What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostWed Dec 25, 2019 4:29 am

I purchased the camera yesterday and need to identify true manual focus lenses, in particular wide angle in full frame terms, that will work with it. Today, I successfully tried a Leica rangefinder 50mm lens via a Novoflex M-mount to Micro Four Thirds adapter. Over the next next few days, I'll be trying out several other Leica M-mount lenses, from 35mm to 135mm, hoping for similar success.

The Metabones Speed Booster adapter does not work with M-mount lenses, and I don't want to purchase one. I want to identify a full frame prime lens of 18mm-24mm that will work with the camera and not result in colour shift, which appears to be a problem, at least anecdotally, with full frame wide lenses generally, due to proximity to the sensor.

As far as I can determine, there are few if any standard native Micro Four Thirds lenses that are truly manual focus rather than fly by wire or employing some kind of clutch mechanism. I really want an ordinary manual focus lens, preferably with a filter thread of not more than 52mm. I'm thinking about trying a Zeiss Biogon 21mm f/2.8, which is available in M-mount.

Other suggestions, not necessarily M-mount?

Thanks
Last edited by robedge on Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

Brad Hurley

  • Posts: 1599
  • Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm
  • Location: Montréal

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostThu Dec 26, 2019 6:56 pm

robedge wrote:As far as I can determine, there are few if any standard native Micro Four Thirds lenses that are truly manual focus rather than fly by wire or employing some kind of clutch mechanism.


There are a number of cinema primes and zooms (manual focus, manual aperture/iris) with MFT mounts, including models from Meike, SLR Magic, Tokina, and Fujinon for example.
Resolve 16.1.2 Studio, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
Audio I/O: Sound Devices USBPre-2
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostThu Dec 26, 2019 8:22 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:
robedge wrote:There are a number of cinema primes and zooms (manual focus, manual aperture/iris) with MFT mounts, including models from Meike, SLR Magic, Tokina, and Fujinon for example.


Thanks. I’m interested in primes. I’m sure that the Fujinon zoom is great (I have a couple of Fuji lenses for 8x10), but at US$3300 plus $1300 for the camera there’s a serious question of whether I should just purchase a hybrid full frame camera and use my existing Leica lenses without adding anything. Indeed, at that point we’re $600 over the price of Panasonic’s new S1H and only $1400 below the cost of Leica’s own new SL2.

I’m afraid that I know next to nothing about these other companies or the quality of their lenses.

If anyone has a full frame 18mm-24mm that they are using without a Speed Booster and are happy with, and that isn’t causing colour issues, I’d love to know about it.
Last edited by robedge on Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 13753
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostThu Dec 26, 2019 8:27 pm

Perhaps the SLR Magic MicroPrime APO which has a few lenses already released and more to be added. They’re T1.5 I believe.

Busy cooking Boxing Day dinner for a party in half and hour, but I can provide more information later if you need it.
Rick Lang
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostThu Dec 26, 2019 8:54 pm

rick.lang wrote:Perhaps the SLR Magic MicroPrime APO which has a few lenses already released and more to be added. They’re T1.5 I believe.

Busy cooking Boxing Day dinner for a party in half and hour, but I can provide more information later if you need it.


Thanks very much.

I’d be doing Boxing Day myself, except I’m in NY where nobody knows what it is :)

Just checked the SLR Magic catalogue.

In their new MicroPrime CINE Micro Four Thirds series, the forthcoming (according to B&H) 21mm is T1.6 and the already released 18mm is T2.8.

Both would work, but the reason that I said that I’d prefer a filter thread of not more than 52mm is that I’m standardised to 52mm filters. These SLR Magic lenses are 82mm, which means purchasing and carrying around an additional set of ND filters, and very expensive ones at that.

However, they also have a HyperPrime Cine III Micro Four Thirds series, where there’s a 25mm T 0.95 lens with, as it happens, a 52mm filter thread. I kind of see 0.95 as a gimmick, but won’t rule it out.

Can anyone with hands-on experience with these SLR Magic lenses comment on their build and optical quality? B&H is selling the newer 18mm and 21mm lenses for $530. The HyperPrime 25mm is $400. My newest lens was made in 2004, so I’m not up on current lens prices, but the price of these, and some of the comments on the B&H site from purchasers, make me wonder whether they are in the “true good to be true” category.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 2:27 am

I think that I should clarify some things in light of the helpful comments from Brad Hurley and Rick Lang.

I am extremely comfortable with manual focus and that is the reason why I don’t care about criticisms of the camera’s autofocus performance. I would consider an autofocus lens, but with this camera they sound like they are more trouble than they are worth.

I intend to use this camera with my existing lenses, which are Leica M-mount rangefinder prime lenses ranging from 35mm to 135 mm. Before someone puts me in the “rich dentist” category, my most recent Leica lens was made in 1992. A Metabones Speed Booster is not an option because one won’t work with M-mount lenses.

In Micro Four Thirds terms, I am covered for 70mm to 270mm, but I have a hole at 35mm to 50mm. For the moment, I am not concerned about anything wider.

I want to fill the hole with a lens that will cut well with my Leica primes. Because wide lenses are problematic with rangefinder cameras (I still regard a 63 year old M3 as my main camera), and for financial reasons, I am not keen to purchase a wide Leica lens. I’m looking for an alternative. That’s why I’m considering the Zeiss 21mm lens mentioned in my first post. It is an old design (Biogon), but there’s a good chance that it will cut well with the Leicas.

On Sunday (maybe even tomorrow morning), I’ll take my Pocket 4K to B&H and try out the Zeiss. They have a couple in their “Used” department. Because the Zeiss lens is wide in full frame terms, I am concerned about colour shift and whether my M-mount to MFT adapter will result in a focusing issue. We’ll see. New, the lens is $1200, used is less, within my budget if it works. It’s also important that its 46mm filter thread will work with my filter standardisation to 52mm.

If I can’t make the Pocket 4K work the way that I envisage, the solution is to return it and wait until I have the funds to purchase a full frame camera and an Atomos recorder. On the upside, that would make it easy to use ProRes Raw. Blackmagic Raw does not work for me and Blackmagic has not made ProRes Raw available in the camera. That said, there are a lot of things that I like about the Pocket 4K if I can come up with something workable at 18mm-25mm (35mm-50mm full frame).

Looking forward to suggestions of options other than the Zeiss that I could also check out at B&H this weekend.

Thanks
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

MikeMeagher

  • Posts: 326
  • Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:21 pm
  • Location: Bellingham, WA. USA

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 3:53 am

For what its worth, I use several vintage Nikkor F mount lenses, which I use with my BMPCC4K. I use the simple, dumb metabones adapter which fits well and is well made. All of these lenses are manual focus, manual aperature, and some have amazing glass if you get the right lens.

