Let's See Effective Sound Recording Rigs!

For the next recording of my neighbourhood’s celebration of Covid-19 health care workers, I’m going to record Spaced AB (Schoeps MK2 omnidirectionals) and ORTF (Schoeps MK41 supercardiods) at once. I’ll record tonight or tomorrow night, depending on wind conditions (we’re apparently in for high winds from tonight through Monday afternoon).

I also want to try using a Jecklin Disk with the MK2 mikes. I have a recording by the Takács Quartet and pianist Marc-André Hamelin that was made with a Jecklin/MK2 setup. Here’s a link to the Prestö Classical page with samples of the tracks: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/p ... artet-no-2

Here’s a photo taken during the recording session that shows the rig:

takacs.jpg (72.45 KiB) Viewed 40124 times

This is an interesting discussion.

I’m interested in recording song and music, but my typical audio challenge use case is ENG style capture of unstagemanaged political actions.

I may be doing some on-the-street interviews, and your setup, and watching videos on your Vimeo channel, help think that through.

Thanks

As all of us know, one of the basic considerations that drives decisions about stereo techniques and rigs is the perceived need for mono compatibility. I wonder whether this issue is now obsolete.

On a practical level, are there any devices that don’t play in stereo? Even my smartphone has two speakers and plays in stereo. Does anybody have one, not two, computer speakers, and if some people do, should one care?

I’m raising the question because I’d like to just drop mono compatibility as a consideration. For one thing, it would remove the main reservation about AB Spaced recording, which I really like. Anyone know of a reason why, in 2020, one should care that someone, somewhere, might be listening in mono? Is there a world of mono playback devices out there of which I am blissfully unaware?

As all of us know, one of the basic considerations that drives decisions about stereo techniques and rigs is the perceived need for mono compatibility. I wonder whether this issue is now obsolete.

On a practical level, are there any devices that don’t play in stereo? Even my smartphone has two speakers and plays in stereo. Does anybody have one, not two, computer speakers, and if some people do, should one care?

I’m raising the question because I’d like to just drop mono compatibility as a consideration. For one thing, it would remove the main reservation about AB Spaced recording, which I really like. Anyone know of a reason why, in 2020, one should care that someone, somewhere, might be listening in mono? Is there a world of mono playback devices out there of which I am blissfully unaware?

I think it’s a requirement for extracting dialogue and placing it in the center speaker on a 5.1 setup. I’m not 100% certain but I think extracting mono from an AB spaced omni setup is not a problem but it is if you have an XY setup.

I think it’s a requirement for extracting dialogue and placing it in the center speaker on a 5.1 setup. I’m not 100% certain but I think extracting mono from an AB spaced omni setup is not a problem but it is if you have an XY setup.

By mono compatibility, I mean fidelity when played back on mono devices. For example, mono playback of an AB Spaced recording can result in phase issues. I guess the question is, does anybody listen on mono devices anymore in a world where even phones play in stereo?

On the sound editing/panning issue that you raise, I would have thought that someone working in 5.1 is recording their dialogue track in mono anyway. Even recording stereo, the norm is to record dialogue in mono. In the post eight up, that’s how Owen’s documentary rig is set up - one mike recording ambience in stereo, one mike recording speech in mono.

I think it’s a requirement for extracting dialogue and placing it in the center speaker on a 5.1 setup. I’m not 100% certain but I think extracting mono from an AB spaced omni setup is not a problem but it is if you have an XY setup.

By mono compatibility, I mean fidelity when played back on mono devices. For example, mono playback of an AB Spaced recording can result in phase issues. I guess the question is, does anybody listen on mono devices anymore?

On the sound editing/panning issue that you raise, I would have thought that someone working in 5.1 is recording their dialogue track in mono anyway. Even recording stereo, the norm is to record dialogue in mono. In the post eight up, that’s how Owen’s documentary rig is set up - one mike recording ambience in stereo, one mike recording speech in mono.

Yes when 2 channels are summed there can be issues on mono playback but that will be the same whatever way it's captured - Ambisonic, M+S, AB or XY. I've been trying to play with the Rode ambisonic samples some more but still the same problem remains which is that playing back the ambisonic track on a 2 channel output (headphones) it sounds very nice and immersive but as soon as you select the stereo (or even mono) output the sound quality is dramatically reduced as is any convincing sense of 3d with any of the stereo options. My gut feeling is that if you want a pure ambisonic multi speaker end result it's going to work but if you want a stereo or mono option you may be better off capturing in the traditional way - AB, XY, M+S. This likley is a limitation of the software and hardware that Rode is offering and not the concept itself as is evidenced by the much higher cost of Soundfield mics and other higher end offerings.

I've been trying to play with the Rode ambisonic samples some more but still the same problem remains which is that playing back the ambisonic track on a 2 channel output (headphones) it sounds very nice and immersive but as soon as you select the stereo (or even mono) output the sound quality is dramatically reduced as is any convincing sense of 3d with any of the stereo options. My gut feeling is that if you want a pure ambisonic multi speaker end result it's going to work but if you want a stereo or mono option you may be better off capturing in the traditional way - AB, XY, M+S. This likley is a limitation of the software and hardware that Rode is offering and not the concept itself as is evidenced by the much higher cost of Soundfield mics and other higher end offerings.

