Blackmagic Ursa Cine 12K LF

It seems the most modern lenses are trying for perfection with asymmetric designs that minimize weight and length. Character, other than perhaps occasionally using warmer glass versus neutral glass, as we know it isn’t in keeping with these optically correct lenses. When I say ‘correct’, I don’t mean it if their design results in onion bokeh, but the modern designs mean lenses that eliminate optical effects like chromatic aberration.

It seems the most modern lenses are trying for perfection with asymmetric designs that minimize weight and length. Character, other than perhaps occasionally using warmer glass versus neutral glass, as we know it isn’t in keeping with these optically correct lenses. When I say ‘correct’, I don’t mean it if their design results in onion bokeh, but the modern designs mean lenses that eliminate optical effects like chromatic aberration.

The character of this Minolta Rokkor 58mm is truly in the bokeh shape. This was at F2.8. The Sigma on the other hand was truly rounded bokeh due to 13 iris blades. That’s a reason I bought it because I wanted that more rounded bokeh. Yet, in this instance the rustic feel of the photo benefits from the more hexagonal shape of the bokeh.

Ultimately, we all try for perfection these days. Eliminating what we thought of as faults. However, those faults are what build the character.

Beyond all this I did heavy color correction on this image because the original scan was extremely orange. Why? Daylight balanced film and lights set to tungsten balance. I knew in advance I’d have to do corrections. Yet, a 33 Megapixel Scan into a TIFF gave me the most flexibility to adjust the image without degradation.

This proves how invaluable the 12K resolution and quality is for post production manipulation. That added flexibility gives you a lot of room for altering the image as needed.


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And the bokeh of the vintage lens indicates there’s no aspherical lens elements just like the original SLR Magic APO primes which use only spherical elements to correct chromatic aberration.

It's official; sold the URSA Mini Pro G2 today. End of an era. The URSA Cine 12K is officially my main camera. P6KPro will remain the supplementary B-Cam for now until there is a PYXIS 12K with internal ND... Unless I have reason to pull trigger on the PYXIS 12K and can live without internal ND.

Congrats on the end of an era. After we see footage specifically from the Pyxis 12K LF, admit it, resistance will be futile!

Internal ND is handy and I do run and gun but I find that I still use external NDs as an addition because the 2 stops increment of internal ND is hit and miss.

Internal ND is handy and I do run and gun but I find that I still use external NDs as an addition because the 2 stops increment of internal ND is hit and miss.

Oh I get it. And, when applicable a polarizer is a great tool as well. It’s simply convenient to have internal ND.

Something I have done is used the Polarizer to cut reflections while using an NDIR 0.3 in combination with the internal ND 1.8.


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Internal ND is handy and I do run and gun but I find that I still use external NDs as an addition because the 2 stops increment of internal ND is hit and miss.

Oh I get it. And, when applicable a polarizer is a great tool as well. It’s simply convenient to have internal ND.

Something I have done is used the Polarizer to cut reflections while using an NDIR 0.3 in combination with the internal ND 1.8.


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Or Use SLR Magic VND that has polarizer control

With the Blackmagic power supply currently on backorder, would either of these power supplies for Alexa cameras allow full functionality of the Cine 12K? (can't post links; you can find these on B&H): MID49 24V Mains Power Supply with 8-Pin LEMO Connector or Wooden Camera 24V Power Supply for ALEXA Mini. I’m confused by the 250W spec of the Blackmagic power supply and whether or not it’s necessary.

Question for all of you 12k cine users: what type of PC or Mac are you guys using to playback 8k+ Braw files in Resolve? I just upgraded my PCs graphics card to a 4090 Founders Edition and it’s still lagging a bit around 14-16 fps on playback. I’m wondering if i should have sprung for a 5090.

Btw I’m on the latest firmware of Resolve 19.

