Sound In the BMCC EF- When will it be Fixed ?

Chris Hocking:

Just wondering if you have had any chance to compare the new firmware 1.4.1 with the others.

Chris Hocking:

Just wondering if you have had any chance to compare the new firmware 1.4.1 with the others.

Just to keep thread current, I gather from Chris Hocking's post in another thread that he doesn't see any change.

here is a test I did comparing the last 2 firmwares on the bmcc
rode video mic pro, internal
record and itunes
Focal csm65 for play back

here is a test I did comparing the last 2 firmwares on the bmcc
rode video mic pro, internal
record and itunes
Focal csm65 for play back

Did you use a preamp? If not how did you get the levels so high/usable with the new firmware

I always use an external mixer with the BMC - so the tests I did with the latest firmware only tested line level inputs. Maybe BMD left the line level controls alone, but tweaked the mic level controls? If I get time tonight I'll plug a ME66 and NT3 directly into a camera running 1.4.1 and see what happens - but my guess is that nothing has changed from 1.3 to 1.4. Happy to be proven wrong though!

here is a test I did comparing the last 2 firmwares on the bmcc
rode video mic pro, internal
record and itunes
Focal csm65 for play back

Did you use a preamp? If not how did you get the levels so high/usable with the new firmware

no pre amp needed with the video mic pro. Only low impedance microphones need pre amps. The video mic pro terminates in stereo high impedance.

Just 3 off the top of my head that have HDMI, SDI and Audio meter:
Cineroid EFV
Alphatron EVF
smallDH DP6

Are you sure the DP6 has an audio meter? I have the AC7 - and it doesn't, unless they've recently added it in firmware?

My mistake. Must have been thinking of the Zacuto EVF.

here is a test I did comparing the last 2 firmwares on the bmcc
rode video mic pro, internal
record and itunes
Focal csm65 for play back

Did you use a preamp? If not how did you get the levels so high/usable with the new firmware

no pre amp needed with the video mic pro. Only low impedance microphones need pre amps. The video mic pro terminates in stereo high impedance.

Then how come when I am using my Video Mic Pro with the bmcc (v1.4) all of my audio levels are below -30db? even with +20db on the mic? How do you get usable audio without a pre amp?

Then how come when I am using my Video Mic Pro with the bmcc (v1.4) all of my audio levels are below -30db? even with +20db on the mic? How do you get usable audio without a pre amp?

+1

Maybe I'll get to talk to some bmd people on the ibc! Going tomorrow

Sent from my Android Phone

Maybe you should rather talk to Rode.

There are 4 flavors of Videomic out there, as far as I know, only one plays nice with the BMC.

Going out on a limb here, since I have no Videomic, but what I can see from the specs, the VideomicPro should give you the best results out of the box on the Pocket (since it has a stereo in)- you need to set your camera to mic, not line - maybe you also need the +20dB level boost.

On the balanced mono inputs of the "big" BMCs, coming with an unbalanced stereo signal from the VideoMic is asking for trouble. Depending on internal cabling of your adapter the signal can get pretty weak or even totally canceled.

This is what often happens, when consumer equipment meets pro gear.
As far as I know, this can also be handled with a proper stereo/unbalanced to mono/balanced adapter.
Also don't use line levels here, you want mic levels.

@Frank

Well I dont have a rode Mic. I just interested in getting either a rm222 or bmc366 from juicedlink. So ill go check out how necessary the bmc366 is.

Sent from my Android Phone

/quote]


Then how come when I am using my Video Mic Pro with the bmcc (v1.4) all of my audio levels are below -30db? even with +20db on the mic? How do you get usable audio without a pre amp?[/quote]

sounds like there is something wrong with the mic

http://whirlwindusa.com/support/tech-ar ... e-signals/

Maybe you should rather talk to Rode.

you need to set your camera to mic, not line - maybe you also need the +20dB level boost.

proper stereo/unbalanced to mono/balanced adapter.
Also don't use line levels here, you want mic levels.

these are most likely your issues

Sound In the BMCC EF- When will it be Fixed ?

I think we can safely assume the answer by now

Is this the ultra high frequency sound i hear from the camera even if its on or off youre talking about?

The sound issue bridges several issues depending on current firmware. In general, there is no real easy way to monitor levels, and thus the continuing request for VU meters. Also of concern was a problem with DC Offset in early firmware that was replaced in a fix attempt in 1.3.1 and 1.4.1 and .2 versions that resulted in loss of lower frequency response. Most who are complaining are trying to use camera as advertised by Black Magic in initial sales literature which promised professional lever audio recording capability.

