The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 3859
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 11:09 am

But not when Arri designed their dual gain sensors.

Which have been made by two different companies.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Los Angeles
Offline
User avatar

Kim Janson

  • Posts: 2034
  • Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:54 pm
  • Location: Finland

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 11:54 am

Canon now has '24 stop' sensor, I doubt though not very ideal for video, segmented HDR, so sensor is divided to over 700 different exposure segments, I guess like 700 segments with different gain.

Kind of like LCD screens now days, plenty of individually controlled LEDs as backlight.

About dual gain, is it actually 2 different gains on same exposure? If so why stop in 2.

The analogue to digital conversion can be done many ways. Just idea, one way could be exposing pixels until they have collected given amount of light. The number indicating the brightness would then be actually the time it took to collect that amount of light. This though could have weird effects on video, every pixel exposed different time :) should have awesome DR though.
LeViteZer Smooths the movement, www.levitezer.com
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 986
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 3:26 pm

Kim Janson wrote:About dual gain, is it actually 2 different gains on same exposure? If so why stop in 2.


With modern multi-tap sensors you can have currently one of two designs: dual iso ranges with a cheaper single ADC circuit design or the more costly dual gain design, with 2 or more ADCs; this is commonly seen as a dual tap where the left and right halves of the field are readout separately. It produces higher dynamic range and faster readout too. It is common in audio too, such as with Sound Devices use of multiple ADCs in their pre-amps, to maximise DR for 32bit float, in the MixPre series. This is the principal behind Arri's sensors and the reason they have such a huge dynamic range. It's a much more costly circuit design than say the Pockets dual Iso range and to quote Edmund Optics: "The performance of a multiple tap sensor depends largely on the implementation of the internal camera hardware".
Offline

Chris Cronin

  • Posts: 94
  • Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:45 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 6:57 pm

On this subject, Kinefinity have recently unveiled two new* cameras, one in LF and the other in S35.

Got me wondering if Blackmagic might take a similar approach with their next camera. One form factor but two different sensor sizes, and some price variation to reflect that. Either way, I think I've said on here before that LF isn't a fad that's going away any time soon, and Kinefinity coming out with these cameras proves that IMO.

*It's unclear how new the sensors are based on what I've read. I believe the S35 sensor is new, but the LF sensor is the same as the Mavo Edge 6K but with better performance?
Offline
User avatar

Adam Langdon

  • Posts: 627
  • Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:15 pm
  • Location: Ohio USA

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 7:45 pm

Chris Cronin wrote:On this subject, Kinefinity have recently unveiled two new* cameras, one in LF and the other in S35.

Got me wondering if Blackmagic might take a similar approach with their next camera. One form factor but two different sensor sizes, and some price variation to reflect that. Either way, I think I've said on here before that LF isn't a fad that's going away any time soon, and Kinefinity coming out with these cameras proves that IMO.

*It's unclear how new the sensors are based on what I've read. I believe the S35 sensor is new, but the LF sensor is the same as the Mavo Edge 6K but with better performance?


at one point, I was VERY close to jumping into Kinefinity, with the Mavo LF, after playing around with some footage in Resolve. It was really nice. the lack of Raw video and a bit of unproven-ness keeps me away, though. There is small company in the UK that started shooting with Kinefinity and they said they really like it (wise guys, I think? or something...)

Anyway, I'm gonna keep holding out hope that the next BMD will blow us all away. No more "Updated P4k" cries! We want Next Gen!
Ursa Mini 12k - Pocket 6K Pro - DZOFilm Pictor Zooms - SLR Magic APO Microprimes PL/EF - Canon 17-55mm f2.8 - Aputure Lighting
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2574
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 8:22 pm

I agree that I want next Gen. No more building a new version of the Pocket or URSA. Time to create the next lineup of cameras that will be used for years to come. They have the 12K sensor they developed. So they can use that as a basis for the sensor tech inside the camera bodies. But it's the camera bodies that need to be taken into a new generation.

