The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

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John Brawley

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 8:09 pm

Chris Shivers wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
Many BMD cameras also use dual gain sensors, including their very first camera and the OG pocket.

The G2 is a dual gain sensor.

JB


do they, i haven't seen them talk about it in their specs? Does the 12k also have this technology or is it just in the G2


You’ll have to take my word for it or I’d be breaking NDA.

BMCC, OG pocket, 4.6K, 4.6k pro, micro and G2 are all dual gain sensor from the same sensor family with variable amounts of customisation from BMD. You can try Google for “Fairchild” and Blackmagic.

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rick.lang

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The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 8:21 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:… with the Alexa 35, ARRI invested a lot of time and effort to expanding the recorded dynamic range to 17 stops. They prioritized dynamic range over sensor size and K count, with good reason IMHO.


I’m just hopeful that greater useful dynamic range is also a design goal for BMD and they can exceed their current cameras in that regard by providing 15+ useful stops for their next camera. Personally I value that more than continuous auto focus, but either are probably more important than LF sensor size for BMD to maintain their mojo.

And I say that with the conviction that 4K HDR HFR will be our preferred delivery for a marketplace to be dominated this decade by 4K televisions with possibly 4K theatrical releases for the blessed few who will have that opportunity while shooting with BMD cameras.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 9:04 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:Just because there won't be 14 stops in the finished image (though current HDR10 is already 12+ stops), doesn't mean that there is no value to higher dynamic range capture.


Jamie, I'm well aware of that. But we're talking, for the most part, about shooters who aren't working in the broadcast realm. More stops, etc. is not going to make any difference in the quality of the work. And cinematic masterpieces have been achieved with far fewer than 14 available stops. There are far more significant sources of production shortcomings than 11 stops versus 14.
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rick.lang

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Aug 16, 2022 9:43 pm

True, John. But one relatively recent evolving change in the digital era is grading for HDR. It’s not really important today, but doesn’t being able to support the growing trend to view HDR at home on a suitable television make a higher dynamic range image capture a selling point of new cameras?

Although my Apple Pro XDR Display admittedly isn’t the ideal way to grade, it is in the ballpark allowing me to see the differences when grading for sRGB, Rec.709, and HDR10. Resolve makes it relatively easy to generate different grades for different audiences (web, HDTV, HDR). All can handle the same capture ratios and be graded acceptably, but the results for highlights with an HDR peaking at 1000 nits looks better. Most of the image sits around 100 (HDTV) nits or up to 203 (LG Evo OLED) nits, regardless, but viscerally pleasing when you can show higher values correctly (important even though it’s never going to make a bad story good).
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 2:15 am

One advantage that the 12K sensor/CFA may have is that half the photosites are clear (presumably like a monochrome sensor) and half are RGB which might absorb more light than they pass through. That might get them an extra stop of light or more. Perhaps tweaking their exposure calculations can pick up more dynamic range and still maintain good colour fidelity which no one wants them to sacrifice. More to it than simply a dual exposure with bits offset I think. Wish I knew more about it but I trust it’s something that they are going to achieve.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 2:30 am

I still think the greatest advantage of Large Format or Full Frame is that you have the extra frame size and extra resolution for reframing in post. This is most advantageous for VFX plates.

I was watching the Disney+ Light & Magic docuseries on Industrial Light & Magic recently, and they spoke about repurposing the old VistaVision cameras to do their VFX shots. The main purpose was the higher fidelity of the film. It's a worthwhile watch for sure because a lot of amazing information and history.

I have a feeling that we'll be moving in the direction of utilizing Large Format and Full Frame digital cameras for VFX purposes in the future just like we had in the past. As well 65mm as a large format is amazing for these purposes.

As Blackmagic Cameras like the 12K and 6K are used often to capture plates for the LED Walls and Green Screen replacement backgrounds I can see a great advantage to Blackmagic creating a VistaVision sized 16K Sensor for these purposes. Even going to 5-Perf 65mm Size and 24K (24,576 X 10,224) can yield amazing VFX benefits.

