One frame video delay with Ursa Mini Pro G2

****** Please see my post of Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:14 pm ******

Hi,

I noticed my Ursa Mini Pro has a video delay of 1 frame and that's unacceptable for broadcasting when no post is done. My Pocket 4K has NO delay. Latest firmware is installed.
Has anyone noticed this problem or has my Ursa a fault?

Also when recording there is an audio delay on my headphone, the Pocket doesn't have this audio delay.

No one?

Ursa Mini Pro on new enough firmware should have less than 1 frame of delay. I would contact support.

Latest firmware is installed and a factory reset didn't help. I'll contact support, thanks.

This is the G1. Should have less then 1 frame delay. But there are no updates anymore for that model camera.

Also you are running it with a B4 lens. I would suggest you trade the G1 in and get yourself the Broadcast Which has much better updates. And since the G1 was much more expensive then the Broadcast is today.. If you find the right dealer you might be able to switch it out for a brand new Broadcast.

I know a dealer that is looking for G1 cams in the Netherlands.. Laat maar weten Benno

I’m having the G2 and don’t want the broadcast. I use the pro for ENG work with a B4 lens and I also use the ART EF series lenses.

How did you determine the delay of the UMP and PCC4K?

I saw it when I edited an interview which I recorded with the Ursa and never noticed it with the Pocket 4K (which I’m having a few months longer).

So I did a testshoot with a clapperboard and recorded it with both the Ursa and Pocket. The Pocket is in sync but the audio of the Ursa comes 1 frame before the clapper closes.

OK, so we are not talking about video delay on the video outputs (SDI/HDMI) - because that was what I thought you meant.

When you compared both cameras in your clapperboard test - did you use internal audio or external audio mics on them?

It’s recorded through a dynamic and a condensor microphone by the XLR inputs of the camera’s.
I haven’t tested yet if the delay is present at the SDI output.

All digital camera's have a delay(capture, read and send, discharge, capture, etc..), just film a connected screen with any camera and you will see it has a delay.

Just an example

I’m sorry to say but I never had a video delay on ANY camera I’ve used the past years. Also I wrote that only my Ursa has a video delay, the Pocket is perfect in sync with audio and video.
The video you show is about filming a screen and of course there is delay, but I’m talking about audio and video out of sync in the recordings.

Aah you say you have a delay / out of sync of audio and video.. That is different from what i thoughed you were talking about SDI output delay as that has been an issue for several years..

Benno, could you upload some examples of your clapperboard test?
You should do at least three tests which each cameras, so we get a better average number.

Hi Robert and others,

I've done several tests with the same settings with both camera's and the Pocket is always okay and the Ursa G2 has always a delay of one frame.

So as no one knows this problem I'll sent my Ursa back to the manufacturer.
Thanks for your replies!

So I sent some files and screenshots to Blackmagic but they don't see/hear that my Ursa Mini Pro has a video delay of 1 frame!!!!
Attached four screenshots to compare my Pocket, which is perfect in sync, with my Ursa Mini Pro which has a video delay of one frame. The difference in the pictures is 1 frame, see timecode.

A - Pocket 1 frame before clapper is closed:
You can see very clear that 1 frame before the clapper closes there's no audio, also see the audio-level-meters. That's how it's supposed to be:



B - Pocket clapper is closed:
Here the clapper is closed and the playhead is perfect at the beginning of the audio. Also you see the audio-level-meters. This is perfect in sync:



C - Ursa Mini Pro 1 frame before clapper is closed:
Here the playhead is at the audio and you can hear the clap. You can also see that at the audio-level-meters. But the clapper still is open!!! Video has a delay of 1 frame:



D - Ursa Mini Pro clapper is closed:
Here the clapper is closed but the playhead is behind the audio, see also the audio-level-meters. So audio and video NOT in sync:



Why does Blackmagic not see and hear this? Can anybody help?
It doesn't look so much, only one frame but you can clearly see it with interviews so unusable for broadcasting.

Here is the response of Blackmagic:
"I have inspected the customers videos again and can confirm that the unit is performing as we would expect."

Attach a video file so we can hear it, to me it doesn’t seem like a problem

This thread has been going on since Feb 18 and still no video file for anyone to review.