The SLR Magic lenses are mechanical focus, no fly by wire.
Mike Meagher Filmmaker
Win10 64 pro I7 6core ASUS X99 64 GB RAM
M.2 system drive.
2x SSDs in Raid0 cache.
3x 7200 HHDs in raid0 as video source storage
Two EVGA1080TI cards 422.19 Studio
Decklink MiniM 15.1 4K HDMI to BENQ WS271
Resolve 16.1 studio
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 4:06 am

MikeMeagher wrote:For what its worth, I use several vintage Nikkor F mount lenses, which I use with my BMPCC4K. I use the simple, dumb metabones adapter which fits well and is well made. All of these lenses are manual focus, manual aperature, and some have amazing glass if you get the right lens.

The SLR Magic lenses are mechanical focus, no fly by wire.


Hi Mike,

Thanks. I’d appreciate knowing the model of a Nikkor F between, say, 15mm-25mm that you have used successfully with the camera. I have a pretty high regard for the old Nikkor manual lenses. Indeed, I have an old but excellent 55mm Micro-Nikkor* that I use with my Leica M240 digital camera.

Also, what’s your view on these SLR Magic lenses, especially having regard to what I have in mind (just read your thread on one from the same series as the 25mm that I mentioned above). Would you go Nikkor or SLR Magic?

* Which is a macro lens, for the information of those who aren’t familiar with Nikon’s refusal to use the same terminology as everybody else. This particular lens, a Nikkor classic, also works really well as a standard lens.
Last edited by robedge on Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 13753
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 4:12 am

Apologies Rob, I was forgetting about your desire to stick to a maximum filter screw on 52mm thread.

I tried to standardize on 82mm and have all the filters I could ever use and then along came the Tokina CinemaATX 11-20mm with 86mm threads! I’m sticking with just the 2/4/6 stop 86mm as I have rectangular filters I can use if needed. It’s not easy to ‘standardize’ when cameras and lenses continue to evolve. But I understand if now is not the time to change.

Shame if you return the BMPCC4K as I don’t want to let go of mine. I’m hoping you find the right lenses on the weekend at B&H Photo. The camera is better than originally described and should continue to evolve as I suspect between the BMPCC4K and the BMPCC6K, sales will dwarf the original very popular BMPCC. BRAW is a game changer as they say.
Rick Lang
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 4:46 am

Hi Rick,

I trust that your Boxing Day dinner went well. Just heard from my brother, also in Victoria, who says that there’s a spot of rain but otherwise balmy, or as close to balmy as winter gets.

Thanks for your comments.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 13753
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 4:53 am

We would have had a white Christmas if only the temperature was ten degrees colder! We had to settle for rain... again. Today was a pleasant day in paradise though. Yes, thanks, Boxing Day dinner went well with family and friends.
Rick Lang
Offline

Brad Hurley

  • Posts: 1599
  • Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm
  • Location: Montréal

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 11:38 am

robedge wrote:If I can’t make the Pocket 4K work the way that I envisage, the solution is to return it and wait until I have the funds to purchase a full frame camera and an Atomos recorder. On the upside, that would make it easy to use ProRes Raw. Blackmagic Raw does not work for me and Blackmagic has not made ProRes Raw available in the camera.


I take it that you are editing in Final Cut Pro X, since Blackmagic Raw processing is available in the only other NLE (Premiere) that has announced support for Prores Raw. If so, and if you're not in a rush, you might want to wait and see if FCPX 10.5 offers Blackmagic Raw support. A lot of people are optimistic that Blackmagic Raw support will come to FCPX, possibly in 2020, either natively or via a plugin. I doubt BMD would make Prores Raw available in its cameras; there's no incentive for them to do it that I can see, but there's plenty of incentive for Apple to work with BMD to make Blackmagic Raw available in FCPX. Lots of people own Pocket 4k, 6k, and Ursa G2 cameras, and the subset of those who use Final Cut are forced to use Resolve for BRAW processing; some of them might end up defecting to Resolve altogether to simplify the workflow. So it's in Apple's interest to work with BMD to make BRAW available in Final Cut.

If you're going to B&H, you might as well take the opportunity to try as many lenses as you can (at least those that meet your criteria) rather than just the one you mentioned.
Resolve 16.1.2 Studio, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
Audio I/O: Sound Devices USBPre-2
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 2573
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 1:47 pm

As a Leica M shooter myself, I think you’re going to find M mount lenses annoying.

The biggest issue is that you have a minimum focus of generally 7 feet.

You’re asking for wide lenses so perhaps that’s not a problem.

Wide lenses are always hard to do well.

Let me ask you.

Why do you want to go through a speedbooster ?

Why do they have to be 135 format / full frame ?

Wide and good and manual / cine style is never cheap and it feels like you’re trying to go hybrid (stills) over cine lenses but want cine lens features.

The Olympus PRO 1.2 17mm is a stunning lens and has a mechanical focus action with hard stops. Maybe that’s a good compromise ? Though it is 62mm

I shot a lot of the original launch footage for this camera with one and I think they’re very underrated.

If you go for native M4/3 then look up Veydra / Meike, they have a nice wide cine primes. As I mentioned SLR Magic also do some nice primes. There’s a 10mm T2.1 and the Microprimes as well.

You’re going to have to get past the 52mm limitation at the very least I think if you want this to work.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Currently - Ontario Canada
Offline

Brad Hurley

  • Posts: 1599
  • Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm
  • Location: Montréal

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 3:12 pm

John Brawley wrote:You’re going to have to get past the 52mm limitation at the very least I think if you want this to work.


I agree, that's a pretty severe constraint. If I had to do it over again, I would forego screw-in filters altogether and go with square or rectangular (e.g., 4 x 5.65") cinema filters for use with a holder or matte box. Those filters are quite expensive, but then you can get whatever lenses you want without worrying about filter compatibility.

The alternative of course is to choose the largest screw-in filter size that's affordable for you and get step-up rings for your lenses. I have done this with 77mm filters but in retrospect should have gone even larger.
Resolve 16.1.2 Studio, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
Audio I/O: Sound Devices USBPre-2
Offline

Iain Bason

  • Posts: 62
  • Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:57 am
  • Real Name: Iain Bason

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 3:41 pm

John Brawley wrote:If you go for native M4/3 then look up Veydra / Meike, they have a nice wide cine primes. As I mentioned SLR Magic also do some nice primes. There’s a 10mm T2.1 and the Microprimes as well.

You’re going to have to get past the 52mm limitation at the very least I think if you want this to work.