I am not aware of any ultra high frequency sound. Is it possibly coming off the charging unit ? When camera is on, fan makes noise that makes in camera mic useless for decent sound.

This problem will not be solved by BM. The hardware is incapable of delivering this, as well as the programming that went into the camera. One of the reasons they dropped the price by 1/3rd after release. BM is moving on from this product as it is clearly a non-functioning dud with regard to several of their empty promises that they even printed on the box.

This problem will not be solved by BM. The hardware is incapable of delivering this, as well as the programming that went into the camera. One of the reasons they dropped the price by 1/3rd after release. BM is moving on from this product as it is clearly a non-functioning dud with regard to several of their empty promises that they even printed on the box.

This is not the case in any way, shape or form. The development team is working on a firmware update. I know it's not as soon as most of you may have wanted it to happen, but it is being worked on.

Thanks Tony for the update.

i hope they fix the black hole bug as well... bloody BS the pocket camera gets it as the cinema camera doesn't?!?! audio,black sun spot, and compressed raw. thats the need... should have been fixed within the first month of shipping. if magic lantern had this camera they would of somehow made higher fps and higher asa.

Just for some more clarification:

I don't have a hand in or knowledge of what exactly the firmware updates are going to be for the camera. I don't want my earlier statement to be taken out of context and people assume that I'm speaking specifically about the audio or any other concerns you may have. I just know that there is something being worked on and we will update you guys when that becomes available. The development team is working very hard on these, and we are very dedicated to growing the Blackmagic CInema Camera.

Just for some more clarification:

I don't have a hand in or knowledge of what exactly the firmware updates are going to be for the camera. I don't want my earlier statement to be taken out of context and people assume that I'm speaking specifically about the audio or any other concerns you may have. I just know that there is something being worked on and we will update you guys when that becomes available. The development team is working very hard on these, and we are very dedicated to growing the Blackmagic CInema Camera.

No backing out now Tony, all I heard from that post was "we are fixing all problems in next firmware update due for release later today"

Just for some more clarification:

I don't have a hand in or knowledge of what exactly the firmware updates are going to be for the camera. I don't want my earlier statement to be taken out of context and people assume that I'm speaking specifically about the audio or any other concerns you may have. I just know that there is something being worked on and we will update you guys when that becomes available. The development team is working very hard on these, and we are very dedicated to growing the Blackmagic CInema Camera.

Tony your response here is a smart business decision which I for one am happy to see.

I've listened to all the griping as well as all the complaints about the griping. The fact is that if Blackmagic hired me and I delivered a project 90% complete without any communication, I would either be fired or at the very least never be hired again.

It's a smart business decision to communicate with your clients so they can plan their business around yours. Smart business decisions created from an intelligent brand platform that is based on clear communications lead to strong bonds.

Thank you.

Just for some more clarification:

I don't have a hand in or knowledge of what exactly the firmware updates are going to be for the camera. I don't want my earlier statement to be taken out of context and people assume that I'm speaking specifically about the audio or any other concerns you may have. I just know that there is something being worked on and we will update you guys when that becomes available. The development team is working very hard on these, and we are very dedicated to growing the Blackmagic CInema Camera.

Tony your response here is a smart business decision which I for one am happy to see.

I've listened to all the griping as well as all the complaints about the griping. The fact is that if Blackmagic hired me and I delivered a project 90% complete without any communication, I would either be fired or at the very least never be hired again.

It's a smart business decision to communicate with your clients so they can plan their business around yours. Smart business decisions created from an intelligent brand platform that is based on clear communications lead to strong bonds.

Thank you.

Rule #1: Never plan your business on unreleased products or features and never plan your business around any release dates that BMD say.

Jules

Rule #1: Never plan your business on unreleased products or features and never plan your business around any release dates that BMD say.

I wouldn't limit this rule to just a specific company, and I'm not just saying this to take sides for my employer.
I think it's good business to plan yours around what you have available, not what you hope to have. Of course, that's my own personal belief.

I think it's good business to plan yours around what you have available, not what you hope to have.

(collective gasp)

(collective gasp)

Dramatic pause....

I wouldn't limit this rule to just a specific company, and I'm not just saying this to take sides for my employer.
I think it's good business to plan yours around what you have available, not what you hope to have. Of course, that's my own personal belief.

Tony, I think this is a good sentiment, but it assumes that what you have available performs in a way it should perform for the different scenarios it was designed for.

For example - I shot an event recently with my BMCC as my main camera, and my BMPCC as my B cam. I had clean audio running from the AV company's sound board, through my JuicedLink Riggy Assist (to monitor and adjust audio levels) through to the balanced inputs to the BMCC. My headphones were plugged in to the camera headphone jack to monitor exactly what the camera was hearing. During the event, the BMCC switched from Mic to Line for no reason that we could figure out immediately, causing us to lose our main audio for about a minute while we frantically tried to switch back to Mic before powering the camera off and then back on again.

