Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

Thanks, Uli. I figured that they were something to do with their Apple origin. As you've noted, they're tiny.

IIRC, there's software which can automatically get rid of them on a PC. OTOH, they don't hurt.

I just sort the directory by file size and they all pop to the top. Select and delete. Done.

Getting an iPhone 15 Pro Max in a couple of weeks. Wondering if the app can access the longest iPhone 15 Pro Max night mode shutter speed of thirty seconds, or not. Would like an even longer shutter speed (or even a bulb setting) but not likely, am I right? Just joined the forum so sorry if this topic has been addressed. Couldn't find it on a search.

Anybody around here got the full version of Cinema P3 and compared it?

Anybody around here got the full version of Cinema P3 and compared it?

Yes. Ask away.

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun every day

Thank you for responding. I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss a competing product, so if anybody objects, we can move it to a new thread. After all, I appreciate the BM app very much and for all those used to a BM camera, you'll feel right at home with it.

I wasn't really aware of the CinemaP3 app until a very experienced DoP friend of mine told me about it. He used it recently on a professional shoot with the iPhone when doing some shots in public transport and liked it better than BM's.

So, being a one-time purchase instead of a subscription, I bought it right away after some initial testing. The GUI is quite different and sometimes you may need a few more clicks, or rather touches, until you get what you want. But it's very well thought out and feels intuitive too after getting the hang of it.

The developer is very responsive. What I'm currently wishing from him is a possibility for not only setting an upper limit of ISO, which already exists, but a lower one too. Why? See Gerald Undone's test:

.
This would make it easier to control ISO with a variable ND, or even better, quickly holding fixed ones to the lenses before deciding which to screw on.

The only bug I observed that sometimes the shutter speed changes slightly when you are on manual exposure and have the shutter angle set to 180 degrees. But I'm not sure this is a quirk caused by how Apple is controlling exposure or really a bug in the software. After all, I can't get some shutter values in BM's app either, like 45 degrees (for bracketing tests).

So, what are your observations?

I wasn't really aware of the CinemaP3 app until a very experienced DoP friend of mine told me about it. He used it recently on a professional shoot with the iPhone when doing some shots in public transport and liked it better than BM's.

Does the Cinema P3 support syncing to Tentacle TC over Bluetooth?

Thank you for responding. I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss a competing product, so if anybody objects, we can move it to a new thread. After all, I appreciate the BM app very much and for all those used to a BM camera, you'll feel right at home with it.

I wasn't really aware of the CinemaP3 app until a very experienced DoP friend of mine told me about it. He used it recently on a professional shoot with the iPhone when doing some shots in public transport and liked it better than BM's.

So, being a one-time purchase instead of a subscription, I bought it right away after some initial testing. The GUI is quite different and sometimes you may need a few more clicks, or rather touches, until you get what you want. But it's very well thought out and feels intuitive too after getting the hang of it.

The developer is very responsive. What I'm currently wishing from him is a possibility for not only setting an upper limit of ISO, which already exists, but a lower one too. Why? See Gerald Undone's test:

.
This would make it easier to control ISO with a variable ND, or even better, quickly holding fixed ones to the lenses before deciding which to screw on.

The only bug I observed that sometimes the shutter speed changes slightly when you are on manual exposure and have the shutter angle set to 180 degrees. But I'm not sure this is a quirk caused by how Apple is controlling exposure or really a bug in the software. After all, I can't get some shutter values in BM's app either, like 45 degrees (for bracketing tests).

So, what are your observations?

Hi Uli

I have observed the same problem with 1/50s and 180 degree, but only when ISO limit has been reached. In that case, I got 1/40s shutter (seen in metadata), although display showed 1/50s 180 degrees. I pointed at slightly better lights, and “problem gone” (this evening actually). I think it is an “Apple override” of “impossible settings” in my case.

Also another case, where I specifically chose 1000ISO, 2000ISO and 3999ISO (exact ISO very fiddly, linear scale not the easiest to use) - via presets - in a low light situation. Metadata content were as expected, but when I compared the results, they were visibly near identical (handheld) and the RGB Parades were also similar.

I guess Apple’s processing made an override in that situation. T’was impossible to complain

My usual Cinema P3 contact got the details (mediainfo, settings, RGB Parade and frame images). In comparison BMC App support is more like the proverbial “brick wall”; for all intents and purposes non existing. Not the normal App support approach, where feed-back is usually prompt or within a few days for most App developers.

Example: When Cinema P3 introduced Apple Log support, they initially had an obscure side effect in some situations. Happens. Sent them a mail reporting the details of and how to reproduce the bug. Got a mail later the same day, that they could reproduce it, and a new version would be uploaded to Apple as soon as possible. A day or two later, I had the new version installed. Can’t complain about that.

In a comparable available light situation, Apples App recently gave an unexpected well balanced image (with AF/AE lock on interesting part). I’m not sure, but I suspect Apples “system” takes over. In most cases with HDR 2020 HLG, their approach - “(AI based ?) content massage” - is actually rather good, saving a lot of work in post. Kind of a (mostly) benevolent big brother “let me take over, and show you how it’s done” (in this case really welcomed). There were still slight noise present in deep shadows (and completely dark “sky”), but well controlled with well preserved details and nigh to no blown highlights.

I'm not sure, that Log is seen as completely "hands off" by Apple (worth a try, in tricky cases, otherwise... Apple mostly does well).

Major differences between Cinema P3 and Blackmagic Camera
(as far as I remember)

No “running” focus peaking (only in manual focus) in Cinema P3. Their contact states, that it is an attempt to conserve power (I did not agree and suggested, that they made use of "constantly on" selectable (and "presettable"). General view: I don’t need a “power nanny”, but “focus peaking”

The preset system is far better in Cinema P3 than BMC.

