Pocket Cinema Camera "Blooming Sensor"

The pixel peepers have managed to probably halt shipments on something no casual watcher will ever notice, three cheers hip hip Hooray, hip ......

That's exactly what every DP I ever worked with would say. Image quality? Who needs it? It's just for elitists. Really, why have any pride in your craft? You really get it Jimmy. Thanks for chiming in.

We realize that this is an issue and take these questions seriously. We are addressing this and will give you folks an update when we have more information.

I saw this earlier and was actually impressed with BMD calling this an issue. It made me feel like they had the answer to solve it easily and hope to return to find some note of a firmware fix coming.

Now that it has been reworded, it sounds a bit concerning. Clearly, someone didn't want to call it an "issue" or that they are aware of it. Just for the record, I own a BMCC EF and have the pocket and 4k cam on preorder. I'm not a casual browser on here. I love my camera and use it exclusively. But this does seem like it may be a production delay to me of it's not a software issue.

Yes.
For BMD to all of a sudden choose and changes their words so carefully as if a politician... Well that seems like they are not gonna take the right approach here in order to solve this sensor "thing" issue
Yes, issue.
I spent $1095 on the camera with taxes and shipping... Plus another $1750 on accessories not to mentioned my $5000 spent on my ef bmc camera already and I'de like to know that the camera I'm buying will be able to capture highlights in a normal way as they advertise.
So please be honest with us customers.

[Terry Frechette]

I had changed that wording to clear up any confusion that I thought Tony's response might cause. The simple answer is that we are looking into this.

Sorry about the confusion.

Thanks for the no-nonsense response Terry. It's appreciated.

Has anybody done any comprehensive testing of how the various camera settings affect the white orbs (if at all obviously)? Since I don't have the camera myself I can only think of the things I'd test out if I would have noticed this problem on my own.

Things like:

High ASA vs. Low ASA, using ND to compensate for exposure so aperture/shutter remain constant.

Film vs. Video Recording Mode, seems unlikely but if it makes it at all better/worse that tells us something.

Shutter, again using ONLY ND to compensate for exposure.

DOF, it looks like the shots most affected are more deep focus, would like to see if the same shot done both deep and shallow is affected in the same way.

Sensor Heat, get the same shot of some orbs twice, once while the camera is cool, and once after running it for a few hours.

https://vimeo.com/73037044#

I had changed that wording to clear up any confusion that I thought Tony's response might cause. The simple answer is that we are looking into this.

Sorry about the confusion.

I thought the first message was particularly clear and responsible...that's why I noticed the change. The first message recognized the "issue", fully owned it and committed to a solution. The second message (and this restatement of the second message) is so much less committal that it is vague and confusing. You don't see that?

https://vimeo.com/73037044#

This camera is pretty amazing in low light, but this absolutely shows how the white orb issue can really ruin footage. When the lanterns pass the lights at around 10 seconds is where my heart sinks

https://vimeo.com/73037044#

This camera is pretty amazing in low light, but this absolutely shows how the white orb issue can really ruin footage. When the lanterns pass the lights at around 10 seconds is where my heart sinks

I think everyone now a just looking for it everywhere.... remember its a moving image NOT a still image. Most of the time it goes by without anyone noticing...

https://vimeo.com/73037044#

This camera is pretty amazing in low light, but this absolutely shows how the white orb issue can really ruin footage. When the lanterns pass the lights at around 10 seconds is where my heart sinks

I think everyone now a just looking for it everywhere.... remember its a moving image NOT a still image. Most of the time it goes by without anyone noticing...

Right. Until you have to execute a shot that fixed on a background that spells trouble. Then what do you do?.. The point is, you need a camera that is not crippled by anything let alone HIGHLIGHTS!

The big question persists! How BMD will handle this? Recall? Firmware? Or nothing can be done, this is a bmpcc characteristic...

The big question persists! How BMD will handle this? Recall? Firmware? Or nothing can be done, this is a bmpcc characteristic...

Ideally a firmware update.