Question for all of you 12k cine users: what type of PC or Mac are you guys using to playback 8k+ Braw files in Resolve? I just upgraded my PCs graphics card to a 4090 Founders Edition and it’s still lagging a bit around 14-16 fps on playback. I’m wondering if i should have sprung for a 5090.

Btw I’m on the latest firmware of Resolve 19.

I find the real key is the drive you're playing to footage off of. For example I get far better playback from an SSD than a spinning disk drive. So my 2020 iMac 5K is fully capable of playing back 8K, or even 12K, footage as long as it's reading off an SSD.

That said, I'm now finding my M4 Pro MacBook Pro is outperforming the iMac in many ways thanks to Apple Silicon. So, the plan is to upgrade that as well in the near future. However, the Flanders Scientific DM241 I have is still only HD, and thus I have to output HD scaling for that when it comes to color grading.

Question for all of you 12k cine users: what type of PC or Mac are you guys using to playback 8k+ Braw files in Resolve? I just upgraded my PCs graphics card to a 4090 Founders Edition and it’s still lagging a bit around 14-16 fps on playback. I’m wondering if i should have sprung for a 5090.

Btw I’m on the latest firmware of Resolve 19.

What are you actually trying to do? I can playback 12k files on a 5 year old MacBook no problem with the right settings.

JB

I can color grade in 8K timeline from 12K braw with no difficulties on system described below. A 12K timeline also works and Resolve has many was to improve playback, including proxies. Remember to consider the Preferences/User/Playback Settings.

Although I typically use a 4K timeline because the Decklink card I have is limited to that.

Also critical is what Tim mentioned about the disks being fast enough. I use all M.2 for working drives and spinning drives for storage and backup. Yep three (and at times 4) copies of files with the backup on a separate computer.

Thanks for all of your input. The issue was with the hard drive. I normally use my NAS for both storing and editing (with 6k files or lower). Running the 8k braw files off of my SSD drive play super smooth.

I’m finishing edits on my RAID5 project shot last week, but I think I’ll give this a go with my Samsung T7 Shield 2 TB on two more shoots I have this week and next week. Only 4K but interested in seeing if it makes everything easier. If that goes well, I can use the SSD for editing the annual music festival here in June.

Ordered! ETA unknown for the moment.

That’s great, Rakesh.

I'll probably end up selling the Komodo and replacing it with a Pyxis 12K eventually also.

Ordered! ETA unknown for the moment.

Nice! You'll love it!

I just shot some demo footage today with a model that I will be able to publicly share. Been using it on client video content I can't share yet. But I'm so thrilled with the image out of this camera every time I use it.

One of the last parts I was waiting on for the Body Only shipped today as well. It was the Side LCD Sunshade and Cover. Was backordered for a while.

I expect that I will! My initial setup will be pretty minimal so that I can get it operational and then expand as necessary. I'm planning on ordering a Dulens set while they're on sale, and when I get the Pyxis it's going to be the L-mount version, so that I can use L-mount lenses for travel and such, and adapt the PL lenses.

I think Black Magic stole a sale from Fuji...

I can't wait to see your footage!

I'll definitely try to capture some 12K furball footage when I get my 12K.

Can’t share more than one frame via Tapatalk right now as I’m not paying the subscription. However, here’s a preview frame straight from camera and Resolve.



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I was at an event where Arri was showcasing its new Enzo lenses in Alexa Minis, one LF and one S35.

The S35 had nicer color.

Your frame grab looks like the Alexa S35 footage.

I was at an event where Arri was showcasing its new Enzo lenses in Alexa Minis, one LF and one S35.

The S35 had nicer color.

Your frame grab looks like the Alexa S35 footage.

Interesting. I was using the DZOFilm Vespid Lenses. I believe this was the 50mm.

And, I guess the question is whether the S35 was the Alexa 35? I bet the Alexa 35 would look better than the LF mainly because newer color science and higher dynamic range.