In theory, an ambisonic mike is the Swiss Army Knife of microphones for ambient recording. I say “ambient recording” because advocates acknowledge the need for spot mikes. Sennheiser’s own training videos mix dialogue recorded separately to the AMBEO’s ambient tracks. Its web site also pushes the Neumann KU 100 dummy head mike over the AMBEO for binaural recording. I think that that is just a reflection of the reality, an acknowledgment that there are limits to the AMBEO’s sonic quality. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if Neumann’s US$8400 dummy head results in better binaural sound than the $1360 AMBEO. From what I’ve heard so far, I don’t think that the AMBEO will be replacing my Schoeps mikes.

To me, the use case is situations where one needs the compactness of a Swiss Army Knife single mike at a price that doesn’t break the bank, and is prepared to compromise on quality. I’m just not in that situation, although the price of the Core Sound TetraMic is attractive enough (US$625 if one doesn’t need the phantom power module) that I might purchase one just to experiment with 360 video.

Where I’m coming out is that I’ll stick with stereo; in 2020 I can’t think of a substantive reason to care about mono compatibility; and while I love binaural recordings, the fact that listeners have to wear headphones to experience the benefit is a major disincentive to adopt it as a regular technique. In most cases, it’s just annoying when a video starts off with an instruction that I must wear headphones, failing which I’m a sonic Luddite :) Now, where can I rent/borrow a Jecklin Disk...

DPA’s Microphone University is a great resource. It’s just uploaded an interesting webinar on how rigging of lavalier mikes affects speech intelligibility and what kind of EQ correction is needed:

DPA has also uploaded a timely webinar titled “How Content Creators can Optimize Audio when Working at Home”:

Thanks for the DPA’s Microphone University links, especially the first video is interesting and both very well explained.

If you check the YouTube Description section for the first video, there’s also a link to a DPA page on the issue.

DPA has been saying this for a long time, but very few people are aware of it. When I’ve told people that DPA says that the best position for its lavaliers is on the forehead (or at the hairline, where it is indeed possible to hide a mike), they look at me in disbelief. After all, lavs are supposed to go on the chest or lapel, right?

The EQ curve for chest mounting is helpful, but I will mount on the forehead if I can, which works with some hats. It also works with the Ursa Head Strap, which was developed for motion capture and puppeteers, but can also be used under a hat, or instead of one if one is just recording audio. I’ve also used the strap for binaural ambient recording, with two DPA miniature mikes mounted on my ears (the mikes are mounted on earbuds, in my case Apple AirPods Pro). The Head Strap is a good way to manage the mike cables. For ambient recording, the disadvantage that the video discusses with ear mounting does not apply:

Demo for sound recordists from France (at 03:05):

How to put it on video:

Here’s the dual stereo rig that I used tonight to record my New York neighbourhood’s cheering of health care workers:

1. AB Spaced at the ends of the stereo bar (Grace Design Spacebar), consisting of two Schoeps MK2 omnidirectional mikes with Cinela windshields;
2. ORTF in the centre, consisting of two Schoeps MK41 supercardiod mikes with Schoeps W5D windshields.

I mounted the ORTF mikes on a Vark bar, in turn mounted on the stereo bar, because I only have three mounts that work with this stereo bar.

In earlier photos (above), the MixPre was mounted between the top of the monopod and the stereo bar, but here I just hung it around my neck.

With the monopod (Gitzo GM4542) and tripod (Really Right Stuff (TVC-32g) collapsed, the height, including the mikes, is 0.9m/37”. Width of the stereo bar is 0.66m/26”.

ab-ortf-side.jpg (433.34 KiB) Viewed 39874 times

ab-ortf-front.jpg (440.02 KiB) Viewed 39874 times

Any chance we could listen to these recordings?

Any chance we could listen to these recordings?

Sure, as soon as I figure out how to process last night’s recording, which I decided to record in 32-bit and which turns out to be a right pain to work with.

I have a single 32-bit poly Wave file with four tracks. I don’t want anything complicated, just a stereo Spaced Pair file and a stereo ORTF file. Simple, right?

Sound Devices’s own WaveAgent was last updated in 2015 and won’t split 32-bit files. iZotope RX6 won’t either. RX7 will split the file, but according to Sound Devices won’t export in 32-bit, and the trial version, which I tried, will not save the split. I’m not about to upgrade to RX7 just to split 32-bit files, especially given that RX8 is now seven months overdue.

Logic will split the file but wants to convert the individual files to 24-bit. iZotope’s new iteration of its mastering software, Ozone 9 Advanced, won’t even recognise the file. I have no interest in trying to use a video editor (Final Cut or Resolve).

Pro Tools is a non-starter. After seven months, Avid is still saying that Catalina operability is “coming soon”. I’m now playing with an evaluation copy of Reaper, which will allegedly work but has a learning curve of its own and seems quite unlike both Logic and Ableton. So far, no joy but plenty of frustration :) Now thinking of trying Adobe Audition.

Any chance we could listen to these recordings?

Apart from the problems discussed in the post above in processing 32-bit recordings ...

My initial view of the recordings, which I’ve been able to at least play in Logic, RX7 and Reaper, is that a Spaced Pair results in a noticeably more spacious, “being there” sound than ORTF.

I need more recordings to assess whether my initial view is correct. Weather permitting (no rain, and wind light enough to use the Schoeps W5D windscreens), I plan to repeat the recordings tonight and Sunday night.