Slightly less than ideal, a free hardware upgrade eventually, as cameras keep shipping.

Likely but not ideal, shipping stops, eventually a free hardware upgrade for those who've already gotten their cameras, and massive delay for everyone else.

2nd worst case, recall.

Worst case, they decide to ignore the problem.

https://vimeo.com/73037044#

This camera is pretty amazing in low light, but this absolutely shows how the white orb issue can really ruin footage. When the lanterns pass the lights at around 10 seconds is where my heart sinks

I think everyone now a just looking for it everywhere.... remember its a moving image NOT a still image. Most of the time it goes by without anyone noticing...

Sorry I have to disagree. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Ideally a firmware update.

I agree this would be the ideal solution; yet i fear this is not possible. If what we see here really is "sensor blooming" there is nothing that can be done in software alone, because it's a physical effect (charge spilling over from one photosite to the adjacent ones) that destroys image information before it can be processed.

If it is sensor-related, there's only one way to reduce / prevent the white blobs: reducing the actual amount of light hitting the sensor, e.g. closing the iris, using ND-Filters, reducing the shutter angle. Changing the ISO/ASA setting won't help, because the camera has a fixed ISO 800 rating, other settings don't change the signal but only the way it is interpreted. This means: to avoid the orbs, you have to expose to the extreme right, so that even the tiniest highlights don't "overclip". Ouch.

Bytheway: Of course everyone can have their own opinion about the severity of this issue. Yet the video-tests from Slashcam.de show very clearly that the white orbs are not a problem you could only see when you know what to look for. The blinking highlights of the rotating fans in the second and third tests undoubtedly draw the viewers' attention to them! To me this might be a reason to send the camera back, even though i waited months for it!

the question is... if we want to do right by BMD and keep the camera to show loyalty to BMD while BMD figures a solution, will BMD then retort and do the right thing by us and replace the cameras that we got even though its sensor has problems or will they leave us to hang high and dry?

?

Oh boy...My pocket must be only days away from shipping and I don´t know what to do.
It should be my B-Cam/personal stuff cam next to my BMCC. Maybe I´s better go with a GH3 which costs more than the Pocket... (no I´m not interested in the stills function)

We are looking into this question. We are addressing this and will give you folks an update when we have more information.

I hope you don't consider this question rude or inappropriate but I have confirmation from several people (including myself) that when you first made this post, it read:

We realize that this is an issue and take these questions seriously. We are addressing this and will give you folks an update when we have more information.

Why did you change the "recognition of the issue" part? Is this something a lawyer or your boss made you do or did you decide to take the more noncommittal semantics on your own?

+1 Marc

Apparently BMD has an Issue with the word ISSUE, i kept referring to some of the issues (in my opinion) that the blackmagic pocket camera has and they gave me a Warning, locked a thread i opened and told me i am insulting numerous people. instead of spending to much time on nonsense they should spend some time on fixing the camera and other deficiencies that it has.

Oh boy...My pocket must be only days away from shipping and I don´t know what to do.
It should be my B-Cam/personal stuff cam next to my BMCC. Maybe I´s better go with a GH3 which costs more than the Pocket... (no I´m not interested in the stills function)

Felix, I am also considering getting the GH3 it seems to risky to get this camera at the moment, besides the blooming sensor issues, i believe there is another issue called the back dot issue when pointing towards the sun. thats to many use of the word issues in one sentence.

since I am on the fence in regards to hold on to the camera, I just spoke with B and H photo about their return policy which is: 30 days from the day they shipped the camera open box or closed.
I guess that gives me 30 days to wait for an official response to this issue from BMD.

lets see.

Ideally a firmware update.

Not possible, Fuji X10 had the same issue only solution was to recall the cameras and modify the sensor
more info here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/04/26 ... orb-update

Apparently BMD has an Issue with the word ISSUE, i kept referring to some of the issues (in my opinion) that the blackmagic pocket camera has and they gave me a Warning, locked a thread i opened and told me i am insulting numerous people. instead of spending to much time on nonsense they should spend some time on fixing the camera and other deficiencies that it has.