Side note - if anyone says that we should have been recording audio separately, I will take that as a written promise from you to buy and send me a capable audio recorder and sound recordist, as they are not currently in my client's budget for these shoots. Thank you so much in advance for your generosity.

Back to it - the cameras switch from Mic to Line when the circuits are in danger of overloading, which I think is a great feature since it ultimately (hopefully) protects the camera to extend long term use. However, there is no warning that the levels coming into the camera are too high and that this feature is going to kick in. I understand not having audio meters in the BMCC (the BMPCC is a different story), but not having any audio peaking warning, or Mic to Line switch warning can really leave a shooter in the lurch, even when trying to ride levels via a preamp.

I had not had any problems up to this point with the Mic to Line switch and have shot with the BMCC in a variety of controlled and less controlled situations. I love the audio I get from the Riggy to the BMCC. I love the BMCC and the image it shoots. In this situation, I did in fact plan a project around what I had available and still got scorched by a feature with good intentions but not as good an execution.

Tony, I would encourage you to take this back to the engineers and ask that they implement some kind of warning when the camera is going to flip from Mic to Line, akin to the SSD or SD disk full warning that the cameras have. I would encourage other folks on the forum who read and agree with this to give Blackmagic a call and (politely, we're mostly adults here I assume) let them know this would be good for the next firmware update. When I called and spoke with support (who were immensely helpful and pleasant) they agreed that it's something that should be implemented and they logged that to send over to the engineering side. When I mentioned that this had been brought up in form or another on the forums, they seemed surprised, saying that it hadn't been brought the their attention directly. I think this is somewhat telling and I hope it spurs you to contact Blackmagic directly to discuss features you think are important or missing (again, politely).

Thanks for reading my long winded story!

Matthew

I do know the developers browse the forums from time to time but I'm sure recently, they've been busy on other projects to get all of your concerns addressed.

I wouldn't limit this rule to just a specific company, and I'm not just saying this to take sides for my employer.
I think it's good business to plan yours around what you have available, not what you hope to have. Of course, that's my own personal belief.

Tony, I think this is a good sentiment, but it assumes that what you have available performs in a way it should perform for the different scenarios it was designed for.

For example - I shot an event recently with my BMCC as my main camera, and my BMPCC as my B cam. I had clean audio running from the AV company's sound board, through my JuicedLink Riggy Assist (to monitor and adjust audio levels) through to the balanced inputs to the BMCC. My headphones were plugged in to the camera headphone jack to monitor exactly what the camera was hearing. During the event, the BMCC switched from Mic to Line for no reason that we could figure out immediately, causing us to lose our main audio for about a minute while we frantically tried to switch back to Mic before powering the camera off and then back on again.

Side note - if anyone says that we should have been recording audio separately, I will take that as a written promise from you to buy and send me a capable audio recorder and sound recordist, as they are not currently in my client's budget for these shoots. Thank you so much in advance for your generosity.

Back to it - the cameras switch from Mic to Line when the circuits are in danger of overloading, which I think is a great feature since it ultimately (hopefully) protects the camera to extend long term use. However, there is no warning that the levels coming into the camera are too high and that this feature is going to kick in. I understand not having audio meters in the BMCC (the BMPCC is a different story), but not having any audio peaking warning, or Mic to Line switch warning can really leave a shooter in the lurch, even when trying to ride levels via a preamp.

I had not had any problems up to this point with the Mic to Line switch and have shot with the BMCC in a variety of controlled and less controlled situations. I love the audio I get from the Riggy to the BMCC. I love the BMCC and the image it shoots. In this situation, I did in fact plan a project around what I had available and still got scorched by a feature with good intentions but not as good an execution.

Tony, I would encourage you to take this back to the engineers and ask that they implement some kind of warning when the camera is going to flip from Mic to Line, akin to the SSD or SD disk full warning that the cameras have. I would encourage other folks on the forum who read and agree with this to give Blackmagic a call and (politely, we're mostly adults here I assume) let them know this would be good for the next firmware update. When I called and spoke with support (who were immensely helpful and pleasant) they agreed that it's something that should be implemented and they logged that to send over to the engineering side. When I mentioned that this had been brought up in form or another on the forums, they seemed surprised, saying that it hadn't been brought the their attention directly. I think this is somewhat telling and I hope it spurs you to contact Blackmagic directly to discuss features you think are important or missing (again, politely).

Thanks for reading my long winded story!

