BMD should respond to the Komodo and Z-CAM

To make a cube camera, BM would have to redesign their circuit boards and internal layout to conform with the shape. Their camera products seem to have matured inside the existing forms offered.
[...]
The cube likely would require more dividing and folding of the circuits with permanently bonded or plugged ribbon cables than already. Then they would have to iron out the bugs which would inevitably emerge.

This effort to compete with the Z-Cam and Komodo would cannibalise the sales of the existing BM line-up. If it was viable as a business decision, I am sure BM would have offered the upgraded little cube camera form.

There may also be the small matter of straying too close to already registered designs. History suggests that RED chased BM away from Cinema DNG ( good research and citations needed ).

If BM is risk-averse when it comes to litigation, that would be a further disincentive to making and marketing a competing cube camera.

There are more profitable things to do beside hiring expensive legal teams to field off real or vexatious legal applications.

Lol. Did you know that the BMMCC (cubic format of the Pocket OG) exists since 2015?

There may also be the small matter of straying too close to already registered designs. History suggests that RED chased BM away from Cinema DNG ( good research and citations needed ).

.

Ummm...

Before Komodo....

Before Z Cam...

There was

The Micro....

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... nemacamera

It's only sin today is that it's "only" a HD resolution and is a S16ish+ sized sensor....But in it's day there was nothing like it. ProRes and RAW to 60 FPS on a Dual Gain sensor.

JB

.[/quote]


Ummm...

Before Komodo....

Before Z Cam...

There was

The Micro....

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... nemacamera

It's only sin today is that it's "only" a HD resolution and is a S16ish+ sized sensor....But in it's day there was nothing like it. ProRes and RAW to 60 FPS on a Dual Gain sensor.

JB[/quote]

BM was there first with the micro. Would that dissuade RED or Z-Cam from indulging in a little vexatious litigation to stymie competition.

If BM set loose a 4K cube camera styled after the original micro with the new tech sensor, what a coup that would be.

Yep! Or model the design of my previously proposed BMPCC8K after the form and features of the Micro but put their new sensor tech in a slightly larger cube at 8K (18.0224x9.504mm) and able to record 6K and 4K. Keep the active mFT mount and perhaps modernize some of the electrical communication with the lens.

I wonder if this camera could be their first camera to include CFXpress in a single slot if they don’t have room for a dual slot. I’m glad I’ve got CFast2 cards, but I’d like my next camera to go well beyond the limits of a single SDXC II card. I’d likely buy another Video Assist to go with it.

How can BMD resist the temptation to add this radio controlled BMMi8K camera?

I wouldn't be upset if it looked exactly like the original micro just bigger with a better either bluetooth or wifi controller/monitor.

Ummm...

Before Komodo....

Before Z Cam...

There was

The Micro....

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... nemacamera

It's only sin today is that it's "only" a HD resolution and is a S16ish+ sized sensor....But in it's day there was nothing like it. ProRes and RAW to 60 FPS on a Dual Gain sensor.

JB

but there was also the micro studiocamera 4k ; -)

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/at/pro ... iocamera4k

Ummm...

Before Komodo....

Before Z Cam...

There was

The Micro....

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... nemacamera

It's only sin today is that it's "only" a HD resolution and is a S16ish+ sized sensor....But in it's day there was nothing like it. ProRes and RAW to 60 FPS on a Dual Gain sensor.

JB

but there was also the micro studiocamera 4k ; -)

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/at/pro ... iocamera4k

But no recording. Camera only.

No dual gain sensor.

Meant as a TV / Webcam. Not for narrative work.

JB

I own both the pocket 6K and the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2. I like both form factors and BMD has it. So those who like that pocket form factor can buy the pocket today. The UMP form is still large and it is find because I can expand it as need be. Since I already have both, I want BMD to come out with a new form factor - one that has more of the Komodo or ZCam form factor but

1. with no monitor
2. everything that is in the pocket 4K and 6K today except the monitor and that ugly DSLR style body.
3. Built-in ND
4. Removable mounts so it can be either MFT, EF, or PL just like the UMP G2
5. SDI
6. Price at about < $1000 for the 4K and < $2000 for the 6K model.
7. Lot's of mounting holes

I think that is very doable and there will be a lot of indie filmmakers who will go for it over the Komodo or ZCam - particularly due to price and BMD ingenuity.