Better “general options” accessibility in some cases. YMMV.

Cinema P3 audio: No 32-bit float. No 4CH option. Fixed to whatever microphone interface is available, meaning 16-bit (haven’t found a way around that to get I.e. 24-bit from known 24-bir sources with locked 24-bit delivery).

Image quality is similar. Main options too. Guess Apple hardware is the deciding factor. Similar results with similar settings.

Focusing is a bit more flexible on Cinema P3 (personal view).

User interface approach very different (BMC often unreadable in comparison). Otherwise layout a matter of personal taste in most cases. I prefer Cinema P3 any day.

Differences otherwise mostly in tiny details (may be important for some - specialized? - use cases). Same scene (tripod mount) delivers similar RGB Parade with same settings - so far.

Cinema P3 offers extra choices and combinations in addition to the Log and HDR (Apple nomenclature). The App contains download links to the various versions of LUT’s required (really useful approach), making experimentation a royal treat.

Dabbled a bit in Apple Log - not my thing. At all (I think you’ve guessed that by now). Various alternatives (LUT’s) only short tests. Not really needed or of value for my personal use. YMMV.

My use is mostly UHD 25 fps ProRES 422HQ (2020 HLG). Internally up to ~20 min (~120GB) with periodic very fast sync add (FileBrowser Professional script - pay once solution) to external SSD and iPhone 15 Pro power top-off. In some walkabout cases, I use constant power from my powerbank powered hub with internal 2TB SSD (placed in a small shoulder bag). Works like a treat! Haven't found any "affordable real camera", that allows same approach. How daft is that!

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun every day

Does the Cinema P3 support syncing to Tentacle TC over Bluetooth?

I'm not sure. It has a setting called "Timecode track", but I have no Tentacle here to try. Check with the developer, he's quite responsive.

Thanks for such a detailed answer, Kurt.

I have observed the same problem with 1/50s and 180 degree, but only when ISO limit has been reached. In that case, I got 1/40s shutter (seen in metadata), although display showed 1/50s 180 degrees. I pointed at slightly better lights, and “problem gone” (this evening actually). I think it is an “Apple override” of “impossible settings” in my case.

It's already evening here and I couldn't reproduce that. I'll keep waiting for a reproducible sequence of operations.

My usual Cinema P3 contact got the details (mediainfo, settings, RGB Parade and frame images). In comparison BMC App support is more like the proverbial “brick wall”; for all intents and purposes non existing. Not the normal App support approach, where feed-back is usually prompt or within a few days for most App developers.

True, his support is excellent.

In a comparable available light situation, Apples App recently gave an unexpected well balanced image (with AF/AE lock on interesting part). I’m not sure, but I suspect Apples “system” takes over. In most cases with HDR 2020 HLG, their approach - “(AI based ?) content massage” - is actually rather good, saving a lot of work in post. Kind of a (mostly) benevolent big brother “let me take over, and show you how it’s done” (in this case really welcomed). There were still slight noise present in deep shadows (and completely dark “sky”), but well controlled with well preserved details and nigh to no blown highlights.

I'm not sure, that Log is seen as completely "hands off" by Apple (worth a try, in tricky cases, otherwise... Apple mostly does well).

Yes, they do, but there's two things I want off: artificial sharpening and local tone mapping.

Since CinemaP3 has a setting for global tone mapping, did you try compare that?

Major differences between Cinema P3 and Blackmagic Camera
(as far as I remember)

No “running” focus peaking (only in manual focus) in Cinema P3. Their contact states, that it is an attempt to conserve power (I did not agree and suggested, that they made use of "constantly on" selectable (and "presettable"). General view: I don’t need a “power nanny”, but “focus peaking”

Well, when I observed some overheating issues, Peter from BM gave me the advice to swipe off all overlays, which cured that. So, maybe it's not so much about power, but heat?

The preset system is far better in Cinema P3 than BMC.

Absolutely!

Cinema P3 audio: No 32-bit float. No 4CH option. Fixed to whatever microphone interface is available, meaning 16-bit (haven’t found a way around that to get I.e. 24-bit from known 24-bit sources with locked 24-bit delivery).

Well, for high-end audio I'd use external recorders anyway (and a person to operate them).
With the minimal VFR I observed syncing is not such an issue.

Focusing is a bit more flexible on Cinema P3 (personal view).

Second that! You even have a focus pulling system (and I don't mean artificial bokeh, but the 120mm).

Cinema P3 offers extra choices and combinations in addition to the Log and HDR (Apple nomenclature). The App contains download links to the various versions of LUT’s required (really useful approach), making experimentation a royal treat.

Yep, that's a very helpful feature.

Internally up to ~20 min (~120GB) with periodic very fast sync add (FileBrowser Professional script - pay once solution) to external SSD and iPhone 15 Pro power top-off.

Is that an app that automatically downloads clips to a SSD once connected and then deletes the files on the phone?

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun every day

Same to you!

P.S. That guy really knows what he's doing, here is an older article by him: https://blackburnapps.medium.com/iphone ... c759fa6d61
I wonder why the app is not more popular.

Thanks for such a detailed answer, Kurt.

I have observed the same problem with 1/50s and 180 degree, but only when ISO limit has been reached. In that case, I got 1/40s shutter (seen in metadata), although display showed 1/50s 180 degrees. I pointed at slightly better lights, and “problem gone” (this evening actually). I think it is an “Apple override” of “impossible settings” in my case.

It's already evening here and I couldn't reproduce that. I'll keep waiting for a reproducible sequence of operations.

I'll try. You know how it is. You get an idea, iPhone at hand (not quite the same going to the next room and unpacking your camera), trying a few settings in a special environment, and... hmmm... wonder, wonder, aahaaah... that's how it seems to work. Mostly (?)

