Pyxis 12K

C'mon, Grant, nobody cares about these routers and switches and converters that keep BMD in business - get to the cameras.

The Constellation one looks like something AI would make =) when it doesn't understand the prompt.

Pyxis 12K announced at $4995.

Curious if the sensor readout times are the same on the Pyxis 12K and the Ursa Cine 12K. Would be helpful for VFX.

Curious if the sensor readout times are the same on the Pyxis 12K and the Ursa Cine 12K. Would be helpful for VFX.

No they are not.

There’s a reason for the difference. A hint is the maximum frame rate. Compare the numbers of open gate maximum frame rate for each camera (not the number on the poster)

JB

Hi JB

Thanks for always jumping in to clarify with these product launches. Comparing the frame rates seems 40FPS vs 80FPS at 12 Open Gate and 72 vs 144. Does half the framerate indicate double the readout speed? That would be a very respectable 13 ms at 8K (Alexa level), whereas the 12K could see some rolling shutter at 25 ms.

Have you filmed with the new body already? If so, any other takeaways? While I don't need HFR the Ursa Cine offers, a fast readout speed would be nice for reasonable rolling shutter.

I guess we'll have to wait for the Captain to add them to his list, but would be amazing to get an early indication here, if there is anyone no longer unter embargo (:

Ah, rolling shutter. Yes, that’s the question I hope to see answered as I would almost always be shooting in 8k. If it’s closer to 8ms, that would be great, but if it’s comparable to the Pyxis 6k, I may opt for the Cine 12k.

Hi JB

Thanks for always jumping in to clarify with these product launches. Comparing the frame rates seems 40FPS vs 80FPS at 12 Open Gate and 72 vs 144. Does half the framerate indicate double the readout speed? That would be a very respectable 13 ms at 8K (Alexa level), whereas the 12K could see some rolling shutter at 25 ms.

Have you filmed with the new body already? If so, any other takeaways? While I don't need HFR the Ursa Cine offers, a fast readout speed would be nice for reasonable rolling shutter.

I guess we'll have to wait for the Captain to add them to his list, but would be amazing to get an early indication here, if there is anyone no longer unter embargo (:

I’ll let BMD post the numbers.

Look and compare the already published numbers of the 4.6k G2 where they doubled the frame rate of the OG 4.6k and see what happened to the rs numbers.

Expect the same.

JB

Ok thanks JB for all but confirming my theory then - half framerate double the readout speed

Honestly 13 ms is more than enough for me coming from a Pocket 6K Pro and is likely the mode I will be working in most of the time. And its good to be aware of rolling shutter artifacts in 12K mode, should it be needed.

I started a new thread for this, not wanting to go to off-topic here, but I'll mention it anyway: JB what is your experience regarding the dynamic range shift between 12k and 8k/4k on the Ursa Cine? Because that seems to stay the same on the new Pyxis 12K.

I asked Microsoft copilot based on the open gate resolution and Max frame rate and it said with a max frame rate of 72 that the rolling shutter amount would be about **13.89 milliseconds**.

Most people won't be shooting Open Gate.

No they are not.

There’s a reason for the difference. A hint is the maximum frame rate. Compare the numbers of open gate maximum frame rate for each camera (not the number on the poster)

JB

Hey John long time lurker first time poster but are you sure about this tidbit? Would love to get some actual confirmation thats not just look at the framerates. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt sensor readout a characteristic of the sensor not the processing pipeline? We dont see the readout get much slower when recording in the lower framerates of ursa cine 12k lf like 24fps for example. What you're suggesting would mean that either the sensor architecture has changed for the pyxis compared to the ursa 12k. Or it would go against the usual trend of what happens when the processor is too weak for the full readout of the sensor like an xh2s for example. Have you filmed using the body and noticed more rolling shutter compared to the ursa 12k or are you just going off the framerates? Please confirm, it would really help me decide whether I should save up more for the full fledged ursa cine. Thanks in advance. P

I asked Microsoft copilot based on the open gate resolution and Max frame rate and it said with a max frame rate of 72 that the rolling shutter amount would be about **13.89 milliseconds**.

That's the longest the readout can be to achieve that frame rate: 1000ms / 72fps. However the actually readout speed is usually a little faster than the max frame rate suggests. I would assume that the frame rate limit comes from recording media limitations or limits on the max power draw and not as a result of the readout actually being slower than on the Cine 12K.

I mean 8K Open Gate is going to still be a better sensor readout than the PYXIS 6K, so it's a win in my book. And, it's going to still have far better high frame rates than the PYXIS 6K when in 8K mode. So definitely a better camera already.