Matthew

First....I COMPLETELY agree there should be a visible clue when overload protection kicks in, or a peaking indicator, or audio meters. The camera NEEDS one of these. Glad to hear the engineers are still working on audio for the BMCC!

In this instance, are you sure you didn't make an error setting your level? I've tested this "feature" and recorded a 4 minute interview with a completely unusable, overloaded signal. (was inputting line level and it was set to mic)

It would take a really HOT signal to trip this function...unless it is indeed a bug, but I would think more people would be experiencing it? :shrug

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Maybe IO remember that wrong, but wasn't that "overload switch" fixed (or rather disabled) in one of the last firmware versions?

I wouldn't limit this rule to just a specific company, and I'm not just saying this to take sides for my employer.
I think it's good business to plan yours around what you have available, not what you hope to have. Of course, that's my own personal belief.

This is not an issue of planning to shoot a certain way before you have something in hand. This is a matter of a promise made about what the camera would do made by what should be a reputable company. Most of the those upset ordered a year before delivery based on representation of availability which was delayed as well as features to be on board, and then when shipments finally started, what was promised was not on board. That has nothing to do with actually buying with knowledge that the camera was lacking in some way or another.

You seem to be saying don't rely on anything we promise because we don't know what we are going to be able to deliver at this late date. Hardly admirable, like some here are seeming to say.

Maybe IO remember that wrong, but wasn't that "overload switch" fixed (or rather disabled) in one of the last firmware versions?

Thank you Frank for chiming in. Based on my phone discussion with Blackmagic support, the overload switch is still in place. Maybe it's just been adjusted and we were unlucky?

Matthew

Sorry Matthew, but I don't think you can blame Blackmagic in this case.

It is WIDELY documented, that the audio functionality on this camera is horrible. Ask anyone that's ever used it, and they'll agree. Whoever you bought the camera off should have alerted you to this fact. I quick Google search would have alerted you to this fact.

But... in the unlikely case that you had no connection with the outside world, and bought the camera purely based on the spec list on the side of the box - you should have still done tests before using it on a paid job. Regardless of the product, you should never just take it out of the box and start shooting straight away without testing - that's just dangerous.

Yes - Blackmagic have released a product that doesn't meet expectations. But this is widely known.

As for the line level protection - as far as I know, this was only an issue in the 1.2 firmware, and was "fixed" in 1.3 and 1.4. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as most of my testing is with Line Level inputs.

Why you were receiving a Mic Level signal and not a Line Level signal from the desk (or just using a in-line pad if the AV techs could only had a Mic Level output free) is another good question!

I've said this is another thread, but I'll say it again anyway...

I don't think the audio is going to dramatically improve any time soon. The problem I think is that most of the hardcore beta testers are all cinematographers who always work with audio professionals - so timecode syncing the cameras makes the most sense rather than wasting development resources getting the audio firmware right. I'm also going to ASSUME that the audio hardware itself is pretty cheap and nasty, so I'm not sure firmware updates will fix all of the issues.

These camera's are CINEMA cameras - I think BMD have just decided that CINEMA users will just record a timecode track and be done with it (aka John Brawley).

Sad... but I think given BMD's track record with firmware releases today, I don't think we'll see any improvement to the audio functionality until we see a MKII of the hardware.

My prediction - they'll release an AMIRA style camera at NAB to address the doco/run-and-gun market.

When I mentioned that this had been brought up in form or another on the forums, they seemed surprised, saying that it hadn't been brought the their attention directly.

This is absolutely incorrect. Kristian Lam, the Senior Product Manager for the Cinema Cameras at Blackmagic Design has replied to various concerns on these forums. I also know for a FACT that audio tests were done prior to the camera's release, and all of the camera audio issues were documented and noted.

Blackmagic Design is DEFINITELY aware of each and every issue with the camera. They keep a VERY close eye on these forums.

I have no idea of BMD's intentions or reasonings behind their decisions - but they're not idiots.

Professionals are using the BMD on big budget projects every day without issue. As far as I can tell, this is the audience that BMD wanted.

For those "less-than-professional" or the "prosumer" market or professionals who are doing low-budget jobs where compromises need to be made - then you can DEFINITELY make these Cinema Camera's work in terms of audio - just ask Frank Glencairn. We've shot hundred's of hours of footage with the BMCC and recorded all the audio in camera, simply due to time and budget restraints with the project. We have the gear to do dual system sound - but if the budget doesn't call for it - you need to make compromises.

The Cinema cameras are CINEMA cameras - but there also incredibly cheap, so you really need to factor this into the equation.

