Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

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dondidnod

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Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSat Mar 14, 2020 7:02 pm

I recently had the opportunity to shoot a scene with a Panasonic DC-S1H camera. In between takes I snapped some shots with my BMPCC 4K for comparison.

The DC-S1H was set to HD ProRes 422 10 Bit Long GOP 100Mbps and used Leica Summilux-M 1:1.4/35 mm ASPH ($5895), APO-Summicron-M 50mm f/2 ASPH ($8795) and 90mm f/2.0 APO Summicron-M ASPH ($5095) lenses through an adapter set to around F/5.6. I set the BMPCC4K to HD Blackmagic Raw 3.1 using Voightlander lenses set to F/0.095 to F/2.8 with Tiffen Variable ND and Hoya IR cut filters. We used some canned fog and I thought the wider aperture would not cut out the fog on the BMPCC 4K while utilising the Voightlander's flaring character.

This shot was into the sun at 10 AM, about 30 degrees above so I set the Voightlander 17.5mm to F/0.95 or F/1.4 at ISO 4000 or higher to prevent sillouetting. This increased the noise and in contrast the 14 stop dynamic range of the S1H helped it's image. The S1H with the Leica Summilux-M 1:1.4/35 mm ASPH is on the top and the BMPCC 4K is on the bottom with the Voightlander 17.5mm F/0.95. Scroll down on the image to see the comparison.
PanS1H_S1T2_184Top&P4KV17Br31S1_S028Bottom.png
Panasonic S1H Top BMPCC 4K Bottom
PanS1H_S1T2_184Top&P4KV17Br31S1_S028Bottom.png (725.95 KiB) Viewed 1077 times

In this shot the S1H used a Leica APO-Summicron-M 50mm f/2 ASPH on the top and the BMPCC 4K used a Voightlander 25mm F/0.95 on the bottom at ISO 400. Scroll down on the image to see the comparison.
PanS1H_SI4T1_189Top&P4KV25Br31SI4_S040ABottom.png
Panasonic S1H Top BMPCC 4K Bottom
PanS1H_SI4T1_189Top&P4KV25Br31SI4_S040ABottom.png (618.87 KiB) Viewed 1077 times

I didn't have time to focus the BMPCC 4K properly on this one, so it's a little soft since I focused on the chair before the actor sat in it. In this shot the S1H used a Leica 90mm f/2.0 APO Summicron-M ASPH on the top and the BMPCC 4K used a Voightlander 42.5mm F/0.95 at ISO 400 on the bottom. The depth of field was so small on this full frame camera four feet from the subject that when he tilted his head forward his ears were in focus, but his eyes looked soft. I had to back off and abandon the extreme close-up the director wanted to allow him to have freedom to act. A M4/3 camera would have a deeper depth of field.
Scroll down on the image to see the comparison.
PanS1H_S5BT2_198Top&P4KV42Br31S6_S047Bottom.png
Panasonic S1H Top BMPCC 4K Bottom
PanS1H_S5BT2_198Top&P4KV42Br31S6_S047Bottom.png (657.46 KiB) Viewed 1077 times

Under the right conditions I am confident that the BMPCC 4K will make a good B camera to the S1H.

The guy who owned the Panasonic S1H camera dies at the end of the scene.

Were the results due to the camera or the lenses?

I'm going to go out and buy a lottery ticket. Once I get some of that good Leica glass, I'm going to demand a re-match!
Last edited by dondidnod on Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rick.lang

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Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSat Mar 14, 2020 10:40 pm

Perhaps I didn’t read your note correctly but I don’t know why you used ISO 4000 on the first shot. You need to expose for the gentlemen and don’t worry too much about the background.

It looks like the BMD camera was shooting Video and the S1H shooting Film mode.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSat Mar 14, 2020 10:56 pm

dondidnod wrote:I'm going to go out and buy a lottery ticket. Once I get some of that good Leica glass, I'm going to demand a re-match!


Hi Donald,

I’m going to stay out of a debate about the relative merits of the Panasonic S1H and Blackmagic Pocket 4K sensors and Leica and Voigtländer lenses. I’ll only comment that as someone who uses Leica primes, I may move from a Pocket 4K to the new Leica SL2, especially now that there’s an L-mount adapter for the Fujinon MK 18-55mm lens.

What I mostly want to say, given your reference earlier to Leica lens prices, is that if you want Leica lenses there are a lot on the second hand market in extremely good condition. Of my five Leica primes, the most recent was made in the 1990s, all were purchased second hand and I am very happy with both the build quality and the image quality.

Cheers
Last edited by robedge on Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim Giberti

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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSat Mar 14, 2020 11:17 pm

No offense, but how is this remotely, in any sense, a "shootout"?

It's hard to shoot the P4K camera under any reasonable circumstances and not get a quality image. It looks like the second images were shot with a potato :)

Maybe I'm missing something but it's like comparing a tree and a dinosaur or a baby and a rocket.
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dondidnod

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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 12:32 am

rick.lang wrote:It looks like the BMD camera was shooting Video and the S1H shooting Film mode.

You have a keen eye. I did not have a Lut loaded so I chose Extended Video so I could show the Director how it might look. She wanted to share the footage with other students who used Premiere 2019 without the Braw player to complete an assignment in a Cine Directing class. She chose to shoot the scene with the S1H. My job is to give her options, the Director is always right.

I set the ISO while looking at the ProRes 422 image of the faces to keep them from being silhouetted. I changed the BMPCC 4K to Braw 3.1 and noticed a big difference over ProRes 422, but kept the Extended Video setting. The S1H was using V-Log with a Rec 709 Lut.