The thing that Light & Magic made me realize is that there are great craft that goes into miniatures and their use in cinema for VFX. As much as it's great that we can build so much in the computer, we now have the ability to 3D print all the parts perfectly for easy assembly into the model. And photographing the model has amazing benefits. So utilizing those kind of larger sensors with higher resolutions have beautiful results.

I can imaging marrying all the old school techniques with this modern tech to create amazing results. So, large format does have a part to play in that.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 2:49 am

John Paines wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:I highly doubt that, i'm pretty sure there will be a cheap camera that has true 15 stops of dynamic range.


"Pretty sure"? On what basis? The Alexa came out around 2010. Nobody (but Arri) has matched it for DR since, and not for lack of trying, and at far higher prices than BMDs. Those extra 2-3 stops are very expensive to engineer. Cinema doesn't require those stops, and nobody delivers graded Alexa material with 14 stops present anyway, but we're talking about numbers, and those are the numbers.


It is to do with LA-LA Land - Latitude, those 2-3 stops especially in latitude way the colours are rendered and consistent -5 and + 5 stops , it it matters so much on set, 2-3 stops Dr is huge difference.

Deep blacks and beautiful highlights in clean image that renders colours so pleasing.

It is the reason I went and picked up old 2K ARRI Classic over all new gen cameras and paired it with C7 FD adapter and FD SSC lenses.

Those 2-3 stops make life so much easier when lighting the scene and generally gives much niceer image and more redundancy to let go so and make errors under or over exposing .

When I first shot BMCC OG in 2013 I was gobsmacked how I could never go back to 7D Canon again and how
2 were so difficult to match and vastly different images.

Once I shot Alexa for the first time, I had similar awakening almost immediately even just looking through viewfinder.

I still feel the same when I take photo with my old but true medium format 16bit Phase One P40+ with 2010 CCD Dalsa sensor.

Something about 2010, great things happened at the higher end.

Those old Dalsa and Kodak sensors, just like ALEV Arri sensors were so expensive for reason.

Don't take my word for it, now is the time to grab old ARRI Classic and see it for yourself.

BMD cameras are right up there and for the money hard to get anything to look as close to ARRI images.
Where ARRI becomes really affordable is by being reliable on set and allowing more freedom to let go being more forgiving, that is huge dealbreaker, when time is ticking and you paying 10's of thousands dollars for cast and crew, you rely on your camera to do the job and gives you as much freedom as possible.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 4:20 am

In the interests of science a dual gain sensor doesn’t take two exposures, that was an hdr trick that Red implemented earlier on to boost DR but it came with a bunch of compromises. The BM and Alexa sensors use hi/lo parallel readout (simultaneous) to achieve greater DR. The 12K kinda uses a similar effect with the clear/wideband pixels and the filtered/narrowband pixels. A braw pixel is the sum of several pixels including both wide and narrowband pixels.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 9:21 am

John Paines wrote:
"Pretty sure"? On what basis? The Alexa came out around 2010. Nobody (but Arri) has matched it for DR since, and not for lack of trying, and at far higher prices than BMDs. Those extra 2-3 stops are very expensive to engineer. Cinema doesn't require those stops, and nobody delivers graded Alexa material with 14 stops present anyway, but we're talking about numbers, and those are the numbers.


Because camera manufacturers are worried about the other specs of the sensor. Like how much resolution can you get. You have sensors that are 6k, 5k, 8k, and 12k. Not to knock the ursa 12k, i have it and it's a nice image. But Arri focus is different. They are highly focused on image quality, their cameras barely reach 4K. The only reason why it would reach there is to be Netflix compliant. Arri is focused on getting the most quality out of the image. They are not in the resolution race, which I wish other companies thought like Arri. If other companies were focused on IQ, I wouldn't doubt that we would see sensors reach the 15+ stops range.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 7:56 pm

Darko Djerich wrote:It is to do with LA-LA Land - Latitude, those 2-3 stops especially in latitude way the colours are rendered and consistent -5 and + 5 stops , it it matters so much on set, 2-3 stops Dr is huge difference.