JB


I have the Meike 25mm, and although its screw thread is 82mm (if I remember correctly) the actual glass on the front is much smaller. Might it be possible to use a step down ring with a lens like this?
Offline
User avatar

Fabián Aguirre

  • Posts: 91
  • Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:58 am
  • Location: Mill Valley, California

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 4:20 pm

I switched to MFT lenses for our two pockets a while back (always used speedboosters with EF lenses before with our original pockets and micros) and have been really happy so far. We have a full set of Voigtlander Noktons and spent Christmas with the 10mm glued to my camera. As the most expensive lens in the set, I admit I hadn’t really used it much given just how wide it is, but I have always loved wider focal lenghts in general (especially 18mm in cinema) and deeper focus (see Jean Pierre Jeunet). Looking at the dailies from the trip has ensured the 10mm stays out of the pelican more often.

The Voigtlanders are definitely too soft wide open for me (they tend to bloom in a way I haven’t found a use for), but at f1.4, they are gorgeous. They are also heavy, all-metal, lenses and I’ve added custom focus gears, which Duclos Lenses also do as a modification.

Good luck

4218423A-7C64-4681-A797-C1BA2140D9D0.jpeg
4218423A-7C64-4681-A797-C1BA2140D9D0.jpeg (66.17 KiB) Viewed 1899 times


4B92EFF2-02D1-4E6D-96CA-D579BA82FB68.jpeg
4B92EFF2-02D1-4E6D-96CA-D579BA82FB68.jpeg (77.85 KiB) Viewed 1899 times


565FDB3E-F32D-4BA6-AACC-B2A29D59C80D.jpeg
565FDB3E-F32D-4BA6-AACC-B2A29D59C80D.jpeg (74.02 KiB) Viewed 1899 times
Fabián Aguirre
Cinematographer / Steadicam Operator
www.theunderstory.co
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 6:50 pm

Fabián Aguirre wrote:I switched to MFT lenses for our two pockets a while back ...


Hi Fabián,

Thanks, I enjoyed your showreel and I’ll be watching certain of the full videos on your site.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

Fabián Aguirre

  • Posts: 91
  • Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:58 am
  • Location: Mill Valley, California

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 7:11 pm

robedge wrote:
Fabián Aguirre wrote:I switched to MFT lenses for our two pockets a while back ...


Hi Fabián,

Thanks, I enjoyed your showreel and I’ll be watching certain of the full videos on your site.


Hi Rob,

Thanks for checking out the reel— admittedly, I haven’t updated it in a couple years, but I’m glad to hear you enjoyed it.

I see you also shoot on film! My only stills camera these days is a Hasselblad 500 cm, and it’s always such a joy to use. A sort of respite from the all-consuming features (and conveniences) of the digital age. I’d love to check out your work if you feel inclined to share.

Happy holidays
Fabián Aguirre
Cinematographer / Steadicam Operator
www.theunderstory.co
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 8:04 pm

John Brawley wrote:As a Leica M shooter myself, I think you’re going to find M mount lenses annoying.

The biggest issue is that you have a minimum focus of generally 7 feet.

You’re asking for wide lenses so perhaps that’s not a problem.

Wide lenses are always hard to do well.

Let me ask you.

Why do you want to go through a speedbooster ?

Why do they have to be 135 format / full frame ?

Wide and good and manual / cine style is never cheap and it feels like you’re trying to go hybrid (stills) over cine lenses but want cine lens features.

The Olympus PRO 1.2 17mm is a stunning lens and has a mechanical focus action with hard stops. Maybe that’s a good compromise ? Though it is 62mm

I shot a lot of the original launch footage for this camera with one and I think they’re very underrated.

If you go for native M4/3 then look up Veydra / Meike, they have a nice wide cine primes. As I mentioned SLR Magic also do some nice primes. There’s a 10mm T2.1 and the Microprimes as well.

You’re going to have to get past the 52mm limitation at the very least I think if you want this to work.

JB


Thanks very much for taking the time to offer suggestions, especially mentioning the Olympus Pro lenses.

I’m not wedded to full frame lenses, and I noted in an earlier post that I’m not only not interested in a Speed Booster, it won’t even work on M-mount lenses.

That said, I’m not going to start supplementing the lenses that I already own until it’s clear through use of the Pocket 4K that I should. I’ve now tried the Leica 35mm, 50mm and 90mm and I’m pretty sure that they will be useful. I have a clear hole on the widish/normal end, and as you point out a lens with a short minimum focus distance would be extremely helpful. Having watched the video that you made with the Olympus Pro lenses, and some overview videos on the three lenses in the series, the 17mm may be exactly what I need right now. It appears that the manual focus may work well. Also, while I’m already set up for closeup work, the 17mm’s minimum focus distance of 20cm is extremely attractive.

Do you happen to have any views on Fujinon’s MK 18mm-55mm T2.9? I don’t want to get ahead of myself, but I’m going to have a look at this lens as well this weekend.

Thanks again.

P.S. If others have experience with the Fujinon lens, please comment.
Last edited by robedge on Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 13753
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 8:34 pm

Fujinon MK 18-55mm T2.9 is the next lens I hope to purchase in 2020 for the BMPCC4K. A true cine lens and takes 82mm screw-on filters.
Rick Lang
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 9:07 pm

Fabián Aguirre wrote:I see you also shoot on film! My only stills camera these days is a Hasselblad 500 cm, and it’s always such a joy to use. A sort of respite from the all-consuming features (and conveniences) of the digital age. I’d love to check out your work if you feel inclined to share.


When I decided to check out the Pocket 4K, one of the complaints that kept coming up was that the camera body is “plasticky”. To my regret, I’ve never owned a Hasselblad, but these complaints kept reminding me of my Mamiya 7II medium format rangefinder, also known as the Texas Leica. The Mamiya is also “plasticky”; indeed that was one of the regular complaints about it. Several years after having been discontinued, it’s now becoming a cult camera. “Plasticky” is not high on the list of things that I worry about.

These days, I mostly shoot, and then process and contact print, 4x5 and 8x10. I also sometimes process, enlarge and print Leica M3 and Mamiya negatives. What’s a scanner?

So what am I doing with a Pocket 4K? I purchased one to make a film about my New York neighbourhood, and a friend who is opening a restaurant is keen on documenting it and making some promotional videos. For unrelated reasons, I know what I’m doing on the sound side, but on the filming side I definitely feel like I’m in the deep end.

Cheers
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 13753
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 9:57 pm

robedge wrote:... So what am I doing with a Pocket 4K? I purchased it to make a film about my New York neighbourhood, and a friend who is opening a restaurant is keen on documenting it and making some promotional videos. For unrelated reasons, I know what I’m doing on the sound side, but on the filming side I definitely feel like I’m in the deep end.