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Here’s another frame shot 12K Q5 with DZOFilm Vespid 125mm:



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Your frame grab looks like the Alexa S35 footage.

Interesting. I was using the DZOFilm Vespid Lenses. I believe this was the 50mm.

And, I guess the question is whether the S35 was the Alexa 35? I bet the Alexa 35 would look better than the LF mainly because newer color science and higher dynamic range.

[/quote]

They had one of each. The S35 also has a new sensor design.

They had one of each. The S35 also has a new sensor design.

Yeah. I know. I really do like everything ARRI did with the Alexa 35. Body design and sensor.

However, I think Blackmagic truly nailed that special sauce with this 12K LF sensor.

I’m shooting a male model tomorrow. So I’ll have more demo footage with a male subject.

I can also share this frame from the corporate client shoot earlier this week:



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However, I think Blackmagic truly nailed that special sauce with this 12K LF sensor.

Definitely!

I’m shooting a male model tomorrow. So I’ll have more demo footage with a male subject.

I can also share this frame from the corporate client shoot earlier this week:

Kewl.

Tim, these sample shots may be demonstrating the dynamic range of the sensor. Shot 1 shadow detail excellent; Shot 2 bright sun, forehead pointed directly at the sun with no clipping; Shot 3 interior showing exterior without gels, no loss of detail.

I realize this is the Cine 12K LF, but if the sensor and image pipeline are equivalent in the Pyxis 12K LF, these shots are bearing tidings of great joy!

Rakesh, will be able to provide side-by-side test results using his Cine 12K after he picks up the Pyxis 12K in the future. Those tests will also be seminal. As the song goes, “I’m so excited!”

I'm pretty sure that they'll be identical. The DaVinci folks know their stuff; they won't let a 12K Pyxis out the door if it doesn't match its bigger brother.

I think these are going to make quite a splash in the indie world, once the indies get over their irrational fear of 12K and more and more people get to see the color rendition and how Arri like it is.

… I think these are going to make quite a splash in the indie world, once the indies get over their irrational fear of 12K and more and more people get to see the color rendition and how Arri like it is.

My take on that is that some indies with any kind of a budget are spending their precious budget renting ARRI gear because they are desperately seeking general industry approval, recognition, and RESPECT by the camera they’ve selected.

That selection is not based only on image quality regardless of what they might say if challenged. It’s perfectly fair if they site the ARRI support they’ll receive if it’s needed, except two BMD cameras might cost less than they’ll spend on ARRI. BMD is making inroads with select DOPs finding the Cine 12K impressive; it’s too early to judge reliability or support for the new cameras.

If the Cine 12K and Pyxis 12 produce a virtually identical image, and the cameras can be rigged to meet or exceed the needs of the DOPs, at some point the lightbulb will turn on. I remember when RED was showered with respect by indies and BMD may yet have their day in a year or two with a few champions.

Hollywood won’t lead any charge though as everyone wants to earn respect by getting approvals for larger and larger budgets. There are few people concerned about reducing their budgets. A couple of cameras saving them tens of thousands of dollars just doesn’t matter, sadly.

Seems to me BMD is staying true to their DNA to be a disruptor. And they appear to be adding more effort to find champions and save the rest of us precious dollars while producing beautiful work. The next four years are going to difficult for everyone so I may underestimating the appetite for saving dollars wherever a studio can to compensate for the pervasive economic uncertainty for all. I hope I’m wrong. Happy to have James Cameron shoot his final epic with BMD cameras.

Thanks Rick!

Tim, these sample shots may be demonstrating the dynamic range of the sensor. Shot 1 shadow detail excellent; Shot 2 bright sun, forehead pointed directly at the sun with no clipping; Shot 3 interior showing exterior without gels, no loss of detail.

This camera does have incredible dynamic range, and I absolutely love it. For Shot 3 I did light the scene up. It had a Forza 720B w/ Reflector going into a 4x4 Diffusion, a Forza 300B w/ Reflector going into a V-Flat Bounce Board, and a Forza 150B w/ Softbox for backlight. I'll include a lighting diagram below.