I don't know about "huge" - how many stops does The Godfather have? -- but you'd never guess we were talking about the low-end of the market.

No need to sell me on the virtues of the Alexa -- or 35mm. But what's done in Hollywood, where camera costs barely even figure, has no application here. 15-stops as opposed to 12 is not going to make anyone rich and famous, make no-budget movies any better, or provide existential comforts (soon as you get those 15, some time in 2033, you'll want 17).

They're movies, not museum pieces, and least of all at the low budget end, where one of the attractions is lack of a faultless surface. Movies get into your system in all sort of devious ways. You don't need all those stops to do it. Are we making movies or dreaming about gear?
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 11:03 pm

John Paines wrote: I don't know about "huge" - how many stops does The Godfather have?
In the negative? As many stops as a standard Alexa captures. Gordon Willis wasn't shooting reversal.
There's a significant difference between the dynamic range of the camera negative used for capture versus the lower dynamic range of a print stock for distribution. In film processing, the cinematographer can choose to print it up or down to decide which range of captured stops to put in the middle of the range in the print, the rest being rolled off at the top and bottom by the contrast curve that was engineered into the stock. It's the same approach capturing wide dynamic range log today which is then transformed for displays that have less dynamic range than the capture.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 11:39 pm

Jamie, you really don't need to offer this instruction. Give the audience a little credit, for knowing that original negative holds more stops than print stocks. DR is a relative measure: look at a Rembrandt. What's the DR? It's tiny, and yet it's a whole world.

Claiming you need 14 stops to produce great visual cinema is nonsense, even with all the resources of Hollywood -- much less the stuff that most owners of BMD cameras are shooting.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 5:51 am

I thought that was a very informative post from Jamie. Where did he claim you need 14 stops to produce great visual cinema?

And thank you @Howard Roll for clarification on dual gain sensors.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 10:52 am

John Paines wrote:
Darko Djerich wrote:It is to do with LA-LA Land - Latitude, those 2-3 stops especially in latitude way the colours are rendered and consistent -5 and + 5 stops , it it matters so much on set, 2-3 stops Dr is huge difference.


I don't know about "huge" - how many stops does The Godfather have? -- but you'd never guess we were talking about the low-end of the market.

No need to sell me on the virtues of the Alexa -- or 35mm. But what's done in Hollywood, where camera costs barely even figure, has no application here. 15-stops as opposed to 12 is not going to make anyone rich and famous, make no-budget movies any better, or provide existential comforts (soon as you get those 15, some time in 2033, you'll want 17).

They're movies, not museum pieces, and least of all at the low budget end, where one of the attractions is lack of a faultless surface. Movies get into your system in all sort of devious ways. You don't need all those stops to do it. Are we making movies or dreaming about gear?


It is true, you can make film with Mini DV, Betacam, VHS camcorder or any DSLR these days.
This is artistic choice.

Personally, I like to struggle less on set and in the post, silly but true, used ALEXA classic is now in low end of market at $4000 - 7000 US dollars.

Your story, your choice, it can be done with many low end cameras and it has been done many times.

Sometimes is just more practical to have GoPro attached or small drone or GH5 or whatever it takes.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 1:18 pm

What matters more: Sensor Size, Resolution, or Dynamic Range?


As this review of the new ARRI Alexa 35 Super 35mm Sensor shows Arri just created the highest dynamic range sensor yet. And, they did it in Super 35! And, 4.6K!

Resolution isn't as pivotal as dynamic range. The new Alexa 35 is the same 4.6K resolution as the older Blackmagic 4.6K sensors. Granted it has more height resolution. So the question is whether Blackmagic can continue to improve the 12K to get more dynamic range out of it while keeping to Super 35 size?