I think that I have spoken enough elsewhere about what I want to see in those body improvements. It mainly has to do with ergonomic improvements, i/o improvements, expanded features for on set workflow based on the extra tools we regularly use, and more integration with Resolve's post tools. I think that because of Resolve's growing popularity that Blackmagic is in a prime position to deliver new cameras that everyone will want to shoot with due to how seamlessly the BlackmagicRAW files work within Resolve.

So, whether it's Full Frame or not doesn't matter as much to me. I'll take Full Frame, but am fine with Super 35. What I want is to see the body improve. And, for the footage going into Resolve to bring more metadata that is useful. And, finally, that the extra tools we use with the camera integrate better.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline

Spencer_Meyer

  • Posts: 114
  • Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:58 pm
  • Location: Arizona

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Jan 26, 2023 9:00 pm

I want global shutter, there are a lot of dynamic action that are pretty much impossible to pull off without it.
DaVinci Resolve Certified Trainer
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 986
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Jan 27, 2023 7:30 am

Spencer_Meyer wrote:I want global shutter, there are a lot of dynamic action that are pretty much impossible to pull off without it.


Global shutter is largely unnecessary these days, with many cameras, such as the Alexas, the UMPG2 and the 12K @ 8K, having less than 8ms readout. It's very difficult to see the difference between a true global shutter and 7/8ms, at least Hollywood doesn't seem to have a problem with dynamic action on digital now. It's also harder and more expensive to achieve the same DR and high framerate for slomo with global sensors as it is with a RS sensor.
Offline
User avatar

Adam Langdon

  • Posts: 627
  • Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:15 pm
  • Location: Ohio USA

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Jan 27, 2023 4:19 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Spencer_Meyer wrote:I want global shutter, there are a lot of dynamic action that are pretty much impossible to pull off without it.


Global shutter is largely unnecessary these days, with many cameras, such as the Alexas, the UMPG2 and the 12K @ 8K, having less than 8ms readout. It's very difficult to see the difference between a true global shutter and 7/8ms, at least Hollywood doesn't seem to have a problem with dynamic action on digital now. It's also harder and more expensive to achieve the same DR and high framerate for slomo with global sensors as it is with a RS sensor.


I would say the UMPG2 was fantastic about controlled rolling shutter. I could never get it to show up, haha.
As long as the readout times are minimal, and not P6k-esque, I think we'd be ok.
Ursa Mini 12k - Pocket 6K Pro - DZOFilm Pictor Zooms - SLR Magic APO Microprimes PL/EF - Canon 17-55mm f2.8 - Aputure Lighting
Offline

Will Vazquez

  • Posts: 163
  • Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:40 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 2:53 am

Sadly, I think we’ve seen the last of the blackmagic cameras with the pocket 6K G2. The reason I’m saying is that there’s so much competition, a lot of folks moved on from blackmagic onto RED Komodos or Sony FX3 and FX6. I myself have owned every blackmagic camera except the 12K. I sold the last of my blackmagic cameras a few months ago. I still think that the G2 4.6K, has the most Alexa-like image.

I love blackmagic as a company, and I love what they’ve done, they pushed the envelope and forced everyone to put out better cameras. Does anyone think that Sony would’ve come out with 422 10 bit in their consumer cameras as well as pretty much every other camera manufacturer now, if it wasn’t for black magic? I just feel like there’s so much competition out there with cameras that have great auto focus, that how does blackmagic even carve a niche for itself now at this point. The 12k was a flop, it rents for less than the G2 at Lensrentals. I think it’s better for BM to focus on other tools and software. I still would love to see a new blackmagic camera this year at NAB and heck, I may even buy it. :)
Offline

Steve Fishwick

  • Posts: 986
  • Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 am
  • Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 9:45 am

Will Vazquez wrote:Sadly, I think we’ve seen the last of the blackmagic cameras with the pocket 6K G2... The 12k was a flop, it rents for less than the G2 at Lensrentals.