IMG_0599.jpeg (67.12 KiB) Viewed 3892 times

My take on that is that some indies with any kind of a budget are spending their precious budget renting ARRI gear because they are desperately seeking general industry approval, recognition, and RESPECT by the camera they’ve selected.

That selection is not based only on image quality regardless of what they might say if challenged. It’s perfectly fair if they site the ARRI support they’ll receive if it’s needed, except two BMD cameras might cost less than they’ll spend on ARRI. BMD is making inroads with select DOPs finding the Cine 12K impressive; it’s too early to judge reliability or support for the new cameras.

In fairness to Arri they really do have a great camera ecosystem developed. The way that the Alexa works with a WCU-4 or the Hi-5 cannot be denied. It's the one area Blackmagic is currently lacking as they need to rely on third party FIZ systems. And, Arri does provide phenomenal support.

However, I have also gotten great support from BMD. The repairs done to the Pocket 6K Pro after damage from a rental was great! And, I'm sure they'll support the URSA Cine 12K and 17K really well. The image quality out of both rivals Arri incredibly well.

I'm still working out some things regarding FIZ. I'm stuck with the Tilta Nucleus M for now, and will probably upgrade to the Mark 2 version later this year. However, based on feedback from Tilta and Blackmagic it doesn't seem that there is the level of communication you get from an Arri Hi-5 with an Alexa. Once that hurdle is passed by Blackmagic then Indie Filmmakers will love the URSA Cine.

My take on that is that some indies with any kind of a budget are spending their precious budget renting ARRI gear because they are desperately seeking general industry approval, recognition, and RESPECT by the camera they’ve selected.

My theory regarding he popularity of FX3/FX9 is that they're so compact and easy; on the verticals some of the camera operators are using the camera's autofocus to pull focus, which I think is due to having two cameras but only one camera crew, meaning only on 1st AC between the two.

Also, there's the press of "The Creator" using FX3s, combined with the fact that the FX3s are so inexpensive and compact and power efficient, even though they require external recorders for raw.

That selection is not based only on image quality regardless of what they might say if challenged. It’s perfectly fair if they site the ARRI support they’ll receive if it’s needed, except two BMD cameras might cost less than they’ll spend on ARRI. BMD is making inroads with select DOPs finding the Cine 12K impressive; it’s too early to judge reliability or support for the new cameras.

That and also familiarity. Even Hallmarks use Venice cameras around here. And hardly anyone here even seems to be aware of Black Magic outside of a few videographers. I've been a bit surprised by how rare BMD cameras are here.

If the Cine 12K and Pyxis 12 produce a virtually identical image, and the cameras can be rigged to meet or exceed the needs of the DOPs, at some point the lightbulb will turn on. I remember when RED was showered with respect by indies and BMD may yet have their day in a year or two with a few champions.

I honestly don't think it's going to take that long for people to start noticing. If they were the first BMD cameras then yes, but they've been around for long enough that I think the only barrier left is that BMD hasn't had a truly high end production camera system in the past; it's always been perceived as a great camera to get started with until you can move up in the world to higher end options with more features like 240+ FPS recording options, etc.

Hollywood won’t lead any charge though as everyone wants to earn respect by getting approvals for larger and larger budgets. There are few people concerned about reducing their budgets. A couple of cameras saving them tens of thousands of dollars just doesn’t matter, sadly.

That's true, but Hollywood is dying.

Seems to me BMD is staying true to their DNA to be a disruptor. And they appear to be adding more effort to find champions and save the rest of us precious dollars while producing beautiful work. The next four years are going to difficult for everyone so I may underestimating the appetite for saving dollars wherever a studio can to compensate for the pervasive economic uncertainty for all. I hope I’m wrong. Happy to have James Cameron shoot his final epic with BMD cameras.