This thread has been going on since Feb 18 and still no video file for anyone to review.

Hi Adam, the first time it's asked on March 16th by Robert, and on March 17th (one day later) I thought it would be the best to sent it to Blackmagic because no one recognizes this problem. At the moment I'm not able to post the video's but I'll do it tomorrow because Chris asked it today.

So here are the video's which the screenshots come from.

*** Edit ***
I uploaded by accident the Pocket clip in 25P and the Ursa clip in 50P, so my timeline for both clips was 25P. I had to make lot's of clips in several framerates and sent them to Blackmagic. But in all clips there is one frame video-delay.
Below this post you'll find a new post with the Ursa clip in 25P.
*** Edit ***

Pocket - Please go to timecode 6:23 - 6:24 and toggle between these two frames. You'll see and hear it's exactly sync:

https://www.redscope.nl/MTB/Pocket-A001_03131117_C001.mov

Ursa Mini Pro - Please go to timecode 5:06 - 5:07 and toggle between these two frames. You'll see and hear it's not in sync:

https://www.redscope.nl/MTB/Ursa-A002_03251152_C029.mov

The timecodes are the same as the captured images.

I downloaded the videos as watched them. I watched them without slowing them down or watching any meters. It looked natural to me.

These clips were both shot at different frame rates. The Pocket clip was shot at 25 frames per second, and the URSA Mini Pro clip was shot at 60 frames per second. Why not try the test shooting at the same frame rate and see if the result is the same.

These clips were both shot at different frame rates. The Pocket clip was shot at 25 frames per second, and the URSA Mini Pro clip was shot at 60 frames per second. Why not try the test shooting at the same frame rate and see if the result is the same.

Sorry, I also had to sent a 50P Ursa clip to Blackmagic instead of only 25P. By the way, the previous Ursa clip is 50P not 60 as you told.
I also have enough 25P clips of each camera's but there's always one frame video delay.

Here is a Ursa Mini Pro 25P clip, please check the second hit of the clapperboard and play with the arrow keys one frame back- and forward, you'll notice that's it's not okay:

https://www.redscope.nl/MTB/Ursa25P-A002_03131118_C001.mov

You are correct. It was 50p. Anyway, I downloaded the last clip. It does seem to be a little off. When I play it in real time, it doesn't bother me. I honestly haven't used a clapper board in a long time, since I use PluralEyes for my syncing. Not sure what to make of it.

I see what you mean, but on the other hand the UMPG2 footage still sits reasonably sync.
I have placed each a marker where I saw the clapper board closed (you shouldn't have used a 360° shutter on the PCC4k, because of the motion blur).
Then I set the clips in-point 1 frame before the marker and the clips length to 10 frames.
For me it seems sync as long as the clap falls inside around +-1 frame.

PCC4K-25p.png (50.71 KiB) Viewed 5539 times

The third clap here comes a bit before the marker.

UMPG2-25p.png (49.62 KiB) Viewed 5539 times

50p footage interpreted as 25p

UMPG2-50p_as_25p.png (51.81 KiB) Viewed 5539 times

At 50p slowed down to 25p you can see that it seems to be in sync quite exactly.

You are correct. It was 50p. Anyway, I downloaded the last clip. It does seem to be a little off. When I play it in real time, it doesn't bother me. I honestly haven't used a clapper board in a long time, since I use PluralEyes for my syncing. Not sure what to make of it.

When I play the clip I first hear audio and then the clapper closes, it's not much but it is visible when you look and hear very good. Especially when you compare it with the Pocket. Maybe you have a little audio delay on your system? Then it will be more in sync.
But if you are interviewing person's it's really more visible.

I didn't see it earlier because most of the time I use digital wireless microphones which has an audio delay of 19ms, so then it's (almost) not noticeable.
But when I'm recording with a normal microphone (dynamic or condenser) then you can see the video-delay.

For me it seems sync as long as the clap falls inside around +-1 frame.

First of all thanks for helping me Robert.
But it's not in sync, if you see your 2nd picture, only the fourth clap is in sync, the others aren't. And if you watch your first picture of the Pocket, everytime the markers are before the audio, only the third one is a fraction later. The part on the right side of the playhead is what you see and hear, not the left side.
(By the way, the 360 shutter doesn't effect this, but I've made lot's and lot's of test video's with several framerates and shutter speeds.)

