BMPCC 4k General issues, bug reports, Feature requests

My favourite exterior sunlit example of harsh highlights is that cow that was posted on the forum ages ago.


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There is old over 30 stop sensor technology with great colour. Unfortunately, the cinema companies don't want to adopt the technology. What's happening is that the Alexa looks OK, and this closer you get to 16/17 the more close it looks to our understanding of how things look in real life.

But John, you misunderstand it, with extreme dynamic ranges, you decide what clips, and how the clip looks. You can decide where to put the range and preserve a natural look, or a wide range look etc. You can film in broad daylight without filters and make it lok like night time and the sun look like the moon. You. An emulate dusk etc, because all the data is there to do it without clipping or other unreasonable constraints.

Rick and guys, the next big thing is not only glasses free high framerate, dynamic range, colour gamut, bit depth 3D, its computational photography. I am currently looking at his to design a cheap 24k camera. Once the next giant leap in computer circuit technology happens (working on that) it will be easy. At the moment it can be done, but a bit of a struggle on silicon, even with all the stuff I know about (10x+ performance increase on cpu processing, maybe 100x+ maybe on asic with some ideas, yes there is actually a good is a God hybrid scheme coming to mind). The memory solution I have in mind is cheap to and many times more memory. It would be medium format a should fit on your pocket (cargo pants, like the current pocket). Big investment and lots of skills needed, and some good industry connections to get the tech together, way outside a garage development. Maybe a few years of high level development. Cheap, buy 10.

Anyway, computational photography, allows you to artistically jig the image how you like. Been thinking about techniques for a very long time, and knew a guy that seems to be doing in a business what I had previously planned many years before. The technology is out there now and should be hitting pro production already, but I've loss contact with the guy (super secretive).

So, yes, a few quality steps and then you could get a pro video quality 24k computational photography video camera in your pocket.


Rick, Apple etc hasn't peaked, I'm a king of WT_ designs, there is plenty they could do. But when you get big companies they get bloated and slow, and they get the wrong people working there and in charge, it limits. It's not that more can t be done, you should see my mobile phone designs. But inevitably performance and quality increases reach a point where more is not so good, and good new design trends for end users runs out.
You then need to do something better. A long time ago I planned a company much bigger than google or apple, they simply aren't doing as much as they could. I've been back dooring google for years get improvements into android, because I already knew how to do it from my own design work. That is what it is like, a lot of theae things are obvious, yet year after year they aren't implemented in android, until I get annoyed enough, and send them a message, then withing one or two development cycles, its there is some form (not his I would choose to do it most of the time). A lot of people have problems with the obvious. So things are not as advanced as you might think behind the scenes in companies. Where as I'm the sort of person which figures out new ways to mame development teams to increase quality, security and efficiency. So, if a team can't get what they know right and miss the obvious, how are they going come up with the ground breakingly new on a regular basis. These companies also buy in others designs, which the customer then thinks they innovated on. It's that bad.

We’re all painters.

Let's hope so! This is one was painted around 1600. If it was the BMPCC4k, people would be complaining about "harsh" highlight rolloff:

875px-The_Calling_of_Saint_Matthew-Caravaggo_(1599-1600).jpg

If Rembrandt's portraits were done today I am sure the internets would be ablaze complaining about no detail in the shadows, lack of sharpness, and how video-like it looks.

He wasn't that great. David, look him up. Mars and Venus.

Rembrandt wasn't that great. Mediocre artists get lighting techniques named after them all the time!

Just reminds me of my friends uncle's father in law, what's his name, Rolf Harris.

Nice discussion on the artistic merits of change. Wayne I was not thinking about 30 stops of dynamic range. I’d think of trying to reach 20 stops if possible in a prosumer camera as the next important innovation; I’d rather have that than computational photography. YMMV.


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It would be nice to see simple but very useful function in BMPCC4K. Ability to delete single, displayed clip. Now U need to put your card to computer, to do this. But U do not have it always with U. So clip, file delete function in camera would be great.

+1.

It's unbelievable it's not possible. Every digital camera I have can do this, except maybe the credit card one with 16+ stops.

Wayne I was not thinking about 30 stops of dynamic range. I’d think of trying to reach 20 stops if possible in a prosumer camera as the next important innovation; I’d rather have that than computational photography.