Cheers


Rob, you have a golden opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. You can make a promotional video and you can make a documentary. That’s two different things served by two different deliverables. I’d definitely embrace both!
Rick Lang
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostFri Dec 27, 2019 10:10 pm

rick.lang wrote:
robedge wrote:Rob, you have a golden opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. You can make a promotional video and you can make a documentary. That’s two different things served by two different deliverables. I’d definitely embrace both!


Yes, the restaurant will be in the same neighbourhood that I’m making the film about. There are some obvious opportunities for overlap, certainly on B roll. Unfortunately, I am not the first person to think about making a film about my neighbourhood. Alfred Hitchcock, Joshua Marston and Frederick Wiseman beat me to it :)

I actually plan to start with shooting a lot of B roll, just as a way to get familiar with the camera and to acquire a good base for ambient sound. Next week I hope to figure out how to film the NY subway without it being a nonstop exercise in rolling shutter.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 3:14 am

I’ve set aside time to visit B&H on Sunday to check out some lenses and make some decisions.

I’d like to thank Fabián Aguirre, Iain Bason, John Brawley, Brad Hurley, Rick Lang and Mike Meagher for their comments and suggestions.

Their posts have been extremely helpful in making clear what my options are, which were very unclear to me when I started this thread.

The first option, probably the sensible one, is to order the new Leica SL2 and use it with my current Leica lenses and some additional lenses that I use via an adapter. There are a lot of things that are attractive about this camera, starting with in-body stabilisation. I can defray the cost by selling my Leica M240. The Pocket 4K would be returned, its price credited against the SL2 order. For me, what’s interesting is that the SL2 wasn’t even something that I was thinking about when I started this thread.

My second option is to keep the Pocket 4K, but recognise that this means really buying into Micro Four Thirds as a format, thinking in more “ciné” terms when it comes to lenses and essentially committing to a significant investment in MFT parallel to my current camera system, which I have no intention of giving up. This is not financially sensible, although I haven’t ruled it out. With this option in mind, I’ll be looking both at some prime lenses, including John Brawley’s suggestion of the Olympus Pro 17mm, and Fujinon’s MK 18mm-55mm. I have a feeling that if I’m going to go down this road, the Fujinon, despite the US$3300 cost, is probably the most sensible and ultimately painless way to do it.

Cheers and thanks everyone for your input. It really has helped clarify my thinking.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 7201
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 9:14 am

Hmm, Leica SL2? For filming? Are you sure?
It will be a fantastic stills camera for sure, but for any film speeds beyond 30 fps it seems to be line skipping like the first filming Canon 5D, looking awful.

Some claim it looks better if you use it in APS-C crop mode, but where is the point of full frame then?

BTW, the Sigma fp (which might have a few things in common) is doing similar crap when using HD. But, other than the SL2, it has RAW recording.
Resolve Studio 16.2.2 and Fusion Studio under MacOS Mojave 10.14.6
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM and 32 GB RAM
Mac mini 16 GB RAM plus eGFX Breakway Radeon RX 580
Offline

Brad Hurley

  • Posts: 1599
  • Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm
  • Location: Montréal

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 11:41 am

Looking at the sound-recording equipment (microphones, recorder) you have listed in your signature, as well as your photography equipment, you clearly have high aesthetic standards. I think of all the options you are considering, the one that has the highest potential of meeting those standards is to keep the BMPCC 4K and invest in some new lenses. You don't necessarily have to shoot in BRAW but it'll give you the most flexibility, and you really should consider DaVinci Resolve for color correction at least if not your entire workflow.

Will you be wearing all the hats on your projects (cinematographer, location sound recorder, editor, audio engineer, and colorist)? I'm just trying to understand your statement that Blackmagic Raw (BRAW) won't work for you but Prores Raw would, which I assume either means you plan to use Final Cut or you will hand off the footage to an editor who uses Final Cut. You or your editor can of course "develop" your BRAW footage in Resolve and use Resolve to generate Prores files for Final Cut. Fabian Aguirre, who posted above, uses that same workflow. But even though Final Cut now has very good color correction/grading tools built in, I would urge you to consider Resolve for color correction and grading, because you'll likely see a big difference. The main caveat with Resolve is that it is more demanding in terms of hardware requirements whereas Final Cut is optimized for the Mac and you can get by with a lower-spec Mac more easily than you can in Resolve.
Resolve 16.1.2 Studio, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
Audio I/O: Sound Devices USBPre-2
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 2:24 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Hmm, Leica SL2? For filming? Are you sure?
It will be a fantastic stills camera for sure, but for any film speeds beyond 30 fps it seems to be line skipping like the first filming Canon 5D, looking awful.

Some claim it looks better if you use it in APS-C crop mode, but where is the point of full frame then?


Thanks, I’m aware of the discussion around full frame vs Super35/APS-C.

The point is that I don’t have to purchase new lenses (except for one 20-24mm for Super35/APS-C), can shoot both video and stills from the same camera, have in-body stabilisation and can shoot ProRes Raw if I want with an Atomos recorder.

That said, I’m going to B&H tomorrow precisely because I haven’t ruled out staying with the Pocket 4K. It’s just that my current thinking on benefits vs cost doesn’t favour it.
Last edited by robedge on Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 2:36 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:I'm just trying to understand your statement that Blackmagic Raw (BRAW) won't work for you but Prores Raw would, which I assume either means you plan to use Final Cut or you will hand off the footage to an editor who uses Final Cut. You or your editor can of course "develop" your BRAW footage in Resolve and use Resolve to generate Prores files for Final Cut. Fabian Aguirre, who posted above, uses that same workflow. But even though Final Cut now has very good color correction/grading tools built in, I would urge you to consider Resolve for color correction and grading, because you'll likely see a big difference. The main caveat with Resolve is that it is more demanding in terms of hardware requirements whereas Final Cut is optimized for the Mac and you can get by with a lower-spec Mac more easily than you can in Resolve.


The person who will be handling colour and I have decided to go with ProRes. This being a Blackmagic forum, a discussion about the reasons is likely to result in an unproductive visit down a rabbit hole :)
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 2573
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 2:54 pm

robedge wrote:
Brad Hurley wrote:I'm just trying to understand your statement that Blackmagic Raw (BRAW) won't work for you but Prores Raw would, which I assume either means you plan to use Final Cut or you will hand off the footage to an editor who uses Final Cut. You or your editor can of course "develop" your BRAW footage in Resolve and use Resolve to generate Prores files for Final Cut. Fabian Aguirre, who posted above, uses that same workflow. But even though Final Cut now has very good color correction/grading tools built in, I would urge you to consider Resolve for color correction and grading, because you'll likely see a big difference. The main caveat with Resolve is that it is more demanding in terms of hardware requirements whereas Final Cut is optimized for the Mac and you can get by with a lower-spec Mac more easily than you can in Resolve.