I'll try to reproduce settings (loot's) and the experiment (problem is, "environment" and "Scenery" not easily ported to your location

IF I discover a way to reproduce, you'll hear from me.

My usual Cinema P3 contact got the details (mediainfo, settings, RGB Parade and frame images). In comparison BMC App support is more like the proverbial “brick wall”; for all intents and purposes non existing. Not the normal App support approach, where feed-back is usually prompt or within a few days for most App developers.

True, his support is excellent.

In a comparable available light situation, Apples App recently gave an unexpected well balanced image (with AF/AE lock on interesting part). I’m not sure, but I suspect Apples “system” takes over. In most cases with HDR 2020 HLG, their approach - “(AI based ?) content massage” - is actually rather good, saving a lot of work in post. Kind of a (mostly) benevolent big brother “let me take over, and show you how it’s done” (in this case really welcomed). There were still slight noise present in deep shadows (and completely dark “sky”), but well controlled with well preserved details and nigh to no blown highlights.

I'm not sure, that Log is seen as completely "hands off" by Apple (worth a try, in tricky cases, otherwise... Apple mostly does well).

Yes, they do, but there's two things I want off: artificial sharpening and local tone mapping.

Since CinemaP3 has a setting for global tone mapping, did you try compare that?

Haven't tried that yet. The App has a very comprehensive set of options. Will happen. Only question is when (you know how it is

Major differences between Cinema P3 and Blackmagic Camera
(as far as I remember)

No “running” focus peaking (only in manual focus) in Cinema P3. Their contact states, that it is an attempt to conserve power (I did not agree and suggested, that they made use of "constantly on" selectable (and "presettable"). General view: I don’t need a “power nanny”, but “focus peaking”

Well, when I observed some overheating issues, Peter from BM gave me the advice to swipe off all overlays, which cured that. So, maybe it's not so much about power, but heat?

I haven't run into any overheating yet, but at latitude 55.4 degrees north, it's not the most obvious "side effect". That's why I requested a selectable option.

When I'm visiting Singapore in the new year, or run into one of next years "Ola de Calor" in Spain (they had four in 2023). I ran into the third, with "impressive" levels of "some" over 40C in Córdoba old inner city "alleyways" and "only" one day at peak 40C in Madrid. In the fourth wave Bilbao in the farthest north of Spain had near 45C warnings issued, on the day I left the country for home.

If that repeats itself in 2024, I'll most probably have to be more "relaxed" regarding my preferences

The preset system is far better in Cinema P3 than BMC.

Absolutely!

Cinema P3 audio: No 32-bit float. No 4CH option. Fixed to whatever microphone interface is available, meaning 16-bit (haven’t found a way around that to get I.e. 24-bit from known 24-bit sources with locked 24-bit delivery).

Well, for high-end audio I'd use external recorders anyway (and a person to operate them).
With the minimal VFR I observed syncing is not such an issue.

I do too, but I've discovered, that when I use my Shure M-S MV88+ microphone mounted on the iPhone grabber, BMC let's me choose between 16-bit and 32-bot float (no 24-bit option), and the output is actually 32-bit float, even when the Shure is specifically locked at 24-bit ("raw M-S" output). I guess it's simple to convert 24-bit PCM to 32-bit float on the fly, and 32-bit float (pseudo in this case) is preferable to 16-bit PCM any day.

I'm not hauling along my Sennheiser shotgun or Røde matched pairs of condenser microphones requiring XLR and Zoom F3 (or F6) interface every day. Seldom on travels, where the Shure digital interface is simpler to handle. Analog 3.5mm TRS (or TRRS) microphone cables have drawbacks in a lot of situations, compared to balanced XLR in my view. YMMV.

Focusing is a bit more flexible on Cinema P3 (personal view).

Second that! You even have a focus pulling system (and I don't mean artificial bokeh, but the 120mm).

I know. Have only had time to test briefly. I seldom use focus pulling.

I've invested more time in testing the limits on Apples "cinematic" mode (horrible marketing term).

I use (Pro)RAW for photos and ProRES RAW for video in order to get the best "insurance" for handling hiccups in post (compared to jpg or h264/h265 for example).

On a real camera, I can select focus and low DOF easily. The problem is, that if I regret in post in a once in a lifetime situation... tough luck! It's kind of "jpg focusing" (baked into the source material).

If I use the - ahem - "cinematic mode" - I get (to some extend) the "RAW focusing" option, where I can position and move any focus to anywhere (as a kind of "Ken Burns Focus move") as well as focus depth. It works in FCPX only for the time being, but it actually works!

If you know, what you're doing, and adjust (slightly) to your intended use, it's a nice "extra" to have at hand, when you run into situations, that you can probably never again experience or revisit. There's no doubt in my mind, that this will become "trend changing", if Apple sees fit to extend the current "baby steps" in FCPX (still very usable since YOU are in full control) with AI enhanced delivery assistance - even in post view.

I have lots of examples, where the new "RAW focus" option would be welcome - especially one from 2007 in the Shanghai Historical Museum at the ground level of the Pearl Tower on the Pudong side of the river, just opposite the Bund. And hundreds of situations since.

Cinema P3 offers extra choices and combinations in addition to the Log and HDR (Apple nomenclature). The App contains download links to the various versions of LUT’s required (really useful approach), making experimentation a royal treat.

Yep, that's a very helpful feature.

Internally up to ~20 min (~120GB) with periodic very fast sync add (FileBrowser Professional script - pay once solution) to external SSD and iPhone 15 Pro power top-off.

Is that an app that automatically downloads clips to a SSD once connected and then deletes the files on the phone?

I haven't looked at auto deletion yet, so I can't comment if it's at all possible.

I have a script, that handles added or modified Apple videos, Cinema P3 videos and Blackmagic videos in one swoop, and until now, that seems to work as intended.