I am probably going to persist in recording 32-bit because I want to make it work and I want to understand the workflow better. Sound Devices does have a compatibility chart, but it’s one thing to read it and another to understand what it means as a practical matter. There is a clear gap between the hardware technology and the software technology, one which is being bridged only slowly. I was pretty surprised to learn that iZotope’s mastering software, an industry leader, won’t even recognise, let alone open, a 32-bit file. As noted in the post above, it turns out that Sound Devices’s own location sound utility app won’t process its recorders’ 32-bit files.

That said, these recordings are an example of a situation where 24-bit will work if you know what you’re doing (e.g. realise that drivers may come through, joining in by honking their horns), but where 32-bit does buy insurance. On short recordings like these, the additional 33% data cost of 32-bit is not terribly significant, although it’s worth noting that at 96kHz last night I managed to rack up 850MB in just a few minutes. Given that I plan to record at 192kHz tonight and tomorrow (for future processing, not fidelity, reasons), I can double that per night.

Without listening to your recordings but with reference to my own AB setup I would say the spacing is too wide for a realistic presentation but it will as you say be' spacious'. For 32bit isn't it just a matter of not having to set the gain rather anyting intrinsically better in 32 vs 24 i.e as long as you are not clipping and not hitting the noisefloor of the mic there is not going to be any difference between a 24 and 32 bit recording?

Without listening to your recordings but with reference to my own AB setup I would say the spacing is too wide for a realistic presentation but it will as you say be' spacious'. For 32bit isn't it just a matter of not having to set the gain rather anyting intrinsically better in 32 vs 24 i.e as long as you are not clipping and not hitting the noisefloor of the mic there is not going to be any difference between a 24 and 32 bit recording?

Hi John,

The distinction that you are drawing between spaciousness and realism is very much what I want to focus on after making further recordings. Because I’m recording people over a fairly wide soundstage, so far I think that spaciousness wins. That said, I’m impressed at how well the supercardiods are doing despite directionality. The directionality manifests itself even in gain. I recorded all four mikes at the same gain. If you look at the recorder in the second photo above, which was taken on the street just before the event started, you’ll see that the fader knobs for channels 1 and 4 (the spaced pair) are lit up in green, but channels 2 and 3 (ORTF) are pale. The omnidirectional spaced pair mikes were picking up more sound energy than the ORTF mikes, not surprising. Tonight, I may run different gain for the two pairs.

Yes, there is no qualitative difference between 24-bit and 32-bit. The latter is all about saving your ass if you clip, and arguably if you record way too low, although it isn’t clear to me what the benefit is with low gain if you have good mikes and good preamps. Maybe I don’t understand that part well enough. In any event, in almost all discussions the focus is on inadvertent clipping.

I think that Owen’s one-man ENG setup (first post on this page) is a pretty good circumstance for recording in 32-bit. However, I am struck by the number of people touting this who seem to be oblivious to, or just want to ignore, the current issues and limitations, among them the fact that Sound Devices’s own location sound utility app, widely used in the business, won’t even split or combine 32-bit location sound recordings. Apart from being a metadata and report editor, splitting multichannel files is its basic processing function.

... with reference to my own AB setup I would say the spacing is too wide for a realistic presentation but it will as you say be' spacious'.

I was thinking about your comment while recording tonight. Some people record AB, especially when the AB mikes are widely separated, with a cardiod in the centre. There’s nothing to prevent me from mixing in the ORTF tracks, or from recording with a single supercardiod between the AB mikes.

Worth a try. Have you done it yourself?

Starting to think about images to go with the sound, currently weighing stills vs video, maybe a mix of both. I don’t see the images solely as a visual documentation of the event/sound that I’m recording.

Not used a 3rd center mic in an AB setup but I guess my M+S setups has this function by design and I can vary the ‘ spaciousness’ of the sound. It never sounds quite as natural though as an AB. The original ‘Decca tree’ stereo capture system had a center mic BTW but AFAIK it was in an XY array. BTW the mic spacing on your XY also looks a bit wide - have you tried it with the capsules closer together? As I’m only doing static setups I haven’t required 32 bit as I can set gain quite easily but in dynamic situations it could be helpful for sure either where you are expecting very large sound level changes or in a run and gun situation where you can’t ride the gain on the go but you are still limited by the mic and pre amp range so it’s not 100% foolproof. When I traded my 702 for the MP6 one feature that took me a while to get my head round was the analogue gain + digital gain on the MP6 vs just the analogue gain on the 702 and the fact that it a lot easier to ride the gain on the go on the 702 vs the MP. People have also said the limiters on the 700 series are better but I have never had to use them.

Not used a 3rd center mic in an AB setup but I guess my M+S setups has this function by design and I can vary the ‘ spaciousness’ of the sound. It never sounds quite as natural though as an AB. The original ‘Decca tree’ stereo capture system had a center mic BTW but AFAIK it was in an XY array. BTW the mic spacing on your XY also looks a bit wide - have you tried it with the capsules closer together? As I’m only doing static setups I haven’t required 32 bit as I can set gain quite easily but in dynamic situations it could be helpful for sure either where you are expecting very large sound level changes or in a run and gun situation where you can’t ride the gain on the go but you are still limited by the mic and pre amp range so it’s not 100% foolproof. When I traded my 702 for the MP6 one feature that took me a while to get my head round was the analogue gain + digital gain on the MP6 vs just the analogue gain on the 702 and the fact that it a lot easier to ride the gain on the go on the 702 vs the MP. People have also said the limiters on the 700 series are better but I have never had to use them.