Below you find six examples (Pocket, Ursa Broadcast en my Ursa Mini Pro) taken in FCPX. In FCPX you better see the part what you hear and see (the grey part right of the playhead)

A - Pocket 1 frame before audio and video hit:




A1 - Pocket audio and video hit in sync:




B - Ursa Mini Broadcast 1 frame before audio and video hit:




B1 - Ursa Mini Broadcast audio and video hit in sync:




C - Ursa Mini Pro audio hit but video NOT hit so NOT in sync:




C1 - Ursa Mini Pro video hit but audio PAST hit so NOT in sync:



Here is a Ursa Mini Pro 25P clip, please check the second hit of the clapperboard and play with the arrow keys one frame back- and forward, you'll notice that's it's not okay.

https://www.redscope.nl/MTB/Ursa25P-A002_03131118_C001.mov

Very strange: I'm a cameraman since 1998 and deliver recordings to all kind of companies and tv broadcasters and worked a lot with very different camera's. I've never seen such delay before on any camera.

It’s obvious that it’s off. Send the camera back or delay the audio, I don’t see many other options.

Good Luck

Benno, I am using a Motu UltraLite MK4 audiointerface and Adam speakers - so no delay from that setup.

Just to check this off as a possible source of error: you haven't set your UMP into Offset mode 25/25, have you?

Good question! I've seen such problems with the BMPCC when set to HFR at the project frame rate.

It’s obvious that it’s off. Send the camera back or delay the audio, I don’t see many other options.

Hi Howard, I've sent the files to Blackmagic and they "don't notice the problem", so they don't help me with it, see title. That's why I posted it here again so I hope can get help with users which will see this problem so I can again go to Blackmagic. When everyone is seeing this problem Blackmagic will know they are wrong and then maybe they will help me this time.

To delay the audio is not an option if you have to deliver the recordings directly to the customer. For instance for immediately broadcasting. Then there is no time for color correcting and correct the audio.
Also it is not a nice solution to delay the audio every time, the camera has a fault.

Just to check this off as a possible source of error: you haven't set your UMP into Offset mode 25/25, have you?

Robert I wish that should be the problem but unfortunately it isn't.... I have never used the offset mode and disabled the function key for that, just to be sure not to make any mistakes during shooting. I've always worked with broadcast camera's (last 11 years with my Sony PDW-700) and he don't have this option so I'm not used to use it.

Try again.

Try again.

I did it three times, I'm waiting now for their third response.

I havent gotten a chance to download the videos. But bein off by 1 frame should not be that big of an issue. Try setting up an interview. You don’t need to have an actual interview but have someone talk in front of the camera.

I did a quick test, but with the older firmware since I don't want to lose DNG.
Yes, I can see a delay of about one frame with ProRes at 25 fps, but definitely less than one frame with BRAW. The latter should be no problem at all, after export the result from BRAW is in sync without any correction.
ProRes might have some overhead.

But, after all, the UMP was never advertised as a broadcast camera.

P.S. My first test was a 25fps recording with a 180 degree shutter, so motion blur made it a bit difficult to identify the contact point. I did another one with 50 fps and 45 degrees. BRAW is absolutely in sync, I can even see the slight deformation at the frame of contact of the softbox I dropped, together with the sound.

In ProRes the sound is again one frame late, I can confirm that. But it seems to be a software issue since it's not a fixed amount of milliseconds.

Which format did you shoot?

But being off by 1 frame should not be that big of an issue

Yes it is an issue: when the audio was 1 frame too late then you wouldn't notice because in the "real world" sound takes more time to come to your ears than images. So our brains are used to it. But if the sound comes earlier to your ears than images, like my Ursa does, it's very strange. Look good at the two new movies I've posted below and you'll notice. Especially when filming an interview.

Yes, I can see a delay of about one frame with ProRes at 25 fps, but definitely less than one frame with BRAW. ProRes might have some overhead.

BRAW has also the same video-delay. Also when this fault was with Prores as you mentioned than all my other tested camera's should also have one frame video-delay but they don't. I've tested several camera's now and they are all perfect in sync except my Ursa.