Before I stop doing manual deletions, I need to do a host of tests looking into, what happens, if cable - somehow - gets removed or damaged or power vanishes from target etc. Since there is no "verify after copy" and "safe copy" (instead of direct overwrite, if sizes or timestamp differ), I'm not prone to forego "manual intervention" on the deletion front.

There is work in progress on a special version of a Mac based Backup/Sync tool for - probably - tailored use for cases like this. Whether it will be released and when, is completely unknown yet.

Fingers crossed

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun every day

Same to you!

P.S. That guy really knows what he's doing, here is an older article by him: https://blackburnapps.medium.com/iphone ... c759fa6d61
I wonder why the app is not more popular.

Yup!

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun every day (repeats doesn't hurt

Does the Cinema P3 app restrict P3 colour space to 8bit or does it support capture recording in P3 10bit? I ask because one of the features quoted when I first loaded the app was P3 8bit without mention of P3 10bit.

Timecode Support From the P3 website:

“Time Code Track can be used to save a time code track alongside the recorded video. The 32-bit option should be selected if the editing software is not compatible with the 64-bit option. e.g. DaVinci Resolve works best with the 32-bit option.”

That sounds like an audio track of Timecode from the phone’s TOD rather than metadata on the video track after syncing to a Timecode generator such as the Tentacle Sync.

A lot of questions appear to be related to items only available in the Cinema P3 Pro app so anyone wanting to evaluate it properly can use the 7-day free trial at a time when they have a few days to devote to the app. Looks worth the effort so thanks to those who have already upgraded to the Pro version.

For users without worldwide support sources such as this forum, the free fully-featured Blackmagic Cam app is a winner at first glance.

Timecode Support From the P3 website:

“Time Code Track can be used to save a time code track alongside the recorded video. The 32-bit option should be selected if the editing software is not compatible with the 64-bit option. e.g. DaVinci Resolve works best with the 32-bit option.”

That sounds like an audio track of Timecode from the phone’s TOD rather than metadata on the video track after syncing to a Timecode generator such as the Tentacle Sync.

A lot of questions appear to be related to items only available in the Cinema P3 Pro app so anyone wanting to evaluate it properly can use the 7-day free trial at a time when they have a few days to devote to the app. Looks worth the effort so thanks to those who have already upgraded to the Pro version.

For users without worldwide support sources such as this forum, the free fully-featured Blackmagic Cam app is a winner at first glance.

Both Black Magic App and Cinema P3 App deliver Timecode in a separate track, that Quicktime recognizes as a separate TimeCode track in both cases.

Video as Track ID 2, Audio as Track ID 1 and TimeCode as Track ID 3 for Cinema P3, and Video as Track ID 1, Audio as Track ID 2 and TimeCode as Track ID 3 for Blackmagic Camera. Track ID 3 is in both cases specifically called TimeCode (or whatever term Is used in your default user/display language).

Maybe Blackmagic could clarify what the track content actually is.

Regards

Does the Cinema P3 app restrict P3 colour space to 8bit or does it support capture recording in P3 10bit? I ask because one of the features quoted when I first loaded the app was P3 8bit without mention of P3 10bit.

It's still 8 bit only. It seems to have been a stopgap solution before the iPhone offered HDR or log.

Timecode Support From the P3 website:

“Time Code Track can be used to save a time code track alongside the recorded video. The 32-bit option should be selected if the editing software is not compatible with the 64-bit option. e.g. DaVinci Resolve works best with the 32-bit option.”

That sounds like an audio track of Timecode from the phone’s TOD rather than metadata on the video track after syncing to a Timecode generator such as the Tentacle Sync.

A lot of questions appear to be related to items only available in the Cinema P3 Pro app so anyone wanting to evaluate it properly can use the 7-day free trial at a time when they have a few days to devote to the app. Looks worth the effort so thanks to those who have already upgraded to the Pro version.

For users without worldwide support sources such as this forum, the free fully-featured Blackmagic Cam app is a winner at first glance.

Addendum to previous note on timecode embedded into a MOV file

First observation is, that the MOV file documentation defines, how timecodes can be produced and are stored, in order for "players" or "editors" to interpret the content correctly. The originating device for the timecode need not have any resemblance to the stored format. Any "translation" required is handled in the recording device, producing MOV-file conforming writes of all ingoing ingredients.

Otherwise (if some weird audio content based on what interpreted how was included in the original file saved, maybe, 8-9-10 years ago), the reader application would have to know, what kind of hardware was used, in what setting, possibly even the mode selected at recording time (gear maybe not even exist anywhere anymore, the company gone bust years ago, and documentation somehow vanished in a fire). That would be "bonkers" in the long run.

Here's an example of the "creation of a time code track (29.97 fps):

https://developer.apple.com/documentati ... _fps_video

The full MOV file specs can be found here:

https://developer.apple.com/documentati ... ile-format

The history of Apples development of the format is found here in short form:

https://docs.fileformat.com/video/mov/

Hopes this may be of help. You don't have to be a programmer or technically inclined as such, to understand the concept of the approach. Skim the timecode creation example, and you'll quickly accept the argument, that usable timecodes are clearly defined (including variants, for instance based in frame rate) for inclusion in the recorded file.

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun each day
(several bits spread over the day is far better, but who am I to tell you how you organize your fun

I subscribed to Halide Mark II yesterday (https://halide.cam). They're doing something that I haven't seen before and that Blackmagic might consider for its camera app.

These are the options on Halide's support page (https://halide.cam/supportnew):

Halide Support.jpg (134.79 KiB) Viewed 1938207 times

I signed up for the "Learn Halide in 10 Days" e-mail course and received the first e-mail soon after. Part of the e-mail is shown in the screen capture below.

halide e-mail.jpg (120.51 KiB) Viewed 1938207 times

I think that this is smart customer engagement. The first e-mail connects me to the person behind Halide, Sebastiaan de With, and starts to introduce me to Halide's interface, and how the app works, in bite-sized chunks. I'm not left reading a manual or hunting around the internet. It's Halide telling subscribers that they know that subscribers don't have limitless time on their hands.

