Pocket Cinema Camera "Blooming Sensor" 2

So, if you have links to the examples where you witnessed this specific anomaly in a lamp or similar, I would like to see them.

From my hands-on experience with the camera in question, I disagree with you: the issue is not unlike John's example.

:24 - in a lamp
:35 - in a lamp
:39 - in a lamp
:44 - not in a lamp initially but oddly appears in a lamp as man passes in front
:47 - in a lamp
:56 - in a lamp

...and white orbs all through it.

Trust me, I am not at all surprised that you disagree with my observation. JB remains "unconvinced" and BMD made a conscious decision NOT to refer to the white orbs as an "issue".

I think you can probably find your own black holes in the sun examples...be sure to compare them with the small black speck in JB's Arri example so we can disagree some more.

http://www.newsshooter.com/2013/08/30/b ... t-1600asa/

Here's the article...it has a real manly man's black hole example in the sun that withers the girlie Arri example JB likes to use.

So, if you have links to the examples where you witnessed this specific anomaly in a lamp or similar, I would like to see them.

From my hands-on experience with the camera in question, I disagree with you: the issue is not unlike John's example.

:24 - in a lamp
:35 - in a lamp
:39 - in a lamp
:44 - not in a lamp initially but oddly appears in a lamp as man passes in front
:47 - in a lamp
:56 - in a lamp

...and white orbs all through it.

Trust me, I am not at all surprised that you disagree with my observation. JB remains "unconvinced" and BMD made a conscious decision NOT to refer to the white orbs as an "issue".

I think you can probably find your own black holes in the sun examples...be sure to compare them with the small black speck in JB's Arri example so we can disagree some more.

Here is where our discrepancy comes from:

lamp
lamp/
noun
1.
a device for giving light, either one consisting of an electric bulb together with its holder and shade or cover, or one burning gas or a liquid fuel and consisting of a wick or mantle and a glass shade.
"a table lamp"



Just glancing at your first two examples, you were referring to bare bulbs, in which case this doesn't happen at all times. Again, Eli posted a video of a very overexposed bulb, the black spot was nowhere to be found.

In the end, no, I do not see it as a major issue. If the content is important enough to begin with, you:

A. Will consider it important enough to fix in post, like most productions.
B. Will recognize that it is what it is, if it cannot be fixed, and move on to either another camera or creating content.

Christian H posted very simple, logical, responsible ideas and reactions that I would expect most professionals to have... I'm also realizing that most people here and elsewhere do think like that, and simply aren't as vocal as the other kind.

Semantics? Really Kholi?

Read the review. Many feel it is a problem. Think outside your box...

It's not blooming, it's hard clipping in highlights. It's not film, it's digital. Just expose correctly.

Finally, a proper unflinching test from Dan Chung:



Personally I have never seen a clipped highlight bigger than a car before.

Clipped highlights simply don't look like this on any other camera.

Clipped highlight do not start in the middle of a road.

Don't care what you call it, it's going to stop me from using it on anything serious.

Black sun spots, black torch, black bulbs, black anything too bright is bad enough, they cause you a hassle in post. This issue though is irreversible.'

It's a mistake for ambassadors like John to play down the severity of the fault. Until now I believe John was more a beta tester, now it seems like "marketing guy" would be a better description. Disappointing behaviour.

This kind of fault wouldn't be tolerated by Canon, Nikon, Sony or Panasonic users so I don't know why Blackmagic think they can ship a product as flawed as this and not ruin their reputation.

You're right. Looked at the Dan Chung's test. This indeed looks bad.

Semantics? Really Kholi?

Read the review. Many feel it is a problem. Think outside your box...

=[ How does clarifying the definition of a talking point (lamp) boil down to semantics? You used the word improperly, at least the English Language definition of the word, which lead me to believe that you had seen simple house lamps exhibiting this issue.

I'm also noticing that you're attempting to turn a pretty simple, harmless debate on a technical subject into a personal one, and at the same time being rather hypocritical. Let's not and pretend we did... I stand to lose more than you do by engaging in that. xD

Austin, would you mind sharing it?

This is my random footage just to show the light orb.

It's not blooming, it's hard clipping in highlights. It's not film, it's digital. Just expose correctly.

Finally, a proper unflinching test from Dan Chung:



Personally I have never seen a clipped highlight bigger than a car before.