Nah.

The camera needs a monitor in order to navigate the menus and set it up. It doesn't have to be as big as a P6K monitor, but that size is a huge contributing factor why it's so nice to use.

If we "just" get "everything that is in the P6K", it's as if time has stood still. I'd be happy to keep the 6-6.5K resolution, but I want the next pocket to move to FF and a RF mount. I personally don't need it to be removable. And since it will be FF it doesn't need to support smaller mounts anyway.

Built in ND: yes.

Materials and buttons like a Canon C70 and a price around $4995 so they can hit all those targets. I can't imagine that $1995 gives them any wiggle room to make something nice.

I'd much rather see a camera priced properly but where all the buttons were really nice and the monitor was bright and accurate.

So I guess TL;DR, I'm much more in the C70 camp than in the "here's half your camera box, now go out and buy the rest of it"-camp.

Nothing against the DSLR line of cameras, I have a P4K, but I would be very happy to see BMD offering a minimal cube shaped camera. Other companies are going for it so unless they are all loosing their mind this means this is a segment of the market worth exploring.

I think modularity is being a bit underestimated. Features not included in a "minimal awesome cube" would also mean lower price, the user could then decide what to buy to make the camera perform as needed. I like the P4K's monitor but I would easily sacrifice it for a cube shaped camera with a smaller one (control oriented), the same goes for the LP-E6 but that is more than discussed already.

I read in previous posts this is playing LEGO and "people never got over that phase", couldn't disagree more. Many products are highly modular, computers for example: you can assemble one or buy an already assembled machine, you can exchange or upgrade parts. I don't see any drawback in this approach.

Personally I would buy the 6K BMD "minimal awesome cube" if such thing existed. Exactly what specs and final price would this camera have and how these compare to the competitors is then the tricky part... +DR, +fps, interchangeable mount, FF sensor, good built in ND, global shutter would all be welcome.

With the BM 12K being S35, I would be surprised if FF is in the offing. I feel less interested in resolution increase and more interested in derivation of the 12K sensor, which could be 8K as Rick suggests. I'd be fine with 6K as long if it's like the 12K sensor and not a Sony sensor. I want it in a cube. But cheaper than the C70, which is a pretty sweet camera, but BM I think needs to compete below that, let's say $2500 to $3k. Along the lines of the Zcams. I have EF mount lenses so if it was RF mount doesn't Canon make a EF to RF with variable ND? Maybe that would work. Though it would be cool if the camera had it instead. And pump braw out to the video assist. Seriously.

I figured we would have a Micro Cinema update by now. I was putting off buying a second Pocket 4k in the hopes that I could wait for a Micro Cinema with BRAW to allow more versatility with my camera setup.

Personally, I don't think it should have a built-in monitor or memory card slots. We already have that with the P4K and 6K. I'd prefer to keep the size as small as possible and record/monitor with a Video Assist.

The good news for everyone is that I'll be ordering my B-Cam Pocket 4k this month, so that means the BRAW Micro Cinema will be announced soon.

I figured we would have a Micro Cinema update by now. I was putting off buying a second Pocket 4k in the hopes that I could wait for a Micro Cinema with BRAW to allow more versatility with my camera setup.

Personally, I don't think it should have a built-in monitor or memory card slots. We already have that with the P4K and 6K. I'd prefer to keep the size as small as possible and record/monitor with a Video Assist.

The good news for everyone is that I'll be ordering my B-Cam Pocket 4k this month, so that means the BRAW Micro Cinema will be announced soon.

Exactly, the speed editor keyboard came out days after I bought Davinci 16. So I'm not buying anything BM until the next camera comes out. I appreciate you taking the hit for the rest of us.

Nah.

The camera needs a monitor in order to navigate the menus and set it up. It doesn't have to be as big as a P6K monitor, but that size is a huge contributing factor why it's so nice to use.