Very clever marketing and genuinely helpful to subscribers.

By the way, if anyone's interested a Halide subscription is 50% off today for Cyber Monday.

Using an older iPhone 11 Pro Max 512GB storage, shot several clips with BlackMagic Camera app. Had LUT on. Some clips came out as too reddish and too green while some clips had no images, i.e. black screen, just audio recorded. Help!

Question answered! My old iP11 Pro Max shot too reddish/too green video and sometimes totally black clips with audio.

Hello friends.
Does anyone know how to shoot log video with this app. There is a section in settings for LUT but even if you upload a LUT nothing happens except that a LUT icon appears in top left corner of the main screen but tapping it, nothing happens.
Thanks

Only with iPhone15 Pro & Pro Max.

Installed. Thanks, Rob. Halide looks to be an excellent addition to the native Apple app.

Installed. Thanks, Rob. Halide looks to be an excellent addition to the native Apple app.

I spent some time with the app today. Halide, like Blackmagic's Camera app, has a very good user interface. Blackmagic might find that some of the things that Halide does from the perspectives of interface and user engagement, inside and outside the app, are worth checking out.

Question answered! My old iP11 Pro Max shot too reddish/too green video and sometimes totally black clips with audio.

Hello friends.
Does anyone know how to shoot log video with this app. There is a section in settings for LUT but even if you upload a LUT nothing happens except that a LUT icon appears in top left corner of the main screen but tapping it, nothing happens.
Thanks

Only with iPhone15 Pro & Pro Max.

====================
Still learning myself but here's my experience so far. Shot a couple of clips: one with LUT turned on and one without on iP15 PM. AirDropped clips from 'Media' to Mac computer. One came out too reddish / too green. The other was normal. Tried applying Apple Log LUT to first one; result not good, still too reddish especially skin tone.

Don’t know if it’s asked already but what about the 48mm lens option?

Every value between 24mm and 77mm equivalent is digital zoom on the Pro.
On the Pro Max, it's everything between 24 and 120.
48mm would still be as good as the 13, 77 or 120, since those are all 12 mpx only.

Every value between 24mm and 77mm equivalent is digital zoom on the Pro.
On the Pro Max, it's everything between 24 and 120.
48mm would still be as good as the 13, 77 or 120, since those are all 12 mpx only.

The option would be great! Maybe with a hint or something.

CinemaP3 has a zoom slider.

CIneD has tested the lenses in iPhone 15 Pro (Max) with the help of Blackmagic Cinema App.

Interesting results. Have a look:

https://www.cined.com/iphone-15-pro-lab ... -latitude/

All the hoopla around the iPhone 15 Pro (Max) made me decide to make a "dirty little test" of, what people can actually see. There will of course be differences, but if YOU have to trust ONLY YOUR OWN EYES, what is actually visible?

This also goes to the heart of the question: "Is iPhone 15 Pro material usable in real productions"?

The following is a practical test about acuity - not art or technical process. Three codecs. Same camera. Same sensor. Camera mounted on tripod, and off we go... the rest is up to you. Do you dare...

I took my S5, mounted an Atomos Ninja V on the HDMI output, and recorded:

S5 Internal: h264 10bit 422 150 megabit/sec UHD 25fps 2020 HLG

Atomos 1 via HDMI: h265XQ 10bit 422 250 megabit/sec UHD 25 fps 2020 HLG

Atomos 2 via HDMI: ProRES 422HQ 10-bit 422 690 megabit/sec UHD 25 fps 2020 HLG

Theoretically, there could be an "iPhone 15 Pro ProRES 422HQ sample" too, but let's do this first; just to let me get the feel for it.

The important part was to see, if I could visually distinguish the quality of source media (involving same camera, same sensor, upsampled in camera from 6k to UHD format) if rendering these formats into my standard Compressor delivery format:

h265 10bit 422 (typically around) 23,5 (+/-) megabit/sec UHD 25 fps 2020 HLG

The aim was NOT to decide, what is sensible from an editing viewpoint.

I prefer the “massage-ability” og 5.9k 12-bit ProRES RAW from the same source camera/sensor, to allow “maximum heavy lifting”, where lights, action - in effect everything - is outside my control at recording time. It delivers some - often welcome - wiggle room in post, if things went a bit overboard on the capture side (which actually happens quite often, when ordinary mortals living their life in whatever surroundings, they choose).

The "experience" (jpg from HDR screen is "impossible"):

Example of what you will experience.

S5 clean HDMI.jpg (191.84 KiB) Viewed 1937677 times

The recording is 2 minutes in all, divided into two parts, each part one minute in size, exhibiting a left crop moving from full left to full width, and back again.

I have made things easier. A thin line on top of the screen, indicates format 1 (lower) and the part without a line in top, indicates format 2 (upper).

To make things “interesting”, I won’t tell you, what format is used where. You decide.

This is not about “art”, but about what is really visible, when material is rendered in a “decent” end user format. ONLY processing done is the “moving overlap”. Ingoing material is completely ungraded, unscaled even white balance is solely decided by the camera. Duration is modified to 1 minute for each sequence, and the result sent directly to Compressor in this case. The resulting file is uploaded to iCloud, and can be saved from there.

If you’re brave, why not tell us in a comment, what formats were “clearly, quite obvious” distinguishable:

First minute:
Format of video with line on top: h264, h265, ProRES
Format of video with no line on top: h264, h265, ProRES

Second minute:
Format of video with line on top: h264, h265, ProRES
Format of video with no line on top: h264, h265, ProRES

The line was added after some time as an aid - to me! Before the line was present, I was completely incapable of deciding, which source material was used by sight alone. So, I added the line. I’m still incapable of establishing any visibly certain difference (and I even know the underlying formats).