Clipped highlights simply don't look like this on any other camera.

Clipped highlight do not start in the middle of a road.

Don't care what you call it, it's going to stop me from using it on anything serious.

Black sun spots, black torch, black bulbs, black anything too bright is bad enough, they cause you a hassle in post. This issue though is irreversible.

It's a mistake for ambassadors like John to play down the severity of the fault. Until now I believe John was more a beta tester, now it seems like "marketing guy" would be a better description. Disappointing behaviour.

This kind of fault wouldn't be tolerated by Canon, Nikon, Sony or Panasonic users so I don't know why Blackmagic think they can ship a product as flawed as this and not ruin their reputation.

Wow, that image really... well.. that really was worse then I expected. This issue is really, well, this is really serious.

=[ How does clarifying the definition of a talking point (lamp) boil down to semantics? You used the word improperly, at least the English Language definition of the word, which lead me to believe that you had seen simple house lamps exhibiting this issue.

I'm also noticing that you're attempting to turn a pretty simple, harmless debate on a technical subject into a personal one, and at the same time being rather hypocritical. Let's not and pretend we did... I stand to lose more than you do by engaging in that. xD

Here's how Webster defines the word:

Definition of LAMP
1
a : any of various devices for producing light or sometimes heat: as (1) : a vessel with a wick for burning an inflammable liquid (as oil) to produce light (2) : a glass bulb or tube that emits light produced by electricity (as an incandescent lightbulb or fluorescent lamp)
b : a decorative appliance housing a lamp that is usually covered by a shade

Apparently you see what you want to see and disregard the rest.

Semantics aside because only some people recognize that words have different meanings for different people and trying to understand people who don't only leads to frustration, the orbs and black holes are considered by most to be a problem...dare I say an issue...and needs addressing and fixing.

Never eat your own PR. It's too l8 to pretend we did.

Austin, would you mind sharing it?

This is my random footage just to show the light orb.

This really is a great example. But I would suggest this isn't as random a test as you think.

It is incredibly interesting to me the way the orbs reduce in size as the train passes thru the frame. When it is far away the size of the circles that let's say they are tracking the highlight points on the train, completely obliterate the front of the train. As it gets nearer the "orbs" reduce in size, till the point where as the train passes through frame they are the size of the front headlights. Why aren't they the same size as when we first saw them. Or why aren't they smaller in the distance and get larger as they get nearer to us. It is as if the size of the circular disc around the heart of the highlight is a fixed size. This is why in Dan Chung's footage a highlight on a car seen at a distance can engulf the whole car.

What does this mean, I have no idea but it is very interesting, but ultimately very, very depressing. I was really looking forward to getting my hands on this little beauty.

Richard Squires
Broadcast Designer/Director
Melbourne Australia

Austin, would you mind sharing it?

This is my random footage just to show the light orb.

Thanks Austin. Your example is informative.

It is incredibly interesting to me the way the orbs reduce in size as the train passes thru the frame. When it is far away the size of the circles that let's say they are tracking the highlight points on the train, completely obliterate the front of the train. As it gets nearer the "orbs" reduce in size, till the point where as the train passes through frame they are the size of the front headlights.

Thanks Richard, I found that interesting too.

Thanks Austin. Your example is informative.

No problem, glad to help.

It is incredibly interesting to me the way the orbs reduce in size as the train passes thru the frame. When it is far away the size of the circles that let's say they are tracking the highlight points on the train, completely obliterate the front of the train. As it gets nearer the "orbs" reduce in size, till the point where as the train passes through frame they are the size of the front headlights.

Thanks Richard, I found that interesting too.

Dan Chung's example has the same characteristics:

Having another think about the train example above it leads me to this conclusion.

Before I proceed I am not a sensor scientist. I am a graphic designer. Please flagellate me as you see fit.

Considering the size of the circle does not seem to change much in the train example it leads me to the conclusion that it is a fairly fixed amount by which the bleed occurs. The sensor is the only thing fixed it cannot change it's size and it cannot expand or contract it's photosite count. If a highlight bleeds a certain amount then a small one seen from a distance would have the same effect as one seen up close in that it's charge bleeds at a given distance across adjacent photosites.

If this was software related and was highlight clipping the size of the bloom would be comparable to the size of the highlight. A highlight from a distance would be small, one up close would be large.