I really hope your prediction is not true Will and I don't believe it will be. Whilst the 12K may not have taken the industry by storm yet, it is a game changer, with it's propriety technology and sensor pointing the way for BMD and Braw, in the future. The Pockets are still huge sellers and the Ursas in general have held up well in the marketplace. BMD has always been a bit disruptively left of field. Who else specifically designed a cinema/video ground up camera that had the form factor of a DSLR? Who else took the best of ENG and married it with cine form factor, as in the Ursas? And all at a price point that exasperated the rest of the industry. Braw is as important to BMD as Resolve is and for that you need cameras to use it.
Offline

Chris Cronin

  • Posts: 94
  • Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:45 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 12:49 pm

Adam Langdon wrote:at one point, I was VERY close to jumping into Kinefinity, with the Mavo LF, after playing around with some footage in Resolve. It was really nice. the lack of Raw video and a bit of unproven-ness keeps me away, though. There is small company in the UK that started shooting with Kinefinity and they said they really like it (wise guys, I think? or something...)

Anyway, I'm gonna keep holding out hope that the next BMD will blow us all away. No more "Updated P4k" cries! We want Next Gen!

Completely agree in regards to the image.

If I was shooting a mid-budget indie film but couldn't spring for an Arri, I think one of the Mavos would easily be my choice. Lack of RAW is unfortunate but the rumour is that's related to RED patent trolling/making it difficult for other camera companies. Personally I think them removing the e-NDs from the new Mavos is a mistake, but I guess they want to keep selling the Edge line and apparently provide some mounts with e-NDs built in anyway? Suppose it's also helped them price the new Mavos more aggressively.

As for how unproven they are... they remind me of BM 10ish years ago in that regard, but also in how responsive they are to consumer demand. Even besides what they've done with the great Mavo body design, their UI game has come a long way too.

Kinda odd they've not shown any footage from the new cameras yet considering they're meant to start shipping in March, though.
Offline

pnguyen720

  • Posts: 508
  • Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:17 pm
  • Real Name: Phong Nguyen

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 3:16 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Will Vazquez wrote:Sadly, I think we’ve seen the last of the blackmagic cameras with the pocket 6K G2... The 12k was a flop, it rents for less than the G2 at Lensrentals.


The Pockets are still huge sellers


Is this true?
Offline

Samuel S

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:06 pm
  • Real Name: Samuel Speck

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 02, 2023 5:32 pm

Will Vazquez wrote:Sadly, I think we’ve seen the last of the blackmagic cameras with the pocket 6K G2.


I get the same vibe as well based on how BMD has behaved over time. At least for a long while. They're patient and operate on their own schedule and I see a LOT more non-camera BMD products day to day than not.

Between major supply chain issues affecting the release of a camera and squeamishness from tech companies around the world I'm not convinced they're the lone wolf ready to jump the market and launch a new series of bodies - because the only thing I can imagine coming next from them would be a new generation of camera styles with how they've beat the Ursa and New Pocket form factor into the ground.

They have all their bases covered already. Super 35 in 4.6k, 6k, and 12k with dynamic range that they don't really need to improve on to stay relevant. They'd only be competing with themselves with how camera tech has "plateaued" and different demographics have fallen into one system or another.

The only thing that feels left on the table is that I do wonder if they're waiting for the dust to settle before investing in a shorter flange distance mount like L, E, or RF. I don't know that it makes for a company to release a new EF Mount camera.

I hope I'm wrong!
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 4465
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 02, 2023 7:17 pm

Samuel S wrote:The only thing that feels left on the table is that I do wonder if they're waiting for the dust to settle before investing in a shorter flange distance mount like L, E, or RF. I don't know that it makes for a company to release a new EF Mount camera.


This has been mentioned many times on the forums already:
Sony does not license their E mount, Canon does not license their RF mount (RED seems to be the exception as they obviously have done patent exchange with Canon).

So this leaves PL mount (or the newer LPL mount) and L mount (if BMD gets a licence from the L mount alliance) as the only options.

I think BMD is not done yet with creating new cameras. My best bet is that the next gen cameras will incorporate some kind of neural CPU for adding features they could not implement otherwise - like object auto focus, face detection. Maybe also for better noise reduction and better partial de-mosaicing.
This could also help to make in-camera virtual gyro stabilization possible (adjustable in post via metadata).
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
--------------------------------
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
--------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Offline
User avatar

misterk

  • Posts: 57
  • Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:30 pm
  • Location: London, UK
  • Real Name: Karl Kolecava

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostFri Feb 03, 2023 5:36 pm

Outside of creating a cube camera for rigging they have covered the market well. The pockets are great form factor and feature packed. The Ursas are a nice step up if you need the buttons, prefer heavier ENG styled camera.