Just pointing out how old even 30 stops with great colour is. The tech is out there. That tech started out in 1976 I think with less stops. I've tracked down the old tech in my credit card camera which is now more than 20 stops I think, and its being used in phones. There were 16-20 stop HDR sensor chips in some car cams a few years ago. Samsung has just released an 0.8 micron pixel 64 mp mobile phone sensor with instantaneous 16 stop dynamic range which means in one frame. There is no real reason not to have quality 16 stop+ single frame these days, instead of Sony's, not as good as their top cam.

An issue in the past, was to reach higher quality, they simplified the pixel circuit sacrificing features like this, but improved native HDR. We might see native 20 stop Red sensors soon (they already are over 17 stops, and a larger pixel sensor might do it soon). But, especially Sony etc, noise nvslow enough, they should do more hdr features.

Let's hope so! This is one was painted around 1600. If it was the BMPCC4k, people would be complaining about "harsh" highlight rolloff:

Which reminds me of this: http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.c ... ernet.html.

Very funny indeed, but I hope our armchair quarterback critiques here aren’t the intended target. Something to keep in mind when we give an opinion about someone’s efforts. All good... well maybe... unless it’s blurry... most of the time?


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Rick, speaking of arm chair quarter backs. Some have got it, some don't really but can copy other's styles they learn, and some don't. Dealing with professional arm chair quarter backs, they are arrogant and narrow minded pains in the. Rather than be humble and open to what is better that is not up on the pecking order, due to a power fetish (somebody say very true) they define things by pecking order and others motivation as being the same. Because they are arm chair quater backs concerning the profession of thinking, lacking real insights into thinking smd understanding. Fewer bettet scientists and engineers research these things and define standards, but not many of these are innovators that actually understand and set the trends, so generally their knowledge is deficient. There are not many "professionals" that are good at any of these things. But we always get these armchair quarter back thinkers thinking they know it, but in reality knowing little and not able to see more. Negative blusters of wind. I'm an innovator, and you will notice, I don't worry much about trying to explain things to them, expecting them to be reasonable open minded thinkers anymore.. They will do their little mess and move on, like that fictitious article posted. Not knowing the artical was a fake at first, I could see the value of style in the photos, versus the dogma of little knowledge structured as rules portrayed. Mind you, some of the latter photos did go too far in some areas. But the comment about having more blue in the sky, was incredulous. 'The moment is the moment, If you can make it work, good to you.'.

I had a friend who had done tens of thousands of photos in his collection. But I don't think much of what I glanced had good form. He had a friend, a simple man with some issue, who used to take heaps of photos with his pocket camera. My friend was rather negative about them, that the guy was never going to get anywhere. When I looked at them, I looked at his form and structure to encourage the guy in the concepts, so he could improve himself and achieve what he could achieve. E of us was trying to write him off, and one of us was trying to encourage him to achieve what he could reasonably achieve. We see that around here.

I think the highlight clipping on the P4k looks too harse even in cdng (yes, you can work that on set, but extra work and live in the field it's not so simple). I even thought the mini 4.6k was a little harsh at first (it's something to do with the internal circuit, not just the dynamic range you compensate for). On a more expensive production you just use mini or Alexa and font worry about it.


Somebody was talking about the price of the p4k, there is a cheap version of zcam e2 coming at $699. I am hoping for a micro 4k at the price, with LCD, even an 8k nano using the Sony mobile chip (but unlikely).

NOW, what was the topic of this thread. Let's move on.

My feature request is for BM to move to a lower energy asci processing technology ,(where pocket 8k can be hskd the size). There has been many processing arrays, even from creative technologies (though old now) and gpu's can have asci hardware encoders inbuilt, and some mobile chips everything inbuilt. Each represents a lower level of power consumption and compactness. The new E2 units are supposed to be using Nvidia arm chips with cuda GPUs in them, as one example. If you could only get the latest credit card sized Jetson embedded board for camera drones for $100 or less, that would run the whole camera, maybe to post ,8k raw.

On firmware update, better braw so you don't loose any detail, or detail contrast, which has been absolutely shown before, and no macro blocking (and solve that edge problem in YUV colour space). Would be great to have an 4k Alexa in your pocket. Which reminds me, jigging the way the circuit works (see other threads) to get 15-20 stops. I had some fancy ideas to force nonlinearity in sensor light pickup in a dignified way (compared to conventional dual exposure HDR), or possibly destroy sensors (testing). Would make a potential future micro look a lot better as well. That would be a great firmware update for September show.

