URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

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GtheAwwSm

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URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostTue Jan 17, 2023 10:56 am

Okay, So URSA mini pro 12k can record 12k footage in Constant quality and Q0 settings, and URSA mini pro can record upto 900mbps to usb c SSDs.

But But But, the problem is even 8k footage in constant quality Q0 take bitrate around 1GBps to 2.4GBps... and other recording options are also 500mbps and 900mbps recording rate... even though USB C supports rates upto 10 GBps,

Now how in the world would I record 12k Footage? if anyone else records in such high formats, please help.

I am using a 8 TB SSD in a usb c enclosure, there is no problem in cable or ssd read write rate... just camera cant write on it above 900mbps rate...

Do anyone else use some other stuff to record 12K Q0 footage? please help with this.
Last edited by GtheAwwSm on Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GtheAwwSm

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording

PostFri Jan 27, 2023 4:53 am

I Guess no-one records in 12k Q0... :(
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostFri Jan 27, 2023 5:57 pm

UMP 12K (and Broadcast G2) has the newer and higher bandwidth USB Type-C 3.1 Gen 2, whereas the UMPG2 has the older USB Type-C 3.1 Gen 1.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 1:14 am

12K @ Q0 @ 24fps = Up to 1,156 MB/s

I don’t think 12K @ Q0 is meant for anything outside of 24fps.

Ursa 12K can record to U.2 (via the mini recorder) at data rates up to 1250 MB/s.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 3:11 am

Jason Boyd wrote: Ursa 12K can record to U.2 (via the mini recorder) at data rates up to 1250 MB/s.
While that is the theoretical maximum of the spec for the USB-C ports on the SSD recorder and UMP 12K, nothing can actually come close to that max in practical use. BMD's recommend U.2 disks are listed up to a max of 12K DCI Blackmagic RAW 8:1 up to 50 fps, which is only 753MB/s.

If anyone can confirm that they've ever consistently gotten more than 1000MB/s into the SSD recorder, I'd love to see proof of that.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 3:53 am

Yeah, I’m speaking theoretically. The U.2 speeds range from 2500MB/s - 4000MB/s, and USB 3.1 Gen 2 is capable of 1250MB/s. Not sure why the U.2 would be so dramatically slower in the mini recorder.

This the original image from BM’s site. I’m not sure why the data rates differ from now. Perhaps BM was never expecting such high data rates when they created the camera because the numbers have certainly changed at some point between release and now.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 4:02 am

Nothing has changed. The data rates on the UMP 12K are the same as they've ever been.

No version of USB-C has ever, in any implementation, delivered anywhere close to the theoretical maximum in actual practice. I'd love to see evidence of an exception, but as far as I've ever seen, it is what it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 4:34 am

The data rates have clearly changed. The original BM graphic I posted shows exactly that.

Blackmagic originally claimed that 12K Q0 @ 24fps was 271MB/s - 578MB/s

Even when you read old articles about the 12K from 2020 they list the same 271-578 data rate for Q0: https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/07/17/ ... -thoughts/

Now Blackmagic claims that 12K Q0 @ 24fps is 289MB/s - 1200MB/s
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 5:01 am

What's even more outrageous is even 4K DCI 120fps Q0 is 803-1300 mbps so basically, this camera isn't for high frame rate at all... Good Lord...
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 5:15 am

Only most comfortable format for recording without any quality compromise at this point is at 4K 2.4:1 at 100fps Q0, thats it any further goes off limits

So if 120fps is needed for any special need, you need to drop expectations from 12K DCI all the way to 4K 6:5 Anamorphic or 17:9 Super 16, only these are under 900mbps rates...at Q0

Real highest capability of this camera at Q0 is 133fps at 17:9 Super16 4K... LOL, Big Big LOL

I'll be honest I thought I could record upto 120fps 12K Q0 when I got this camera... reality is so so different
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 5:52 am

The constant quality compression variants are scene dependent and the ranges listed are only averages as noted in the fine print below both the old graphic and the current one on BMD’s product page for the 12K. That note reads, “Actual rates are dependent on the image being captured. Constant Quality footage with extremely high or low frequency detail can fall outside of the average ranges quoted above.”

BMD updating the estimated ranges shown in the graphic doesn’t necessarily mean the compression used actually changed.