I may be blind, alas, why not take up the challenge, and respond with your take?

The rendered file can be downloaded here:

https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0c8S ... clean_HDMI

The hard test begins with moving the player up, so that the thin white line end up outside the screen. Do this first (as an extra hard test).

The file will be removed from dornload without warning after NewYear 2023/24.

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun every day

This also goes to the heart of the question: "Is iPhone 15 Pro material usable in real productions"?

We've been past that question about iPhones for some time. They're already being used in "real productions", and four weeks ago Apple presented its fall keynote shot with one. The CineD article itself refers to a "real production" shot with iPhones.

If you missed that, the keynote is readily available on the internet, and this is a short "behind the scenes": Note the "special thanks" to Blackmagic Design at the end.

This also goes to the heart of the question: "Is iPhone 15 Pro material usable in real productions"?

We've been past that question about iPhones for some time. They're already being used in "real productions", and less than a month ago Apple presented its fall event shot with one.

If you missed that, this is a short "behind the scenes":

I certainly didn’t miss that.

I’ve even used the iPhone intesively (mixed with output from the S5), since I received my iPhone 15 Pro on september 22, 2023 and decided to start this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=188914

I still use the gear presented, when using iPhone on walkabouts. In various combinations with new rigs or different cabling solutions.

Just to name a few key points.

I know, it’s certainly not your task to keep abreast with everything. There are lots of things, I don’t notice either

Regards and remember to have bit of fun ever day.

I appreciate a lot what Kurt is doing here, it rather relates to the folks who are too obsessed with numbers instead of making films.
I found the contributions from both of you helpful.

BTW, an iPhone 5S has been used by Park Chan-wook and Park Chan-kyong in 2011 for a short film called "Night Fishing" in English. It won the Golden Bear for shorts in that year at Berlinale. A real production, or not?

I found the contributions from both of you helpful.

He raised a question: "This also goes to the heart of the question: "Is iPhone 15 Pro material usable in real productions?"

I provided a brief answer, with a reference to a widely viewed example from only four weeks ago. I wasn't trying to contribute anything, let alone promote discussion about whether the phones and the Blackmagic app are toys. I do think that it would be kinda nice if this thread, which has gotten progressively off track in the last week, got back on track: "Blackmagic Camera App - General Discussion and Releases".

That's what I'm researching very carefully right now. I've already come to the conclusion, even if preliminary, that it is. Right now, I'm just testing the limits. Whatever a 'real' production may be

My research will be published in the next issue of Digital Production (Munich).

That's what I'm researching very carefully right now. I've already come to the conclusion, even if preliminary, that it is. Right now, I'm just testing the limits. Whatever a 'real' production may be

My research will be published in the next issue of Digital Production (Munich).

That's great. I don't doubt that defining what a "real production" is is an important subject for some people. Indeed it's important enough that it should have its own thread instead of being buried in a thread about the Blackmagic app and app releases, isn't it? The CineD article points out that answering the question involves considerations that go way beyond what a camera app does.

Hi,I’m using iPhone 15 Pro max.There are x0.5,x1.0,x2,x5 lenses in system camera.But in this app there’re no x2 lenses.I think this is important for iphone 15 pro max users.Because 5x lenses is too long for many situations,2x is important.

Hi,I’m using iPhone 15 Pro max.There are x0.5,x1.0,x2,x5 lenses in system camera.But in this app there’re no x2 lenses.I think this is important for iphone 15 pro max users.Because 5x lenses is too long for many situations,2x is important.

I agree. It'd be great if the BM Camera App offered easy access to some version of a lens in the 50-70 mm (equivalent) range on the iPhone 15 Pro Max.

I understand that the native (Apple) app does this by some kind of "digital zoom" of the main camera's output.

CIneD has tested the lenses in iPhone 15 Pro (Max) with the help of Blackmagic Cinema App:

https://www.cined.com/iphone-15-pro-lab ... -latitude/

Excellent, kfriis. Thanks for that.

Hi,I’m using iPhone 15 Pro max.There are x0.5,x1.0,x2,x5 lenses in system camera.But in this app there’re no x2 lenses.I think this is important for iphone 15 pro max users.Because 5x lenses is too long for many situations,2x is important.

I agree. It'd be great if the BM Camera App offered easy access to some version of a lens in the 50-70 mm (equivalent) range on the iPhone 15 Pro Max.

I understand that the native (Apple) app does this by some kind of "digital zoom" of the main camera's output.

Related...

One of the differences between the Pro and the Pro Max is that the Pro offers a 77mm tele and the Pro Max offers 120mm. There are a number of discussions on YouTube and elsewhere on the internet about the significance of this. Some suggest that people who want a mid-tele should buy the Pro. I'm actually thinking about exchanging my Pro Max for a Pro for this reason. However, tele preference isn't the only factor to consider. For example, it appears that the Pro has significantly shorter battery life.

It's quite possible that Blackmagic has already discussed this internally. In any event, it's unclear to me what the impact is on image quality if Blackmagic, via its app, "adds" 77mm to the Pro Max. Assuming that it can be done, would the Pro Max 77mm be inferior to the Pro 77mm, and if so by how much?

CIneD has tested the lenses in iPhone 15 Pro (Max) with the help of Blackmagic Cinema App:

https://www.cined.com/iphone-15-pro-lab ... -latitude/

Excellent, kfriis. Thanks for that.

Thank you. I think, that this kind of independent and trustworthy information helps in the long run, when decisions have to be taken. One way or the other. It's not the whole story, but a significant input.