Right now there is no need to bring out another camera for a year or two at which point UMP12K equivalent upgrade with dual gain ISO, better IR and Móire control, higher dynamic range, possibly variable ND or ability to fine tune the ND more. Maybe 240fps in 8K mode, 480fps in UHD or FHD but asking for a lot here.

The cameras are fine as they are, but firmware update for things already listed would be nice.
CPU Water: R7 1700 @ 3.9Ghz 1.33Vcore / GPU Water: 1080ti @ 2Ghz Core, 6.3GHz Mem / RAM: 32GB Trident Z @ 3600MHz / DRIVES: 2TB 980 PRO OS, 1TB 860 EVO Scratch, 1TB 860 EVO Active Footage
Offline

Tamas Harangi

  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:02 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 06, 2023 7:27 pm

It's always weird to see the various factors that drive consumer demand -- some of them actually preventing good innovation to take place IMO. Misguided resolution mandates by streamers led to more LF sensor cameras, which then got labeled as the "new look" without really adding anything.

If BM had a pro grade 6K S-35 camera with the dynamic range of the Pocket 6K and a fast readout, it would be killer upgrade in their market segment. But because the push was for larger sensors and "more Ks", we got a 12K URSA instead -- which I'm sure is a nice camera, but was 12K what this market really needed at that point? Meanwhile, Netflix shows and movies are shooting on Komodos instead because its pros and cons make it fit better into a certain low budget market segment. (I'm not here to argue for the Komodo vs. URSA, I'm sure we could beat that to death all we want, I'm simply saying the Komodo fits into a certain pipeline for a lot of people.)

I really hope that with the Alexa 35 getting out there, this push for LF sensors gets tamed and we all start pushing for better S-35 cameras as opposed to more Ks and larger film backs.
Tamas Harangi
DIT - IATSE Local 600
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 5274
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 06, 2023 7:52 pm

The Alexa 35 proved that there's still strong demand in professional circles for S35mm sensors, orders are supposedly backed-up to 2024, but unfortunately the low end of the market is much more fad prone. Folks need FF for all the great movies they're not going to make and all the unwatchable ones they do make....

For that matter m43 is ideal for this market segment, it's nearly as wide as Academy 1.85. But not good enough somehow.
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 3859
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 06, 2023 10:09 pm

The worst thing BMD ever did was to put 12k in the name of a camera.

It’s lead to so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anytime someone posts that they don’t need 12k, shows that they don’t understand what that sensor is about. It’s BMDs fault because they’re leaning into a marketing number that’s not really a relevant number in the context of this sensor design.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Los Angeles
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2574
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 06, 2023 11:31 pm

John Brawley wrote:The worst thing BMD ever did was to put 12k in the name of a camera.

It’s lead to so much confusion and misunderstanding. Anytime someone posts that they don’t need 12k, shows that they don’t understand what that sensor is about. It’s BMDs fault because they’re leaning into a marketing number that’s not really a relevant number in the context of this sensor design.

JB
Yeah, BMD should have just named it what it is: URSA Mini Pro G3.

Either way, I’m looking forward to the next Blackmagic Camera whether it is LF or S35. For me these days what matters is the ergonomics of the camera and how it fits in a production pipeline. Thus why most of my requests happen to be based off needs I find in use.

So features like Lens Motor Ports at the front to cut down on wires going from the motors to the battery. Features like a Wireless Video Assist to control the camera settings from an external monitor since we tend to use external monitors a lot. More I/O Ports since we tend to need them. And, of course a Micro version of the URSA Mini in order to facilitate the need of a smaller camera design. But overall, I want to manage cables better by cutting out the need for most of the ones we’re adding to the rig.

Ultimately Dynamic Range matters most to me over resolution. So if the 12K is increased to LF and it results in more dynamic range than that is the only reason I care about getting a larger sensor.