If a firmware update did change the Q compression, I missed it in the release notes. If anyone from BMD is reading, perhaps they could chime in here with a definitive answer.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 6:29 am

Hopeful someone from Blackmagic can shine a light on this, because this discovery is really bothering me.

It seems like a bait and switch, especially for those who paid $10,000 for this camera. Blackmagic’s original numbers led people to believe that 12K Q0 could be recorded on an SSD, and that Q1 & Q3 could easily record directly to a single CFast 2.0 card. These new data rates show that Q0 is impossible @ 12K, and Q1 & Q3 are impossible for CFast 2.0.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 6:52 am

Or Blackmagic Design can easily develop Raid0 like recording configuration,

Basically what Raid0 is : it uses multiple SSDs or HDDs as one big storage, it splits the mbps read-write across all SSDs/HDDs so what happens is you get twice read/write rate on them, also it increases storage, if I connect 4 8tb SSDs, it will give 4x times read write rate and 32tb storeage.

BMD can find a way to work with this and use this to write across multiple SSDs, which can further be connected to camera via multiple usb-c ports or maybe a custom recorder developed by BMD themselves.

And footage can easily be extracted via any port, because only disadvantage in this is you need fixed SSDs/HDDs for Raid0, if a single one removed, all the data even on other non-removed SSD is erased. but this can be easily achieved via SSD enclosure or HDD hub, trust me its very very easy to set up

You can easily connect almost any type of Nvme m.2 SSD to SSD enclosure, 4 of them, which takes 4x 2tb SSDs total storage to 8tb or 4x 8tb SSD to 32tb and you never need to open it again, just input port and output ports are used further on outside.

If BMD wants they can implement this very very easily.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 7:18 am

lol take it easy people
Last edited by GtheAwwSm on Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 2:48 pm

Dual CFAST.

That’s the way to do this.

I’ve done 12KQ3 to a single CFAST often.

Only time I have issues is on a very wide and detailed shot. Dual cards makes it go away.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 8:22 pm

Yep, duel CFast Angelbird AV PRO CF

12K 24fps Q0
and
super16 6K 60fps Q0

is what I normally use

also this will work with the USB and SanDisk Extreme PRO Portable SSD 2TB and 4TB
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 9:05 pm

Okay, so if Dual CFast 2.0 can record 12K Q0, and the SanDisk Extreme PRO can record Q0, then the U.2 SSD mini recorder option should work just fine.

Dual CFast 2.0 = 900MB/s (ish)

That also means that the 1,200 MB/s claim for Q0 can’t be accurate, or at least a very rare occurrence.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 9:57 pm

I can’t speak to SSD as I never use media like that. First because it’s inherently less reliable and secondly, you are limited to a single data bus.

Any Q recording is driven entirely by content. It’s a band of data rate and typically it’s the lower range of that band most of the time. If it hits that peak number it’s only for a very short amount of time.

Dual CFAST is the best way to record these higher data rates.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 10:55 pm

While I haven't run tests with dual cards to check what the maximum possible rates are, I have run them for the SSD recorder with the constant bitrate options. I post my results here since they show that it's not only absolute bit rate that matters, but also frame rate. I assume that's a result of the single data bus that JB mentioned.

These are the maximum sustained rates at various settings that I've been able to obtain with the SSD Recorder and UMP 12K running the latest firmware, connected via a Kondor Blue USB-C cable and recording to Micron 7300 Max U.2 SSD MTFDHBE3T2TDG 3.2TB media.

12K DCI at 5:1 = 40fps (936 MB/s)
12K DCI at 8:1 = 60fps (903 MB/s)

8K DCI at 5:1 = 77fps (824 MB/s)
8K DCI at 8:1 = 116 fps (776 MB/s)
8K DCI at 12:1 = 120 fps (536 MB/s)

6K s16 at 5:1 = 120 fps (728 MB/s)

I ran the tests mostly for my own curiosity since I only use the SSD recorder when the camera is totally static on sticks for long interviews or events, and I never have to shoot those things any higher than 30fps (and nearly always in wonderfully efficient Q5). When shooting anything else any other way, I record only to CFast. As JB noted, the USB-C connection is risky, so I never use it in any situation where the camera is being moved or placed anywhere that it could be accidentally bumped.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 11:54 pm

And to add to Jamie’s post…

While it would appear that Q0 can be a higher data rate than 3:1, very very often Q0 will be a much much lower data rate than 3:1, surging higher than 3:1 as required for short periods of time.

