The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

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Max Normandin

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The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 2:21 pm

Now that they're practically giving the BMCC at 1995$ with Davinc Resolve, I'm sure a lot of people like me who were waiting for the pocket cam are now confused as to which one to purchase.

This question is addressed to those of you who own a BMCC and shoot 2.5k RAW.

What is the actual cost of owning that camera and shooting Raw??

From what I've read, here is what I know you need to purchase on the side to make the camera functional:

Battery Pack - roughly 300$
External Monitor - roughly 150$
2x SanDisk 480gb - roughly 700$
external hard drive - roughly 200$ or more

I'm sure I'm missing a lot here... so please, share your personal experience shooting with the bmcc and the ACTUAL COST owning one.
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Panamatom

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 2:30 pm

Lenses?
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Max Normandin

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 2:32 pm

yes...
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David_

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 2:58 pm

Battery Pack - roughly 300$
External Monitor - roughly 150$
2x SanDisk 480gb - roughly 700$
external hard drive - roughly 200$ or more (3tb usb3 hdd is around $120. Holds about 6 hours of raw.)

SSD dock - $30-$50
Nd filter (I'm looking at the heliopan 77mm - $350

A few optional items:

Tokina 11-16mm 2.8 - $600
Sigma 18-35mm 1.8 - $799
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Jules Bushell

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 3:12 pm

For me, it's an endless pit. You can keep buying and buying, or renting renting.

Where you stop depends on your needs and/or budget. Orsen Welles described filmmaking as "the only art form where the artist cannot afford the tools". Some what changing nowadays. You may need good lights too, especially for cinema/broadcast quality work. A good set will cost more than the cost of the camera.


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Sean Talbott

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 3:50 pm

Max Normandin wrote:Now that they're practically giving the BMCC at 1995$ with Davinc Resolve, I'm sure a lot of people like me who were waiting for the pocket cam are now confused as to which one to purchase.

This question is addressed to those of you who own a BMCC and shoot 2.5k RAW.

What is the actual cost of owning that camera and shooting Raw??

From what I've read, here is what I know you need to purchase on the side to make the camera functional:

Battery Pack - roughly 300$
External Monitor - roughly 150$
2x SanDisk 480gb - roughly 700$
external hard drive - roughly 200$ or more

I'm sure I'm missing a lot here... so please, share your personal experience shooting with the bmcc and the ACTUAL COST owning one.



The cost of shooting raw is a relative question which heavily depends on what kind of shooting you see yourself doing. If you going to be hired by a client to shoot a commercial, web series, short film, PSA, music video or whatever it may be, you're going to have to put plenty of gas in the tank, per say. If it's going to be a hobby camera, your costs will be far less. I'll be providing the perspective of a working cinematographer in Los Angeles.

I've recently very meticulously priced out a 4k production package that settles right around $12,000. I'll try to summarize my thought process. Remember, you can always rent camera accessories too!

Batteries - Aside from the internal battery you're going to want at least 2 additional batteries. Unless you're planning on shooting only half days or being able to always run AC to your camera, you're going to want more power. 3 of the power base batteries should do the trick no matter what shoot you tackle, that way when one is draining, you have one on stand by, swap, and charge the dead battery, repeat. If you have only one battery, and you've exhausted that and your internal battery, what are you going to do, wait a couple hours to charge and start shooting again, not on a real shoot! You'll have your AD pulling hairs out. Expect to spend $600-$900 for batteries.

Monitor - You CAN go the cheap route here, but how important is focus to you? If your AC going to want to use some 800 x 400 rez monitor when shooting 4k? Maybe even more important than that is having an internal wave form monitor to see exposure levels, which only the $600+ monitors provide. If you want something just for a large visual reference go cheap, if you want something your ac will be able to legitimately pull focus on, and something you can expose to, you're going to want a Marshall, TV logic etc....Expect to spend $800+ for a pro monitor.