I will note that 12K BRAW is far more efficient on the computer than 8K REDRAW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline

Michel Rabe

  • Posts: 277
  • Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Feb 07, 2023 12:36 am

John Paines wrote:Folks need FF for all the great movies they're not going to make and all the unwatchable ones they do make....


Hahaha, so true.
Offline

AbdoulUK

  • Posts: 199
  • Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:53 pm
  • Real Name: Abdoul Mohammad

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostTue Feb 07, 2023 6:24 pm

I really hope they do bring out another camera. If the 12k was in a different form factor and fit on a gimbal, I doubt id even be looking at another camera for many years. Well that and maybe some ongoing support if it breaks after 12 months, id be a happy man
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 3171
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 6:36 am

Tamas Harangi wrote: Meanwhile, Netflix shows and movies are shooting on Komodos instead because its pros and cons make it fit better into a certain low budget market segment.


Around here, the big winner on the Netflix shows is the Venice 2 -- which has a Super 35 as well as a full frame option. It's displacing both Red and Arri.

I really hope that with the Alexa 35 getting out there, this push for LF sensors gets tamed and we all start pushing for better S-35 cameras as opposed to more Ks and larger film backs.

[/quote]

Red and Arri both added Super 35 cameras to their lineups after launching their latest generation (Sony's interchangeable head put it ahead of the curve there), so Super 35 isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Asus Flow X13, Octacore Zen3/32GB + XG Mobile nVidia RTX 3080/16GB
Apple M1 Mini/16GB
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 3171
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 6:42 am

AbdoulUK wrote:I really hope they do bring out another camera. If the 12k was in a different form factor and fit on a gimbal, I doubt id even be looking at another camera for many years. Well that and maybe some ongoing support if it breaks after 12 months, id be a happy man


Same here. The 12K is a great camera, though I agree with JB about the marketing bungle of calling it a 12K camera, because that's not its biggest selling point. The color is very good, which one would expect since there's really only one company in the world that could be argued to have a stronger color science team in house than Black Magic, and that company doesn't make cameras. And it's a very, very close race.

I honestly don't think that BMD will get out of the camera market, but I think BMD has also slowed its release pace. I'm hoping that BMD plans to wait until it's able to make a major update before releasing its next camera. I'm also hoping for more cameras using the 12K sensor design, regardless of the resolution, though if BMD released a 12K camera with a Komodo-ish form factor it would make a killer hybrid. And by killer, I mean unmatched.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Asus Flow X13, Octacore Zen3/32GB + XG Mobile nVidia RTX 3080/16GB
Apple M1 Mini/16GB
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 4465
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 7:38 am

While I have absolutely nothing against more options, I never understood the camera gear anxiety some people have developed. They buy into a very capable camera system and then a year later hop onto the next system as soon as that comes out. And so on and so forth.

It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.

My UM46K from early 2017 still makes me money, but my main camera has become the PCC4K since early 2019, complemented by a second PCC4K and a PCC6K Pro. I can trust that gear blindly for the outcome.
That’s the most important part for me and my workflow.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
--------------------------------
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
--------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 3171
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 7:50 am

Robert Niessner wrote:While I have absolutely nothing against more options, I never understood the camera gear anxiety some people have developed. They buy into a very capable camera system and then a year later hop onto the next system as soon as that comes out. And so on and so forth.


I understand it completely -- it's an excuse to avoid putting in the effort to learn one's craft. There are a staggering number of people who go out and buy a new camera, lens, accessory, or whatever in the hopes that it will be the magic bullet that makes their work good, and of course it doesn't work. So they blame the gear, because that's easy to do.

It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.


I feel like I usually need around 10 minutes to get comfortable with a new camera, a few days of shooting to feel confident with it, and only upgrade when said upgrade will make my life easier, which is usually 3-5 years. :)

My UM46K from early 2017 still makes me money, but my main camera has become the PCC4K since early 2019, complemented by a second PCC4K and a PCC6K Pro. I can trust that gear blindly for the outcome.
That’s the most important part for me and my workflow.


That's what happens when you study your craft instead of hoping that the badge on the camera is a "talent" button. But a lot of talent-button-hunters manage to get paid by marketing their fake talent buttons to people even more clueless than they are.