I took the stills for comparison and graded them in Adobe Lightroom and then imported them to Premiere and took a screen shot that I rearranged in Photoshop.
Last edited by dondidnod on Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 12:32 am

BTW, there is no ProRes long GOP.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 12:49 am

Jim Giberti wrote:It's hard to shoot the P4K camera under any reasonable circumstances and not get a quality image.

I tried to warn her in the pre Production phase that I could not deliver an acceptable image shooting into the sun at that angle. It was a surprise that the S1H could, so the actor's camera won the contest and the Director did not want to re-frame the shot, like I asked her to.

The scene was inspired by the Voight Kamph test interrogation of a replicant in Blade Runner 2049. It was supposted to be a very smoky scene and I assumed that the Voightlander lenses would render it better. Maybe it would have had we used a fog machine and cigarettes like in the original.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 12:54 am

Uli Plank wrote:BTW, there is no ProRes long GOP.

I guessed that it was ProRes since it delivered 10 bit 422 .mov files.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 1:33 am

The S1H shoots one of H.264, H.265 or AVCHD depending on the selected options.

Specs here: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/ ... s1hDAT.HTM
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 4:35 am

There are flavors of H.264 in 422 10 bit, and .mov is just a wrapper. If the data rate is high enough, you can get very good quality from that.
I doubt that the sensor in the Panasonic has that much better dynamic range. The lens and inner reflections play a big role when shooting backlit situations.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 10:31 am

Not sure what these examples are trying to show due to too many variables in the setup but here's my experience.....
I have the S1 (same sensor minus OLPF). If I shoot V-LOG it matches quite easily with the P4k. The S1 has slightly more DR and significantly better low light / high ISO capability but there is a bit more tonal and colour 'fidelity' on the P4K and more flexibility in post when shooting BRAW. Also before I fitted the RAWLITE OLPF to the P4k the S1 had less moire. Apart from the obvious differences in sensor size they are well matched as an A and B camera with either one being and A or B camera depending on the situation.
Which is what I said, and even though this is what I was talking about, there is not too much comparison between your actions at the moment compared to some not around here.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 10:16 pm

John Griffin wrote:there is a bit more tonal and colour 'fidelity' on the P4K and more flexibility in post when shooting BRAW.

I agree.

The DC-S1H used a Leica 90mm F/2.0 APO Summicron-M ASPH lens on this test shot. I set the BMPCC4K to UHD Blackmagic Raw 3.1 using a Voightlander 42.5mm F/0.95 lens ($430 used) with Tiffen Variable ND and Hoya IR cut filters. This shot was around noontime and the IR pollution is more controlled on the BMPCC 4K.
The DC-S1H picture was posted on Youtube and compressed without grading. I copied it and did some light grading so the camera is capable of a better image. I am posting this to show the difficulty of focusing close over the shoulder with this lens on a full frame camera and to compare the bokeh. I also wanted to show that the Voightlander can get a sharp close focus. The wider 270 degree progressively longer focus throw all the way down to 0.23m makes it practically an 85mm macro lens equivalent. We were considering a rack focus but abandoned the idea based on the tests on the S1H.

The BMPCC 4K is on the top and the S1H is on the bottom. Scroll down on the image to see the comparison.
PanS1HLeica90Top&P4KV42Br31F28_C022.png
BMPCC 4K Top & Panasonic S1H Bottom
PanS1HLeica90Top&P4KV42Br31F28_C022.png (667.17 KiB) Viewed 703 times

Here is the same shot on the cameras focused on the subject. The S1H is on the top and the BMPCC 4K is on the bottom.
PanS1HLeica90LeonFocusTop&P4KV42Br31F28_C022.png
Panasonic S1H Top & BMPCC 4K Bottom
PanS1HLeica90LeonFocusTop&P4KV42Br31F28_C022.png (685.06 KiB) Viewed 703 times

Had the Director decided to do the rack focus using the beetle I think the BMPCC 4K with the Voightlander lens would have done a good job.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostMon Mar 16, 2020 6:35 am

Why is the WB so different between the 2 shots?
Which is what I said, and even though this is what I was talking about, there is not too much comparison between your actions at the moment compared to some not around here.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostThu Mar 19, 2020 2:13 am

Also you missed the focus on all the S1H shots, you seem to be focusing the S1H short, your hand is in focus, but not the insect in the frame.

Of course the S1H is going to have less depth of field then a MFT Camera with a lens of thenswme focal length.
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostThu Mar 19, 2020 6:27 am

John Griffin wrote:Why is the WB so different between the 2 shots?

I suspect that the S1H images have more IR pollution at noon than the sensor coating can handle. The BMPCC 4K had the advantage of the Hoya IR cut filter.

The owner of the S1H shot all 4 shots. I assumed that since he was familiar with that Leica lens that that was the best focus he could get at so close a distance. That shot was taken over my shoulder. I was holding the bug.

I made a fruitless attempt to match the skin tones from the two cameras. Here is the uncorrected image from the S1H using the Rec 709 Lut:
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Panasonic DC-S1H Leica 90mm
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Re: Panasonic DC-S1H vs BMPCC 4K shootout

PostThu Mar 19, 2020 2:27 pm

Unless you share the files and I see for myself, I’m writing this off as what the kids call “trolling”. With my worst mistakes I’ve never gotten an image that bad from any Blackmagic camera.

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