and it looks to be following a path laid out by a certain youtube channel that viciously attacked Red and exposed their shady business practices to say the least.


It wasn't a YT channel, as far as I recall, but the maker of the reverse engineered and much cheaper media drive, that was naturally sued by Red, for it.


It was both Steve.

Jinni was sued for making RED media that spoofed reds own closed media.

He then posted about it, and I’m sure a lot of the information came from his own legal process, which may even still be going.

https://youtube.com/c/JinniTech

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostTue Sep 13, 2022 7:17 pm

John Brawley wrote:Jinni was sued for making RED media that spoofed reds own closed media.

He then posted about it, and I’m sure a lot of the information came from his own legal process, which may even still be going.


Thanks John for the clarification.

In any case I think this Nikon thing may have the tacit support of other vested parties. I too have my doubts of it's success but I think many are getting mighty tired of Red on this one. I admire Graeme Natress and what he achieved in the early days particularly, but the combination of raw and compression, as a patentable invention, is a very dubious and tenuous one. It's not his or Red's fault though - you can't blame them - but more the very loose interpretation the US Patent Office allows on prior art, which would not have flown in many other jurisdictions, were first application made there.

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise - we could still be using the cumbersome cDNG and the innovation that has followed, to get round this patent, is very creative. But I think no matter the outcome, it is approaching something like critical mass and the fallout for Red could be ultimately self-defeating.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 8:31 am

As of 1st November 2022 it seems the Jinni-Tech vs RED saga is off again... A re-upload with comments having, it appears, cleared some legal challenges fron RED when it was first posted.



There is also a comment from Jinni-Tech when asked if there will be a part 6: "Yes. That would be a look inside REDCODE"
So it would seem that JinniTech has, at least, has cleared some of the legal roadblocks from RED

Time to order more popcorn :-)

I don't have a dog in this fight so I am merely an ammused bystander.
Last edited by jamedia on Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 10:43 am

Yup,

While there is this topic on reduser :
https://www.reduser.net/forum/red-cameras/komodo/3803021-komodo-warranty-hell-need-4000-to-replace-sensor-after-1-year-of-use-be-aware

Which is the exact application of whats it is denounced in terms of behavior in Jinnitech last reupload.

Man, I had problem with my URSA's and Blackmagic have been nothing but incridibly helpfull and respectfull.

While RED technical advancement are super interesting, their behavior suck so much that I can't see myself investing in their system.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 12:12 pm

Long but nice video, Jim Jannard's guilty body language and brain freeze when asked when he had first seen the patent is priceless :)

I was a Reduser in the early 2010's when I bought the original Scarlet. There was something about the forum that rubbed me the wrong way but I couldn't put my finger on it - in hindsight it's clear it was the aggressive bigotry and worshipping of it's leaders.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 1:17 pm

At the end of the video it appears that the suite by RED against Jinni has gone away because RED didn't get their patent untill 8 months after Jinni were doing their thing. So AFAICS RED were suing becuase they were about to file a Patent. I wonder if this is why Nikon have decided to move now?

As we are all video people who is going to make the factual documetnatry and the "based on a true story" (with Tom Cruise, Matt Damon and Brad Pitt) film of all this?
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 1:35 pm

But that patent was about the mags, I don't think that's related to the Nikon lawsuit.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 3:13 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:But that patent was about the mags, I don't think that's related to the Nikon lawsuit.

Agreed that the Jinni-RED dispute was about the magazines (initially Jinni went on to a lot of other things including the sensors see all 5 videos) but the patent refered to AFAICS is the basic RED patent covering their system and Redcode ie the raw image recording which alegedly included recording on to the magazines. (this is from memory so I stand to be corrected).

If Jinni have blown a hole in part of that that due to the dates meaning Jinni already had technology out before the Red Patent which is why Red did not try and patent in the EU or UK (the EU/UK Patent offices work differently and I dbout the patent would have stood) then the Patent is dubious and flawed in the US. this may be enough for Nikon to pull at the thread and if A is not valit (prior art) then B is not safe so C can not hold etc.

NOTE this is legaly unqualified suposition. I have experience of electronics, firmware and trademarks but not patents or patent law.
I am just 2nd guessing and ordering popcorn.

I am unlikely to own any RED gest so it is just entertainment for me.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 3:23 pm

Jini mags were introduced years after the patent was filed.

The question he brings up is an attempt to invalidate the patent that covers recording media by showing it shouldn’t have been granted in the first place.

If you can show that a product is in the public domain before the filing date and/ or was “obvious” then it can’t be considered novel and therefore isn’t patentable. This is also what Nikon are arguing.

This is also similar to the approach Apple took, though I think they were arguing more the idea that it was an obvious invention / had already been done.