And, remember what I said above about the benefits of larger sensor size and resolution for VFX. I think that is going to be the bets application of the larger formats, just like in the past.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 4:29 pm

Just after 21:30 in that video, there is mention of the bit depth used for ARRI raw on the Alexa 35. I’m not sure what is being claimed: 13 bit or 30 bit? Must be 30 bit because it’s described as a huge increase.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 4:34 pm

rick.lang wrote:Just after 21:30 in that video, there is mention of the bit depth used for ARRI raw on the Alexa 35. I’m not sure what is being claimed: 13 bit or 30 bit? Must be 30 bit because it’s described as a huge increase.


it is 13 bit, and this is a huge increase of 12 bit
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 4:46 pm

Thanks, Mark. That new Fujifilm camera using 14 bit up to 30 fps must be impressive.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 5:00 pm

Arriraw on the 35 is 18 bit linear encoded as 13 bit log. The increase probably has something to do with the requirements for 17 stops. I don't think 10 bits could hold them, though 12 probably can. Where else it might be seen (the new color science?) isn't clear.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 5:20 pm

rick.lang wrote:Thanks, Mark. That new Fujifilm camera using 14 bit up to 30 fps must be impressive.

Some crucial information is missing in the comparison being implied here — linear readout from the A/D conversion versus a Lin to log conversion for efficient storage. That difference between linear versus log is significant.

The Fuji is doing an A/D conversion to 14bit linear then storing that data as 10bit F-log2

Alexa 35 is doing an A/D conversion to 18bit linear then storing that data as 13bit log encoded ARRIRAW
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 6:04 pm

Thank you, Jamie and John.

As I recall BMD uses 16bit linear encoded to 12bit log. I wonder if BMD has considered going higher than 12bit log for a future camera although that’s going to bump up datarates. They may need to increase the linear calculations too and with that RGBWWW CFA, perhaps they’re already at the computational limits of their image processor.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 7:00 pm

Arri chose to go with 13 bit in order to keep the data allocation per stop the same as Arriraw from the Alexa. There wouldn’t be much point for BM to increase the bit rate unless they develop a dramatically new sensor. I think it was mentioned that G5/WDR can hold 18+ stops mathematically, 10.3 over mid grey, I couldn’t find any mention of the under. Rec709 can hold 7 stops under mid grey so 7+ is a safe bet for G5.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 7:48 pm

Fully share what is stated by timbutt2
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 9:49 pm

Howard Roll wrote:... There wouldn’t be much point for BM to increase the bit rate unless they develop a dramatically new sensor. I think it was mentioned that G5/WDR can hold 18+ stops mathematically…


Thanks, Howard. I can see that a new sensor could be in the works, but don’t really expect that yet.

It’s been a learning experience to see how the 12K 2.2 micron photosites has worked out. It has a place where high resolution is a distinct advantage. But let’s also hope they’re considering a 6K Super35 with 4.4 micron photosites if that helps BMD increase dynamic range and latitude.

Although I like what the BMPCC4K can do with 4.63 micron photosites, I understand the consensus BMPCC6K can do it better with smaller 3.76 micron photosites. The original UM4.6K uses 5.5 micron photosites and CinemaDNG Gen 3/4 looks very good in most situations. A more modern 6K 4.4 micron sensor might be enough of an improvement under $10,000. Might not look too shabby pitting Gen 5 against the ARRI Alexa 35 4.6K with 6.075 micron photosites that gather almost twice the light.

Perhaps I’m leaning too hard on the 6K RGB CFA colour advantage (capture 6K to deliver 4K) but I’m assuming with the RGBWWW CFA, 6K really is needed for the best 4K deliverables, using the same algorithms that enable the 12K sensor to deliver the best 8K.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 1:17 am

A 6K rgbwww sensor would have half the color resolution of the P6K as every other pixel is clear, what would be gained in DR would be lost in color fidelity.

Good Luck
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 3:53 am

The 12K sensor is far from usual, do some research, mine is likely flawed, it’s very interesting nonetheless. The green pixels compose only 1/6th rather than 1/2 which is the standard Bayer or “usually” subsampled YCrCb 4:2:2.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190306472A1/en

Attached is a color Sudoku for the sensor nerds.