If we "just" get "everything that is in the P6K", it's as if time has stood still. I'd be happy to keep the 6-6.5K resolution, but I want the next pocket to move to FF and a RF mount. I personally don't need it to be removable. And since it will be FF it doesn't need to support smaller mounts anyway.

Built in ND: yes.

Materials and buttons like a Canon C70 and a price around $4995 so they can hit all those targets. I can't imagine that $1995 gives them any wiggle room to make something nice.

I'd much rather see a camera priced properly but where all the buttons were really nice and the monitor was bright and accurate.

So I guess TL;DR, I'm much more in the C70 camp than in the "here's half your camera box, now go out and buy the rest of it"-camp.

Nah. No monitor. A small LED panel to control the camera, maybe but not as important.

No FF or RF mount at all. Just make a removable mount that will take PL, EF, and MFT.

Price it < $2000. That is a very good target for a box camera without monitor that will be very competitive to the Red Komodo and Z-Cam product line.

And if you want it to be like and priced as a C70, buy a C70 then. End of story!

This I will buy. Anything else, forget about it.

I just know that my next camera purchase will likely be a RED Komodo.
I watched some footage from it and the GLOBAL SHUTTER WAS AMAZING.
I didn’t realize how much I missed that from the short time I owned a 4k Ursa Mini.

The fact that you can either build it up or run it on a gimbal means a lot.
I had debated buying a pocket 4k just for gimbal work, but I think I’ll save and make the switch next year.

I think I will miss the screen on BMPCC.
I'd rather just keep my bmpcc and just order BMMCC or get second hand for gimbal work.
BMMCC has a beautiful cinematic look
You can always upscale the HD footage to 4K if you want.

I just know that my next camera purchase will likely be a RED Komodo.
I watched some footage from it and the GLOBAL SHUTTER WAS AMAZING.
I didn’t realize how much I missed that from the short time I owned a 4k Ursa Mini.

The fact that you can either build it up or run it on a gimbal means a lot.
I had debated buying a pocket 4k just for gimbal work, but I think I’ll save and make the switch next year.

The "box" answer for me is the URSA Mini. I have a built up muscle memory from working with the 4.6K and accessories that immediately transferred over to the 12K. It's pretty exciting that the transition was so seamless and it feels like buying a new film stock rather than a new camera where you have to research a new set of accessories.

The built up cost of the Komodo with accessories and computer upgrades push the price higher than the 12K URSA for me. I'm not getting easy Komodo playback on my current GTX 1080 beast build pc and the 12K Q0 & Q5 in 12K, 8K and 4K are still smooth even with some noise reduction.

There is also an immediacy to shooting in the moment with the 12K. The color fidelity feels like the biggest upgrade. The subjects seem more lifelike with the Extended LUT preview looking through the viewfinder and at the monitor which I think is some of the attraction to the Komodo global shutter.

Here’s a brief look at the Tilta kit for the Komodo from FD Times:

https://www.fdtimes.com/2021/01/05/tilt ... st-title_2

Even if they made a 4K and 6k micro and charged 2500 and 3000 for them I’m sure they will sell

Well this is an interesting test of the Komodo:

https://www.cined.com/red-komodo-6k-lab ... tude-test/

The comparisons of latitude and dynamic range to the BMPCC6K and recording in ProRes versus R3D are most illuminating. Worth reading the full article if you’re considering a purchase of either camera. It looks like the global shutter is the most important feature after all.

There's a lot of speculation that BMD may come out with an updated and redesigned version of the Micro Cinema Camera. It's overdue. That camera has a "boxy" form factor, but it's an awfully small box (fits in the palm of your hand). I like it so much that I just bought a second one (used, with cage and remote). Incredibly flexible and adaptable: I've used it small, with just a cage, monitor, and lens, and built it out with a full rig on rails with mattebox and follow focus.