I did a quick test and in ProRes the sound is one frame late, I can confirm that

Yes that's because you're camera is okay, but with my camera the audio is one frame to EARLY

But, after all, the UMP was never advertised as a broadcast camera.
Which format did you shoot?

I know the Ursa was never advertised as a broadcast camera but that doesn't matter, my Ursa is out of sync, other camera's not.
I shot in several formats, here again are two samples shot in Prores422, 24 frames, shutter 1/250. Now you can see it even better.
Pocket in sync:
https://www.redscope.nl/MTB/Pocket-24frames-A001_03211204_C001.mov

Ursa not in sync:
https://www.redscope.nl/MTB/UMP-24frames-A002_03301708_C003.mov

Sometimes the audio comes even more than 1 frame before the clapper hits.

Please look at the Ursa clip, play with the cursor forward and backward and you'll notice that you hear the audio before the clapper hits. And when you take a look at the Pocket clip you'll hear that my Pocket is perfect in sync like it should be.
And after that please confirm that I'm right, than I can go again to Blackmagic with several confirms of users so Blackmagic will help me with this problem.
Thanks!

Well we're a few months later and after lot's and lot's of e-mails and sending my unit to Blackmagic they FINALLY replaced my unit, pffff. In my opinion the support of Blackmagic is very bad; I had this problem from the beginning when I bought this in December 2019 and five months later it is solved. With good support this should only last one or two weeks.
Thanks all for your help!

Hi Bennoz - I've just got my G2 and I'm noticing the same thing, a 1 frame difference, sound before vision, but only in some clips. By the look of this thread I'm going to have to return the unit, is there antyhing you'd advise in order to make this process quicker?

Thanks in advance.

Mau.

Hi Mauricio,

I finally brought it to the seller and they solved it for me by contacting a ‘higher’ level of technical support.

Good luck, the first months I tried the support didn’t notice the problem. You have to sent a good clip which will show the delay. My advice is to record a 24 frames clip, then the delay is the most. And maybe you can point them to this thread.

Regards, Benno

Hi Mauricio,

I finally brought it to the seller and they solved it for me by contacting a ‘higher’ level of technical support.

Good luck, the first months I tried the support didn’t notice the problem. You have to sent a good clip which will show the delay. My advice is to record a 24 frames clip, then the delay is the most. And maybe you can point them to this thread.

Regards, Benno

Thanks Benno, gosh months to respond? This is going to be painful

I’ve just found this thread and wanted to offer my explanation for this supposed issue. For all those who may still be interested, this is not something wrong with the camera. Blackmagic isn’t ignoring you. This really isn’t a problem. I know that’s not what you want to hear but it’s the truth and the reason is very simple. It comes down to physics.

The reason I figured this out is because I also work with audio a lot. And I’ve gotten to know the ins and outs of how audio works when synced with captured video frames.

Take your shutter speed for example. Normal cinematic shutter is 180degrees or 1/48 of a second. That means you could take a single second and there are 48 possible slices in that duration where the image could be exposed. every other slice is a frame. And that’s where our frames are marked. But the other 24/48 of a second is not seen by the camera. The shutter is closed while time passes before we get our next 1/48th timed exposure.

Audio doesn’t have frames, it is constant. It is broken up into matching moments with our frames for sync. What this means is It’s possible for the actual clap to happen “off camera” between two frames. And all of your stills and posts before this one show this clearly. The audio is not out of sync with the video. The video did not expose the frame exactly on the mark of the slate. When you play your footage on the timeline and scrub by frame, you’ll hear the audio for that frame played only. So when you say you can hear the clap “before” the slate clapped, that’s not actually what’s happening. When you scrub, frame by frame, you’re looking at still images. But audio is not a still, it takes place over time. And when you scrub audio, would hear it for the entire duration of that single frame. 1/24th of a second. Or whatever you’re frame rate is. You’re hearing the audio of that moment play out, while staring at a still image that was captured a split second before the clap actually happened.

I hope this makes sense. I could upload some graphics that might explain this better if needed. If anyone cares about it two years later.

Cheers.

As I wrote, the camera had a defect, it's replaced by a new one and I've never had sync issues anymore.