It’s all dependent on scene content. BRAW is unique because it’s based on what’s in FOCUS

Many compression schemes are based on scene information that changes over time. BRAW does it based on what’s sharp, allocating more data to the “sharp” or in focus bits and less compression to what’s out of focus, and then the overall bandwidth and target compression is based on that band you set.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSun Jan 29, 2023 6:59 am

Problem with CFast cards with me but they are perfect for you guys is they can only go upto 4tb (2tb each used, and you guys records at low frame rates (by that I mean 24fps) compared to me (my needs are around 120fps).

Also you Guys shoot footage for only few hours, and at Q3-Q4 or constant bitrates, In my case, as I am actually shooting for my own company, I wanted most higher quality footage for my future needs...

So 12k was cool for me while purchasing the camera and I have already adjusted my needs of 120fps to basically 50fps, just saying that, Its fine I'll use 4k footage in 120fps for now(shot differently on other camera), but I will also have 12K footage in 50fps when I need it, I can release that publicly...

Also my recordings are not few minutes like 20min dual CFast cards can record, I record long 5hr content, which is very easy to record via USB-C port to SSD enclosure, because I can just connect 4x8tb SSDs and it gives me 32tb storage to record hours of footage and I can simply plug that same USB-C cable to my Monster Server machine I use as PC (it has 7 GPUs for 12k editing) and just edit it.

But The claims of recording at 12k Q0 are a lot different than I thought,

So I have sacrificed 120fps to 50fps when purchasing the camera just to find out, It can't actually shoot 50fps either to my needs... I can only record 24fps, on top of that only for 20 minutes, and on CFast cards, not my Ideal option to go with, Good Lord..

(Also my last 4 posts on this topic are not yet approved by moderators, why?)
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSun Jan 29, 2023 9:43 pm

Are you recording for 5 hours at Q0 at 120fps? What kind of work requires 5 hours of that?

I think you just have to be smart and manage the mix of media to your requirements.

You’re going to switch to another camera…because you’re can’t get Q0 at 4k 120fps?

I think that tells me that you don’t really understand the qualitative difference between the lower compression rates.

I shoot 150 million dollar budget shows and I don’t shoot Q0.

Plenty of multi million dollar shows shoot ProRes 444.

It’s great you have such high and exacting standards. Maybe the 12k isn’t the right camera for you but I’d love to know which one you’d be switching too after this.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 2:03 am

5 hours of Q0 at 120fps? Yikes.

I don’t think you’re going to find any camera that gives 120fps at Q0 quality.

Shooting 8K 120fps at 8:1 will give you as good of quality (if not better) as anything else out there.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 2:14 am

Being so obsessed with quality is the best excuse for never finishing a movie.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 2:30 am

Uli Plank wrote:Being so obsessed with quality is the best excuse for never finishing a movie.
It’s IMAX or bust for me. Every frame needs to be captured in that wonderful 1570 format. And, it can only show on the 1570 film projectors. So only 12 screens in the world. And, it’s a 7-hour epic based on Virgil’s The Aeneid. No intermission. Oh, and it’s entirely in Latin.


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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 5:21 am

I see some misunderstandings here, I am shooting normally on 4k quality, I don't necessarily need 12k Q0 120fps,

But as I mentioned previously, 12k Recording is future-proofing for us, basically, we are seeing our company's moving towards VR very quickly, that's the reason we just purchased bunch of 12Ks to shoot in very High quality.

Its just a very niche requirement, and it is very common in VR recordings to have such 12K 120fps Q0 - recorded events.

As URSA 12K is first 12k camera I came across, so I just thought this could do the job...
Also, we edit the 5 hour footage to 30 minutes...
No problems with URSA 12K now, we know it can't shoot upto our requirements, we are researching what cameras other VR production companies use, or we will need to modify URSA 12K by our engineering department.

That's the reason of being obsessed with quality, its only for future... we are just producing normal 4K products, as you barely even notice difference between 100fps and 120 fps at 4k, And people don't even have 8k screens yet...