Good Luck

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 5:42 pm

Howard Roll wrote:A 6K rgbwww sensor would have half the color resolution of the P6K as every other pixel is clear, what would be gained in DR would be lost in color fidelity.


I guess if you say so... not. I use the 12K at super16 6K several times a week and the color fidelity is great. Unfortunately I do not have a pocket 6K to compare.

I can tell you that the color fidelity from 6K super16 looks pretty equivalent to 12K, both in 4K HDR... and much nicer than my URSA4.6K (G1) and Pocket 4K... or any other cameras I have used.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 5:48 pm

Howard Roll wrote:A 6K rgbwww sensor would have half the color resolution of the P6K as every other pixel is clear, what would be gained in DR would be lost in color fidelity.

Good Luck


Howard, the clear pixels aren’t really clear, they’re actually called W for white.

While they don’t have a colour filter, they are actually ALL colour.

As described earlier, every pixel in a 12k sensor array is made of RGB and W(all colour) so I don’t think you can argue less colour resolution. They aren’t “just” w, they go through the same algorithm that R G and B photo site go to generate those summed colours.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Aug 19, 2022 5:54 pm

Please remember that humans see much more detail in luminance than in color.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Aug 20, 2022 4:09 am

Only the luma is summed for “all” pixels. The red and blue Braw pixels, sited at the white pixel, are the sum of a b-g, or r-g filter kernel arranged in a 4:2:0 scheme. To allege that the “white” pixels are the sum of all colors is incorrect as they only represent red or blue. Ironically, the rgb pixel sites only represent luma after braw encoding.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 10:42 am

John Brawley wrote:
Chris Shivers wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
Many BMD cameras also use dual gain sensors, including their very first camera and the OG pocket.

The G2 is a dual gain sensor.

JB


do they, i haven't seen them talk about it in their specs? Does the 12k also have this technology or is it just in the G2


You’ll have to take my word for it or I’d be breaking NDA.

BMCC, OG pocket, 4.6K, 4.6k pro, micro and G2 are all dual gain sensor from the same sensor family with variable amounts of customisation from BMD. You can try Google for “Fairchild” and Blackmagic.

JB

Fairchild was the inventor of this actually and that's why Fairchild sensor division is owned by ON which manufacturs sensors for Arri. 8-)
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 11:09 am

But not when Arri designed their dual gain sensors.

Which have been made by two different companies.

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 3:26 pm

Kim Janson wrote:About dual gain, is it actually 2 different gains on same exposure? If so why stop in 2.


With modern multi-tap sensors you can have currently one of two designs: dual iso ranges with a cheaper single ADC circuit design or the more costly dual gain design, with 2 or more ADCs; this is commonly seen as a dual tap where the left and right halves of the field are readout separately. It produces higher dynamic range and faster readout too. It is common in audio too, such as with Sound Devices use of multiple ADCs in their pre-amps, to maximise DR for 32bit float, in the MixPre series. This is the principal behind Arri's sensors and the reason they have such a huge dynamic range. It's a much more costly circuit design than say the Pockets dual Iso range and to quote Edmund Optics: "The performance of a multiple tap sensor depends largely on the implementation of the internal camera hardware".
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 6:57 pm

On this subject, Kinefinity have recently unveiled two new* cameras, one in LF and the other in S35.

Got me wondering if Blackmagic might take a similar approach with their next camera. One form factor but two different sensor sizes, and some price variation to reflect that. Either way, I think I've said on here before that LF isn't a fad that's going away any time soon, and Kinefinity coming out with these cameras proves that IMO.

*It's unclear how new the sensors are based on what I've read. I believe the S35 sensor is new, but the LF sensor is the same as the Mavo Edge 6K but with better performance?
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 7:45 pm

Chris Cronin wrote:On this subject, Kinefinity have recently unveiled two new* cameras, one in LF and the other in S35.