I prepare for the barrage of you have no idea what you are talking about, but that's my 2 cents worth

There is an issue.

The images recorded by this camera don't always look like what we expected them to look when we heard the camera had the same sensor as the CC 2k5. This is frustrating for people who waited the whole summer for this camera, always imagining what they'd shoot once the camera arrived.

Those who already have the camera can decide for themselves if this issue bothers them. For some it's no biggy. For others it's a no-go. And both are right. Let's not forget that everyone has very different needs and experiences.

Those who are not bothered by this issue: please, accept that others are bothered, and don't insult them by telling them again and again that they should not complain - it's their right to complain.

Those who are bothered by this issue: please, accept that others either don't see or don't care about it and are just happy with their camera. It's their right to be proud of their camera.

I am happy for everyone who already can enjoy the wonderfull images this camera can capture. Yet i am anxious how the camera will perform when i'm going to film rock concerts on a brightly lit stage: the polished instruments, drum sets and even microphone poles might be covered in white orbs...

Still i keep my preorder for the pocket camera up, i want to evaluate its performance in my line of work with my own eyes. Maybe once correctly exposed the footage will come out just fine. Yet maybe i'll find that underexposing until the orbs vanish results in unliftable shadows, even 13 stops is a limit.

To me it's clear that underexposing will not solve it, nor exposing it correctly. Only BMD can say what can be done. Even their initial findings would help a lot.

[Kristian Lam]

Hi guys,

My colleague, Tony Rivera, had already posted a response stating that we are looking into this 2 days after the initial report.

We are still working on it and will have more details soon. In the meantime, please be nice to each other.

Hi guys,

My colleague, Tony Rivera, had already posted a response stating that we are looking into this 2 days after the initial report.

We are still working on it and will have more details soon. In the meantime, please be nice to each other.

Thank you Kristian, that's very good news.

I love my camera and I'm used to working around limitations, but glint light has the potential to be very beautiful and I would prefer to not be forced to avoid it.

Hi guys,

My colleague, Tony Rivera, had already posted a response stating that we are looking into this 2 days after the initial report.

We are still working on it and will have more details soon. In the meantime, please be nice to each other.

+1

Use a variable star filter at night that should do the trick...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/9 ... creen.html

It´s funny, but not a fix. Here´s my 90% joke- 10% solution tip on vimeo:

Those who are not bothered by this issue: please, accept that others are bothered, and don't insult them by telling them again and again that they should not complain - it's their right to complain.

Those who are bothered by this issue: please, accept that others either don't see or don't care about it and are just happy with their camera. It's their right to be proud of their camera.

I am happy for everyone who already can enjoy the wonderfull images this camera can capture. Yet i am anxious how the camera will perform when i'm going to film rock concerts on a brightly lit stage: the polished instruments, drum sets and even microphone poles might be covered in white orbs...

Still i keep my preorder for the pocket camera up, i want to evaluate its performance in my line of work with my own eyes. Maybe once correctly exposed the footage will come out just fine. Yet maybe i'll find that underexposing until the orbs vanish results in unliftable shadows, even 13 stops is a limit.

I am afraid I have to, courteously, disagree. This is a $1000.00 camera that has a very snazzy website that boasts incredible specs. People who buy this camera should not be mislead into thinking this Pocket Camera is similar to the BMCC ( it's tiny little brother/sister) because in many areas it is flawed. The sound is incredibly poor picking up more contact sounds than even phone cameras ( negating it's use as a pocket camera IMHO), it chews through batteries and this sensor bloom issue is very very serious. The first 2 I can live with. The last one is a deal breaker for me and I would hope for anyone putting down cash for it as their A cam. Yes you could use this as a B cam in controlled conditions, but for people who want this as their A cam it will be challenged in many areas where highlights occur and where picture quality is essential. I am sure for many professionals the pros, ( small size, cheapness in comparison) will outway these issues. Take the original GoPro. It was used extensively on shows like Top Gear and it never had great image specs. It was just so tiny and you could put it anywhere. That factor alone outweighed it's obvious lacking in the picture quality area. I am sure John Brawley would not shoot the majority of his work on this camera. It's use is reserved for cut away shots, or ones that you just couldn't get because of space restriction. I also heard him say that he used the original BMCC ( or maybe it was the pocket - not sure) because for more intimate scenes it was less intimidating than a massive Alexa set up.