External hard drives - In my package I included (3) 2tb G-drives. If you plan to shoot a lot, and save your footage for a reel or what have you, that space will be eaten up fast! What's the point of shooting raw if you can't retain all your footage? Also, if you're smart you're making back-ups! In a meta-data world, BACK UP BACK UP BACK UP BACK UP. We aren't physically possessing film stock, only binary numbers on a spinning disk external hard drive, which have been known to fail. I'm not sure about how the numbers equate for the Cinema Camera, but, 2 hours of raw footage equates to 500gb with the 4k production camera. Expect to spend $700+ for storage. I own over 10 G drives, they're the best, and used by every DIT on set out here in HOLLYWOOD.

Computer - Maybe the most over looked item when trying to shoot raw. Look at the system requirements for the version of resolve that comes with a black magic cinema camera. I think you're going to need the latest version of mountain lion osx, not mention considerable CPU power to mess around with raw footage in resolve. Expect to spend $1300 minimum on a new computer, unless you already have one capable of pushing raw around. You can just shoot pro res, and color elsewhere, on a lesser computer.

Lenses - My my my, to do the camera justice you're going to need to spend at-least $1000 on glass, and that's going the cheap route. The cinema camera especially needs a very wide angle option to make up for the 2.5 crop factor. In general I like to have 20mm-100mm focal range / field of view for a standard 35mm sensor. That range can take care of most all shots on a shoot. You can always go used on ebay, or find a zoom that covers the field of view you need.

Other things to consider are a tripod, matte box, nd filters etc...It's always smart to build in a contingent of at-least a couple hundred extra bucks to account for things you won't think of.

To summarize, buying a blackmagic camera body is like buying a car without seats, doors, a stereo, windows etc....You'll need to outfit your camera to make it run like a car. I may have forgot a few items, but just wanted to share my thoughts on legitimately pricing out a camera package and shooting raw without feeling hand cuffed. I truly hope this helps!
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David Chapman

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 3:58 pm

This may help some people out there...

I had some gear carry over from my DSLR shooting. I didn't want to heavily invest in this camera and wanted to use it as small as possible. This is what I bought:

480GB SSD - Sandisk - $329
Thunderbolt cable - $29
Seagate Thunderbolt adapter (GoFlex) - $90
G-Tech 4TB Thunderbolt Raid - $599

I still haven't purchased a battery. I probably need to, but the way I've been shooting it hasn't been as necessary as it might be for some. I also don't have a backup drive. I offload after shooting. Red trained me well in this approach (expensive media).

I'm using my EFs 17-55 2.8 IS lens and a vari-ND from my 7D shooting days. I have a few external monitors and a BMD battery SDI to HDMI converter, but I rarely use it.

This is probably the most minimal setup for the BMCC, but it works for me—and fits in my backpack no matter where I go. I guess it also helps I have a retina Macbook Pro that's fast on the Raw processing.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 4:12 pm

David_ wrote:Battery Pack - roughly 300$
External Monitor - roughly 150$
2x SanDisk 480gb - roughly 700$
external hard drive - roughly 200$ or more (3tb usb3 hdd is around $120. Holds about 6 hours of raw.)

SSD dock - $30-$50
Nd filter (I'm looking at the heliopan 77mm - $350

A few optional items:

Tokina 11-16mm 2.8 - $600
Sigma 18-35mm 1.8 - $799


Non of this is related to raw shooting - you need the same stuff for prores/dnx shooting.

The only place where raw makes a difference, is in post. You need a fast RAID, a fast GPU (or better 3) and more archive space.
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Travis Ward

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 4:14 pm

Ryan Walters has a very thorough blog on examining actual costs of shooting, including a section on the BMCC: http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.p ... 5559567041
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Trevor Zuck

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 4:27 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:
David_ wrote:Battery Pack - roughly 300$
External Monitor - roughly 150$
2x SanDisk 480gb - roughly 700$
external hard drive - roughly 200$ or more (3tb usb3 hdd is around $120. Holds about 6 hours of raw.)