I noted Nino Leitners wise words in the comment section:

"We should really only look at the results people are getting, not the tools they use. In the future, we will see incredibly talented young shooters that start out with phones, just like many of our readers started out with DSLR cameras and have become seasoned cinematographers over the last 10-15 years. It doesn’t matter as long as you get compelling visuals, ideally combined with an engaging story, and nobody will care if you shot it on an ALEXA, a RED, an iPhone or a cucumber."

Couldn't agree more.

Just this evening (After snow, After dark, Before dinner and brrrr... freezing outside) I had a moment to check, what the iPhone really was capable of, when pushed far beyond a normal use case - or was it?

I used Blackmagic Camera set to 25 fps, ProRES 422, UHD fully automatic, just as a "normal user" would tend to do. What would Apples "machinery" behind the Blackmagic Camera App produce?

Judge for yourself (beware: 564MByte):

https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/069p ... after_snow

It turned out, that it required max ISO of 5321 (surprise, surprise) and selected 1/25 sec shutter. Thoroughly surprised by the result. Yes, Apple uses heavy noise reduction. Yes, Apple manipulates this, that and the other. Still surprised, that this level of quality is actually possible to get willy-nilly with a smartphone of all things.

Click, keep steady, click stop, and Bobs your uncle.

It's certainly not perfect, but...

For ordinary users, lifting the iPhone out of the pocket, and just aiming - not even needing to holler "Action" - this kind of result is frankly stunning.

I cut out a sequence of 30 seconds duration, no sound, and rendered directly (no grading, no noise reduction, no nothing) into 150 megabit/sec h265 10-bit 4:2:2 UHD 2020 HLG. Watch on smartphone or modern, HDR capable notebook. Just as ordinary "folks"

Blackmagic Camera App delivered the flexible setup options, nice and usable interface, and converted my Shure raw M-S sound into 32-bit float (instead of being forced to 16-bit). Let's enjoy the flexibility bestowed on us "heathens" in a universe of "righteous videographers of the true faith"

My last comment on this topic.

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun every day.

Thanks for providing the article on CineD testing the iPhone 15 Pro Max. In a gentle defense of Apple’s choices that show a respectable dynamic range of 11-12 stops but a miserable latitude of 5-6 stops, the dynamic range might trump the reduced latitude as we really should expect to be able to cope with only 5 stops combined push/pull in our exposures as long as the shoot has control over the lighting. As we often say with regard to shooting the BMD cameras: Don’t starve the sensor, feed the sensor. We just can apply that planning to the iPhone shoots as well, we can expect good images.

As we often say with regard to shooting the BMD cameras: Don’t starve the sensor, feed the sensor.

So, expose to the right still applies? Expose as much as you can without clipping?

As we often say with regard to shooting the BMD cameras: Don’t starve the sensor, feed the sensor.

So, expose to the right still applies? Expose as much as you can without clipping?

Depends on the highlights, and how noisy your shadows are/will be.

Example: If your highlights are bright streetlamps at night, you'll probably run into "drowned shadows", if you follow the advice literally. In this example, it pays to let "some highlights" be blown, in order to minimize shadow noise.

Generally (sic!), here are no general rules, without exception.

So follow the rules, but adjusted for common sense.

Regards

Thanks for providing the article on CineD testing the iPhone 15 Pro Max. In a gentle defense of Apple’s choices that show a respectable dynamic range of 11-12 stops but a miserable latitude of 5-6 stops, the dynamic range might trump the reduced latitude as we really should expect to be able to cope with only 5 stops combined push/pull in our exposures as long as the shoot has control over the lighting. As we often say with regard to shooting the BMD cameras: Don’t starve the sensor, feed the sensor. We just can apply that planning to the iPhone shoots as well, we can expect good images.

I don't take Nino Leitner and Johnnie Behiri seriously enough to buy what they say at face value. They're social media "influencers". Before he bought CineD, Leitner worked for Videndum, formerly Vitek, selling tripods and fluid heads.

The paragraph below from their site says how they earn a living. It comes under the heading "Business Model & Ethics", a dead giveaway for what's coming. Basically, they sell advertising, get paid for "collaborations" and get "affiliate" kickbacks on sales of what they promote on their website and in their videos. Sound familiar? Of course, it comes with the standard YouTuber line, perversely called a "disclaimer", that being paid has no bearing whatever on their "reviews". I look forward to Pete Wells, the NY Times restaurant critic, explain that he's getting money from the restarant industry, but of course his reviews are objective. Why? Because he says so. Of course the NY Times, being a legitimate media organisation, would fire Wells on the spot if he was doing that:

Our business model is based on traffic, and we run carefully selected, relevant advertising, affiliated buy links concerning mentioned products, and collaborations with companies we trust and recommend. Thanks to our sponsors B&H, CVP and Fujiya Avic (in Japan)- who are leading camera equipment retailers – we are independent from manufacturers when compiling reviews. We will always share our honest, unbiased opinion on cameras and accessories – no holding back!

I don't imagine that Apple is playing along.

I do get a kick out of Johnnie Behiri's trade show performances. Do those come under "advertising" or "collaboration"? When it comes to the kind of analysis that we're talking about here, I'll wait until it's being generated by an organisation that's earned some credibility

Don't think that Apple doesn't touch the log recordings. Yes, there's no edge enhancement or tone mapping, as far as I can see. Thank you, Apple!

But they do something interesting. If your exposure times get shorter than about 1/4th of a frame, highlight extension is kicking in. At 25 fps and 180 degree shutter my waveform is strictly limited to 896. If exposed higher, highlights clip. When I go down to about 90 degrees, highlights extend beyond that and I gain about one stop. I can't observe a fixed switching point, it's softly kicking in.

This seems to be some double exposure and mixing of those in the upper range, just as they do for HDR photography. It's logical that this process needs some time and can't be done at 180 degree shutter. Which is a dilemma, since the cinematic illusion of motion works better at that value, but with shorter times we get more DR. Get an ND and try for yourself if you experience this EDR.