When you’re a DoP controlling not only light ratios but also lighting or not for artistic intent for interior and exterior, the BMPC4K is probably a good tool. But I’m more the videographer recording real-time events over which I have a little control, but far from being a cinematographer. A good part is still in my control though as the editor (except for blown highlights) which is why I value shooting in raw over ProRes and am grateful for each increase in dynamic range. Going to BRAW has it’s huge benefits but I’ll need to learn about getting good results.

I’m sure I’ll start off by protecting my interior shadows most of the time as I learn how the new sensor performs and living with the results. Some shoots will benefit from letting the shadows go dark to protect interior highlights. My shoot next week would have been the best time to test out darker shadows as I’m doing a murder mystery, but the delivery of my BMPCC4K is itself a mystery. My music festival at month end is not the time to let scene’s go dark even though I might like it.

Will be interesting when I see blown highlights to know if the producer is bothered by them. This stuff is all for the web so I am not constrained by broadcast requirements.


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Hi!
I have a question about 1080 recording on pocket 4K.
In user manual i see that 1080 60p should record in BRAW an ProRes in full sensor mode. Only in 120p it should be with crop.
But in real live 1080 BRAW recording i crop mode, and only in ProRes recording in full sensor mode.

Is it ok, or something wrong?

This is an error in the manual previously identified and will be corrected. BRAW 1080p is always in a window. ProRes 1080p60 can be from the UHD window (equivalent of full sensor) or cropped in a window up to 1080p120. Hope I got the last sentence right.


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Curious. Is the 4k data in Bayer, or quad Bayer format? Some thought it might be quad Bayer, which could give 1080p Bayer.

This is an error in the manual previously identified and will be corrected. BRAW 1080p is always in a window.

Hope in future Blackmagic can change this thing by firmware update. it's really sad that i can't use BRAW in 1080 because crop factor:(
ProRes is not bad, but i prefer to use BRAW at 1080 60p without crop and be happy by my perfect camera:)

If it is a quad Bayer sensor you can (has anybody checked the native undemosaiced cdng sensor pattern on a coloured background?). But if it isn't, it becomes a mixed pixel color pixel, which they aren't using braw for. They can process it I emulate a bayer pattern at full sensor, but better to extend raw to do component 4:2:2/4:4:4 12bit+ video without the image baked in.

However, you could just film 4k braw and downscale it Maksim?

I, like many others would like to soon see a Super 16 4K or 3K crop/window mode for allowance of Super 16/16mm C-Mount and other mount lenses just as the original BMPCC was and most were hoping for a 4K version of that legendary camera please.
Yes, I have contacted BMD about this 6 months ago but I see no update as yet......

Hi everybody, I want to make a couple of Feature Request. (If exist other post to do this please let me know)

- Face recognition in order to use gimbal with focus on faces.
- Central/standard autofocus, to do the same with gimbal.
- As cebra in the highlights, noise in the shadows - (False color doesn't mean noise).
- Option for bigger histogram to adjust better the light

Thank you.

Jean, I suspect they will make bigger sensors, not smaller.

Jean, I thinkmthe closest we are going to get to a 4K S16 Camera, is the Ursa Broadcast, with the B4 mount removed, and replaced with the PL mount. This allows vintage S16 lenses, and comes a close as we are likely to come to a S16 Cine Camera.
Cheers

Convenient as the HFR button is, it's probably a mistake -- too easy to hit by accident, and the change in display is easily missed, if you're not looking for it. Best thing might be for firmware to offer an option to disable it or wire it to something else, like the function keys.

Yes, OMG. This has happened to me twice so far. Once while operating it on A Ronin, so I'm already clustered (I do not like using the Ronin) and then again last night filming a Sea Turtle nesting * (with special permission and biologists present). I t was dark and I fumbled for the zoom in button for focus and I must have hit the HFR button. I didn't realize it right away (looking at an external monitor) so some of my clips are in 60FPS slo mo Turtles are already slow enough!