Regarding the correctly exposed footage, it has been shown earlier in a test clip that no amount of under exposing gets rid of the bloom highlight.

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11977&p=75369#p75366

I would seriously steer clear of this camera if you are thinking of using it to shoot rock concerts. It is not a question of whether all that shiny gear maybe covered in white orbs. It will be and I would put money on it. In fact I am hard pressed to think of a worse situation to be in with this camera.

So I am glad you are anxious about it, I am too and even though I might appear here to be totally negative about it, yet I still have my pre-order. So go figure. I just hope they sort it out. And I hope we both get cameras we are happy with.

Richard Squires
Broadcast Designer/Director
Melbourne Australia

First they came for the pocket cameras.
But I didn't speak because I didn't want a pocket camera....

There is nothing wrong with BMD. What's wrong is the abuse on the BMD forum. A few very vocal individual potential end users that clearly have nothing better to do come here to question, accuse and complain. They expect BMD to have as much free time to waste here coddling them as they have to troll here while doing nothing. BMD made a statement. BMD is trying to deliver something. If you were, you'd have less time to come here and bitch.

And honestly, John Brawley doesn't need me to defend him, but some of the crap that's been directed at him by people not qualified to carry his filter case (yeah you Honey Badger) is flat out stupid.

Do something. Make something. Suggest. Contribute. And be patient.

We will have more details soon.

We appreciate that. This whole debate is just time and effort consumed.

Hi guys,

My colleague, Tony Rivera, had already posted a response stating that we are looking into this 2 days after the initial report.

We are still working on it and will have more details soon. In the meantime, please be nice to each other.

+1111111111111

Hi guys,

My colleague, Tony Rivera, had already posted a response stating that we are looking into this 2 days after the initial report.

We are still working on it and will have more details soon. In the meantime, please be nice to each other.

Is it a high priority or are other improvements more important. Just curious.

There is nothing wrong with BMD. What's wrong is the abuse on the BMD forum. A few very vocal individual potential end users that clearly have nothing better to do come here to question, accuse and complain. They expect BMD to have as much free time to waste here coddling them as they have to troll here while doing nothing. BMD made a statement. BMD is trying to deliver something. If you were, you'd have less time to come here and bitch.

And honestly, John Brawley doesn't need me to defend him, but some of the crap that's been directed at him by people not qualified to carry his filter case (yeah you Honey Badger) is flat out stupid.

Do something. Make something. Suggest. Contribute. And be patient.

A forum is a place where free speech has to be tolerated. Yes some of it is incredibly tiresome, troll like, I do agree, but to say there is nothing wrong with BMD is slightly disingenuous. Remember this is not the first time this has happened, pushed back deliver dates, broken promises and from where I am standing faulty hardware. If a forum was a place where only nice things were said about your company then boy that would be one unique company. At least the moderators frequent and are active on this forum, and that this issue which seems to have only become apparent in the last few days, ( this baffles me ) is being taken seriously. True the trolls I can absolutely do without.

I am sure Blackmagic are scrambling to fix this issue, of course nothing can be done in a few days, but I think an official word from Grant Petty would be very worthwhile here. This is as big an issue as the last sensor glue issue was, it needs to be treated as such. And yes I am a vocal potential end user, it's the weekend here in Melbourne and I'm sitting writing this, but I want to know that if I spend $999.00 on a camera then I at least get what I am paying for, and what was advertised by Blackmagic Design. That is why I have subscribed to this topic. It is an important purchase and I am doing my due diligence in finding out as much as I possibly can about the camera before I commit.

Richard Squires
Broadcast Designer/Director
Melbourne Australia

Hi guys,

My colleague, Tony Rivera, had already posted a response stating that we are looking into this 2 days after the initial report.

We are still working on it and will have more details soon. In the meantime, please be nice to each other.

[Kristian Lam]

Richard

You can be assured that what I say here on the forum is very official as well.

Kristian Lam
Blackmagic Design

That is why I have subscribed to this topic. It is an important purchase and I am doing my due diligence in finding out as much as I possibly can about the camera before I commit.