I'm certain that BMD will take full ownership of any issue once their engineers determine if there is and to what extent it exists. And how it needs to be addressed. They have, on their own time frame, done just that in the past.

I'm certain that BMD will take full ownership of any issue once their engineers determine if there is and to what extent it exists. And how it needs to be addressed. They have, on their own time frame, done just that in the past.

We all like to think that

With all due respect to the people in this forum...

I have a BMPCC in my possession. I'm following this thread in anticipation of an answer from BMD regarding this issue. Unless you have footage to show, I personally would rather not follow the back and forth about what BMD may, or may not do.

Over the weekend, I plan to shoot some footage. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

Let's try to presume BMD innocent until proven guilty.

Let's try to presume BMD innocent until proven guilty.

That's a good premise, for sure. But the footage we've seen so far strongly suggest that there _is_ a blooming problem. Proof can only come from you who already have the camera, i'm rather curious about your findings. It would really help to do a dedicated blooming test, e.g. filming a (clear) tungsten bulb in front of a grays chart or similar at different exposure settings (iris and/or shutter angle, always ISO 800), to see when clipping starts, and how much (if any) headroom there is until the blooming begins.

I intend to keep up my preorder, partly because i've faith in BMD, partly to evaluate the problem myself before i decide if i can live / work with it.

Fixing the white orb thing should be a more important priority than implementing RAW in my opinion. I'd rather shoot ProRes without the orb than RAW and ProRes with it.

Fixing the white orb thing should be a more important priority than implementing RAW in my opinion. I'd rather shoot ProRes without the orb than RAW and ProRes with it.

I second that!

Recording raw can be implemented in software, while the blooming likely needs changes in hardware and if so must be done at the factory. Thus it is mandatory to adress the latter with high priority, before more of the cameras might have to be recalled!

These kind of problems are exactly the reason why it is wise to start shipping only small numbers of devices and wait for the first gamma testers' (= end users) experiences before launching larger volume production.

I hope we are not witnesses to history repeating...

Fixing the white orb thing should be a more important priority than implementing RAW in my opinion. I'd rather shoot ProRes without the orb than RAW and ProRes with it.

-1

Lately I've been feeling better that my order was made on the 28th. BMD will have more time to work things out.

well,
My pocket just shipped.
T minus 30 days and counting.

Min arrives tomorrow in Auckland - I'll do some tests early next week and post some footage / findings.

But the footage we've seen so far strongly suggest that there _is_ a blooming problem. Proof can only come from you who already have the camera, i'm rather curious about your findings.

My comment regarding "presume innocent" was about BMD doing something about it, not whether a problem exists. Clearly there is a problem. I expect to use the camera in controlled situations until it is fixed.

However, as some others have suggested, if no solutions are presented within 30 days from BMD, mine could go back. Or, maybe on Ebay. I'm getting quite the laugh reading our discussion while seeing a bid for $1500 on Ebay for one. I wonder if the guy with that bid is reading this forum and sweating bullets.

Why did Frank guy say he might know what the problem is and then went silent, it's not a competition he needs to say it so others can look into it. Everyone knows It would only be speculation, lets hear it so it can be looked at by the community.....

Why did Frank guy say he might know what the problem is and then went silent, it's not a competition he needs to say it so others can look into it. Everyone knows It would only be speculation, lets hear it so it can be looked at by the community.....

He doesn't need to say anything. Frank doesn't have to answer to you or anyone else. He's been more than helpful which is more than anyone can say about you.

I've just watched part 2 of Philip Bloom's review:



I was, of course, looking for the dreaded blooming, but not really seeing anything that worried me.

When he points the camera at the sun through the ferris wheel, you can see the 'black spot' thing, but not blooming around the spokes of the wheel.

Anyone else spot examples of blooming in that video?

Why did Frank guy say he might know what the problem is and then went silent,.

Cause I don't know it.

I need unmolested material straight from the card, with the white blobs on it, so I can look into it, before I can say anything - more unfounded speculation doesn't help anybody.