I had a pretend filmmaker try to convince me that you can't make a feature film with a BMPCC 6K just a couple of weeks ago... I decided I'll just never work with him, which shouldn't be hard to accomplish living in a major film hub.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Asus Flow X13, Octacore Zen3/32GB + XG Mobile nVidia RTX 3080/16GB
Apple M1 Mini/16GB
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 4465
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 9:25 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.


I feel like I usually need around 10 minutes to get comfortable with a new camera, a few days of shooting to feel confident with it, and only upgrade when said upgrade will make my life easier, which is usually 3-5 years. :)

I probably should have elaborated on that a little bit:

I was referring to the overall system of camera, accessories, and post-processing. And of course, it's much easier to get involved with a new camera from an existing line.

Since the introduction of the current user interface of the Blackmagic cameras, you can actually learn the basic operation within fifteen minutes. After a few days of working with the camera and reading the user manual, you probably have 80% mastered it.

After that, the rig is optimized over the months, a few parts added here, a few parts modified, a few parts gone again. Only with time and many shoots, you then know what works and what does not. Especially if you can buy many parts of a rig only online and not test beforehand.

And finally, you also have to gain experience with the filmed material.

All this together is what I meant by about a year.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
--------------------------------
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
--------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 3171
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 9:36 am

Robert Niessner wrote:I was referring to the overall system of camera, accessories, and post-processing. And of course, it's much easier to get involved with a new camera from an existing line.


I think you were fine. You're just describing the process of honing your craft. Not doing that is what leads people to upgrade their cameras constantly. I don't do that often enough to need to change my rig much, so I forgot about the accessories and rigginng part... like the Zhiyun Crane 3s that I've had for almost two years, because it still works fine with my camera. :)
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Asus Flow X13, Octacore Zen3/32GB + XG Mobile nVidia RTX 3080/16GB
Apple M1 Mini/16GB
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2574
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 10:21 pm

Here's some irony for you. I was finishing off a roll of film yesterday evening and joined up with a fellow photographer and two models. The models couldn't quite grasp that I had to have them hold still for a bit longer for me to keep focus while getting the shot. Autofocus has completely distorted their perception of posing. I also count down before hitting the shutter release. I get one shot in that second, not multiple like with digital. Then I move on without being able to see how the shot came out. One actually came over to see the result and I had to explain we don't see until the film is developed.

I bring this up because sometimes learning the craft of the old methods are pivotal to improving your skills with the new methods. I've been wanting to go back to shooting motion picture film as well recently. It's about the craft and discipline.

On a short shooting 8K REDRAW this January the director just kept the camera rolling instead of slating again in between angles for a reason that became apparent later. I learned that he did an old manual method of syncing because he didn't know about the newer automated methods; He wasn't using timecode sync nor audio waveform sync. He talked about it taking hours to sync. Still, digital spoils and causes bad habits at times. I've numerous times been on shoots where the director says let's keep rolling because it's digital.

My main requests for new features on the camera is about improving workflow and build features. Again, I've said it above. But I do want to reiterate the move to CFExpress.

Angelbird just introduced a new 4TB CFExpress Type B Card. For the 12K that will be very useful not just for the sustained write speeds in CFExpress but also allowing for more capacity to shoot longer in that higher resolution. If you treat the 12K resolution with the discipline of motion picture film then you do get better results.

So going with the requests I have for body improvements is all about me designing a dream rig to better fit my needs in production. This is again a separate on camera monitor like a Video Assist that can control the camera via Touch Screen Control. This is the more ports and cutting down on cables with strategically placed ports for lens motors and such. It's about fixing things that annoy me in our current methods of building rigs.

Again, I don't upgrade willy nilly. I waited between the OG UM4.6K and the UMPG2 because the G2 brought the improvements I wanted to improve my work. And, the UMPG2 still works so well for me that I may not sell it even if I upgrade to the next generation after the 12K. I skipped the 12K not fully because of the resolution, but because besides the sensor improvements the body didn't bring anything I really wanted to see improved. Thus, I'll take a 12K with body improvements.

Another reminder of waiting to upgrade: I shot with the Canon 7D for stills for over a decade. I finally upgraded to a Sony A7IV last year after carefully waiting and researching what fit my needs.