4k Q0 100fps is possible on URSA so we are fine for now, and yes, we do record not just 5hrs, but upto 20hrs of footage sometimes via USB-C to an SSD Enclosure, 32TB - 4x8TB SSDs, and we are developing our own USB-C hubs of upto 128TB storage which are basically apple's OEM 32TB SSDs combined via RAID0.

We edit footage later on our custom editing machines...
And you might be wondering what work is requiring this Beast of production, we are sub-part of a Parent company, which owns multiple multi-national companies Supercar luxury companies, AAA Game production Studios, Mega Theme parks which will be launching very soon for public, and many more companies like Tech, I can't say names legally.

These companies do produce their own trailers and events via other Producers, normal footages... and sole purpose of our departments is to record high quality footages for future requirements.

Thanks for helping though...
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 5:56 am

Thank you for explaining in more detail.

I think you're worried about the wrong aspect. I'm wondering if you shouldn't test further.

12KQ5 will look a LOT better than 4K Q0.

In fact, because of the sensor design, 4K on the 12K in my view doesn't look as good as regular 4K from other cameras. 8K or 12K is the best setting, and even with more compression it will still look much better.

Also, when you supersample or record at higher resolution that your delivery format, then you also get an extra image quality advantage. You should be acquiring material at higher resolution than your delivery format. Perhaps 8K is a good compromise too.

If you are working for such high profile high budget clients, then media cost shouldn't be a problem. Dual cards means you can continuously record using CFAST. That is the beauty of two slots.

If you are needing something more in this scenario, then the cost will escalate massively. you'd be looking at $200K-$300K+ for a high speed option that can do this kind of resolution and the media costs will also be much much higher. I can send you some suggestions if that's the way you want to go.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 6:22 am

I really want to know exactly what kind of picture demands such configuration and not just… oh, it’s a multi-quintillion international company of sorts. My curiosity perks with reality and hopefully this is no pipe dream conversation. Fast camera with high bite rate codecs are used to shoot sports for example, but that’s where I’ve seen a real world utilization of it. Then there is the use to capture images of fluid dynamics which requires very high frame rate cameras, albeit the resolution is left to 4K or less. If this is the kind of similar type of project, or close, then check out the Phantom line of super high speed cameras. But be ready to pay the piper. Here’s someone who shot a house burning in 4K at 1000fps.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/pha ... esolution/

@Tim, I too want to shoot in IMAX, at the best constant quality possible, at a 240fps and write it out to a Sandisk Extreme Pro SSD. :D

I’ve been shooting features with various cameras and yet to encounter someone who want RAW @ 12K 120fps amuses me. Like JB, the production companies (with sizable budgets) usually request that it be delivered in 2.8K or at the most 4K res in Prores 422 or 444, at 23.976fps, and on occasion, some inserts in high frame rates no more than 80fps.

I’m intrigued as to what this film company in India is doing. If it is real, there might be cool stuff to hear about. Looking forward to really know the nitty gritty details why such requirements are expected.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 6:46 am

C'mon, Ellory, you know I have reacted a bit cynical too.
But since he has explained that they are aiming at future proofing for VR or stuff to be used in theme parks and the like, it is understandable.
OTOH, one needs to consider lenses too. Only the best ones and at their best aperture will resolve those 12K on S-35. In many situations the Q factor used might not matter as much as the lens. For the applications mentioned, one may need pretty deep DoF and will have to stop down. Even at f8 some diffraction may settle in.
For anything else, just as John explained, 8K can be the sweet spot to be used on that camera and you still get beautiful oversampled footage in 4K.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 6:55 am

Ellory Yu wrote:I really want to know exactly what kind of picture demands such configuration and not just… oh, it’s a multi-quintillion international company of sorts. My curiosity perks with reality and hopefully this is no pipe dream conversation. Fast camera with high bite rate codecs are used to shoot sports for example, but that’s where I’ve seen a real world utilization of it. Then there is the use to capture images of fluid dynamics which requires very high frame rate cameras, albeit the resolution is left to 4K or less. If this is the kind of similar type of project, or close, then check out the Phantom line of super high speed cameras. But be ready to pay the piper.