Since I don't have a Pocket yet, I mailed several folks, if I can have their footage, but no luck yet.

I'm shooting on the set for the next 5 days anyway, so if I don't get any footage till tonight, I have no chance to look into it till next week.

I've just watched part 2 of Philip Bloom's review:



I was, of course, looking for the dreaded blooming, but not really seeing anything that worried me.

When he points the camera at the sun through the ferris wheel, you can see the 'black spot' thing, but not blooming around the spokes of the wheel.

Anyone else spot examples of blooming in that video?

go to page one of this thread you can also spot the blooming issue there (its called the pinocchio effect), on his website Mr. Bloom does acknowledge the blooming issue as well.

He doesn't need to say anything. Frank doesn't have to answer to you or anyone else. He's been more than helpful which is more than anyone can say about you.

Grow up, Jimmy is making a valid point if anyone has claimed they know what the problem is and then choke well ...
CheesyCam, Philip Bloom have independently verified the issue not need to get historical mate.

For the record:

I never have "claimed to know what the problem is" - all I said was I have an idea and need footage to look into it.

I've just watched part 2 of Philip Bloom's review:



I was, of course, looking for the dreaded blooming, but not really seeing anything that worried me.

When he points the camera at the sun through the ferris wheel, you can see the 'black spot' thing, but not blooming around the spokes of the wheel.

Anyone else spot examples of blooming in that video?

Take a look at the end of review part 2 at 18:14 or so and there's a big highlight on the top of the building outside the London Eye pod. As the actress/model moves across frame to the left the "bloom" eats into here nose and face. It's not very pretty, considering how nice the highlights look through the back of her hair on the other side.

I occassionally might have to shoot directly into lights with talent in front and this would look poor I think.

Does anybody know what type of fix they used on the X10 sensor to correct the problem? Is it a completely different sensor or just a modification to the original sensor?

I'm looking around and I can't find any info.

Does anybody know what type of fix they used on the X10 sensor to correct the problem? Is it a completely different sensor or just a modification to the original sensor?

I'm looking around and I can't find any info.

I'm not sure but it may not be all that useful info to have. Even assuming the cause of the issue is the same (remember a symptom may be casued by many things) differences in the sensor may lead to a different solution being used. The BMCC doesnt seem prone to this which is intersting as the BMPCC is suposed to use a very similar sensor (possible even a windowed version of the BMCC sensor) which make it being a firmware issue slightly more likely.

Does anybody know what type of fix they used on the X10 sensor to correct the problem? Is it a completely different sensor or just a modification to the original sensor?

I'm looking around and I can't find any info.

Fuji X10 had the same issue only solution was to recall the cameras and modify the sensor
more info here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/04/26 ... orb-update

there is a rumour going around that there are still Fuji camera's around with blooming sensor issue not sure why.

I think we need to wait for BMD to respond on this before we rush off trying to both diagnose and fix whatever is causing this.

I don't think it's right to describe it as blooming either or orbs. To me this is a problem of hard clipping. Blooming might describe a kind of flaring to me.

This seems to be a hard rolloff or hard clipping on near white or superwhite areas that have gone beyond clipping.

Demo footage has been out for quite some time, including my own and it's only just been noticed. So It's not always easy to pick up. Yes now we all know what to look for we're all "ahhh hahing" on hard clipping spots, but there's also a lot of misfires on things that to me look like normal clipping.

Calling it an "ORB" problem makes people think it's the same problem as with other sensors and therefore need the same kind of corrections. Unless any of you are sensor engineers and work for BMD, then we don't really know what's going here do we ? It might be the same. Or it might be something else.

I'm hopeful it can't be too difficult to address because it doesn't seem to exist on the bigger brother BMCC which has a sensor from the same sensor family.

jb

I think we need to wait for BMD to respond on this before we rush off trying to both diagnose and fix whatever is causing this.

I don't think it's right to describe it as blooming either or orbs. To me this is a problem of hard clipping. Blooming might describe a kind of flaring to me.