The person who will be handling colour and I have decided to go with ProRes. This being a Blackmagic forum, a discussion about the reasons is likely to result in an unproductive visit down a rabbit hole :)



It’s worth looking at your choice here.

ProRes and ProRes RAW are quite different and yet are very similar in many ways.

I’m a huge big fan of ProRes. It’s incredibly robust as a codec and in very wide use at all tiers of production.

I would guess the majority of US Network TV drama is shot ProRes still.

ProRes RAW is a new ProRes variant that has yet to find much acceptance.

No camera currently shoots ProRes RAW internally.

Only some cameras support RAW output to ProRes RAW. I haven’t seen any indication the SL2 is one that will do some by the way.

And, it forces you to have an expensive external recorder. Something that has to be powered and rigged and the extra business of cables etc to wrangle. Not really elegant.

Only FCP supports it for editing and post. And I doubt anyone will want to colour grade in FCP.

So you might THINK you have the advantage of RAW but right now you can’t really make much use of that inferred RAW workflow because FCP isn’t a great finishing platform.

Last time I loaded some demo ProRes RAW files in FCP you couldn’t even nominate a white balance in Kelvin. It was just a slider for cooler or warmer. Not any different to regular ProRes really.

For many, ProRes is good enough, including multi million dollar shows.

I think there’s a lot of other choices that you can make that are impactful on your end result before forcing ProRes RAW because of “RAW”

I haven’t used the Fuji zoom but they are long renowned for making great lenses and I’m sure this wouldn’t be any different.

Again, it depends what you’re wanting. It’s a cine style lens, very good value. If you thought leica lenses were expensive try pricing some fast cine primes or zooms.

So let’s go back to what you’re trying to do.

You want to make an observational doco about your friends eatery in NY (I’m here right now for a week co-incidentally) and to be able to use it for marketing as well ?

It’s natural to want to have dual purpose equipment but at some point you’re wanting to cross into “serious”. As the owner operator you can make choices about the work arounds that this kind of work can bring. It sounds like you’re working by yourself so it has to also be manageable with what you can do yourself.

While gear is always important you have to be able to make it work. To be able to adapt while your shooting, be flexible to follow things as they develop. If you’re kludging around with gear that’s doing multiple things it can sometimes also just get in your way.

For example, running 2 battery systems for your SL2 and Atomos recorder (and like I said, pretty sure the SL2 doesn’t output RAWanyway)

I find with doco I want simple and reliable. Primes will work as long as you won’t get caught with your pants down if something unexpected happens. You can’t be changing lenses in the middle of a critical moment.

All of these choices are so much more important than ProRes Vs ProRes RAW.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Currently - Ontario Canada
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 4:02 pm

John Brawley wrote:

It’s worth looking at your choice here.

ProRes and ProRes RAW are quite different and yet are very similar in many ways.

I’m a huge big fan of ProRes. It’s incredibly robust as a codec and in very wide use at all tiers of production.

I would guess the majority of US Network TV drama is shot ProRes still.

ProRes RAW is a new ProRes variant that has yet to find much acceptance.

No camera currently shoots ProRes RAW internally.

Only some cameras support RAW output to ProRes RAW. I haven’t seen any indication the SL2 is one that will do some by the way.

And, it forces you to have an expensive external recorder. Something that has to be powered and rigged and the extra business of cables etc to wrangle. Not really elegant.

Only FCP supports it for editing and post. And I doubt anyone will want to colour grade in FCP.

So you might THINK you have the advantage of RAW but right now you can’t really make much use of that inferred RAW workflow because FCP isn’t a great finishing platform.

Last time I loaded some demo ProRes RAW files in FCP you couldn’t even nominate a white balance in Kelvin. It was just a slider for cooler or warmer. Not any different to regular ProRes really.

For many, ProRes is good enough, including multi million dollar shows.

I think there’s a lot of other choices that you can make that are impactful on your end result before forcing ProRes RAW because of “RAW”

I haven’t used the Fuji zoom but they are long renowned for making great lenses and I’m sure this wouldn’t be any different.

Again, it depends what you’re wanting. It’s a cine style lens, very good value. If you thought leica lenses were expensive try pricing some fast cine primes or zooms.

So let’s go back to what you’re trying to do.

You want to make an observational doco about your friends eatery in NY (I’m here right now for a week co-incidentally) and to be able to use it for marketing as well ?

It’s natural to want to have dual purpose equipment but at some point you’re wanting to cross into “serious”. As the owner operator you can make choices about the work arounds that this kind of work can bring. It sounds like you’re working by yourself so it has to also be manageable with what you can do yourself.

While gear is always important you have to be able to make it work. To be able to adapt while your shooting, be flexible to follow things as they develop. If you’re kludging around with gear that’s doing multiple things it can sometimes also just get in your way.

For example, running 2 battery systems for your SL2 and Atomos recorder (and like I said, pretty sure the SL2 doesn’t output RAWanyway)

I find with doco I want simple and reliable. Primes will work as long as you won’t get caught with your pants down if something unexpected happens. You can’t be changing lenses in the middle of a critical moment.

All of these choices are so much more important than ProRes Vs ProRes RAW.

JB


Thanks John,

I want to express my appreciation for your comments. Given your background and expertise, I think that it’s very generous.

I am way beyond making a decision about what camera to use based on available codecs. We’ve decided to go with ProRes for editing, but there has been no decision about recording Raw. That’s why I said that the SL2 can be used to record Raw to an Atomos “if I want”.

I might mention, having recorded a lot of Sony RX0 footage into a Sound Devices PIX-E5H, that I found the PIX-E5H quite manageable by treating it as a recorder rather than as a monitor. For example, the way to get 4K footage out of the original RX0* on a motorbike in Sicily is to stick the external recorder on a back rack or pannier and out of the way :) I’ve also stashed the recorder on a belt clip and on the outside (have to watch ventilation) of a backpack. That said, you are right that the SL2 will not record Raw internally, but Raw is just not high on my list of priorities.

I think that this comes down to how I feel about Micro Four Thirds and how much money I’m prepared to put into lenses. The basic message that I’m getting in this thread is that Leica rangefinder lenses aren’t good enough for ciné work on the Pocket 4K. Cutting to the chase, I think that the bottom line is that I’m either prepared to purchase the Fujinon, or at a minimum various MFT primes over time, recognizing that MFT primes are also not seen as ideal, or I’m not. It doesn’t take much thinking to figure out that the Fujinon rapidly becomes the smarter economic, let alone technical, decision. I’ll make my decision tomorrow.