SSD dock - $30-$50
Nd filter (I'm looking at the heliopan 77mm - $350

A few optional items:

Tokina 11-16mm 2.8 - $600
Sigma 18-35mm 1.8 - $799


Non of this is related to raw shooting - you need the same stuff for prores/dnx shooting.

The only place where raw makes a difference, is in post. You need a fast RAID, a fast GPU (or better 3) and more archive space.


This.

Having thunderbolt is also nice so if your a Mac user some of this stuff will cost you more. the other place you'll have to pay for RAW is the SSDs. yes 2 480GB SanDisk Extremes is nice, but thats only 2 hours of footage. if you're doing an event or otherwise unable to offload footage you might need more. but if you think about the amount of computer storage space you'll need for 1 full length movie filmed in RAW its astounding. over 1000 minutes of footage. plus prores proxies, prores masters, and maybe a RAW or DCP master. just for RAW footage you're looking at over 8TB so 16TB RAIDed. that's the low end. if you're shooting 30:1 (30 minutes of footage for every 1 minute edited) you can multiply these numbers by 3.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 5:39 pm

30:1 :shock: what the....

I usually shoot narrative at an average of 5:1
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Richard Oakes

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 6:59 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:30:1 :shock: what the....

I usually shoot narrative at an average of 5:1


30:1 is pretty crazy!
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Hans Engstrom

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 8:18 pm

Darkfable wrote:
Frank Glencairn wrote:30:1 :shock: what the....

I usually shoot narrative at an average of 5:1


30:1 is pretty crazy!


Not that crazy trust me. The shooting ratios have gone up-up-up the latest 5 years with digital shooting becoming more popular. Last 35mm feature I worked on had a ratio of something like 15:1, digital tends to go far beyond that as no producer/production manager is complaining about the filmstock.

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georgetsirogiannis

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 9:40 pm

Sean Talbott wrote:To summarize, buying a blackmagic camera body is like buying a car without seats, doors, a stereo, windows etc....You'll need to outfit your camera to make it run like a car. I may have forgot a few items, but just wanted to share my thoughts on legitimately pricing out a camera package and shooting raw without feeling hand cuffed. I truly hope this helps!

Actually this is a fact for ANY camera, given that you work professionally (either with or without a compensation from your work).

Maybe these BM cameras, compared to others, make a monitor an obligatory item (since there is no in-camera waveform etc), but pretty much and other than this, it's the same for any camera, again given that you don't shoot just as a hobby.
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Randy Walters

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 11:17 pm

One can make a case that *not* shooting RAW carries a price of its own.

Shots you could have easily rescued in post may wind up being unusable in ProRes.

The increased need to get something approaching the finished look you want on the spot, in camera, may necessitate considerable futzing, and add additional hours or days of shooting time. The need for high-end monitoring on site becomes far more crucial when you're not just watching out for zebras.

It's legitimate to ask what's less expensive - SSDs and hard drives, or additional time and risk for you and your crew?
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Sean Pfeiffer

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostTue Aug 06, 2013 12:09 am

georgetsirogiannis wrote:
Sean Talbott wrote:To summarize, buying a blackmagic camera body is like buying a car without seats, doors, a stereo, windows etc....You'll need to outfit your camera to make it run like a car. I may have forgot a few items, but just wanted to share my thoughts on legitimately pricing out a camera package and shooting raw without feeling hand cuffed. I truly hope this helps!

Actually this is a fact for ANY camera, given that you work professionally (either with or without a compensation from your work).

Maybe these BM cameras, compared to others, make a monitor an obligatory item (since there is no in-camera waveform etc), but pretty much and other than this, it's the same for any camera, again given that you don't shoot just as a hobby.