Got me wondering if Blackmagic might take a similar approach with their next camera. One form factor but two different sensor sizes, and some price variation to reflect that. Either way, I think I've said on here before that LF isn't a fad that's going away any time soon, and Kinefinity coming out with these cameras proves that IMO.

*It's unclear how new the sensors are based on what I've read. I believe the S35 sensor is new, but the LF sensor is the same as the Mavo Edge 6K but with better performance?


at one point, I was VERY close to jumping into Kinefinity, with the Mavo LF, after playing around with some footage in Resolve. It was really nice. the lack of Raw video and a bit of unproven-ness keeps me away, though. There is small company in the UK that started shooting with Kinefinity and they said they really like it (wise guys, I think? or something...)

Anyway, I'm gonna keep holding out hope that the next BMD will blow us all away. No more "Updated P4k" cries! We want Next Gen!
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 8:22 pm

I agree that I want next Gen. No more building a new version of the Pocket or URSA. Time to create the next lineup of cameras that will be used for years to come. They have the 12K sensor they developed. So they can use that as a basis for the sensor tech inside the camera bodies. But it's the camera bodies that need to be taken into a new generation.

I think that I have spoken enough elsewhere about what I want to see in those body improvements. It mainly has to do with ergonomic improvements, i/o improvements, expanded features for on set workflow based on the extra tools we regularly use, and more integration with Resolve's post tools. I think that because of Resolve's growing popularity that Blackmagic is in a prime position to deliver new cameras that everyone will want to shoot with due to how seamlessly the BlackmagicRAW files work within Resolve.

So, whether it's Full Frame or not doesn't matter as much to me. I'll take Full Frame, but am fine with Super 35. What I want is to see the body improve. And, for the footage going into Resolve to bring more metadata that is useful. And, finally, that the extra tools we use with the camera integrate better.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 9:00 pm

I want global shutter, there are a lot of dynamic action that are pretty much impossible to pull off without it.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Jan 27, 2023 7:30 am

Spencer_Meyer wrote:I want global shutter, there are a lot of dynamic action that are pretty much impossible to pull off without it.


Global shutter is largely unnecessary these days, with many cameras, such as the Alexas, the UMPG2 and the 12K @ 8K, having less than 8ms readout. It's very difficult to see the difference between a true global shutter and 7/8ms, at least Hollywood doesn't seem to have a problem with dynamic action on digital now. It's also harder and more expensive to achieve the same DR and high framerate for slomo with global sensors as it is with a RS sensor.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Jan 27, 2023 4:19 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Spencer_Meyer wrote:I want global shutter, there are a lot of dynamic action that are pretty much impossible to pull off without it.


Global shutter is largely unnecessary these days, with many cameras, such as the Alexas, the UMPG2 and the 12K @ 8K, having less than 8ms readout. It's very difficult to see the difference between a true global shutter and 7/8ms, at least Hollywood doesn't seem to have a problem with dynamic action on digital now. It's also harder and more expensive to achieve the same DR and high framerate for slomo with global sensors as it is with a RS sensor.


I would say the UMPG2 was fantastic about controlled rolling shutter. I could never get it to show up, haha.
As long as the readout times are minimal, and not P6k-esque, I think we'd be ok.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 2:53 am

Sadly, I think we’ve seen the last of the blackmagic cameras with the pocket 6K G2. The reason I’m saying is that there’s so much competition, a lot of folks moved on from blackmagic onto RED Komodos or Sony FX3 and FX6. I myself have owned every blackmagic camera except the 12K. I sold the last of my blackmagic cameras a few months ago. I still think that the G2 4.6K, has the most Alexa-like image.

I love blackmagic as a company, and I love what they’ve done, they pushed the envelope and forced everyone to put out better cameras. Does anyone think that Sony would’ve come out with 422 10 bit in their consumer cameras as well as pretty much every other camera manufacturer now, if it wasn’t for black magic? I just feel like there’s so much competition out there with cameras that have great auto focus, that how does blackmagic even carve a niche for itself now at this point. The 12k was a flop, it rents for less than the G2 at Lensrentals. I think it’s better for BM to focus on other tools and software. I still would love to see a new blackmagic camera this year at NAB and heck, I may even buy it. :)
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 9:45 am

Will Vazquez wrote:Sadly, I think we’ve seen the last of the blackmagic cameras with the pocket 6K G2... The 12k was a flop, it rents for less than the G2 at Lensrentals.