I do find it to be convenient rather than menu diving, but I wish it could be disabled. It's more harmful than helpful at this point.

another issue - powering Pocket 4K by Ronin-S.
DJI provide power cable which make 7.4V from original 12V from Ronin-S 4-pin connector which you can use with dummy battery. And i think 7.3-7.4 V is not enought for Pocket 4K with Metabones T CINE Speed Booster XL 0.64x. When i'm using canon 17-40mm sometimes camera make aperture 5.6 and when i'm trying change aperture camera going to reboot and after that make aperture 5.6 again.
with LP-E6 battery and V-mount powering i don't see this problem.

any suggestions?

Convenient as the HFR button is, it's probably a mistake ....

+1 Oh Yes. Please turn it into a changeable function button! I had already some shots messed up because of it. Or let us switch it out with the "Zoom in/out" Button that we might use way more often.

It would be so convinient to be able to see the histogram while interacting in the exposure/iris/iso settings!

Right now I have to rely on zebra and false color to compensate for the missing information. Or switch back and forth to check on it again.

Is it possible to add markers to footage while recording? It would be nice when a talent does multiple takes on a clip to be able to just mark a good take to save my editor time. If something like that isn't available I'd like to make that request.

It would be so convinient to be able to see the histogram while interacting in the exposure/iris/iso settings!

Right now I have to rely on zebra and false color to compensate for the missing information. Or switch back and forth to check on it again.

I agree with you. It's very annoying!

I continue to follow this thread since there a lot of good suggestions here.

But, it also reminds me that it's been a while since the last Pocket 4K firmware update...

What, You guys expect a firmware update every month?
Cheers

Well there are at least three people waiting for anamorphic desqueeze, hopefully 1.3x and 2x at a minimum.


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Well there are at least three people waiting for anamorphic desqueeze, hopefully 1.3x and 2x at a minimum.


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Make it four

Also interested in a 3K crop, but mainly for higher framerates without losing as much resolution and adding as much crop as 1080p does.

From a pixel/s count 3200x1800px at 96fps is very similar to 4096x2160px at 60fps.
Agree about the anamorphic desqueeze option. A nice feature indeed for many anamorphic shooters.
Also an option to turn off denoising for Braw/ProRes would be great.

seeing as this is the only thread I can find for future recommendations can we get the digital slate changed?

roll/scene/shot/take with alpha-numerical input for each please? will make logging easier getting that data into resolve

I wont go too far as in movies done until last century, Im gonna stick to the not so long ago Fury Road, where they were discussing how they were going to shoot the scenes inside the truck cabinet in a very sunny/bright day, thinking of putting some plastic films on the windows and stuff to workaround the problems and get were they wanted. And thats the thought existent since cinema creation: make it work.

Today everybody blames the gear saying "it doesnt do this or that" wanting a camera that does everything for them and they only need to press a button and voila! you got a great feature film!

Technology made making movies easier, cheapper and a lot more practical. And people dont need to put as much effort nowadays as they did in the past. Thus, movies are not made with all that care they used to have. And thats why I think we rarely see very good stories or "classics" being made today. Just high end movies that move close to no emotion.

Peace everyone. Lets focus on the art. Thats what is lacking today.

Hello Blackmagic,

Can you please enlarge the battery symbol / % / V by 25%-50%? THANKS!

seeing as this is the only thread I can find for future recommendations can we get the digital slate changed?

roll/scene/shot/take with alpha-numerical input for each please? will make logging easier getting that data into resolve

Agreed. Even adding the importing of pre done txt files from a card to select from so that I can prepare in advance the information.

Hello Blackmagic,

Can you please add Yellow and some non natural colors like PINK to the focus? THANKS!

Soon a crunch will come where normal cameras will be useful professionally, and phones, rather than buying a cinema camera. This would be a death defying challenge for companies. Sony plans holographic cameras I think, so they will be fine as a high end option. Red plans multipoint, which you can make a phone design do, not so safe until you get to the higher resolutions.

BM should incorporate professional level photography features in the pocket and micro now, with a dumber mode to follow, to establish sales in the second market before a crunch comes. The sakes should double, and be many times more by the time a crunch comes. Now is the time to develop presence before the photographic market suddenly dumps pro raw cinema and eng features into their cameras to survive, and any effort to put photographic into cinema becomes an after thought to the consumer. They should rename themselves to Black Art, but it's not April 1.

Weird behavior today shooting in the field - pressed record button and the camera started automatically cycling through all the ISOs on a loop, all the exposures flashing up and down continuously. Shut it down and turned it back on and everything was fine, but I've never seen any camera do that!