The only thing missing for me is the internal ND. So I'll happily wait for a while. I have a friend who will buy it. So I'll just bring them on to shoots when I need a B-Cam to my URSA Cine 12K. I'm still hoping for an URSA Cine Mini in the UMP body design with a few changes to match the UCine upgrades for another option.

Imagine an URSA Cine 12K, URSA Cine Mini 12K, and PYXIS 12K lineup of options. That would be pretty awesome. I'd even be happy with an URSA Cine Mini being 14V Gold or V-Mount battery options with the same frame rates as the PYXIS 12K. But it gets internal ND and some other features from the URSA Mini Pro bodies.

max power draw and not as a result of the readout actually being slower than on the Cine 12K.

You don’t get something for nothing. It’s cooling that means it has to be slower. Smaller body = harder to cool. Not media speed.

It is a slower RS than the Ursa Cine. It’s not that it’s bad. But it’s a different implementation.

JB

Tim, I may be proven wrong at NAB2026, but it looks to me that the Cine Mini 12K you were looking for has been released at NAB2025. It’s called the Pyxis 12K. I’m very happy with that new camera for my purposes.

I would shoot mostly 9K 17:9 after I acquire the DZOfilm Tango 18-90mm. Of course 8K recording is also doable with the zoom and my primes.

[Kristian Lam]

Hook will post it later in the thread where we list all the RS times but this is currently what we have for 8K modes:

Code: Select all

8K 3:2 Open Gate             13.51
8K 16:9                      11.61
8K 17:9                      10.89                 
8K 2.4:1                      8.59
8K 6:5                       13.51


Thank you Kristian! Clears it up and shows that half the framerate roughly double the readout speed. Thanks!

Hook will post it later in the thread where we list all the RS times but this is currently what we have for 8K modes:

Code: Select all

8K 3:2 Open Gate             13.51
8K 16:9                      11.61
8K 17:9                      10.89                 
8K 2.4:1                      8.59
8K 6:5                       13.51


And these are really great numbers compared to any other cameras out there shooting 8k at this price point.

JB

Most people won't be shooting Open Gate.

If you don't shoot 12k open gate, and you are getting the non-cropped frame size, then you are skipping or binning. That's where the faster readout comes from. Since the sensels are only 2.9µ, it's not ideal to be wasting sensitivity imo.

Personally, I think the Cine 12K makes more sense even with a higher price. That too, the benefit may not be the sensor readout as could be the write speed limitation of the memory.

Man, I know they are great RS numbers for this little guy, but I think about how much I enjoyed the motion of my UMPG2 w/ ~8ms of rolling shutter.
I’m sure I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the Pyxis 12k and the Cine 12k, but it does give me pause.

Dang it. I was so close to pulling the trigger on an L Mount Pyxis 12k!
I’ll probably fold and get one, but I feel like I want the next camera I buy to last me for a very long time instead of jumping to the 6kFF/Pyxis that is more limiting in RS/DR/Low light.

BMD f'in knocked it out of the park with camera updates. All around.

Super impressed, super happy to add the Pyxis 12K to my shopping cart, and super ready to jettison the crappy Sony interface I've been suffering for the past few years.

I can’t believe they actually made it!

Pretty sure, like Adam said, this will be our next/last camera

I feel like I already know the answer to this, but even if we have all EF lenses, is L mount still the way to go?

Thanks guys

I can’t believe they actually made it!

Pretty sure, like Adam said, this will be our next/last camera

I feel like I already know the answer to this, but even if we have all EF lenses, is L mount still the way to go?

Thanks guys

I would still go L mount for the fact that I can run FD lenses, PL adapter w/ NDs, and EF adapters

This camera looks fantastic, count me in for a pre-order.

One feature I'd like to see is in-sensor scaling for S35 (6K/3K - although admittedly I probably wouldn't use the latter) for lower data rates with S35 lenses. Currently it looks like you'd save space over the 9K mode by shooting 8K with a vignette and cropping in post.

That would also give more options for rolling shutter and frame rate - maybe 6.6ms/144fps at 6K 2.4:1 (although I guess if you shot 8K and cropped into S35 you'd have the same effective rolling shutter).

Confirmed. Autofocus is only for L Mount.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My follow up to this would be if you have the L mount camera with an EF lens adapter, will the autofocus work with that setup?

Confirmed. Autofocus is only for L Mount.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably not and at best marginally ... if you need AF use the "native mount lens" that BM supports ... expect this first iteration of AF to be adequate ... less than stellar ... and probably nothing you want to hang
your reputation on ....

Of course. I would just use it to film myself.

Probably not and at best marginally ... if you need AF use the "native mount lens" that BM supports ... expect this first iteration of AF to be adequate ... less than stellar ... and probably nothing you want to hang
your reputation on ....