Enjoy New York. Looks like we’re in for some rain, but unseasonably warm weather.

* Edit: Added that I’m talking about the original Sony RX0. Version 2 will apparently record 4K directly.
Last edited by robedge on Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 2573
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 4:18 pm

robedge wrote:
That’s why I said that the SL2 can be used to record Raw to an Atomos “if I want”.



I'm not sure it can though. ProRes yes. ProRes RAW ? I don't thinks so. Maybe in the future.

In which case you can use the PIX.

robedge wrote:I think that this comes down to how I feel about Micro Four Thirds and how much money I’m prepared to put into lenses. The basic message that I’m getting in this thread is that Leica rangefinder lenses aren’t good enough for ciné work on the Pocket 4K.


I wouldn't say that either. I think they're just not "optimised" for cine work.

Leica have attempted to address this. You can for example get these.

https://www.leitz-cine.com/m-08-cine-lenses/

They de-click the lenses and add a focu gear. If you didn't already have the lenses it's not a bad deal. But the same issues of not that great minimum focus and differing filter sizes you brought up still apply.

Cine lenses just have a different set of requirements.

I think you absolutely can make your current lens family work on the P4K. Like your RX, you get a small-ish camera platform that no longer requires the PIX external recorder and will get you a better result in terms of IQ because of the dynamic range and optimised video camera IQ from the sensor itself.

robedge wrote:Cutting to the chase, I think that the bottom line is that I’m either prepared to purchase the Fujinon, or at a minimum various MFT primes over time, recognizing that MFT primes are also not seen as ideal, or I’m not. It doesn’t take much thinking to figure out that the Fujinon rapidly becomes the smarter economic, let alone technical, decision. I’ll make my decision tomorrow.



MFT primes are ideal for MFT cameras.

And as mentioned, there are some good MFT native options out there.

But I think you're trying to make larger image circle lenses work for the smaller sensor size and that throws up other issues. And those MFT solutions aren't any good for the rest of your camera family.

What ends up happening is you have multiple camera / lens families.

I shoot Olympus MFT as my silent shutter spray and pray camera. I have the Olympus lenses that then ALSO work on my MFT mount cameras like the P4K and the DJI and Z cams. So a win for one lens family that covers a few cameras.

I shoot Leica M and have an M2, M3, M7, MP, M-E, M8 and an M10. A bunch of Leica M lenses that can technically be adapted to the m4/3 cameras including the Olympus, but it's never worth it. I can get M mount ALexa or RED cameras too but again...why bother trying to shoe-horn a lens when there's better solutions.

And I also shoot Leica S and Mamiya 7 and an X-Pan just because. All different lenses.

Thats m4/3, 135/ff format, two different medium format mounts and an orphan format.

I would love to buy a fuji camera, but I can't bring myself to start up yet another lens mount line. Especially the GFX series...

If I were you I'd accept you may have to go with a few lens lines and be done with it. I wish my Leica S lenses could be adapted. Instead, Leica took the design and then released them as Thalia's. What's 200K between friends...

I would also maybe consider the Sigma FP. I'm taking a look at one tomorrow.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Currently - Ontario Canada
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 7201
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 4:31 pm

While I second most everything John wrote, it seems that besides FCP-X on the Mac, Edius is now supporting ProRes RAW on the PC.

Regarding the Sigma fp, I just had a long, hard look at it, shoot away questions if you like.
It will support RAW transfer to the Atomos with the next firmware, BTW.
Resolve Studio 16.2.2 and Fusion Studio under MacOS Mojave 10.14.6
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM and 32 GB RAM
Mac mini 16 GB RAM plus eGFX Breakway Radeon RX 580
Offline

Curtis Campsall

  • Posts: 36
  • Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 5:27 pm

If you are looking to stick with small lenses that will fit 52mm filters, you could try the Meike 25mm f1.8. This is not the cine line but the smaller pancake style that has a 35mm and 50mm as well. 49mm filter so easy step up. I cant speak to how they would match the Leica but find them optically neutral with no particular colour cast. I have the set and quite like them, full 180 degree focus pull and declicked aperture. Native MFT mount is nice as well. One negative is that the 25 seems to focus past infinity, while the others have solid hard stops, but in practice it hasn't been an issue. I wish this set would add a similar 16 or 17mm, but I'm not holding my breath. Laowa has released a 17mm f1.8 of similar size, I'm seriously considering getting this, reviews look good. It is twice the price of the Meike ones, but they are almost cheap enough to consider throw away, but half the cost of anything else in the spec range, so worth considering.
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 5:43 pm

Hi John,

Just checked and you’re right that the SL2/Atomos situation with ProRes Raw is unclear. Atomos has specs on its web site for the original SL, but so far has nothing about the SL2.

Those M0.8 lenses, which I didn’t know existed, are intriguing. Interesting decision on Leica’s part to put its M-mount lenses in more ciné-friendly form.

I agree with your nuanced take on what the choice is. I’m just very much in bottom line mode at this point.

Tomorrow I’ll end up with either an SL2 on order or the Fujinon in hand.

Thanks
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 2573
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 5:47 pm

robedge wrote:Hi John,

Just checked and you’re right that the SL2/Atomos situation with ProRes Raw is unclear. Atomos has specs on its web site for the original SL, but so far has nothing about the SL2.

Those M0.8 lenses, which I didn’t know existed, are intriguing. Interesting decision on Leica’s part to put its M-mount lenses in more ciné-friendly form.

I agree with your nuanced take on what the choice is. I’m just very much in bottom line mode at this point.

Tomorrow I’ll end up with either an SL2 on order or the Fujinon in hand.

Thanks


All good.

And to be sure, the SL and SL2 will both do ProRes via your PIX or other recorder.

They just don’t do ProRes RAW.

And interesting Uli on the FP. Is that announced or rumoured ? I know Atomos being the only ProRes RAW recorder and been implying a lot of support when in reality it’s only working on a Nikon (with a paid upgrade) as of right now as far as I know.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Currently - Ontario Canada
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 7201
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am
  • Location: Germany and Indonesia

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 6:03 pm

Seems to be announced: www.cinema5d.com/sigma-fp-log-picture-p ... next-year/

It already records CinemaDNG over USB-C, but as we all know, that's huge and heavy.

It doesn't use any windowing other than for APS-C right now and only UHD looks good. HD (for higher speeds) seems to use line-skipping, it has about half the RS and awful aliasing.