@Tim, I too want to shoot in IMAX, at the best constant quality possible, at a 240fps and write it out to a Sandisk Extreme Pro SSD. :D

I’ve been shooting features with various cameras and yet to encounter someone who want RAW @ 12K 120fps amuses me. Like JB, the production companies (with sizable budgets) usually request that it be delivered in 2.8K or at the most 4K res in Prores 422 or 444, at 23.976fps, and on occasion, some inserts in high frame rates no more than 80fps.

I’m intrigued as to what this film company in India is doing. If it is real, there might be cool stuff to hear about. Looking forward to really know the nitty gritty details why such requirements are expected.




We do have Phantom TMX 7510, and they are for different purpose, We use that in our Science Labs... They are just dedicated for like 1 million fps... They are used in Quantum Mechanics and stuff...

This topic is different, this one is just for Humans to look at, not in slow motion, just normal and it should look as natural as possible. TMX 7510 is for research only...

And yes I have not mentioned budget in this entire conversation, we don't really have that problem, basically our editing machines are like $70K each, server machines used as PCs... And I am allowed to discuss and share this I have got permission for research purposes...

I just expected someone who records in 12K Q0 60fps (as We can see settings for that) to reply on this post, I have not found anyone like that yet.

We will be getting in contact with BMD soon, and I will update how to record 12k Q0 60fps , on this post (I can't promise) if anyone like us needs help... Although if anyone records in 12k Q0 60fps you are welcome to Share your preferences... it will be helpful information.
Currently in - India.

(Tech I Use : URSA-12k, BMPCC-6k-Pro, records to USB-C 32tb SSD Hub, Custom Editing Machine - 600Core CPU, 7 Graphics Cards, 20TB Ram, 40TB Storage, and DaVinci Resolve)
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 9:55 am

Out of curiosity, may I ask if you are running that editing station under Linux?
Don’t approach DR with your preconceptions from another NLE.
Many features are better, some worse, most are different.


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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am

Uli Plank wrote:Out of curiosity, may I ask if you are running that editing station under Linux?


Of Course, Our team is open for help, We support creators, you can ask whatever you want, I'll try to answer.

Windows 10 Pro actually... these are more than enough for our work,
there are multiple AMD CPUs making total of 600 cores around 3GHz,
Its a custom motherboard and a 20tb Ram stick, we don't know what they are
7x RTX A6000 GPUs (they're like 4-5 thousand dollars each),
4x 8TB SSDs total of 40tb primary storage,
And we use DaVinci resolve majorly, but some of editors do use Premiere Pro and Final Cut as well
And we also have the Dedicated Editing Blackmagic DaVinci Advanced Panels,
And all other Gadgets like Vinten Fusion FPR-210+ Robotic/Manual Pedestal with Absolute Positioning System
We are also in the market, looking for a robot that fits our needs, like MKBHD has one them, but we need lot more so...

Also $70k price was just our Guess, it could be lot more than that, there are 4 of these editing stations.
Currently in - India.

(Tech I Use : URSA-12k, BMPCC-6k-Pro, records to USB-C 32tb SSD Hub, Custom Editing Machine - 600Core CPU, 7 Graphics Cards, 20TB Ram, 40TB Storage, and DaVinci Resolve)
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 1:33 pm

I can understand your immersive VR goal. Two suggestions for you to consider:

a) Having multiple 12K URSA cameras is good. For long running I would be concerned about heating and a change in the sensor temperature. BMD says they do much to keep the sensor temperature stable, but for how long? Is a "warm up" period necessary? Will the temperature stabilize and stay there? There may be a need to rotate through cameras and how might that be done seamlessly? So the issue here is temperature stability of sensor for long term recording.

b) Consider streaming the data from camera to computer. Would 12G SDI be enough? Would the USB work? Could you use an optical conversion? Again depends on your desired recording needs. This could eliminate the need for intermediate media (also done in live sports.) The camera can only output so much as it is designed so that would seem the limit. It would be interesting to know how far that limit might be pushed.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 1:58 pm

Yes it is obvious, camera will need modifications to meet our needs, we are aware of it.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 11:09 pm

There are zero problems with heating on the 12K, just like there are zero problems with heating on the G2 or many of the previous Ursa camera iterations. They can run for many many hours continuously with zero impact on image. They are designed to work this way. There is no warm up time. Like Arri, they use solid state cooling to maintain a sensor temp in an ideal range to +/- 1 degree. Only in the most in-human would you exceed the cooling (and heating) ability of the design.