Cameron is also a bit of a maverick, so I can see that happening.

But I think the next four years are going to be... interesting. I mean, Hollywood is dying but the demand for content is growing. Plus recessions drive demand for content up, rather than down. It's a lot more common in the indie world for a director/producer to hire a DoP who owns a camera package and then go to Sunbelt or Cinelease or Sparky's and rent a 1-ton grip truck that includes a Fisher dolly, or hire an independent gaffer with a 1-ton grip truck and pay them a kit fee + salary.

IMO the Pyxis 12K, once it reaches critical mass of visibility, is going to steamroll Komodo and Komodo-X, and the next step up in Red's line is $20K for the body.

Yes, excellent point that the ARRI camera ecosystem has developed over the years and is compelling as well. Remains to be seen if BMD enhances their ecosystem in another year. I’m not expecting new sensors in NAB2026 as I think they’ll concentrate on other aspects. How many years had ARRI stayed with their ALEV sensor?

Maybe Black Magic will take yet another page out of Arri's book and partner with Tilta or something to integrate focus control into the next generation of 12K cameras

Arri used the ALEV III sensor for over ten years. Even the LF uses the same sensor in pairs to make the imaging surface larger.

Thanks for your perspective, Rakesh. I mentioned James Cameron because he would be ideal for this approach. Trouble is he seems to invest several years in each product so might be awhile to reap the benefits. Of course if James merely announced he plans to shoot next with Cine 12K and Pyxis 12K, the tsunami generated by that would do the trick.

Why not ask Steve Yedlin who’s always got to ‘prove’ some concept? My latest project (currently nearing an end to a 50 hour 4K PQ render on the Mac Pro 2019), has taken Steve to heart regarding his shooting Knives Out with an identical grade for PQ and BT.1886. I disagreed with Steve as I felt he wasn’t taking advantage of PQ, but I respect his genius nevertheless. So my current dramatic project has used the identical grade for PQ, BT.1886, and sRGB renders!

Get James and Steve on board and there’s really only Christopher Nolan left to win the war. These are all rebels at heart and we love them for it. So let them show the world once again that they truly love disruption.

Any famous DoP getting on board with the 12Ks would do the trick. Or even a film like "The Creator." That ended up being great marketing for the FX3.

I thought you were mentioning James Cameron because he pushed Sony into developing the detached head version of the Venice because he didn't like the 3eality rigs with dual Red cameras since at the time the Red cameras were the big, heavy DSMC2 models, and steadicaming a 3eality rig with two of those on it was a bear. Sony solved that for Cameron, but it's now basically standard.

It's a shame there are so few Canadian camera manufacturers. I only honestly know of one, and it only makes very specialized camera systems that feature wise resemble miniature Phantoms.

Maybe Black Magic will take yet another page out of Arri's book and partner with Tilta or something to integrate focus control into the next generation of 12K cameras

Arri used the ALEV III sensor for over ten years. Even the LF uses the same sensor in pairs to make the imaging surface larger.

I've gotten Tilta's Nucleus Team to reach out to Blackmagic after providing some feedback. So, my hope is that this bears some fruitful collaborative efforts for an amazing partnership.

I've gotten Tilta's Nucleus Team to reach out to Blackmagic after providing some feedback. So, my hope is that this bears some fruitful collaborative efforts for an amazing partnership.

Congrats!

I contacted IMAX (Canadian, eh?) weeks ago to look at the Cine 17K, but haven’t had a response yet. I thought they might at least say “Thanks.” Maybe they’re trembling in their boots and saying nothing to a nobody. Cine 17K certainly can be seen as threatening their own cameras, but in my naïve optimism I thought they might embrace innovation.

I've gotten Tilta's Nucleus Team to reach out to Blackmagic after providing some feedback. So, my hope is that this bears some fruitful collaborative efforts for an amazing partnership.

Congrats!