The build quality is excellent, you might as well put a red dot on it ;-)

Pretty good running times off battery too. But no mechanical shutter and no IBIS.
Resolve Studio 16.2.2 and Fusion Studio under MacOS Mojave 10.14.6
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM and 32 GB RAM
Mac mini 16 GB RAM plus eGFX Breakway Radeon RX 580
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 2573
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 6:41 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Seems to be announced: http://www.cinema5d.com/sigma-fp-log-pi ... next-year/

It already records CinemaDNG over USB-C, but as we all know, that's huge and heavy.

It doesn't use any windowing other than for APS-C right now and only UHD looks good. HD (for higher speeds) seems to use line-skipping, it has about half the RS and awful aliasing.

The build quality is excellent, you might as well put a red dot on it ;-)

Pretty good running times off battery too. But no mechanical shutter and no IBIS.


Interesting.

I haven’t had very good luck with Leica repairs. My S 006 has been back to Germany twice for repairs within the first three years of owning it. The second time they did give me a loaner.

My M10 has also been back twice to Germany for the same repair under warranty. Second time I asked for a loaner and was begrudgingly given one.

And my M-E blew a shutter after 1000 shots and was replaced under warranty and then there was the whole Sensor corrosion issue does the sensor was replaced as well.

My 50 Sumicron APO has been repaired twice for a loose screw in the focus action and the 28mm sumicron has been repaired three times because the front assembly fell off. Seems like a fault with that lens.

So for all the raving about leica build quality, I don’t know that they live up to it. It sure stings a lot when you pay through the nose for their gear too.

Reading that link closely it seems to me cinema 5D are making the ProRes RAW / Atomos connection. Sigma just seem to say “RAW over HDMI” which could open up a few options.

Because there are other RAW recording monitors. Like The 7Q and of course Blackmagic are now doing BRAW recorders as well.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Currently - Ontario Canada
Offline

Brad Hurley

  • Posts: 1599
  • Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm
  • Location: Montréal

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 6:44 pm

The fp is indeed intriguing, and I was more intrigued after I watched this, the best example of fp footage I've seen so far:



I'm still holding out hope, though, that BMD will release an updated Micro Cinema Camera in 2020. We'll see.
Resolve 16.1.2 Studio, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
Audio I/O: Sound Devices USBPre-2
Offline
User avatar

dondidnod

  • Posts: 269
  • Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:52 am
  • Location: Castro Valley, CA
  • Real Name: Donald Keller

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 8:14 pm

I have heard old timers at camera shows refer to classic Leica still camera lenses as being in a camp with more character than the Zeiss camp which values sharpness instead. I have seen several online posts where users state that Voigtländer lenses are close to the Leica look.

dpreview.com - in the thread Re: Are Voigtländer lenses really inferior to Leica lenses? bosjohn21 said "...I own and use the f1.5 50mm (Voigtländer) Nokton from Cosina and I find it to be an excellent. Perhaps not as good as the newest iterations of the Leica lenses but every bit as good as the older lenses. ...if we can see any differences in our files it will be in the micro contrast and color rendition ...the coating and corrections of the cosina seem very good."
in response Jim Evidon said "My two Zeiss lenses, the 35mm Biogon and the 50mm Planar are now my go-to lenses. It's not that they seem optically the equal of the much pricier Leica lenses. They draw differently and have a slightly greater contrast and the colors appear to be brighter."

Keep in mind that the BMPCC 4K only has a 8.3 MP sensor and you are not going to get as much of the benefit from a high contrast, high sharpness lens as you would from other cameras.

The Voigtländer Nokton series has been competing in the same space with Leica for over half a century. I am not an expert on the various generations of the Leica lenses but have found examples of them on the REDuser forum that are very cinematic.

Maybe one of our viewers can grace us with some examples of Leica images on the BMPCC 4K.

Although I usually shoot using F/1.4 or more for sharpness, I have found situations where the bloom of a Voightlander near wide open can be an asset. The advantage of leveraging shooting in 12 bit in post production means that you can produce amazing images. They would look different if I shot using a 10 bit codec. You can view them here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97333&p=540384&hilit=truth+in+beauty#p540384

Re: Need help choosing a prime lense for the BMPCC 4K

Here is another example of the Voigtländer near wide open:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90015&p=504547&hilit=Voigtlander+Nokton+Cine+Mod#p504547

Re: Voigtländer Nokton Cine-Mod Set or FUJINON MK18-55mm T2.

Although there are times where the Full Frame ex soviet-era lenses can shoot images with a lot of character, they were not designed with an MFT camera in mind. Keep in mind that you are only using 25% of the area of a full frame lens on an MFT camera.

A Full Frame F/2.8 lens on a BMPCC 4K is F/5.3 equivalent Depth of Field. This is bad news if you were counting on going for a more creative shallow DOF with a MFT lens, unless you get a very fast one.

If you don't have a fast lens then I've heard that you have to raise the ISO on the BMPCC 4K a couple of stops to get an equivalent image to a Full Frame lens = more noise.

Although the Voigtländers are not for cheapskates, they are less than the price of a Leica and have a lot of character. They are carefully crafted to reduce chromatic aberration, unlike most vintage ex-soviet character lenses. They are easy to focus with a click-less aperture ring (selectable) that has a 270 degree throw and they have enough contrast to show in the colored lines of a BMPCC 4K's focus assist. They hold their value and if you buy used, you can sell them back for about what you paid for them if you need to.

I tried a Rokinon. They are made for a larger image circle and adapted to MFT and I was disappointed by the purple fringing. Here is a comparison to the Voigtländer:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72506&p=504279&hilit=peace+officers#p504279

Re: Pocket Cinema Camera 4k lens advice

If you are shooting portraits, the Voigtländer 42.5mm MFT F/0.95 gives the skin a nice glowy, creamy bloom that hides facial imperfections when you add an ND filter and open up the aperture beyond F/1.4.

Finding a full frame lens in the 18-24mm focal length that has a filter size of 52mm or less is a tall order. The MFT Voigtländers are 58mm. The old Olympus OM 21mm F/2.0 & F/3.5 "backpackers lenses" come to mind with a 49mm thread. Here is an example on a BMPCC 4K:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=95201&p=530991&hilit=olympus+om+21mm#p530991

Although using a full frame lens on an MFT mount camera can be an economical and versatile solution, I wonder if you are inviting internal reflections by doing so.