I have a 702T and I prefer using it when I don’t need the MixPre’s footprint/weight or additional channels. Can’t believe that I just suggested that a 702 suffers on the question of portability :)

I’m recording just a few feet from the gate of my building’s courtyard and the mikes tend to get a bit out of kilter as I carry the setup from my apartment to the street. As you say, the ORTF angle in the photo is slightly wide. It was adjusted, which is one of the last things I do before recording.

Once you add a bigger battery to the MP6 it's not that much smaller than the 702.

Not used a 3rd center mic in an AB setup ...

I’ll record AB plus ORTF tonight because I have a fourth CMC6 preamp until tomorrow. Then I’ll try AB (MK2) plus a supercardiod centre mike (MK41).

I’m thinking about trying a Neumann KU 100, although any wind protection would have to be DIY because there’s apparently nothing off the shelf. I’d probably try material made for lav mikes. My vendor has a Neumann available as of May 1st:

neumann.png (292.56 KiB) Viewed 39748 times

EDIT: Turns out Neumann does make wind protection for this mike. Looks like earmuffs

This is a terrific discussion about the types of stereo rigs that some of us have been discussing in this thread. It's part 2 of a series that Fabfilter, an important maker of sound mixing software, has uploaded over the last couple of weeks.

The series is called "How to mix in stereo... without sucking in mono". I've pretty much decided that I no longer care about mono compatibility, but this is an extremely good series anyway. This part of the series is called "Timing... the secret of great stereo".

The discussion gets technical at 07:20. Some may want to move on at that point. The presenter is sound engineer and producer Dan Worrall:

These techniques are probably the reason I much prefer sound from 80's and have LP player.

The current problem I would like to learn to do better is wind. Here is a recording I just made. It is not very windy, but some wind. This is in middle of forest so the wind sound comes from every direction and on real life sounds spacious, and could be even interesting, but via shotgun microphone it sounds just like fluctuating noice.

The easy solutions would be no wind and going closer to the birds, but how to record the sound of windy forest, and mix with the birds, I am quite happy how the shotgun microphone picks up the birds singing.

This is directly from the recorder, just 1 shotgun microphone https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Fdl_8 ... GHzIRdzKn7

Wind is a serious problem and has ruined 75% of my recordings so here is what I have learnt;
Just avoid recording on any but the most windless days - this is probably going to save you the most time and effort of any wind protection methods.
Effective wind protection systems require a large air gap between the mic and the material so blimps are essential for anything other than the slightest breeze.
A fur cover is also needed but you will lose some HF content and 'airiness' from fur but it's a tradeoff.
Use omnis as shotgun and other directional pattern mics are more susceptible to wind.
The lower to the ground the mic the lower the wind speed but you may then pick up noise from grass, leaves etc.
With all sound recordings there is no substitute for being as close to the sound source as possible both to maximise the signal to noise (wind noise as well) and to achieve the correct spacial perspective - don't expect to capture distant quiet sounds with a shotgun and a lot of gain and expect it to sound anything other than very unnatural.
Lastly there is the issue with monitoring for wind content as it's often very difficult to hear the LF wind interference when monitoring and also it's easy to get confused by the sound of wind moving over and around your ears and headphones.

Hi Kim,

Your Sennheiser 416 shotgun mike is good for recording pinpoint sounds that it is pointed at such as a person talking, a bird singing or someone striking a match. It is good at this because it downplays other sounds in the vicinity that it isn't pointed at. Shotgun mikes do not act like zoom lenses, which is why it is important to get the mike close to the sound that you want to record.

It is often hard to get a mike close to a bird, so people who want to record birds often use a parabola dish behind the mike. The parabola helps collect and concentrate the bird sound. A Swedish company called Telinga is not the only company making these parabolas, but it is the most prominent.

If you want to record the sound of the forest generally, you should be using an omnidirectional mike or at least a standard cardiod mike. The general sound of the forest is precisely what your shotgun mike is rejecting in favour of what it is pointed at. You are trying to make it do something that it isn't designed for. This explains why your EOS R recording, despite poor technical quality, actually sounds more natural than your shotgun recording.

When I make a recording of the sound of a forest, or any other recording of ambient sound, I regard wind as a natural part of the recording. Video of flowers or trees moving in the wind, with a soundtrack that has no sound of wind, makes no sense. Recording wind is good, and doing it well is an accomplishment. It's an accomplishment because the trick is to record wind without the wind overwhelming the mike, resulting in the ugly sound of wind hits. The first time that I was able to record wind causing an actual whistling sound, but without wind hits, I felt quite proud of myself. Note that wind itself does not have a sound. What you are hearing, and recording, is physical objects reacting to wind. An obvious example is wind chimes.

A couple of technical points. Watching your video, the breeze looks to be fairly light and it isn't obvious to me that you need the fur. I assume that there is a plastic basket under the fur. If so, in light wind try recording with just the basket.

For at least part of the video, you cut everything below 200Hz and everything above 10,000Hz. This is pretty drastic and something that I would do only in unusual circumstances. I certainly wouldn't do it to a recording of general ambience. You may find it helpful to do some reading on what's below 200Hz and what's above 10kHz. You might also find it helpful to get a trial copy of iZotope RX or Adobe Audition to look at spectrograms of your recordings. This will show you visually what kinds of sound sources generate what frequencies, which really helps understanding what's going on both when you're recording and when you're applying equalisation.