I don't know where people get this idea that shooting with a BMCC is somehow more expensive than shooting with any other professional or prosumer camera with interchangeable lenses. DSLR's need a support rig for handheld work because unstabilized handheld footage from them looks horrible, and storage on a BMCC is actually cheaper byte for byte(at the appropriate speeds for shooting raw) than it is with CF or even SD cards(sandisk extreme pro 64GB sd cards with a speed of 95mb/s cost about $100 to $130 where a 120 gig SSD that is on BMD's list will run you about $150). The extras like monitors, EVFs, etc. aren't absolutely necessary for shooting with the BMCC and are just as important to professional shooting with it as with a DSLR or RED. In fact, the only thing that you really have to have which costs more than DSLR shooting is the batteries, and considering that the BMCC is about a thousand bucks cheaper(about the cost of three external batteries) than the 5DIII now but puts out a better overall image means that you more or less break even when it comes to cost. Hell, the fact that there is a MFT version of the BMCC means that you have access to far more quality affordable vintage glass than with many comparable cameras.

Hell, I don't even know where people get this idea that the BMCC is completely unusable for documentary or event shooting. There was a time when camera operators working on documentaries and event recording had no choice but to use big clunky cameras that weighed a ton, and that didn't stop them.
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Trevor Zuck

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostWed Aug 07, 2013 6:24 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:30:1 :shock: what the....

I usually shoot narrative at an average of 5:1


30:1 is the higher end. 10:1 is a good ballpark estimate for most films.
Apocalypse Now had a 95:1 ratio... about 242 Hours, or 121 Terabytes of BMCC RAW footage equivalent.

let that sink in for a moment.

*UPDATE*
Just checked with my editor and the last film I did couple weekends ago was done with a 14:1 ratio. short film 7 minutes long.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostWed Aug 07, 2013 7:36 pm

14:1 jeeeez - time to hone your directing skills guys ;)
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Trevor Zuck

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostWed Aug 07, 2013 7:50 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:14:1 jeeeez - time to hone your directing skills guys ;)

well when you only have 48 hours to make a film it's nice to make sure you have enough coverage. And I wasn't directing, Post Supervisor. Maybe next year, a man can dream can't he?

link to trailer:


Enjoy and remember it was written, filmed, edited, and submitted within 48 Hours.

Also note because of the tight deadline we filmed entirely in ProRes. one of the costs to filming RAW is extra time for everything.
- TZ

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sean mclennan

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostWed Aug 07, 2013 8:34 pm

I use 10:1 when planning/scheduling, allotting for 30% extra time in case of sh*tstorm. Most of my shorter pieces come in around 6:1 to 8:1.

I would say that time is the biggest cost when you are a working pro. You have limited time between project to spend in post. Especially if you are busy with meeting & consulting new clients and the rest of the business side of things.
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MovingImagesCEO

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Re: The ACTUAL cost of shooting RAW?

PostWed Aug 07, 2013 9:03 pm

Hello Everyone,
I'm a long time visitor to the forums, I was holding out for the pocket cam for quite sometime. After the BMCC price drop I decided to take the plunge and go for the BMCC MFT. I Mostly shoot independent music videos in the Atlanta area and I'm coming from a GH3 (Which I will continue to use).
I think the cost of ownership varies with the user and application. Coming from a GH3, I already have some manual MFT Glass and EF mount rokinon glass with adapters. I also already had a cage and plenty of rig parts to fashion a basic rig. I found the main investment to be in storage. Even in this case, I was able to go the cheap route to get started (OWC mercury extreme 120gb were only $150 a piece). I purchased the storage, cradle, and some audio adapters to use my Rode mic and that was it. So at a bare minimum I think you only need to spend a couple of hundred bucks in additional accessories to get going. I'm new to RAW and resolve so I don't see myself filming a full project in that format yet. However, my basic setup is enough to begin experimenting with RAW clips. So the sentiment that the camera is useless without thousands in accessories is a bit harsh. Especially, when you consider that the closest competitor in image quality is the 5DIII which is at least $700 more and it also requires lenses, rig, cards ETC. As far as batteries go, I do plan to get the switchtronix solution soon, but because I can split the shooting load up with my B-cam I don't think it is too critical right now. At the end of the day as film makers we will always desire more tools to make things easier but being resourceful goes a long way.

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