Recording the 4K output doesn’t make a lot of sense.

It’s encoded video.

I believe the 12G connection also has a frame rate limit (60 FPS?)

12KQ0 at 60 FPS could be recorded to dual CFAST cards (depending on the scene content), but given the alternatives being discussed, just drop to Q3 Or Q5. Other choices being considered by the OP have FAR GREATER visual impact than switching from Q0 to Q3.

This would be demonstrated and verified out by testing, which I urge the OP to do.

Compression with BRAW is very very very good. By using BRAW you keep A 12 bit log and full sensor resolution which trump all these other options and certainly will look better than 4K Q0.

Drop to 8KQ3 if higher frame rates are required and you sill still get a MUCH better result than 4K Q0. This would be demonstrable in a test the OP can easily do to confirm.

I urge the OP to try some of the other Q compression settings along with dual CFAST cards. I believe then they will then be able to meet their benchmarks without sacrifice.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostTue Jan 31, 2023 7:04 am

By the way guys have you heard of the 40k resolution camera once made? That's kinda overkill...

Also focus could be adjusted after recording...
Currently in - India.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostTue Jan 31, 2023 7:11 am

It was never commercialised. And it was huge.

This thing behind the 17” monitor is the camera.

https://m.dpreview.com/news/6720444400/ ... era-at-nab

They did make stills version of them for a while.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostTue Jan 31, 2023 7:20 pm

Thanks John for the info on heating/cooling on the 12K. Good to know.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostWed Feb 01, 2023 3:51 am

Just for fun.

Here’s 12K Q0 at 60 FPS on dual CFAST.

https://flic.kr/p/2oexpzg

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 2:39 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:While I haven't run tests with dual cards to check what the maximum possible rates are, I have run them for the SSD recorder with the constant bitrate options. I post my results here since they show that it's not only absolute bit rate that matters, but also frame rate. I assume that's a result of the single data bus that JB mentioned.

These are the maximum sustained rates at various settings that I've been able to obtain with the SSD Recorder and UMP 12K running the latest firmware, connected via a Kondor Blue USB-C cable and recording to Micron 7300 Max U.2 SSD MTFDHBE3T2TDG 3.2TB media.

12K DCI at 5:1 = 40fps (936 MB/s)
12K DCI at 8:1 = 60fps (903 MB/s)

8K DCI at 5:1 = 77fps (824 MB/s)
8K DCI at 8:1 = 116 fps (776 MB/s)
8K DCI at 12:1 = 120 fps (536 MB/s)

6K s16 at 5:1 = 120 fps (728 MB/s)

I ran the tests mostly for my own curiosity since I only use the SSD recorder when the camera is totally static on sticks for long interviews or events, and I never have to shoot those things any higher than 30fps (and nearly always in wonderfully efficient Q5). When shooting anything else any other way, I record only to CFast. As JB noted, the USB-C connection is risky, so I never use it in any situation where the camera is being moved or placed anywhere that it could be accidentally bumped.
I just ran some tests in dual card mode recording to two 512GB Angelbird AV Pro CFCFast 2.0 cards. Here are the maximums that the UMP12K was able to sustain to those cards in dual mode:

12K DCI at 5:1 = 40fps (936 MB/s)
12K DCI at 8:1 = 60fps (903 MB/s)

8K DCI at 5:1 = 87fps (931 MB/s)
8K DCI at 8:1 = 120 fps (803 MB/s)
8K DCI at 12:1 = 120 fps (536 MB/s)

6K s16 at 5:1 = 120 fps (728 MB/s)
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 5:06 am

GtheAwwSm wrote:Windows 10 Pro actually... these are more than enough for our work,
there are multiple AMD CPUs making total of 600 cores around 3GHz,
Its a custom motherboard and a 20tb Ram stick, we don't know what they are

Are you sure it's Windows 10 Pro, or was 20 TB RAM a typo? The max memory size for Pro is 2 TB. If it's Pro Workstation it maxes out at 6 TB. This hardware doesn't really make sense with that OS, unless it's a server that uses hardware virtualization and the Windows 10 Pro OS is just one of the systems running on it, sharing resources with others.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 5:10 am

roger.magnusson wrote:
GtheAwwSm wrote:Windows 10 Pro actually... these are more than enough for our work,
there are multiple AMD CPUs making total of 600 cores around 3GHz,
Its a custom motherboard and a 20tb Ram stick, we don't know what they are

Are you sure it's Windows 10 Pro, or was 20 TB RAM a typo? The max memory size for Pro is 2 TB. If it's Pro Workstation it maxes out at 6 TB. This hardware doesn't really make sense with that OS, unless it's a server that uses hardware virtualization and the Windows 10 Pro OS is just one of the systems running on it, sharing resources with others.