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 4:59 pm

The lawsuit is about patent # 9,596,385.
It was granted 8 month after Jinnitech was accused of infringement of the patent.
It’s in the video, 32:55 to 37:23.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 5:09 pm

Bunk Timmer wrote:The lawsuit is about patent # 9,596,385.
It was granted 8 month after Jinnitech was accused of infringement of the patent.
It’s in the video, 32:55 to 37:23.


Yes it was filed 2 days(?) after RED started having a go at Jinni. They expedited it at, apparently, great expence and it took 8 months. How long does it usually take?

I am not sure if this is the same Patent John is on about?
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 2:47 pm

John Brawley wrote:Jini mags were introduced years after the patent was filed.

The question he brings up is an attempt to invalidate the patent that covers recording media by showing it shouldn’t have been granted in the first place.

If you can show that a product is in the public domain before the filing date and/ or was “obvious” then it can’t be considered novel and therefore isn’t patentable. This is also what Nikon are arguing.

This is also similar to the approach Apple took, though I think they were arguing more the idea that it was an obvious invention / had already been done.

JB

There are two different patents in question.
The REDCODE patent and the REDMAG patent.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 4:53 pm

RED leaders remind me of this guy.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 6:54 pm

jamedia wrote:Yes it was filed 2 days(?) after RED started having a go at Jinni. They expedited it at, apparently, great expence and it took 8 months. How long does it usually take?

I am not sure if this is the same Patent John is on about?


The patent you are referencing is the original 2007 patent that RED updated in 2017. It still maintains the 20 year expiration from the original date.

I'm not sure how effective it would be at attacking companies for selling a 3rd party mag, if a bigger company were to attempt it.

"RED further asserts that its memory devices, including the Mini-Mag, are covered by the claims of U.S Patent No. 9, 596, 385."

https://casetext.com/case/jinni-tech-v-redcom

ShaheedMalik wrote:There are two different patents in question.
The REDCODE patent and the REDMAG patent.


Is there a REDMAG patent specifically? It looks like they are using the term "eco system" to encapsulate the mag under the original patent. My impression is that RED sued Jinni Tech first and Jinni Tech alleged they were defamed on RED USER and counter sued. The Jinni Tech mags didn't gain any sales traction and as a smaller company became weighed down with legal fees.

That is what I believe I read in the Jinni Tech vs RED appeal after Jinni Tech's lawsuit was dismissed.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 10:12 pm

I believe RED claim that the mini mag they make is covered by their REDCODE patent because the media (mini mag) is part of the REDCODE process.

Which is why you HAVE to buy their mini mags.

What Jini is arguing is that there’s no unicorn blood or special thing that’s done to the red mags. They simply have an encryption that means you can only use RED mags as media and he figured out how to use his mags to spoof the handshake that the camera wants to “see” a red mag.

RED argue that their special mags are integral to REDCODE working and thus are covered as part of the REDCODE patent.

Jini argues there’s nothing special other than an encryption that only allows RED sold mags and does nothing at all to make REDCODE work, despite many informal claims by senior RED management on their own forum (which is also quoted in the above)

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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 10:22 pm

John Brawley wrote:I believe RED claim that the mini mag they make is covered by their REDCODE patent because the media (mini mag) is part of the REDCODE process.

Which is why you HAVE to buy their mini mags.

What Jini is arguing is that there’s no unicorn blood or special thing that’s done to the red mags. They simply have an encryption that means you can only use RED mags as media and he figured out how to use his mags to spoof the handshake that the camera wants to “see” a red mag.

RED argue that their special mags are integral to REDCODE working and thus are covered as part of the REDCODE patent.

Jini argues there’s nothing special other than an encryption that only allows RED sold mags and does nothing at all to make REDCODE work, despite many informal claims by senior RED management on their own forum (which is also quoted in the above)

JB


The interface is nothing special either. Scrambling some pins on a standard interface using a chinese adapter and descrambling them at the other end also has nothing to do with software and its extra anti- consumer.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 10:50 pm

How RED label Redmags 'Made In USA' when all parts are dirt-cheap imports from Taiwan and China is exemplary for the management's relationship with the truth and ways of operating.

I believe their company ends together with their RAW patent.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri Dec 02, 2022 7:16 am

RED got another patent granted for Video Image Data Processing in Electronic Devices and Compressed RAW:

https://ymcinema.com/2022/12/01/red-dig ... essed-raw/

Seriously - what's up with the US patent system? How is it possible to get this granted?
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri Dec 02, 2022 8:03 am

As typical with these RED patents, it is very difficult to see what exactly they are patenting. It seems to have nothing to do with technology or innovation but lawyers exploiting the system.
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Re: Red is back on the litigation warpath

PostFri Dec 02, 2022 8:58 am

Paging all those that said wait till the patent runs out….

This is very typical behaviour for a company that owns IP and wants to try to extend their patent.

It’s theoretically not possible but companies do this successfully all the time (if you look at pharma)

This is RED trying to re-up their IP.

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