Cheers

These techniques are probably the reason I much prefer sound from 80's and have LP player.

.

Stereo recordings in the 80s were made with the same techniques discussed in the Fabfilter/Dan Worrall video to which you refer (five posts up), and vinyl vs digital playback is a different, unrelated, issue.

For at least part of the video, you cut everything below 200Hz and everything above 10,000Hz. This is pretty drastic and something that I would do only in unusual circumstances. I certainly wouldn't do it to a recording of general ambience. You may find it helpful to do some reading on what's below 200Hz and what's above 10kHz. You might also find it helpful to get a trial copy of iZotope RX or Adobe Audition to look at spectrograms of your recordings. This will show you visually what kinds of sound sources generate what frequencies, which really helps understanding what's going on both when you're recording and when you're applying equalisation.

To expand a bit on this comment re Kim's video, it helps to know that human hearing, at least for younger people, ranges from 20Hz to 20,000Hz. At the top end, he cut out fully 50% of the frequencies that people can hear. In part, he was recording birds. Some birds sing at 10kHz, and for many, many birds a cut at 10kHz is certain to throw out harmonics. At the bottom end, it helps to know, when cutting low frequency sound, that the lowest note on a piano is 27.5Hz and that the frequency range of a typical adult male is 85Hz to 180Hz.

Do you have any other microphones Kim?
The Canon mics have the spatial effect but are decidedly 'low-fi' and the shotgun has no spatial effect but has all the resolution. There are plugins in most audio editors which (attempt) to simulate a stereo effect ('Hass') which are worth a try but are no substitute for a proper stereo setup.

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

The high and low cut was only on the part mentioned, and just to test. The below 200 Hz was to take the wind hum away, and I think it worked somewhat and birds anyway should be above that. The above 10kHz was unnecessary, the idea was to take wind hiss a way, but anyway I do not hear above 10kHz, but some do and it might effect the harmonics of the birds as you say.

Other parts where unedited other than level. Regarding level the MixPre had the limits working a bit on the noisiest part of the helicopter, but I was surprised that it was quite badly distorted when opened in Final Cut Pro. That was before lowering the levels. I guess this was because of 24 bit recording and 16 bit timeline?

I am not sure what I had on the Final cut project and do not find how to see the project details

I don't use Final Cut to process sound, but as far as I can tell from looking at its audio features what you are using is an expander, which is a somewhat nuanced version of a noise gate. It has its place, but it's a pretty rough and ready form of equalisation.

If you want to get a handle on sound processing for your recordings, I would suggest that you get a dedicated sound app. GarageBand comes with your Mac. Its big brother, Logic Pro X, has a 90 day free trial. Audacity is free. Reaper is fairly cheap at US$60 and there's a 60-day free trial.

As suggested above, I think that you would also benefit from downloading a trial version of iZotope RX7 or Adobe Audition just to look at spectrograms of your recordings. There's a lot to be learned from them.

I stand to be corrected, but as far as I know Final Cut project settings don't have a way to set bit depth, just sample rate. I use 48kHz for video and I don't know what happens if you try to mix sample rates, if that's what you did. On bit depth, my understanding is that Final Cut always uses 24 bit, although I don't know what's involved with the recent introduction of 32 bit floating. That aside, I'd be surprised if there's a downside to processing 16 bit at the higher 24 bit. I would think that it's pretty common for people to bring 16 bit recordings into Final Cut.

I have lavalier microphone and one AKG C214, but that I do not have with me now. I could maybe get a second AKG C214 and use them as stereo pair. Also thinking, maybe I should just get something inexpensive like Rode M5 stereo pair, it is anyway for hobby and learning.

The MixPre 10T and MKH 416 I found used at good price. Maybe I could get lucky also with a used stereo pair or ambisonic microphone, but not sure what I am looking for.

I think that you should decide what you want to record and whether you think that you need to record in stereo. The fact is, between a good omnidirectional lavaliere, a cardiod AKG C214 and a supercardiod Sennheiser 416 there's nothing that you can't record well.

Stereo and ambient sound is something I want to experiment and understand better.

In that case, the US$200 pair of Rode cardiods that you mentioned three posts above can be used for both XY and ORTF stereo configurations. Never having used a Rode mike, I can’t comment on how good they are.

You would also need a short stereo bar and wind protection. Rode makes its own stereo bar: http://www.rode.com/accessories/sb20 It also has an arrangement with Rycote on windshields, but I don’t know if it has something for these mikes.

You also mentioned getting a second AKG C241 cardiod as a possibility. These can probably be used, but I think that large diaphragm mikes are not very convenient for stereo field recording.

I often end using iPhone

I’ve used an iPhone 11 Pro Max to record sound. Provided that you aren’t recording in wind, it’s quite a bit better than I expected. Interestingly, if you use one to record in a loud environment, there is pretty clearly an algorithm at work that will apply heavy compression to prevent clipping. If you want to make a recording with a wide dynamic range, using an iPhone is not the way to do it. That said, I think that the decision to include this algorithm is a good thing, but it’s something to be aware of.

The woman waving to others cheering health care workers across the street lives in our co-op. As you can see, New York’s cherry trees are in full bloom.