It's modified, both software and hardware... It is 20TB... It's not anything you can find on market even for commercial purpose, it's specially custom made. And they are built to last at least 10 years without any compromises.
Currently in - India.

(Tech I Use : URSA-12k, BMPCC-6k-Pro, records to USB-C 32tb SSD Hub, Custom Editing Machine - 600Core CPU, 7 Graphics Cards, 20TB Ram, 40TB Storage, and DaVinci Resolve)
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 6:14 am

We have enough bad posts on this forum without fantasy, thank you.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 6:19 am

Something big happening soon... Will tell you guys as soon as I'm allowed to....
Currently in - India.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 11:37 am

That doesn’t make sense to me. Why would it be a modified Windows Pro when you could just use Windows Server instead and not have the 2 TB RAM limit?

Windows 10 Pro is only supported for about 2.5 more years, then it's done. But then again it can't be supported by Microsoft now as-is if it's modified.

I suppose all of this is possible but it raises the question, why? Why so much RAM memory and so little disk storage? Either we're not getting the full story or it was speced by someone who doesn't understand how the resources will be used. If you need in-memory preview for Fusion, then ok, lots of RAM is needed.
Last edited by roger.magnusson on Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 12:22 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:That doesn’t make sense to me. Why would it be a modified Windows Pro when you could just use Windows Server instead and not have the 2 TB RAM limit?


I don't know man, our job is to work with post production on that machine and it does that very well, using 10% of its ram very very rarely on workload, we don't care about what the hardware company provided us with as we mentioned user interface should be as easy as possible even though its a sever machine and we should be able to use it for next 10 years.

We have it, it works better than we need... only other requirement was at least 800TB of storage integrated, but they provided separate unit for it with 2PetaByte capacity + its all SSD not HDD, and we also store files on servers as well, so we have no problem with working with it.

Basically if we're happy and service providers find it easy, no-one has any problem with it, it doesn't have to make sense to everyone... if it does to them and us. and if we need to develop our own remote programs we don't have to do it for server machine twice and then for remote laptops again... I dont know what problem is in that, it is what it is...
Last edited by GtheAwwSm on Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Currently in - India.

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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 12:23 pm

Ah, so there is more storage than the 40TB.
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Re: URSA mini pro 12k Constant Quality Q0 recording Source

PostSun Feb 12, 2023 11:03 pm

There's a lot of debate below about 12K on constant quality Q0 versus constant bitrate. I don't use the constant quality as it is impossible to know in advance whether it is going to top out and stop recording. Constant bitrate seems to give incredible results.

I have been using the 12K for a year now, mostly slow motion, 12K 2.4:1 75 fps, 8K DCI 17:9 120fps, 8k 2.4:1 160 fps, 6K 120 fps and 4K 240 fps. I record externally to Sandisk extreme pro NMVe 2TB SSDs. I set the compression to 8:1 as it covers all of those frame rates. I haven't seen any problems with that compression ratio.

However, I have also tested the higher compression rates and struggle to see any difference. Nevertheless, as long as you are using an NMVe SSD with a good connection, 8:1 covers everything the camera can do. I don't have to remember to change the compression ratio when I change frame rate. The Sandisk extreme pro work fine, but the Sandisk extreme NMVe (smaller and quite a lot cheaper, but slower) are also fast enough. If you are using older style SSDs, such as Samsung T5, Samsung EVO, they aren't fast enough. (Haven't tested Samsung T7)

At times I have had problems with some USB C cables not working properly. Now that I have found decent cables, the SSD seems to be extremely reliable. I have had an engineer to build a mount for the SSD, which also protects the camera USB C cable connection, and holds the cable in place. (It also protects the lanc cable socket which is a bit weedy)

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