HOPEFULLY BMD eventually release a fix to the cinema cameras - but as someone who's been waiting for over a year now for a such a simple fix (we know it's simple, because the frequency attenuation issue didn't exist in 1.2 and doesn't happen on the Pocket camera) - I've given up waiting.

It'll be interesting to see if all the issues are magically resolved when the 4K is released, or whether it will just come with a whole new set of bugs and problems.

… For those "less-than-professional" or the "prosumer" market, or professionals who are doing low-budget jobs where compromises need to be made - then you can DEFINITELY make these Cinema Camera's work in terms of audio - just ask Frank Glencairn. We've shot hundred's of hours of footage with the BMCC and recorded all the audio in camera, simply due to time and budget restraints with the project. We have the gear to do dual system sound - but if the budget doesn't call for it - you need to make compromises.

The Cinema cameras are CINEMA cameras - but there also incredibly cheap, so you really need to factor this into the equation.

HOPEFULLY BMD eventually release a fix to the cinema cameras - but as someone who's been waiting for over a year now for a such a simple fix (we know it's simple, because the frequency attenuation issue didn't exist in 1.2 and doesn't happen on the Pocket camera) - I've given up waiting.

It'll be interesting to see if all the issues are magically resolved when the 4K is released, or whether it will just come with a whole new set of bugs and problems.

+1!

-

@tonyrivera......how BM of you to tell us a fix is being worked on then retract that by saying you are not sure exactly what fix is being worked on. Kind of like printing features on a box then later telling us in a forum thread that those features might not be present in the camera

@chrishocking.....The "cinema camera" argument no longer holds water. BM decided to take this camera beyond cinema camera specs when they promised professional audio inputs and recording, and a video mode with a pre-colored look (although still not correctly colored). Those features were designed and advertised to attract people who had planned to use the camera as a dslr replacement with better sound capability, and better image capability. A camera they could use as effectively for small jobs that required embedded audio and pre-colored footage. That was false advertising. If it never is resolved, it should be grounds for a class-action suit.

It disturbs me to read statements about engineers not knowing things requested in the forums....but they don't have time for our feedback, right? I mean they gotta get the next camera out there quick before they announce yet another one at NAB next year! Never mind that it does not work properly, just get something to sell to those suckers who trusted us.

sound angry? I am. I took a chance over a year ago to pre-order a camera as a replacment for my older hvX200 and DSLR. Strongly considered a c300, but was convinced by BM that their camera would deliver far better images WITH embedded audio than the canon product. Over 1 year later, and I am still being told to be patient because engineers might be solving some of the problems with the product. Or they might not be, as none of them will tell us the truth of what can and will be done. Nor will their fanboy apologists, as well as the paid apologists who moderate this forum.

BTW BM....how is my 3 month open ticket on the rec709 in-camera video lut not being accurate coming along? What's that? You are looking into it? thanks. Same answer as last month and the month before. how on earth would I ever lose faith in you with this kind of relationship?

I'm also going to ASSUME that the audio hardware itself is pretty cheap and nasty, so I'm not sure firmware updates will fix all of the issues.

Is there such bad audio hardware on the market? this is standard stuff being around for years now its not rocket science. 5DMII from 2009 does record better audio than the BMCC did Canon use better parts for their Foto first Camera than BM for their Movie-Camera? Sounds strange. Anyway its just dissapointing.

Chris, thanks for your reply, but it's a great example of why I don't usually comment on these forums. I can't tell if you are deliberately being insulting or if you just don't realize that it comes across as such. I'm hoping it's the latter and that as is often the case online, one can't infer tone simply through reading text.

I was never blaming Blackmagic for the problem I experienced, I was just trying to point out to Tony that the statement he made is a nice one, but not always one that you can rely on. I apologize if it came across that I was blaming Blackmagic. I've bought two of their cameras - the BMCC and the Pocket - and was lucky enough to get both of them early in the process, I'm all in on the cameras they're making. And I disagree that the audio on the camera is horrible. By itself, maybe, but as I noted in my post, when paired with the JuicedLink Riggy Assist RA333, I've been very pleased with the results that we've achieved on a number of projects. And I suppose I haven't listed my CV on the forums, which would explain why you might assume that I would just buy a camera without research or testing. But don't worry, I've been making my living off of high profile production projects for international clients for more than a decade now, so I do have an inkling of the process. Clearly (as I've mentioned on other posts) I'm not as technically minded as you and others here obviously are, but I get by.

"As for the line level protection - as far as I know, this was only an issue in the 1.2 firmware, and was "fixed" in 1.3 and 1.4. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as most of my testing is with Line Level inputs."