I love my Micros. I have a few studio versions with a SmallRig cage, this HDMI clamp and this breakout module. Dmitry, who makes them, is on this site. Great stuff.

form factor, too wide for gimbals

I use my Pocket 4 & 6Ks on a Ronin-S all the time. I use the LanParte offset plate and a couple of counterweights. Zero issues.

to me, Global Shutter and Internal NDs are such a big desire and want/need in my next camera.
The RED Komodo can solve both, the latter with an adapter. But even as I say this, I just bought a Pocket 4K to play with portability and smaller rigging options vs my UMPG2.

The BMPCC4K is a very versatile camera especially how well the ISO 3200 setting works. The number of different resolutions for BRAW and ProRes are excellent. Hope you let us know what you think.

if we're being real the Komodo and Z-Cam are responses to the Pockets.

This is more of a BMD needs to compete in the "box" style camera thread than anything.

Good news guys

My SOURCE said BMD are going to be releasing a CUBE type camera with the 12k type SENSOR and a new 12g VIDEO ASSIST to control the camera soon.
Price between $2500-$3500

NO Full frame
NO in built ND
NO global shutter

This is still hush hush so pls tell NO one

- cube
- BMD sensor, not Sony sensor
- built in ND
- Sony NP-F batteries

WHEN?????????????????

NAB 2021 virtual?

My Mac Pro has no problem handling the full 12K BRAW resolution (although I expect I’d use the 8K downscaled in camera), so why not, eh?

Preordered, thanks.

+1

I would really love to see a BMD camera with the form factor of the Micro Cinema Camera and the specs of the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K / 6K / Pro.

When I saw the Pocket Cinema Camera 6K Pro announcment I would have instantly ordered it in terms of the specs, but as a user of the Pocket 4K, I know about the hussle with the form factor of a photography camera: Awkwardly riggable, connectors too close together and also on the side of the camera, that faces towards your head if you shoot shoulder-mounted, built-in monitor hard to reach if you use external batteries like V-mounts and so on.

So, yeah, please give us a box-shaped camera, BMD!

Still waintin'

An enterprising fella in a low-labour-cost place like Dongguan China could probably make a cottage industry out of building cube enclosures for Ursa Mini Pro/Ursa Mini Pro G2/Mini Pro 12K guts. Whether the market is really there may be another matter.

Fully assembled, it would not be cheap for existing cameras to be rehoused and of course all warranties would become void.

Committed and deposited pre-orders might get something third-party moving as a rehousing service. I doubt BM would sell unhoused camera guts to a third-party cube builder as it would cannibalise its existing sales.

An enterprising fella in a low-labour-cost place like Dongguan China could probably make a cottage industry out of building cube enclosures for Ursa Mini Pro/Ursa Mini Pro G2/Mini Pro 12K guts.

I don't really see a point in changing the bodies of the "Mini Pro"-line, as they already have quite a "normal" form factor for a cinema camera, whereas the "Pocket"-line bodies don't.

Ps. from the above link

Nice, the flythru footage is surreal.

Good Luck

"Zweistein --- I don't really see a point in changing the bodies of the "Mini Pro"-line, as they already have quite a "normal" form factor for a cinema camera, whereas the "Pocket"-line bodies don't."

I agree. Some folk seem to want a BM cube camera. I've beaten on this drum before so please forgive the slight repeat.

Unless BM decided to triple-fold the single processor/sensor PCB of the BMPCC 4K and 6K with all the weird and strange problems that may be introduced, cubing these cameras would not achieve a size reduction.

It would be larger. There would be a lot of hollow space which might be good for adding fullsize XLR sockets but little use for anything else.

That same cube case or one very slightly larger might enclose the Ursa Mini Pro gizzards which are capable of being triple-folded in the form they already exist.

If you were to go the RF-Mount route, you likely would lose the IRND filter wheels due to reduced workspace between the sensor and lens mount flange face.

Why a cube? and not a brick. A brick will maintain the current form factor but could be more customizable sort if like the sony f3, with detachable handles on each side.

Ricardo Marty

Kim Janson.

I hear you regarding outlets and cables. My personal preference for a cube camera would be to keep it simple with as few holes in the camera body as possible. This would mean using a single multipin socket except for power.

I would want a solid tether point on the camera body so that weight of cables does not pull on the socket and possibly damage parts inside the camera body.