I really hope your prediction is not true Will and I don't believe it will be. Whilst the 12K may not have taken the industry by storm yet, it is a game changer, with it's propriety technology and sensor pointing the way for BMD and Braw, in the future. The Pockets are still huge sellers and the Ursas in general have held up well in the marketplace. BMD has always been a bit disruptively left of field. Who else specifically designed a cinema/video ground up camera that had the form factor of a DSLR? Who else took the best of ENG and married it with cine form factor, as in the Ursas? And all at a price point that exasperated the rest of the industry. Braw is as important to BMD as Resolve is and for that you need cameras to use it.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 12:49 pm

Adam Langdon wrote:at one point, I was VERY close to jumping into Kinefinity, with the Mavo LF, after playing around with some footage in Resolve. It was really nice. the lack of Raw video and a bit of unproven-ness keeps me away, though. There is small company in the UK that started shooting with Kinefinity and they said they really like it (wise guys, I think? or something...)

Anyway, I'm gonna keep holding out hope that the next BMD will blow us all away. No more "Updated P4k" cries! We want Next Gen!

Completely agree in regards to the image.

If I was shooting a mid-budget indie film but couldn't spring for an Arri, I think one of the Mavos would easily be my choice. Lack of RAW is unfortunate but the rumour is that's related to RED patent trolling/making it difficult for other camera companies. Personally I think them removing the e-NDs from the new Mavos is a mistake, but I guess they want to keep selling the Edge line and apparently provide some mounts with e-NDs built in anyway? Suppose it's also helped them price the new Mavos more aggressively.

As for how unproven they are... they remind me of BM 10ish years ago in that regard, but also in how responsive they are to consumer demand. Even besides what they've done with the great Mavo body design, their UI game has come a long way too.

Kinda odd they've not shown any footage from the new cameras yet considering they're meant to start shipping in March, though.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 3:16 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Will Vazquez wrote:Sadly, I think we’ve seen the last of the blackmagic cameras with the pocket 6K G2... The 12k was a flop, it rents for less than the G2 at Lensrentals.


The Pockets are still huge sellers


Is this true?
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 02, 2023 5:32 pm

Will Vazquez wrote:Sadly, I think we’ve seen the last of the blackmagic cameras with the pocket 6K G2.


I get the same vibe as well based on how BMD has behaved over time. At least for a long while. They're patient and operate on their own schedule and I see a LOT more non-camera BMD products day to day than not.

Between major supply chain issues affecting the release of a camera and squeamishness from tech companies around the world I'm not convinced they're the lone wolf ready to jump the market and launch a new series of bodies - because the only thing I can imagine coming next from them would be a new generation of camera styles with how they've beat the Ursa and New Pocket form factor into the ground.

They have all their bases covered already. Super 35 in 4.6k, 6k, and 12k with dynamic range that they don't really need to improve on to stay relevant. They'd only be competing with themselves with how camera tech has "plateaued" and different demographics have fallen into one system or another.

The only thing that feels left on the table is that I do wonder if they're waiting for the dust to settle before investing in a shorter flange distance mount like L, E, or RF. I don't know that it makes for a company to release a new EF Mount camera.

I hope I'm wrong!
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 02, 2023 7:17 pm

Samuel S wrote:The only thing that feels left on the table is that I do wonder if they're waiting for the dust to settle before investing in a shorter flange distance mount like L, E, or RF. I don't know that it makes for a company to release a new EF Mount camera.


This has been mentioned many times on the forums already:
Sony does not license their E mount, Canon does not license their RF mount (RED seems to be the exception as they obviously have done patent exchange with Canon).

So this leaves PL mount (or the newer LPL mount) and L mount (if BMD gets a licence from the L mount alliance) as the only options.