What was communicated to me by Blackmagic technical support when I called them and discussed this issue (as I had scanned the forums and thought the same thing that you did) was that the line level protection still existed. Whether or not it has been adjusted for higher input before overload, or I simply misunderstood the person I was talking to, I can't say with certainty. Also, for the event, I was receiving a signal that only came in via the Mic setting from the camera. I assume that this is because the Riggy is sending a Mic Out Level, as is labeled on the front of the device, but again, I'm not as technically savvy as some folks. In any case, we weren't able to get any kind of sound into the camera via Line level setting, so we went with what has worked for us in our repeated testing of the camera. If you have a better way to get audio into the camera, I'm happy to give it a test, or feel free to come out and troubleshoot our audio at the next event. I would be fascinated to speak with you in person and I'm sure I could learn quite a bit from you, as I already have by reading posts of yours on the forum.

"g14matthew wrote:
When I mentioned that this had been brought up in form or another on the forums, they seemed surprised, saying that it hadn't been brought the their attention directly.

This is absolutely incorrect. Kristian Lam, the Senior Product Manager for the Cinema Cameras at Blackmagic Design has replied to various concerns on these forums. I also know for a FACT that audio tests were done prior to the camera's release, and all of the camera audio issues were documented and noted."

No, what I said was correct, I am almost one hundred percent positive as I was actually on the phone with the Blackmagic support person and had the conversation with him. I did not talk with Kristian, so perhaps there's a disconnect in communication at Blackmagic - which I'm not insinuating there is - but that may be why you're reading one thing on the forum and I'm hearing a different thing in person. I'm assuming it will get sorted one way or the other and I do hope that, as I mentioned earlier, they at least add an audio peaking indicator in the camera via a firmware update.

Again, thank you for taking the time to read my original post in its entirety and providing thoughts that related to it somewhat. I hope that other people can glean information from these posts and are encouraged to respectfully and politely contact Blackmagic support directly if there are issues that they don't understand and are having trouble with. It seems like this is the best method to communicate with Blackmagic what's going on and what users are having trouble with or are looking for in the cinema camera line.

Matthew

@chrishocking.....The "cinema camera" argument no longer holds water. BM decided to take this camera beyond cinema camera specs when they promised professional audio inputs and recording, and a video mode with a pre-colored look (although still not correctly colored). Those features were designed and advertised to attract people who had planned to use the camera as a dslr replacement with better sound capability, and better image capability. A camera they could use as effectively for small jobs that required embedded audio and pre-colored footage. That was false advertising. If it never is resolved, it should be grounds for a class-action suit.

Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely LOVE BMD to update the firmware to fix the audio issues.

But... the cinema cameras are still cinema cameras. The market doesn't dictate that - the manufacture does. Canon market's their DSLR's as high end stills cameras... oh, and by the way, it also offers "Live View movies recorded in Full HD".

BMD have made it clear when talking about the camera, that it's not a DSLR replacement. It's designed for high end, serious work. And... people are actually using this camera for this kind of work.

It's such a strange beast though, because being so cheap goes against everything we've previously known as professional. As always you get what you pay for - so this camera will always have major compromises - but at the same time they're aiming at the pro market. Very bizarre.

Strongly considered a c300, but was convinced by BM that their camera would deliver far better images WITH embedded audio than the canon product.

This is why BMD have been so disruptive and made the whole market so confused.

BMD has spent a huge amount of time and energy on the sensor. They have managed to create a sensor and colour science of similar look to the Alexa for really, really cheap. This is ground breaking. But, then they through it in a new and innovative, yet not very practical, high-tech case.

The BMCC & Pocket have fantastic image quality (albeit still with a few quirks!) - but you get what you pay for.

The C300 costs significantly more than a BMCC - and as a result, the build quality is better, it has much more functionality, and it just works.

If I was doing doco or run-and-gun work, I'd pick a C100/300/500 over the BMCC any day of the week.

Is there such bad audio hardware on the market? this is standard stuff being around for years now its not rocket science. 5DMII from 2009 does record better audio than the BMCC did Canon use better parts for their Foto first Camera than BM for their Movie-Camera? Sounds strange. Anyway its just dissapointing.

I'm not an engineer, so I actually have no idea. But... the headphone output on all of the camera's sound horrible - and I would imagine this would have to be a hardware limitation. Whether the audio circuit's are better or worse than than of a 5D I don't know... but my guess is that even if the audio circuits are the same, the way they are implemented might be at fault. Maybe by trying to jam so much tech into a tiny box that needs to be able to function correctly over a wide range of temperatures, means they cut some corners, and there's some earth leakage problems, or some of the wiring is not as well shielded as it should be. I have no idea - but one day I'll open up our camera, take some photos and send it along to some professionals to give their thoughts!