I changed the rig tonight, having returned the additional Schoeps CMC6 preamp to the rental house. The new setup (photo below) replaces the ORTF configuration that was in the centre with a single Schoeps supercardiod MK41.

The distance between the Spaced Pair at the ends of the stereo bar (Schoeps MK2 omnidirectionals) is 56cm/22” and the MK41 is midway between them. The idea is to add signal to the centre, and the concept is based on a stereo configuration called a Decca Tree.

I removed the fur from the Cinela Léonard windshields on the MK2 mikes because there was almost no wind. The windshield on the centre mike is a Schoeps hollow foam ball (W 5 D).

I want to record with this setup for another two days, and then I’ll spend time listening to, and comparing, all three setups: Spaced Pair, ORTF, Spaced Pair with Centre Mike.

My sound dealer says that the Neumann KU 100 binaural “dummy head” mike will be back from rental in early May. It’s a US$8400 mike - very expensive to rent pre-pandemic, not cheap even now - but this may be my one opportunity to try one out. If I rent it, I’ll use it for much more than just these recordings. Thinking about it.

neighbours.jpg (500.85 KiB) Viewed 39617 times

3-mikes-rear.jpg (479.69 KiB) Viewed 39617 times

Further to the above post, I made my third recording tonight with a Spaced Pair Plus Centre Mike and will now compare the recordings with Spaced Pair by itself and ORTF. There are also the Sennheiser AMBEO recordings, but I don’t feel a need to pursue that route.

One thing that’s clear is that the centre mike improves the “realness” or smoothness of the sound transition from left to right (or vice versa) when recording a moving object passing the mikes, such as a car.

To split my multitrack 32-bit files into 32-bit mono tracks, I settled on Adobe Audition. My understanding is that Reaper will do it, but coming from Logic and Ableton I found Audition more intuitive and easier to figure out. Given that Logic has used 32-bit for a very long time, I don’t know why it wants to convert Sound Devices 32-bit files to 24-bit, and I have not come across an explanation.

Yesterday, Sound Devices uploaded a video to YouTube on using its WaveAgent app to split polyphonic files, neglecting to mention that WaveAgent doesn’t work with 32-bit files from its own MixPre recorders. A question in YouTube comments about when this will be addressed is thus far unanswered.

A few posts up, I said that I might rent a Neumann KU 100 next month to run some binaural tests.

It turns out that DPA has just released a new binaural recording product called DPA 4560. This consists of two DPA 4060 miniature mikes mounted on a headband/ear hooks based on DPA’s 4266 headset.

Like many people, I already own 4060 miniature mikes, and indeed I’ve experimented by mounting them on Apple AirPods Pro. The DPA headband would be a better solution, so I’ve sent DPA an e-mail asking whether I can purchase the headband by itself.

Interestingly, DPA has developed an equalization curve that it says will overcome the need to use headphones for playback, making binaural recordings suited to playback on stereo speakers.

In this video, DPA talks about using its new product with Sound Devices MixPre recorders and its own DPA d:vice miniature preamp, both of which I own. The two-channel d:vice preamp is shown at 02:53. It connects to an iPhone or iPad, which is just used as a storage device.

The setup makes for an extremely compact binaural recording rig:

Further to the post above, there are now a few recordings on YouTube made with DPA’s 4560 binaural rig. The best of these, actually made with the rig on a dummy head, is a recording of a piano quintet. The Paris street recordings demonstrate the need to protect the mikes from wind. There’s also a nature recording that shows what happens when there are no visual cues for changes in sound perspective. It may have been a good test for the person who uploaded the recording, but it’s disconcerting for a listener.

This Resolution Magazine article has a good overview of the rig: https://www.dpamicrophones.com/news/res ... s-dpa-4560

DPA has updated its Microphone University page on binaural recording to include the 4560, and it includes a discussion about using equalization to make the recordings compatible with stereo playback: https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-univ ... techniques

As mentioned in the prior post, I already own DPA 4060 lavaliers. However, if I were purchasing a pair, I’d want to know, if I bought them as part of this rig, what would be involved in using them independently of the rig. I would think that it’s just a cabling issue, easily addressed.

Looks like I'll have a Neumann KU 100 for a week. I spoke with someone who has years of experience with this mike, and the clincher to go ahead was being told that the Neumann, unlike other binaural mikes, is compatible with stereo playback without corrective equalisation. The person that I discussed the mike with described it as “a brilliant stereo mike”. He says that it’s sensitive to wind (“the ear acts like a funnel”), but I think that I’ve figured out a solution. Photos next week.

neumann.png (292.56 KiB) Viewed 39214 times

He says that it’s sensitive to wind (“the ear acts like a funnel”), but I think that I’ve figured out a solution.

If you don't mind being laughed at when you're using one of these things, there are some headphone style furry windscreens designed for binaural mics. I have a pair, actually, made by Soundman in Germany, for my Soundman binaural mic, about halfway down this page: http://www.soundman.de/en/products/

They make you look like a teddy bear; they're noticeably bigger than ear muffs, although in cooler seasons I suppose they could pass for ear muffs. But they work very well.

He says that it’s sensitive to wind (“the ear acts like a funnel”), but I think that I’ve figured out a solution.

If you don't mind being laughed at when you're using one of these things, there are some headphone style furry windscreens designed for binaural mics. I have a pair, actually, made by Soundman in Germany, for my Soundman binaural mic, about halfway down this page: http://www.soundman.de/en/products/

They make you look like a teddy bear; they're noticeably bigger than ear muffs, although in cooler seasons I suppose they could pass for ear muffs. But they work very well.