I contacted IMAX (Canadian, eh?) weeks ago to look at the Cine 17K, but haven’t had a response yet. I thought they might at least say “Thanks.” Maybe they’re trembling in their boots and saying nothing to a nobody. Cine 17K certainly can be seen as threatening their own cameras, but in my naïve optimism I thought they might embrace innovation.

I think IMAX should partner with Blackmagic to aim for a true 70mm X 48.5mm sensor with the RGBW design. If my math is accurate then that would be 69.73mm X 48.78mm and 24,040 X 16,819 pixels, or 24K!!! Even Nolan may be hard pressed to criticize such an impressive image out of a camera that would undoubtedly be quieter than the 70mm IMAX Film Cameras.

I've gotten Tilta's Nucleus Team to reach out to Blackmagic after providing some feedback. So, my hope is that this bears some fruitful collaborative efforts for an amazing partnership.

That would be pretty amazing.

So I broke one of the WiFi antennae yesterday. They are definitely the cheap plastic kind of antennae. At least only a 20 buck replacement. But I wonder if there’s a better alternative option. Mainly a better design that is more flexible that can work. Like heat I have on wireless video transmitters from other brands.


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Gonna release this video later this week. I'm feeling good about this cut now. And, I have done the color correction I wanted to match exposures closer on some shots. Not too much color grading, but I did do the Film Look Creator in order to get this to feel like Fuji Film. Added some Bloom effect as well. This footage looks so film like that I couldn't help it.



Either way, I'm in so much awe of this camera and sensor. It's simply incredible! Enjoy this preview of this video that will be made public soon.

I received an ETA of June 19th from PrimeGear today.

I received an ETA of June 19th from PrimeGear today.

Oh nice! Congratulations!

Yeah, my Folding Sunshade finally shipped and should be here June 2nd. So I basically have all the parts now. With the exception of the UCine 15mm Baseplate that I have held off on now due other Tariffs. At least that dropped from 1,189 to 645 in pricing. Still not as good as the 475 it is supposed to be without tariffs.

I'll be working on the male model video I shot Sunday this week. And, should have a two day Photographer and Model Meetup Event this coming weekend that I can get more footage to share.

I do need to do a low light / night time shoot sometime. That's more of a production as lighting at night takes a lot of time to set up and break down. But it's on the list of things to do.

Thanks for your testing efforts on our behalf, Tim.

This is close enough to low light for me. Mainly because I had to use 1600 ISO and 3200 ISO for these shots, and you may be surprised by which one was 3200. I did use Film Look Creator and the film grain helps hide any digital noise very nicely where the entire footage feels film like.

8K VV 16x9 168 FPS and 9K S35 16x9 120 FPS. DZOFilm Vespid 125mm T2.1 Wide Open. Project Frame Rate 24 FPS.

You're making me more excited...hopefully another week and a half or so

I'm working with a production on a period piece in August; they're in for a bit of a surprise because they think I'll be shooting it on a Komodo (because that's what I own at present).

Something tells me it will be a pleasant surprise when they see the Cine 12K LF compared to the Komodo. Flex some muscle!

Especially with the vintage style Dulens lenses on top of that

I'm pretty sure that they'll be identical. The DaVinci folks know their stuff; they won't let a 12K Pyxis out the door if it doesn't match its bigger brother.

I think these are going to make quite a splash in the indie world, once the indies get over their irrational fear of 12K and more and more people get to see the color rendition and how Arri like it is.

I'm excited. Just got my 12k Cine a few weeks back and am waiting on some accessories. We are filming a nostalgic 90s coming-of-age era piece this summer! http://www.90s.movie !!!

I'm really excited to be using the URSA Cine 12k LF. Longtime BM user, coming from a URSA Mini 4.6k G2!! I also really REALLY hope they have a firmware upgrade which allows to film at smaller resolutions than 9k for Super35 glass!! This shoot is already costing me, hoping I can save on some of the media storage