And I disagree that the audio on the camera is horrible. By itself, maybe, but as I noted in my post, when paired with the JuicedLink Riggy Assist RA333, I've been very pleased with the results that we've achieved on a number of projects.

As I said, you can make it work if you do some work in post. What gets recorded is no where nearly as bad as what you have to monitor from the headphone jack. And THIS is my major complaint. Because the headphone jack is so horrible - you have no idea what you're actually recording, until you listen to the final result. You can't actually monitor what the camera is recording, as you'll get a massive headache - so you end up just listening to what you're mixer's sending, and you just have to trust that nothing goes wrong between the mixer and the camera.

This is a big problem if you're using the 1.2 firmware - because if the "mic level protection" kicks in, you can loose audio, without even knowing it, and the only way to fix it is a camera restart. Fun! Fun!

What was communicated to me by Blackmagic technical support when I called them and discussed this issue (as I had scanned the forums and thought the same thing that you did) was that the line level protection still existed. Whether or not it has been adjusted for higher input before overload, or I simply misunderstood the person I was talking to, I can't say with certainty.

What firmware are you running?

That's really interesting if they've brought back the functionality in newer firmware, as it was DEFINITELY gone in one of the previous releases. Let me know what firmware you're running and I'll do some tests.

Also, for the event, I was receiving a signal that only came in via the Mic setting from the camera. I assume that this is because the Riggy is sending a Mic Out Level, as is labeled on the front of the device, but again, I'm not as technically savvy as some folks. In any case, we weren't able to get any kind of sound into the camera via Line level setting, so we went with what has worked for us in our repeated testing of the camera.

Yes, the RA333 is designed for DSLRs, and only offers an amplified mic level output. So regardless of what you're feeding the RA333 - the settings on the camera must be set to Mic Level.

This is the problem with the juicedLink products when using with BMCC. If you're using a firmware version with the Overload protection, the whole system is unreliable, as if you feed it a "hot" signal, the camera will switch from Mic to Line, or worse, just switch off the whole audio functionality without notice, requiring a restart to fix. I was under the impression that this was fixed in 1.3 and above... but if you're running 1.3 or above and it's happening to you, then maybe not!

Personally, I would always run a Line Level signal to the camera - so I've never run into this overload protection issue in the past. But if you're using the RA333, you have no choice.

No, what I said was correct, I am almost one hundred percent positive as I was actually on the phone with the Blackmagic support person and had the conversation with him. I did not talk with Kristian, so perhaps there's a disconnect in communication at Blackmagic - which I'm not insinuating there is - but that may be why you're reading one thing on the forum and I'm hearing a different thing in person. I'm assuming it will get sorted one way or the other and I do hope that, as I mentioned earlier, they at least add an audio peaking indicator in the camera via a firmware update.

Back in June Kristian Lam commented:

We are always trying to improve things with each software release. In 1.3, there was a change to fix DC offsets in the audio which I'm sure you've noticed but as a result, it affected the frequency response of the audio. But rest assured we're looking into it.

They've had 6 months to fix the frequency response issue. They've fixed it in the Pocket. It didn't exist in 1.2, so it's obviously a mistake in the code. They fixed the DNxHD crashing bug VERY quickly - so we know they can release firmware updates quickly. Why haven't they fixed this audio issue then... no one knows...

I actually find this has been Blackmagic's fault across the line of their products.

They bang out something that has wonderful specs and promise. You get all excited and buy it.

In reality, you bump into a number of very serious issues with it that drive you up the wall and prevent the usage as advertised.

Not that it won't work; but that it will only work under very specific conditions that were NOT disclosed beforehand.

A capture card suddenly requires a specific graphic card install alongside. Or a minimum of 8 (eight!) HDDs in Raid 0. No sir, four or six won't do, even though they technically pass the speed test. Software would show no dropped frames but in fact there are. Etc etc etc.

In general, BM's engineering is flippant. They come 90% of the way and never finish the last 10%, then just let their customers hang.

Same with BMCC. Wonderful video image, mired by ever-lasting issues - no audio meters or decent monitoring; no remaining SDD space indicator; no in-camera disc formatting; battery life shorter than midget moth's (yes I made those species up), REC709 applied only to internal monitor but not output; no HDMI out; dropped frames during recording are Not reliably detected/indicated; etc.

BMCC is like Lindsey Lohan - great image, but too many flaws that linger for too long.

HA...Lindsay Lohan...does that mean BM is often too drunk at the party to know what they are promising??

I wouldn't limit this rule to just a specific company, and I'm not just saying this to take sides for my employer.
I think it's good business to plan yours around what you have available, not what you hope to have. Of course, that's my own personal belief.