Richard Squires
Broadcast Designer/Director
Melbourne Australia

As you should. But people re-re-posting frame grabs, making purely speculative accusations, discrediting legitimate contributors, stomping feet and demanding immediate answers to soothe their self generated anxiety is, well, stupid.

BMD has been honest and forthcoming in the past and I imagine will be in the future. Once again, they're actually doing the work to figure this out. I'd be more uneasy with a fast answer from them that turned up wrong than a slow correct one.

, but I think an official word from Grant Petty would be very worthwhile here. This is as big an issue as the last sensor glue issue was,

Kristian Lam is the camera product manager.

It doesn't get any more official.

jb

Richard

You can be assured that what I say here on the forum is very official as well.

Kristian Lam
Blackmagic Design

Thankyou Kristian, that's good to know

, but I think an official word from Grant Petty would be very worthwhile here. This is as big an issue as the last sensor glue issue was,

Kristian Lam is the camera product manager.

It doesn't get any more official.

jb

Agreed and it does put me much more at ease that we have one of the senior product managers answering our questions here. But the public face of Blackmagic Design is Grant, as Steve Jobs was to Apple, and I see this issue in a similar context to the aerial issue that the iPhone had. It will be good to hear from him too.

That is why I have subscribed to this topic. It is an important purchase and I am doing my due diligence in finding out as much as I possibly can about the camera before I commit.

Richard Squires
Broadcast Designer/Director
Melbourne Australia

As you should. But people re-re-posting frame grabs, making purely speculative accusations, discrediting legitimate contributors, stomping feet and demanding immediate answers to soothe their self generated anxiety is, well, stupid.

BMD has been honest and forthcoming in the past and I imagine will be in the future. Once again, they're actually doing the work to figure this out. I'd be more uneasy with a fast answer from them that turned up wrong than a slow correct one.

Agreed

It will be good to hear from him too.

To hear him say "we're working on it" ?

jb

A forum is a place where free speech has to be tolerated.

On a public one perhaps, i.e. a piece of public land designated for public gatherings. Even then not all free speech is tolerated.

On a forum that is private property (which this one is) - the owners set all the rules.

And also Richard, Australia does not actually have freedom of speech in any constitutional declaration.

Not that it's ever stopped us.

It will be good to hear from him too.

To hear him say "we're working on it" ?

jb

No. I'd like a bit of transparency, and him to write something along the lines of I am getting pretty sick of our sensor suppliers stuffing us around. If I was him I'd be livid. This is the reason I am not CEO of a company.

Doesn't look as bad on these clips. What do you think?

Just on the reflection of the sun in the train's front window. It seems the night shots with headlights and strong street lamps are the bane of the camera with specular light on water and metal also frequently problematic.

Rick Lang
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Thank you Kristian,
We very much appreciate your official response and I would ask if you could please give us a slight bit of detail on the kind of testing you guys are using to analyze the issue? Mostly just curious, but it's good to get a peek behind the curtain on whats going on, on your end.

Thanks

. . . Besides it's not like I spend my days shooting into the sun . . .

+1

. . . as Steve Jobs was to Apple, and I see this issue in a similar context to the aerial issue that the iPhone had. It will be good to hear from him too.

Can't . . . he's dead.

In a bizarre coincidence today I actually got my hands on a Pocket Cinema Camera. I was out in Melbourne and spotted someone shooting with a BMCC. I went over and asked how long he'd had it. He said he actually worked for Blackmagic. His name was Jason and I told him I had the Pocket on pre order. He said wait a minute, I have one in my bag. So for a few precious moments I actually had my mitts on the camera. It is a gorgeous thing to hold, and I didn't have the heart to tell him I'd been doing my nut about the "issue". It confirmed in my mind that this little machine is worth the wait

We have a BMPCC, and it does feel nice: BUT we intended to film in noir style like in "After Hours" meets "Touch of Evil" and this seems to be impossible with the blooming sensor. So, this camera may be great, is great, for certain limited purposes but is not something that we can use. So much for our S16 glass, and MTF lenses accumulated for this project. Could we switch to the BMCC, not with our cine S16 lenses. And right now there is no other S16 camera shipping.

We also intended to film some street scenes without notice, and a bigger camera will not work. Filming in countries that do not necessarily like film crews, and will instantly stop any "pro" video camera crew. Hence, this camera was the only alternative for this style of underground shooting. There are no alternatives unless you think the GH3 would work, and that will not give us the "noir" look we want with visible shadows under bright lights.