Hook will post it later in the thread where we list all the RS times but this is currently what we have for 8K modes:

Code: Select all

8K 3:2 Open Gate             13.51
8K 16:9                      11.61
8K 17:9                      10.89                 
8K 2.4:1                      8.59
8K 6:5                       13.51


And these are really great numbers compared to any other cameras out there shooting 8k at this price point.

JB

Yeah, these numbers are really good. Cool, nice to know. Thanks for the info!

I was hoping for the same rolling shutter specs as the Cine 12K but those numbers in 8K are totally usable.

I know nothing about developing cameras and if this is possible — so pardon my ignorance — but it would be amazing if possible to get a faster rolling shutter in 24fps.

Do we know if the 12K sensor is capable of autofocus? I know it's launching on the Cinema Camera 6K, but is the plan for it to reach the Pyxis 12K eventually?

I was hoping for the same rolling shutter specs as the Cine 12K but those numbers in 8K are totally usable.

I know nothing about developing cameras and if this is possible — so pardon my ignorance — but it would be amazing if possible to get a faster rolling shutter in 24fps.

Do we know if the 12K sensor is capable of autofocus? I know it's launching on the Cinema Camera 6K, but is the plan for it to reach the Pyxis 12K eventually?

I think it was mentioned in the launch video that autofocus would make it to all of the L-mount cameras.

Also, I don't think it relies on sensor tech like phase detection. I think it's a software solution, probably like the previous generations of Panasonic cameras that relied on contrast detection, but with the addition of AI for subject recognition. If this is the case, we'll need to see if it "hunts" to find focus and/or "pulses" to keep it.

Doing some quick math IMO the best recording options would be

9k 2.4:1 perf Super 35 - 11.6

8k/4k 16:9 - 11.6

8k/4k 17:9 - 10.9

8k/4k 2.4:1 - 8.6

Especially since in the first / 9k option you get the different DR distribution with the the extra stop in the highlights

And in all honesty, I could see myself shooting maybe exclusively in 4k 2.4:1 for the smaller files sizes and the best RS possible

The beginning of continuous auto focus for L-mount lenses is welcome news… for many shooters that will select the Pyxis cameras among others. I’d be willing to go to the L-mount version of Pyxis 12K but I’ve run into a roadblock. I need to use a wide-to-telephoto parfocal zoom lens with constant aperture for my event and music videos. My two favourite candidates are the Tokina 25-75mm and the DZOfilm -18-90mm, however both are PL mount versions. I could adapt them to an L-mount on the Pyxis, but I think the zooms would not support the auto focus capability of the Pyxis L-mount camera.

I’ve searched but not found a comparable zoom with native L-mount. I may need to stay with a Pyxis PL mount after all.

Does anyone know of a comparable zoom recommendation for the L-mount Pyxis camera?

Doing some quick math IMO the best recording options would be

9k 2.4:1 perf Super 35 - 11.6
…
8k/4k 2.4:1 - 8.6
…

That’s true in terms of rolling shutter when rolling shutter is truly a concern. But I’ve shot with longer rolling shutter speeds and never had a concern due to the subjects I’m shooting. If I knew I was shooting vehicles or motorbikes speeding through the frame, those recommendations are good, but I shoot people walking and don’t need to be that restrictive.

Since I think I am going to upgrade my Vespid Primes to the Vespid 2 Primes with /i Technology this year now that DZOFilm announced them, I would probably go with the PYXIS PL. As appealing as L Mount and autofocus is it doesn't fit my current set up. And, then I would use the same lenses across UC12K and P12K.

Although, I am curious. Does anyone know of a PL to L Mount adapter that has /i Technology data pass through to the L data connectors? If such a thing existed that is enough for me to go L Mount.

I still also want Blackmagic to put the 12K sensor in a still photography camera. So if they did that with L Mount that would prompt me to invest in L Mount glass for stills.

Great news BMD !

Now, this is real eyebrow raising, the biggest since original BMCC 2.5k,
I still think PYXIS 16K is coming for $20k...

This forum has come to life at all sudden.
This is really good news, game over, BMD has cinema market now

The beginning of continuous auto focus for L-mount lenses is welcome news… for many shooters that will select the Pyxis cameras among others. I’d be willing to go to the L-mount version of Pyxis 12K but I’ve run into a roadblock. I need to use a wide-to-telephoto parfocal zoom lens with constant aperture for my event and music videos. My two favourite candidates are the Tokina 25-75mm and the DZOfilm -18-90mm, however both are PL mount versions. I could adapt them to an L-mount on the Pyxis, but I think the zooms would not support the auto focus capability of the Pyxis L-mount camera.