This seems to be a hard rolloff or hard clipping on near white or superwhite areas that have gone beyond clipping.

Demo footage has been out for quite some time, including my own and it's only just been noticed. So It's not always easy to pick up. Yes now we all know what to look for we're all "ahhh hahing" on hard clipping spots, but there's also a lot of misfires on things that to me look like normal clipping.

Calling it an "ORB" problem makes people think it's the same problem as with other sensors and therefore need the same kind of corrections. Unless any of you are sensor engineers and work for BMD, then we don't really know what's going here do we ? It might be the same. Or it might be something else.

I'm hopeful it can't be too difficult to address because it doesn't seem to exist on the bigger brother BMCC which has a sensor from the same sensor family.

jb

Nice to have you chime in as always John, and for the most part I could not agree more.
And since "it doesn't seem to exist on the bigger brother BMCC" it makes a lot of sense that this should be an available fix that we can all look forward to, along with a few others maybe?

Cheers

On both cameraas the pixel pitch is the same 6.5 micron, so it's most likely cut from the same wafer. Blooming?
Not very likely.

I think we need to wait for BMD to respond on this before we rush off trying to both diagnose and fix whatever is causing this.

I don't think it's right to describe it as blooming either or orbs. To me this is a problem of hard clipping. Blooming might describe a kind of flaring to me.

This seems to be a hard rolloff or hard clipping on near white or superwhite areas that have gone beyond clipping.

Demo footage has been out for quite some time, including my own and it's only just been noticed. So It's not always easy to pick up. Yes now we all know what to look for we're all "ahhh hahing" on hard clipping spots, but there's also a lot of misfires on things that to me look like normal clipping.

Calling it an "ORB" problem makes people think it's the same problem as with other sensors and therefore need the same kind of corrections. Unless any of you are sensor engineers and work for BMD, then we don't really know what's going here do we ? It might be the same. Or it might be something else.

I'm hopeful it can't be too difficult to address because it doesn't seem to exist on the bigger brother BMCC which has a sensor from the same sensor family.

jb

Nice to have you chime in as always John, and for the most part I could not agree more.
And since "it doesn't seem to exist on the bigger brother BMCC" it makes a lot of sense that this should be an available fix that we can all look forward to, along with a few others maybe?

Cheers

We are looking into this question. We are addressing this and will give you folks an update when we have more information.

I hope you don't consider this question rude or inappropriate but I have confirmation from several people (including myself) that when you first made this post, it read:

We realize that this is an issue and take these questions seriously. We are addressing this and will give you folks an update when we have more information.

Why did you change the "recognition of the issue" part? Is this something a lawyer or your boss made you do or did you decide to take the more noncommittal semantics on your own?

+1 Marc

Apparently BMD has an Issue with the word ISSUE, i kept referring to some of the issues (in my opinion) that the blackmagic pocket camera has and they gave me a Warning, locked a thread i opened and told me i am insulting numerous people. instead of spending to much time on nonsense they should spend some time on fixing the camera and other deficiencies that it has.

Join the club, we are the "Special People", in fact when we stand up, BMD wants us to sit down!
When we insult the rude forum members, "We get the warning", but hey just remember...

We Are Special!

But in my opinion, Fix black spot issue is more important then this one, though it can be fix in computer, it is very waste of time if I have to shoot something long.

Taken today. Shot with a camera introduced in 2010 which software is currently at V8.

It's the Arri Alexa. I was shooting the sun out of a moving train.

JB

But in my opinion, Fix black spot issue is more important then this one, though it can be fix in computer, it is very waste of time if I have to shoot something long.

Taken today. Shot with a camera introduced in 2010 which software is currently at V8.

It's the Arri Alexa. I was shooting the sun out of a moving train.

JB

Hey John,
I'm not sure that even looks like "Blooming" or even close to the same bad effect people are complaining about? it looks more like a "Black Spot" ever small as it is, but the "Bloom" looks nothing like this in my opinion.
Anyway............................?