Here is an example on the BMPCC 4K where I shot myself using a Voigtländer 17.5mm from 4 feet away against a green screen using Braw Q0 and placed it in front of an overcast afternoon scene using a Voigtländer 42.5mm F/0.95 MFT lens with Vormax Compact 1.33x anamorphic adapter plus .3 and .5 diopters from 40 and 60 feet away using Braw 3:1.
DonOlmecV17&V42Vmx.jpg
Voigtländer 17.5mm & 42.5mm F/0.95 MFT lenses & Vormax Compact 1.33x anamorphic adapter
DonOlmecV17&V42Vmx.jpg (997.67 KiB) Viewed 1642 times

The 1993 Helios 44M-7 58mm F/2.0 lens, which is based on Zeiss Biotar patents has a different look. It's sharper (the sharpest of the Helios 44 series), but has less character compared to the Voigtländer 42.5mm F/0.95 MFT lens.
Attachments
HD44M7Vmx500_10101515_C817.jpg
Helios 44M-7 lens with Vormax Compact 1.33x anamorphic adapter.
HD44M7Vmx500_10101515_C817.jpg (875.95 KiB) Viewed 1642 times
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostSat Dec 28, 2019 9:50 pm

dondidnod wrote:Finding a full frame lens in the 18-24mm focal length that has a filter size of 52mm or less is a tall order.


For info... Canon, Leica, Minolta, Nikon, Pentax, Voigtlander and Zeiss, just that I know of, make or have made full frame lenses in this focal range with a filter size of 52mm or less. The Zeiss 21mm referred to in earlier posts in this thread takes 46mm filters.
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 12812
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostMon Dec 30, 2019 8:43 pm

I agree with John, in that using native MFT lenses on the Pocket :D 4K or any MFT Camera is the best option. That said, I also use the Zeiss ZF 28mm, 35mm, and 50mm with the Metabones MFT/ZF PC4K Speed Booster and a non SB adapter. While not 52mm, the Zeiss ZFs are 58mm from 25mm-85mm, but I have mine with Cine Mod front adapter to get 77mm filters, which I mostly use, or a 4x4 on a matte box.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostMon Dec 30, 2019 9:18 pm

The outcome is a long way from where I started. I checked out several options at B&H and decided to purchase a Fujinon MK 18-55mm. I have very little experience with zoom lenses, but after trying out the Fujinon it seemed an obvious choice for my needs.

The tradeoff is that it’s not exactly a compact lens, but I can use one of my Leica M primes, which I’m happy with in terms of image quality, when the Fujinon’s 20.5cm/8” length is a nuisance. When wanted, three of the primes will also give me longer focal lengths, at 1.9 crop, of 140mm, 170mm and 255mm.

I would suggest that anyone looking for a native Micro Four Thirds prime lens of 20mm or less consider the Panasonic/Leica 15mm f/1.7 as well as the Olympus 17mm f/1.8 and Olympus Pro 17mm f/1.2. If I’d gone this route, and having now looked at all three, I would have chosen the Panasonic/Leica. For full frame, particularly M-mount, the Zeiss Biogon T* 21mm f/2.8, which B&H has both new and used, is also an interesting option. For widish, I’ve settled on the wide end of the Fujinon. For close focus the Fujinon has a “macro” mode, and I’ve got a macro lens that should work well when needed.

For those who are interested in the new Leica SL2, it is a beautiful camera. However, B&H only has one, which it’s using for demo purposes. It says that delivery is about two months (I suspect longer) and I decided to give Micro Four Thirds and the Pocket 4K a chance.

Thanks to everyone who commented.

Cheers
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 13753
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostMon Dec 30, 2019 11:38 pm

. Excellent but I’m feeling green with envy!

Of course that’s a happy ending!
Rick Lang
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostTue Dec 31, 2019 12:20 am

rick.lang wrote:Excellent but I’m feeling green with envy!

Of course that’s a happy ending!


Given that you undoubtedly know more than me about how to handle this lens on a Pocket 4K, or indeed on any cinema camera, you are being generous :)
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 13753
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostTue Dec 31, 2019 12:26 am

When you’re feeling adventurous, the SLR Magic 1.33x-65 Anamorphot adapter was designed for your lens. Simply screw on and you’re ready to shoot anamorphic with that lens that becomes a Super 35 view when you’re shooting UHD on the BMPCC4K. I have the adapter but not the Fujinon MK! I use it with my SLR Magic APO primes (works with 30mm and longer focal lengths).
Rick Lang
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostTue Dec 31, 2019 12:43 am

rick.lang wrote:I have the adapter but not the Fujinon MK!


Fujinon is offering it US$500 off until midnight tomorrow :)

Edit: Just looked at the price of the adapter. The lens did enough financial damage for the moment, but for you the lens is more like an add-on :)
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 13753
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostTue Dec 31, 2019 1:10 am

One giant step is enough for one day! Congratulations on the choice. For me lenses are the toughest decision and you’ve made a good one.
Rick Lang
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 12812
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostTue Dec 31, 2019 1:54 am

Congratulations. I have the Panny Leica 15mm, great little lens, but the Olympus Pro 17mm f/1.2 has better controlled distortion, but has less FoV being a longer focal length. Every choice is a compromise along the way. Enjoy and have fun.

You will need to get a rail mount kit and lens support for that zoom when you are on a tripod. Handheld, you can hold the lens on one hand and the camera in the other, balancing the load on the lens mount.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

robedge

  • Posts: 926
  • Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 am
  • Location: U.S.
  • Real Name: Rob Edge

Re: What True Manual Focus Lenses Work With the Pocket 4K?

PostTue Dec 31, 2019 2:26 am

Denny Smith wrote:Congratulations. I have the Panny Leica 15mm, great little lens, but the Olympus Pro 17mm f/1.2 has better controlled distortion, but has less FoV being a longer focal length. Every choice is a compromise along the way. Enjoy and have fun.


Yes, it’s always a compromise. My thinking starts with the fact that the Olympus Pro, at US$1200, is exactly double the price of the Panasonic Leica. The latter has the same minimum focus distance, is smaller and lighter and takes 46mm filters instead of 62mm, which works better for a lot of people. Unlike the Olympus, the Panasonic Leica isn’t weather sealed, but neither is the Pocket 4K camera.

Buying the 17mm, 25mm and 45mm lenses in the Olympus Pro series at their regular online price would actually cost US$300 more than buying the Fujinon MK 18-55 by midnight tomorrow, $200 less after :)

Thanks very much for your comment on the Fujinon. I’ve quoted it in the related current thread: viewtopic.php?p=581222#p581222

Cheers
Video: Pocket 4K, Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica primes 35-135mm, Nikkor 55mm macro

Stills: Leica M3/M6/M240; Mamiya 7II; Arca Swiss 4x5/8x10

Sound: Schoeps omni & supercardiod mikes; DPA miniature omni mikes; Sound Devices 702T/MixPre-6 v.2

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Philipp Schröppel, timbutt2 and 40 guests