This is not an issue of planning to shoot a certain way before you have something in hand. This is a matter of a promise made about what the camera would do made by what should be a reputable company. Most of the those upset ordered a year before delivery based on representation of availability which was delayed as well as features to be on board, and then when shipments finally started, what was promised was not on board. That has nothing to do with actually buying with knowledge that the camera was lacking in some way or another.

You seem to be saying don't rely on anything we promise because we don't know what we are going to be able to deliver at this late date. Hardly admirable, like some here are seeming to say.

Like I stated in my previous post, this is from my perspective and not from the company. I was not around for the release of the BMCC and have tried my best to keep up with that whole situation from the messages here on the forums.

@tonyrivera......how BM of you to tell us a fix is being worked on then retract that by saying you are not sure exactly what fix is being worked on. Kind of like printing features on a box then later telling us in a forum thread that those features might not be present in the camera...

It disturbs me to read statements about engineers not knowing things requested in the forums....but they don't have time for our feedback, right? I mean they gotta get the next camera out there quick before they announce yet another one at NAB next year! Never mind that it does not work properly, just get something to sell to those suckers who trusted us...

I didn't retract anything. I simply didn't state every single detail which leads some to think that I or BM are hiding something. I apologize for not being thorough with my post.

I also didn't say the engineers weren't aware of the concerns from the users, I simply said they've been busy.

Please don't take what I've said out of context. I'm here to help you all as much as possible with the information I'm given. I know some of you think it's not enough, and myself and the powers that be are aware of it. I pass along as much info as I can to those folks as well as them having access to this forum to read what needs you guys are requesting.

Tony:

I don't know if you have any pull with the higher ups at BM, but in this day and age a lot of bad feelings can be healed by simple communication from one of those big bosses. We are all decent people who bought relying on certain things being on board. Sure there can be a dispute about what the promised performance could mean. But more than anything, my thought is that most who bought the BMCC EF and MFT are working on a close budget for equipment. Many film makers in the independent area are making films on little or no budget. That could be because of the hobby status of some, or the fact that a lot of shooters just aren't making a lot of money. So one reason we speak with urgency, is to try to determine what will be coming, so we don't duplicate the fixes coming from Black Magic. From that standpoint, a communication from BM about what it is fixing and some kind of estimate as to when it is coming would be great.

I personally love BM attempt to meet the needs of this market. It is admirable, and gives most of us a chance to shoot at a level we couldn't have imagined. I can remember posting a what I want out of a camera many years back in a forum. Those were the days of Letus Adapters, and all kinds of attempts to get a film look. The BMCC EF met all of those needs, and I feel blessed that we have gotten where we are.

But BM needs to step up and finish the job, and take it off the back burner. You guys fixed some bad issues with the imaging part of the Pocket Camera, and seem to be relegating the EF and MFT to back burner status. Please tell the big bosses communication and assurance is needed.

I am dreaming of a fantastic feature filled rollout of a new firmware, given all the time that has passed, but I am realistic about that and hope just the basic functions and fixes will be addressed forthwith.

I really respect Tony for saying what he did, but I think it should go in the form of a sticky post from Tony or Grant or someone high up. This thread isn't the place to put what IMO is important info. I almost completely missed it.

More than a "debate", isn't this just a simple question being ignored (or at least danced around)? Without hearing about it being a "cinema" camera again, when will the audio in the BMCC EF be fixed?

Marc you know that I can't answer that question. And you know already that BMD don't talk about unannounced features. Aren't you asking a question you already know the answer to ? We all know you're not happy but it's the same song isn't it....

Clearly you've never been able to shame them or embarrass them into changing the way they choose to run their corporate communications. Yet they only time we seem to hear from you is when you can get the boots in.

Yeah. Audio isn't well implemented on this camera and it should be.. Yeah they should fix it. Yeah they know about it.

jb

knowing about it and doing something about it are 2 different things

I am quite happy with the overall BCC 2.5K performance, but these audio issues are a bug and should simply be fixed. The camera is advertised as capable of recording sound directly into the memory card, and currently it is not.

In addition, it looks as if the firmware updates had been for the worse in many regards, which confirms that there are bugs to be repaired, rather than simply "camera characteristics" that one should learn to live with. Please Blackmagic take action soon.

Meanwhile, even if Blackmagic technicians are aware of this forum's contents, perhaps it could be useful to write to Support insisting on fixing these issues, specially if -as suggested- they gather information from people recording audio into external devices rather than the camera itself, as most BCC user are trying to do.

One more thing -while we wait for an update that fixes audio issues, would it be possible to go back to 1.2 firmware?