So, do we stand down the production? It was our mistake, thinking that we could finally film this script with an untested camera. Like everyone else we simply thought it was a BMCC with lower resolution, which was fine as long as we could create impact with contrast. Perhaps we made the camera into something it simply is not, a lower res version of the BMCC. Low budget mistake.

Hi guys,

My colleague, Tony Rivera, had already posted a response stating that we are looking into this 2 days after the initial report.

We are still working on it and will have more details soon. In the meantime, please be nice to each other.

Thanks for the update Kristian,

We also intended to film some street scenes without notice, and a bigger camera will not work. Filming in countries that do not necessarily like film crews, and will instantly stop any "pro" video camera crew.

So, do we stand down the production? It was our mistake, thinking that we could finally film this script with an untested camera. Like everyone else we simply thought it was a BMCC with lower resolution, which was fine as long as we could create impact with contrast. Perhaps we made the camera into something it simply is not, a lower res version of the BMCC. Low budget mistake.

where are you filming? filming in public place doesn't require permission.

We also intended to film some street scenes without notice, and a bigger camera will not work. Filming in countries that do not necessarily like film crews, and will instantly stop any "pro" video camera crew.

So, do we stand down the production? It was our mistake, thinking that we could finally film this script with an untested camera. Like everyone else we simply thought it was a BMCC with lower resolution, which was fine as long as we could create impact with contrast. Perhaps we made the camera into something it simply is not, a lower res version of the BMCC. Low budget mistake.

where are you filming? filming in public place doesn't require permission.

It does in India, big time. Especially, in historical preservation areas. Already have been detained by police.

=[ How does clarifying the definition of a talking point (lamp) boil down to semantics? You used the word improperly, at least the English Language definition of the word, which lead me to believe that you had seen simple house lamps exhibiting this issue.

I'm also noticing that you're attempting to turn a pretty simple, harmless debate on a technical subject into a personal one, and at the same time being rather hypocritical. Let's not and pretend we did... I stand to lose more than you do by engaging in that. xD

Here's how Webster defines the word:

Definition of LAMP
1
a : any of various devices for producing light or sometimes heat: as (1) : a vessel with a wick for burning an inflammable liquid (as oil) to produce light (2) : a glass bulb or tube that emits light produced by electricity (as an incandescent lightbulb or fluorescent lamp)
b : a decorative appliance housing a lamp that is usually covered by a shade

Apparently you see what you want to see and disregard the rest.

Semantics aside because only some people recognize that words have different meanings for different people and trying to understand people who don't only leads to frustration, the orbs and black holes are considered by most to be a problem...dare I say an issue...and needs addressing and fixing.

Never eat your own PR. It's too l8 to pretend we did.

+1

We also intended to film some street scenes without notice, and a bigger camera will not work. Filming in countries that do not necessarily like film crews, and will instantly stop any "pro" video camera crew.

So, do we stand down the production? It was our mistake, thinking that we could finally film this script with an untested camera. Like everyone else we simply thought it was a BMCC with lower resolution, which was fine as long as we could create impact with contrast. Perhaps we made the camera into something it simply is not, a lower res version of the BMCC. Low budget mistake.

where are you filming? filming in public place doesn't require permission.

It does in India, big time. Especially, in historical preservation areas. Already have been detained by police.

A GH3 would be a better alternative, the video is very good, you may be able to pull it off during post production. there was a short movie called Genesis shot with a GH3.

Use a variable star filter at night that should do the trick...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/9 ... creen.html

It´s funny, but not a fix. Here´s my 90% joke- 10% solution tip on vimeo:

Looks good! Certainly a post workaround if the problem is not cleared up by a firmware. If you are shooting a doc or narrative make your final cut and, isolate the shots with blooming you just have to have and figure out a post FX.
The audience will hopefully so engrossed in your sheer genius for dramatic narrative that they will not notice a few star bright headlights.
With regard to filters there are dozens of star and anamorphic light streaking glass you can use screw on, 4X4, 6X4 to mask ugly light sources or enhance a scene for mood or style. This is a $1k pocket camera figure it out! The +'s on this little brilliant camera out the box outweigh the -'s by 100-1.