P.S. I tried to ask Gerald Undone and Patrick Tomasso if they used ND or Shutter when doing their Xyla test, but no answer yet. It might be flawed by that EDR function.

As we often say with regard to shooting the BMD cameras: Don’t starve the sensor, feed the sensor.

So, expose to the right still applies? Expose as much as you can without clipping?

Peter, I don’t intend to expose to the right; I try to keep most of my histogram close to the midpoint or lower, but occasionally, yes, highlights get close to the right end.

Apple's white paper shows that 18% grey sits exactly where it belongs.

And then, the CineD guys wrote: "With LOG, there is now the required consistency for a rigorous test."
I doubt that, see above. One still needs to observe carefully what happens in the highlights.

But at least they clearly document that they did their latitude tests by controlling the exposure.

Don't think that Apple doesn't touch the log recordings. Yes, there's no edge enhancement or tone mapping, as far as I can see. Thank you, Apple!

But they do something interesting. If your exposure times get shorter than about 1/4th of a frame, highlight extension is kicking in. At 25 fps and 180 degree shutter my waveform is strictly limited to 896. If exposed higher, highlights clip. When I go down to about 90 degrees, highlights extend beyond that and I gain about one stop. I can't observe a fixed switching point, it's softly kicking in.

This seems to be some double exposure and mixing of those in the upper range, just as they do for HDR photography. It's logical that this process needs some time and can't be done at 180 degree shutter. Which is a dilemma, since the cinematic illusion of motion works better at that value, but with shorter times we get more DR. Get an ND and try for yourself if you experience this EDR.

P.S. I tried to ask Gerald Undone and Patrick Tomasso if they used ND or Shutter when doing their Xyla test, but no answer yet. It might be flawed by that EDR function.

I'm not sure, an argument based on processing power is entirely correct in this case.

I wish, we would stop to refer to a “fictive rotating shutter” in this case (it’s akin to use a sensor “1:1.3 inch” spec based on a fraction of a diameter of a fictional cathode ray tube area

Let’s use real world data. At 25 fps per second, each frame has a max “time slot” of 40 ms. Period.

At 180 degrees, that leaves 20ms for processing. At 90 degrees 30 ms for processing, at 45 degrees 35 ms for processing. And so on with decreasing, less influential steps of increase.

ONLY a somewhat shaky, but still valid view, if processing - possibly in different, special units - in parallel to image collection is completely ruled out.

Otherwise, the maximum available processing time will be constant for each 25fps frame (40ms). Since 60 fps is allowed for 4k, I'd venture, that parallel processing (maybe even involving several processing units, some specialized, some working more or less parallel) only requires a maximum of 16 ms per frame or less. Any "management" overhead handled by - maybe - some of the "not-necessary" processing units on the chip.

What is changing markedly is “image collection” time, especially if some multi exposure approach is employed (fictional: “long exposure” base image plus a sequence of shorter “computationally biased views”, with a minimum usability duration).

At 180 degrees you have 20 ms to for “image collection” (all the time in the world, if not allowing up to max "360 degrees", 40 ms open shutter), at 90 degrees 10 ms and fast approaching 5 ms (45 degrees), where rolling shutter duration of 5ms may also influence a different “image collection” approach, making the increasingly shorter collection time for and number of each extra “computational biased views” less meaningful in the first place.

This shift from "highly computational, multi-image collection per frame", to a more traditional "single frame collection strategy" may (?) be, what you discovered. Who knows (but Apple)?

Only remaining question is how much computational woodoo is actually performed at 60 fps, where 180 degree leaves only ~8 ms for "image collection". Anything you do in (24 or) 25 fps at - ahem - "180 degrees" will probably leave more than amble time for both image collection and processing (even if not done in parallel).

Just speculation, mind you.

Regards and remember to have a bit of fun every day.

Of course, it’s speculation on my side as well, without anything mentioned in Apple’s white paper.
And you’re right about the use of absolute time for this subject. Until now I was only testing 25 fps, which matters most to me. But I’ll check what happens at 50, not expecting enough of a difference at 30. Would be helpful to have something slower, like 16. Nostalgia, I know

Remember you can set a shutter speed that corresponds to a 360 degree shutter angle in the Blackmagic Cam app. Difficult to know how Apple’s special sauce is applied for example when the frame rate is 30 fps and the shutter speed is 1/30”.

Remember you can set a shutter speed that corresponds to a 360 degree shutter angle in the Blackmagic Cam app. Difficult to know how Apple’s special sauce is applied for example when the frame rate is 30 fps and the shutter speed is 1/30”.

Angle is mostly reserved for actual film based recordings.

In all other cases, it only complicates things (but it keeps beginners at bay, which some old f*rts may need as a buffer to real life My personal view. YMMV.

Depending on App - and I'm not going into a naming game here - and App mode (manual, ISO priority, Shutter priority and angle not used as base unit), you can in fact use 1/25s in 25fps (and the setting will also be selected in most cases, if 25fps is set, and ISO reaches maximum allowed in auto).

The last case happened in the "After snow. After Dark" example, I linked to in a recent post.

In available (low) light scenarios it's "pure heaven" to get access to one more stop of light on the sensor (sometimes even lowering the ISO from - let's say 5321 - to 3000, 3600, 4000 or whatever on average, if any automation is involved).

By the way: Some Apps do NOT store the actual used ISO, shutter etc. if you select "Cinematic" stabilization mode. I have personally experienced examples, where the first two frames were in automatic (and those data stored in the file metadata), but after that the true settings requested are used (easy to test in manual mode, if you look for it).

Anyway, if anything but true manual mode is used in your video, the metadata entry has very little practical use for your footage, if anything affects exposure in the shoot.

Regards