Thanks, is it this? With everyone wearing masks, I doubt people will bat an eye at earmuffs on a dummy head :)

kopf.jpg (328.21 KiB) Viewed 39198 times

Brad's solution for wind protection for the Neumann dummy head looks good, but delivery from Germany by Monday is unlikely. Neumann makes its own earmuffs, but my sound dealer doesn't have them.

The gentleman who I discussed the mike with, who interestingly lives and works in the Canadian Arctic, said "what you need is a cup shape". When he said that, I was a few feet away from the rig in the photo below, and thought "Bingo". The two mikes at the ends have Cinela Leo acoustic baskets on them. Those baskets can be separated in half, one for each dummy head ear, with fur added if necessary. I can use the fur that comes with the Cinelas, or sound company Bubblebee's Piece-a-Fur, which can be cut to size and would work perfectly. A bit of double-sided tape and I think I'm set.

3-mikes-rear.jpg (479.69 KiB) Viewed 39193 times

Thanks, is it this? With everyone wearing masks, I doubt people will bat an eye at earmuffs on a dummy head

Aye, that's the one. And if it's on a dummy head, it'll be fine. I wore it on my own head and it made me look like a dummy. They are shaped like little teacups, and very effective.

The Soundman binaural mics are actually surprisingly good; they're quite affordable and come in three different sensitivities. However, I have my doubts about their longevity. Mine served me well for about a year, but now when I wear them whenever I turn my head I hear a grinding noise in one of them that gets recorded in the file. Probably a loose connection somewhere. It probably wouldn't be a problem on a dummy head, though.

I got mine to use with my original Pocket camera for projects where I need to move quickly and don't have time to set up my real sound recording rig. It was an okay solution.

I know that at least a couple of participants in this thread record music as well as dialogue or sound effects. Earlier today, I came across this brief video from a performance that London musician Jacob Collier gave last fall at "The Opera House" theatre in Toronto. I've never seen anything quite like this - he turns the entire audience into a choir - and thought that I'd post it.

Collier, who is 25, came out of YouTube and has a young, somewhat niche following. He's a musician's musician, hard to peg. What's clear is his technical virtuosity and extraordinary vocal range. Managed by Quincy Jones, he has now won four Grammy awards.

Further to the above post, this is the music video for Collier's Grammy-winning arrangement of Lionel Richie's All Night Long. It's clear that Collier could have hired whoever he wanted to make the video, but he chose to construct and edit it himself in Premiere Pro. He also arranged, orchestrated, recorded, mixed and produced the music.

Stylistically, I think that the video shows the influence of Collier's YouTube roots. That isn't a criticism. I think that a lot of the people who trash YouTube videos just don't understand YouTube or feel threatened by it. It's not hard to trace YouTube stylistically to at least the 1960s, and vlogging to at least the 1980s. Personally, I think that Collier’s video is a refreshing change. Unlike many music videos, it is about the music.

To pursue the thought about YouTube for a moment, the original vlogger may have been Nelson Sullivan, who started vlogging with a VHS camera in 1983, and who was doing stuff almost 40 years ago that Casey Neistat is credited with inventing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Sullivan Sullivan documented the New York gay community, and RuPaul fans will discover a very young RuPaul in his videos, which are now on YouTube: http://nelsonsullivan.com/index.html. I wonder whether Sullivan himself was inspired by David Holzman's Diary, shot in 1967: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Holzman%27s_Diary

In the video, Collier not only sings the lead vocal, but also plays piano, guitar and drums. Full credits in the YouTube Description. I got a kick out of the music construction ("bring the beat in") and theory references:

"Chord-sign holders: Quincy Jones, Steve Vai" (01:14 and 03:30; Jones is also at 05:25)
"Circle of Fifths guy: Lionel Richie" (05:32, with Quincy Jones; Richie is also at 05:17)

People who are interested in the arrangement and stems can watch Collier's video about the Logic Pro X session. He says that he wrote the arrangement in six hours.

I picked up the Neumann KU 100 this afternoon and made my nightly recording of my neighbourhood expressing appreciation for health care workers. Having just listened to the recording, I think that this is a brilliant microphone. However, the sound is so different from what I’m used to that I think that it's going to take some time to learn how to get the best from the mike. Luckily, I have it for a week.

I plan to do side-by-side recordings using both the Neumann and a couple of Schoeps mikes in either ORTF or AB configuration. Apart from satisfying sheer curiosity, this will help me figure out the Neumann's stereo compatibility.

The mike is made to be mounted on a mike stand. In the third photo, you can see that the cable from the mike and the mike's 5/8" female thread are right beside each other. I could only mount the mike on the monopod by removing the monopod's top plate. By the way, the cable is 5-pin XLR and splits into two 3-pin XLR cables to the recorder.

It was a bit breezy, but I decided to forgo windscreens over the ears/mikes in order to find out how sensitive the mike is. It's not as sensitive as I thought it might be, but I expect to use the Cinela half-baskets (see four posts up} regularly.

I need to come up with a name for my new pal :)

IMG_0477 2.jpeg (171.07 KiB) Viewed 26895 times

IMG_0484 2.jpeg (169.09 KiB) Viewed 26895 times

IMG_0486 2.jpeg (65.03 KiB) Viewed 26895 times

Rob, this is a pretty long thread at this point. have you posted any of your sound records, so that we can listen to them?