Arri waited a decade to upgrade the Super 35 sensor of theirs to the Alexa 35. Now, the next LF version of their cameras will be based on that Alexa 35. Doing the same stitching method they did with their first LF sensor. And, the improvements to the body of the Alexa 35 will go over to the LF camera builds as well. Patience is something Arri shows great strength in.

I hope Blackmagic releases a new camera that takes into account what we have requested but at the same time does what makes sense for them. They have DaVinci Resolve, and using that as a basis for what they need to do camera wise to make their footage work great with Resolve it only makes sense for them to bring something out that will keep people in their ecosystem.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline

wemrick1

  • Posts: 487
  • Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:47 pm
  • Location: United States
  • Real Name: Walter Emrick

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 12:43 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:While I have absolutely nothing against more options, I never understood the camera gear anxiety some people have developed. They buy into a very capable camera system and then a year later hop onto the next system as soon as that comes out. And so on and so forth.

It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.

My UM46K from early 2017 still makes me money, but my main camera has become the PCC4K since early 2019, complemented by a second PCC4K and a PCC6K Pro. I can trust that gear blindly for the outcome.
That’s the most important part for me and my workflow.


You echo my thoughts on camera gear. I was a performing musician for many years. I never bought into getting a bunch of different brands and models of an instrument. I found an instrument that I liked and practiced with it. I felt that my performance was enhanced the most by becoming intimate with the instrument. Over time I branched out into a few instruments that covered vastly different voices. Upright bass vs fretted bass guitar vs fretless bass guitar but that was the extend of my collection. I have been approaching cameras with the same perspective.
Offline

Ellory Yu

  • Posts: 3693
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:25 pm
  • Warnings: 1

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 2:15 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:While I have absolutely nothing against more options, I never understood the camera gear anxiety some people have developed. They buy into a very capable camera system and then a year later hop onto the next system as soon as that comes out. And so on and so forth.

I'm here with you buddy. I don't understand why their are folks who always wants the latest and greatest, or even the notion of when they say they need to "future proof".
Robert Niessner wrote:It takes me at least a year to learn the ins and outs of my system and after I’ve mastered it I stay on it for several years. This makes work fast and efficient and gives confidence in the gear, which means it frees your mind for the creative part.

It takes me that much time to learn my system and then I can confidently say that I know what I can get out of it. There are times, due to production needs, that I have to rent cameras that I don't have or have very little familiarity with it. But that is rare and when that happens, I'm usually directing or doing the DP work so I have a camera operator who is very familiar with the unit.

Robert Niessner wrote:My UM46K from early 2017 still makes me money, but my main camera has become the PCC4K since early 2019, complemented by a second PCC4K and a PCC6K Pro. I can trust that gear blindly for the outcome.
That’s the most important part for me and my workflow.

I have been holding on with my UMP46K G2 and the P6K OG for a while now. Those I am grateful for what I can produce with them and have not found a need to upgrade for any reason. I have not found a situation that tells me oh I have to get that camera because it is FF or has a different mount, etc. The only time and till today that I would consider a new camera is one that is of a box form factor from BMD. There are ergonomics and rigging reasons that I would find a box form factor worth acquiring but it has nothing to do with a newer sensor, etc. They are great to have but only to a price point.
URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2, Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 6K, Panasonic GH5
PC Workstation Core I7 64Gb, 2 x AMD R9 390X 8Gb, Blackmagic Design DeckLink 4K Mini Monitor, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Resolve Studio 18, BM Micro Panel & Speed Editor
Offline

Tamas Harangi

  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:02 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 6:06 pm

Yeah, as far as "Gear Anxiety," I think most manufacturers by now have crossed what I call "The Alexa Valley" -- a point beyond which, a camera will continue to produce a pleasing, theatrically acceptable image throughout it's maintainable life span. All new gear is really just about bells and whistles and functional improvements -- some of them worthy of shelling out additional cash for, no doubt -- but these improvements no longer make the previous cameras totaly obsolete. You'll be able able to shoot something on an URSA ten years from now and put in a theater or on streaming, and it will still look great, and no new sensors, or new streaming mandates would make the original images themselves any less pleasing.