I think BMD is not done yet with creating new cameras. My best bet is that the next gen cameras will incorporate some kind of neural CPU for adding features they could not implement otherwise - like object auto focus, face detection. Maybe also for better noise reduction and better partial de-mosaicing.
This could also help to make in-camera virtual gyro stabilization possible (adjustable in post via metadata).
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Feb 03, 2023 5:36 pm

Outside of creating a cube camera for rigging they have covered the market well. The pockets are great form factor and feature packed. The Ursas are a nice step up if you need the buttons, prefer heavier ENG styled camera.

Right now there is no need to bring out another camera for a year or two at which point UMP12K equivalent upgrade with dual gain ISO, better IR and Móire control, higher dynamic range, possibly variable ND or ability to fine tune the ND more. Maybe 240fps in 8K mode, 480fps in UHD or FHD but asking for a lot here.

The cameras are fine as they are, but firmware update for things already listed would be nice.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 06, 2023 7:27 pm

It's always weird to see the various factors that drive consumer demand -- some of them actually preventing good innovation to take place IMO. Misguided resolution mandates by streamers led to more LF sensor cameras, which then got labeled as the "new look" without really adding anything.

If BM had a pro grade 6K S-35 camera with the dynamic range of the Pocket 6K and a fast readout, it would be killer upgrade in their market segment. But because the push was for larger sensors and "more Ks", we got a 12K URSA instead -- which I'm sure is a nice camera, but was 12K what this market really needed at that point? Meanwhile, Netflix shows and movies are shooting on Komodos instead because its pros and cons make it fit better into a certain low budget market segment. (I'm not here to argue for the Komodo vs. URSA, I'm sure we could beat that to death all we want, I'm simply saying the Komodo fits into a certain pipeline for a lot of people.)

I really hope that with the Alexa 35 getting out there, this push for LF sensors gets tamed and we all start pushing for better S-35 cameras as opposed to more Ks and larger film backs.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 06, 2023 7:52 pm

The Alexa 35 proved that there's still strong demand in professional circles for S35mm sensors, orders are supposedly backed-up to 2024, but unfortunately the low end of the market is much more fad prone. Folks need FF for all the great movies they're not going to make and all the unwatchable ones they do make....

For that matter m43 is ideal for this market segment, it's nearly as wide as Academy 1.85. But not good enough somehow.
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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 06, 2023 10:09 pm

The worst thing BMD ever did was to put 12k in the name of a camera.

It’s lead to so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anytime someone posts that they don’t need 12k, shows that they don’t understand what that sensor is about. It’s BMDs fault because they’re leaning into a marketing number that’s not really a relevant number in the context of this sensor design.

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timbutt2

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Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 06, 2023 11:31 pm

John Brawley wrote:The worst thing BMD ever did was to put 12k in the name of a camera.

It’s lead to so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anytime someone posts that they don’t need 12k, shows that they don’t understand what that sensor is about. It’s BMDs fault because they’re leaning into a marketing number that’s not really a relevant number in the context of this sensor design.

JB
Yeah, BMD should have just named it what it is: URSA Mini Pro G3.

Either way, I’m looking forward to the next Blackmagic Camera whether it is LF or S35. For me these days what matters is the ergonomics of the camera and how it fits in a production pipeline. Thus why most of my requests happen to be based off needs I find in use.

So features like Lens Motor Ports at the front to cut down on wires going from the motors to the battery. Features like a Wireless Video Assist to control the camera settings from an external monitor since we tend to use external monitors a lot. More I/O Ports since we tend to need them. And, of course a Micro version of the URSA Mini in order to facilitate the need of a smaller camera design. But overall, I want to manage cables better by cutting out the need for most of the ones we’re adding to the rig.

Ultimately Dynamic Range matters most to me over resolution. So if the 12K is increased to LF and it results in more dynamic range than that is the only reason I care about getting a larger sensor.

I will note that 12K BRAW is far more efficient on the computer than 8K REDRAW.


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