Rob, this is a pretty long thread at this point. have you posted any of your sound records, so that we can listen to them?

Hi Adam,

As you know, the rigs that people have been talking about in this thread are for ambient/special effect and music recording rather than dialogue. Given the current situation, music is out of the question, at least where I live, and I doubt that there's enough interest in ambient/sound effects recordings to make it worth the effort of uploading them to SoundCloud or wherever.

However, there's not much about recording with the Neumann KU 100 on YouTube* and I'll decide tomorrow whether I have the time to make a video on using the mike in addition to making recordings with it. It's a lot easier to focus on recording sound than to complicate matters by shooting and processing video as well.

However, as a result of your post it has occurred to me that I could mount an iPhone on the Neumann, which has a 5/8" female thread on the top of the head. This would be a quick, easy way to accompany a sound recording with video footage. It's also a way to make a sound recording with reference footage that can be helpful when incorporating the sound into video projects.

* The exception is Matthew Lien's channel. However, note that a lot of his videos are focused on recording the sounds of spaces for use later as ambient background for studio recordings. Basically, he's making spatial reverb recordings. This is a pretty specialised use of the mike.

Rob, it would be interesting to have a little chat with your new pal, to see what he is made of ... And also would be very interesting to hear a recording made with it. ... I found some pictures of it, wow that is a 8000 euro microphone.

Neumann's web page on this mike has several documents about it that can be downloaded. The head is fairly heavy and it opens up to reveal several controls. The head itself is firm, but the ears are quite flexible.

As you may know, Sennheiser owns Neumann. Sennheiser's AMBEO Virtual Reality system incorporates this mike by recommending its use for binaural recording over Sennheiser's much less expensive AMBEO VR mike, discussed earlier in this thread. Sennheiser has also developed a plugin for the mike called AMBEO Orbit. This plugin, which I've now downloaded, is used to control spatial orientation of a recording once it is imported into a digital audio workstation: https://en-us.sennheiser.com/ambeo-orbit

On price, note that there are two microphones, one for each ear, and the mike comes in a purpose-built, heavy duty hard case with several accessories. A single Neumann U87 with shock mount, one of the more highly regarded vocal mikes, costs US$3600 before tax. For me, this is an opportunity to find out, over the course of a week, what Neumann's binaural mike can do.

Re what a recording sounds like, Sennheiser has uploaded this promotional video on the mike being used at a Zurich jazz club called Moods:

This BBC story is more technical, showing how the BBC is incorporating binaural into 360 video. There is a demonstration of the Neumann KU 100 starting at 04:30:

You could also check out Matthew Lien's YouTube channel, but note my comment at the end of the post just above.

Thanks Rob. It certainly would be interesting to hear some of your recordings.

Given that I can easily mount an iPhone on top of the head to shoot video, I may upload a recording or two to YouTube.

This Radio France recording of American singer Kurt Vile at Eurorocks 2016 shows that I'm not the first person to figure out that half an acoustic basket by Cinela, Rycote, etc. can be used to protect the Newmann KU100 from wind:

Interestingly, the Radio France engineer decided that protection was unnecessary for some of the recordings, this one of a band called Balani Show Bizness de Bamako. This video shows quite a lot about how the mike responds to the location of sound in space:

This is a photo of Neumann's own wind protection for the mike. I think that it's for indoor use or a fairly light breeze outdoors:

WSB_Neumann-Windscreen_M.png (497.93 KiB) Viewed 26825 times

The last video above I think is pretty good (for the sound), but the separation of left and right feels too big. It is also very confusing when the camera is moving around, but the head is not moving with the camera. Would be much better the camera attached to the head as you mention.

I have now with me only Bose S35II with them the sound stays pretty much inside my head. Will be interesting to test with better headphones.

You can use Sennheiser's AMBEO Orbit plugin (see five posts up) to control separation/panning of the sound. Indeed, you can control such factors as the sound's elevation in vertical space.

The BBC video (also five posts up) talks about visual confirmation of where a sound is coming from. This is an issue with all virtual reality and binaural videos.

It was quite breezy today, so I used the top halves of two Cinela Leo wind protectors. Turns out that the Cinela fabric is pretty non-stick. The bond with the red gaffer tape in the photo works, but barely, and ordinary packing tape turned out to be worse. I'll try medical/bandaid tape next.

The important thing is that the Leo halves worked really well, no fur needed.

IMG_0488.jpeg (136.38 KiB) Viewed 26811 times

I spent some time tonight using Logic Pro X and iZotope RX to play with some WAVE files recorded with the Neumann KU100 mike. Sennheiser's AMBEO Orbit plugin offers several tools for manipulating the width of the sound field and for localisation of sounds in horizontal and vertical space. The plugin user manual contains some helpful advice on both the mike and the plugin. Interestingly, Sennheiser recommends mixing with open-back headphones rather than speakers. That makes sense, but it is highly unorthodox. The manual mentions Sennheiser's own, popular HD 650 headphones, but I have, and will use, Beyerdynamic's DT 1990 Pros.

Speaking of Logic, Apple released version 10.5 today. It is apparently a major update, both to Logic proper and Logic Remote for the iPad. Buried in the release notes is a reference to improvements to XML/video imports from Final Cut Pro X. The usual blogs should have details over the next couple of days. As always, the update is free.