The SI2K P+S Technik camera dock/recorder unit used a single D-sub multipin socket and breakout cable for audio in and out.

It was secured by the traditional small setscrews to the camera. With four XLR connectors swinging in the breeze, for me at least, it turned out to be an awkward pest and I made lighter adaptor cables of my own.

The weight of cables imposed strain on the D-Sub socket, the light metal panel it was fastened through and its soldered attachments inside to the motherboard. I routinely tethered the audio cables to the camera body.

The row of sockets along the right side of the case were conveniently angled slightly downwards so that any light rainfall which fell on the cables before the camera was covered did not run along the cables into the camera but dripped off the curve of the cables if they were positioned high.

The downside of any multipin outlet is the adaptor cable itself which adds another fail point into the many signal paths. The adaptor cable itself must be made in smaller numbers, cost more and may become unobtainium after the production run of the camera ends.

The JVC KY-F50 almost brick-style camera head also used a rear D-Sub style connector with different pin-out options for composite, S-video and component vision outputs as well as BNC outlets.

Why a cube? and not a brick.

Both cube and cube would be fine for me, as long as the brick is longer that wide. Important is that the cable connectors are on the back, not the side, too.

Connectors on the side are bad, but you can use angle adapter. Not too perfect and not extremely compact but usable, simple and low cost.
Connectors on the back are also bad. They don't allow to mount large battery on the back side and stick from the back so it is impossible to mount camera on the gimbal.
Good example of cable management is Sony FX series of cameras. Connectors are on the side but they are angled and aligned to the back and so cables lay across the body length (but still stick a little bit from rear side). In larger models they aligned XLR connectors in same way.

Very important thing is monitor cable connector alignment. It should be on the side or on the top side and should be directed in front. In this way cable lays in essential way and totally secure because don't extends outside body dimensions.
But BM simply use cables with angle connectors for EVF in Ursa.


Panasonic BGH cameras also hides connectors inside body in similar way. Design like this also help to protect cable connectors from accident impacts a little bit.

Yeah, the Sony and BGH1 are good examples.

I do use this angled adapter on my BMPCC4K from SmallRig: https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-hdmi- ... a2700.html

Still a workaround.

Can't speak from an engeneer's perspective, but from a consumer's perspective, this sounds and looks reasonable.

Lemo connectors are neat but they're not very user friendly when it comes time to replace them. On the other hand cat and coax can be terminated with simple, inexpensive crimps, in minutes.

Also with multipoint Lemo one will require a breakout like the BM squid, or a box like the Komodo. Look at this thing? What's the point if the box needs to be mounted on camera? At the end of the day what was saved?

rd7200058.jpg (28.04 KiB) Viewed 6281 times

The BGH1 is able to incorporate all of those connections and features without requiring additional hardware and expensive cabling. Bonus features POE, and a laptop lock, cool.

BeeGee.jpg (97.89 KiB) Viewed 6281 times

-1 for Lemo at this price point. I just paid $1400 for a pair of custom Lemo cables and it took a week to get them. That is the opposite of flexible.

Good Luck

I do see the attraction to have all the connections on camera, but not so much on a small camera. From gimbal use perspective many cables to camera is terrible idea.

BMD already have that new IP based studio converter in their line up, so if you wanted a single cable to the camera, the obvious solution would be to just put a (locking, PLEASE) cat5 connector on the camera and have a single network cable going off to the converter box.

I think I have said it before, but I'd be fine with an URSA Micro. So we could have URSA, URSA Mini, and URSA Micro as the lineup. It would be nice to have all those options with the same sensor, but with each having a purpose. I'd again iterate the idea that resurrecting the big URSA for higher frame rates and the largest sensor makes the most sense. The URSA Mini Pro body design is still solid for the all around camera. And the Micro would function primarily for gimbal and compact situations. A uniform sensor across would help make them all match perfectly.

Am I mistaken or is the Micro Cinema Camera not listed on the BMD products page anymore?

Thanks! Where did you find that? Neither can I find it under Media –> Latest News nor under Support –> Latest News.

Thank you!

Bad news

Bad news

Lets hope for an updated version then