I’ve searched but not found a comparable zoom with native L-mount. I may need to stay with a Pyxis PL mount after all.

Does anyone know of a comparable zoom recommendation for the L-mount Pyxis camera?

It hasn't been confirmed that L-mount bodies with EF adapters like the Blackmagic-sanctioned Sigma would get blocked from continuous auto-focus operation, but that would be a bad call (compared to letting us decide for ourselves, even if performance lags). Assuming common sense, there are excellent focus-by-wire EF cine zooms, including PZ.

This is designed for PL to L-mount on the Pyxis, but I don’t think it includes /i technology:

https://metabones.com/products/details/MB_SPPL-L-BT1

You would think $1,300 would get you something special for an adapter but…

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1621223-REG

For the few instances in which I would want autofocus (corporate style interviews), it would be totally worth just picking up a couple decent native L lenses. For anything where I'm really going to care about what lenses I'm using I'm going to want to manually focus anyway. The bigger drawback for me in terms of those use cases where I'd go for autofocus is that I'd want a smaller codec than braw. Braw is my favorite, but sometimes it's nice to just have a classic compressed hevc/avc type codec.

… there are excellent focus-by-wire EF cine zooms, including PZ.

Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind. I have looked at some EF cine zooms as well. I’m probably a six months to a year away from being able to make the purchase of a new zoom so not a panic. It’s an easy choice to go with PL mount but I’m rethinking that due to the possible inclusion of having continuous auto focus with tracking.

… it would be totally worth just picking up a couple decent native L lenses. For anything where I'm really going to care about what lenses I'm using I'm going to want to manually focus anyway...

Thanks, Joey. I’m often shooting in situations like theatrical performances where there’s no opportunity to stop recording to change a prime lens, ergo the wide to telephoto (3x to 5x) zoom is a great option to cover all the action or just a principal actor. I currently use a PD Movie thumb controller which I’ve had for several years to focus. I’ve been thinking about the DJI Focus Pro which has been generally praised. In-camera auto focus with tracking would be a ‘free’ option if it works well.

Hook will post it later in the thread where we list all the RS times but this is currently what we have for 8K modes:

Code: Select all

8K 3:2 Open Gate             13.51
8K 16:9                      11.61
8K 17:9                      10.89                 
8K 2.4:1                      8.59
8K 6:5                       13.51


These are fine. For handheld filimg I find there is a cut off point. The BMPCC4K at 4k was acceptable no higher than 16.2ms I'm fine with but BMPCC6K at 5.7k at 16.7ms was borderline acceptable but I have to be careful.

Most people won't be shooting Open Gate.

If you don't shoot 12k open gate, and you are getting the non-cropped frame size, then you are skipping or binning. That's where the faster readout comes from. Since the sensels are only 2.9µ, it's not ideal to be wasting sensitivity imo.

Personally, I think the Cine 12K makes more sense even with a higher price. That too, the benefit may not be the sensor readout as could be the write speed limitation of the memory.

I know the benefit of open gate but most people don't shoot in that mode and also not 12k unless they want to capture a few stills off a video.

All I can say is that I hope it has the same read-reset rolling shutter numbers as the UrsaCine12K and a Super16 crop mode. Looking forward to seeing the price.

Turns out that the price defies belief, in that it's a lot less expensive than you'd expect for a camera like that!

We could get faster sensor readout results with a 4K Super 16mm Mode on the cameras: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=218248

Potentially higher frame rates. The PYXIS 12K opens a lot of possibilities for this camera. Remember the current PYXIS 6K has a Super 16mm Window option in 2K.

PYXIS 12K opens up so many doors because the sensor is incredible.

I can’t believe they actually made it!

Pretty sure, like Adam said, this will be our next/last camera

I feel like I already know the answer to this, but even if we have all EF lenses, is L mount still the way to go?

Thanks guys

I would still go L mount for the fact that I can run FD lenses, PL adapter w/ NDs, and EF adapters

My concern about the L mount is having an adapter for my EF lens may affect AF tracking performance.

Update:

Waite, Did someone say the AF tracking will only work with L mount?

Yes, Kristian Lam, camera product manager I believe, confirmed L-mount was required.

[CaptainHook]

Hook will post it later in the thread where we list all the RS times

Updated.

[Kristian Lam]

My concern about the L mount is having an adapter for my EF lens may affect AF tracking performance.

Update:

Waite, Did someone say the AF tracking will only work with L mount?

It's an unknown at this point. The adapter will simply present itself as an unknown L-Mount lens and then do the translation from L to whatever lens you are adapting to.