As Steve Yedlin says, unless you start cloning new eyeballs for humans, there is only so much you can improve on the image. So today, on one hand, it's more about what functional improvements at what price point would make it worth updating my current gear -- which of course becomes very subjective.

But on the manufacturing side I guess it's more about what functional improvements would we need to introduce to continue to please our market segment, and make a potential upgrade worthwhile for current users, and potentially be able move into different market segments at the same time. For Blackmagic, I don't personally think that an LF sensor is the answer to those questions, but that's just my opinion.
Tamas Harangi
DIT - IATSE Local 600
Offline

Tom Roper

  • Posts: 418
  • Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:59 pm
  • Real Name: Tom Roper

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 09, 2023 8:48 pm

Tamas Harangi wrote:Yeah, as far as "Gear Anxiety," I think most manufacturers by now have crossed what I call "The Alexa Valley" -- a point beyond which, a camera will continue to produce a pleasing, theatrically acceptable image throughout it's maintainable life span. All new gear is really just about bells and whistles and functional improvements -- some of them worthy of shelling out additional cash for, no doubt -- but these improvements no longer make the previous cameras totaly obsolete. You'll be able able to shoot something on an URSA ten years from now and put in a theater or on streaming, and it will still look great, and no new sensors, or new streaming mandates would make the original images themselves any less pleasing.

As Steve Yedlin says, unless you start cloning new eyeballs for humans, there is only so much you can improve on the image. So today, on one hand, it's more about what functional improvements at what price point would make it worth updating my current gear -- which of course becomes very subjective.

But on the manufacturing side I guess it's more about what functional improvements would we need to introduce to continue to please our market segment, and make a potential upgrade worthwhile for current users, and potentially be able move into different market segments at the same time. For Blackmagic, I don't personally think that an LF sensor is the answer to those questions, but that's just my opinion.


^^100%
Offline

Ed_Mantle

  • Posts: 168
  • Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostSun Feb 12, 2023 8:09 pm

Am I reading too much into a recent John-of-this-parish-Brawley Instagram post with a slate describing "X cam test" where the lens appears to be a 24-290 optimo (I.e. super 35)?

Answering my own question: probably
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 2574
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am
  • Location: St. Petersburg, Florida, United States of Amercia

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostMon Feb 13, 2023 4:48 am

Ed_Mantle wrote:Am I reading too much into a recent John-of-this-parish-Brawley Instagram post with a slate describing "X cam test" where the lens appears to be a 24-290 optimo (I.e. super 35)?

Answering my own question: probably

This Post? https://www.instagram.com/p/CoGg2n5vj35 ... _copy_link
I doubt it's a new camera. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they're shooting ARRI. And, since an Alexa 35 is in another post:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CojecOqPldA ... _copy_link

I'd say that Alexa 35 is safe. And, it looks like a big production, so it must have been camera tests.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline

Henchman

  • Posts: 541
  • Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 am
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Real Name: Mark Hensley

Re: The Blackmagic LF Camera - Is Full Frame ever coming?

PostThu Feb 16, 2023 5:29 am

I have just finished replacing my two BMPCC 4k's, with 2 used Panasonic S1H cameras.
I would have gone BMPCC 6k, but the EF mount locked me out of using my Voigtlander lenses.
I initially picked up a Zcam f6. Mechanically, lot's of excellent things. But the lack of proper implementation of Raw over HDMI to the BM Video assist, left me not having a lot of faith in the future of Zcam. Not being able to have record control and timecode over Hdmi, was simply just a big issue for me.

That being said, the S1H is also an amazing camera. I'm getting some amazing footage using the Video assist to record Braw. I did some testing, and the image shooting 5.6k anamorphic at 8:1 is better and sharper than shooting s35 4k at 3:1, with only a 10% increase in file size,
And I like that it has both IBIS and an OLP filter. It's a little smaller package, that's simply a little easier to balance on the RS3 gimbal as well.

I'm hoping Blackmagic releases a cube camera with an L-mount.
If not, I'll be sticking with the panasonic.

Mark
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0972296/
Previous

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kätlin and 17 guests