Blackmagic Forum

I've mentioned in other post, Toshiba will launch EXCERIA PRO a SDHC card that writes at 240 MB/s and reads at 260 MB/s. But still not sure if it will work with the BMPCC, somebody said it was something to do with the writing speed or something about the SDXC port.

balazer wrote:you can't distill card performance down to a single number. The cards are complex things, and their performance will depend on exactly how you write to them: writes of what size, how often, for how long, to a card in what state. And of course there are buffers, in the card and in the camera. Just because one card can support a certain sustained write speed with some host writing a certain way doesn't mean it will perform that way in the BMPCC the way the BMPCC writes to it.

Absolutely right. One should know that there are a number of different transfer modes or transfer protocols used in sd-cards, e.g. using 1-bit or 4-bit serial transfers at different clock speeds. Not all controllers (in the card and/or the reader/writer) support all transer modes equally well. It really is the _combination_ of card and reader that determines the transfer speed, so measurements outside of the camera are not very reliable. On top of that the transfer speed also depends on whether you write sequentially or have to write some blocks out of line now and then, e.g. updating folder data or adding sound-/meta-data to the stream.

Bottom line: you can't tell until you had the card inside your camera.

Next card:
Patriot Memory EP-Series 64GB UHS-1 works for ProRes with just 3-4 dropped frames in 40 recorded minutes.
I'll use these cards until we have raw-recording and then decide on a better one based on the requirements for reliable raw performance.

How do you check if the clip has dropped frames?

Is there a software for that?

Yu KF wrote:How do you check if the clip has dropped frames?

Is there a software for that?

Simple: the red "rec" symbol starts to flash as soon you a frame is dropped and doesn't stop flashing until the end of the recording.

Rafael Molina wrote:I've mentioned in other post, Toshiba will launch EXCERIA PRO a SDHC card that writes at 240 MB/s and reads at 260 MB/s. But still not sure if it will work with the BMPCC, somebody said it was something to do with the writing speed or something about the SDXC port.

Do you have references to back this up? I am very interested in reading more about this.

MarcusWolschon wrote:

Yu KF wrote:How do you check if the clip has dropped frames?

Is there a software for that?

Simple: the red "rec" symbol starts to flash as soon you a frame is dropped and doesn't stop flashing until the end of the recording.

Is there a way to check in POST?

DLMonak wrote:

DLMonak wrote:So is the "Blackmagic Speed Test" only for Mac?

No answer on this?
If it is not available for Windows, I can test my cards with H2testw

It's part of the software download package for the camera available here: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support ... rue&os=win

BMD lists the •Sandisk 64GB Extreme Pro SDHC UHS-I. I can't find this card in the market. I don't think it exists. There is the SDXC version but not SDHC. Not for 64GB. Can anyone verify that? I bought the SDXC 95MB/s one and I have problems. I don't get the red rec flashing for dropped frames but the footage definitely has some stuttering or temporary freeze affects, especially with 24 fps. with 30 fps it is much better but still there. Had anyone experienced that? Should I step down to the •Sandisk 64GB Extreme SDXC UHS-I? 80 or 45 MB/s. Any advice?

RayZee wrote:I bought the SDXC 95MB/s one and I have problems. I don't get the red rec flashing for dropped frames but the footage definitely has some stuttering or temporary freeze affects, especially with 24 fps.

The 95 mb/s card should be more than adequate for ProRes shooting, and the camera does also seem to think it's fine, otherwise you'd see the rec marker flashing. Could the freezing/stuttering you experience be caused by whatever software you use for reviewing? Or maybe you shot at shutter angles below 45° - that footage tends to look stuttery, especially at 24 fps (try shooting at 172.8° instead and compare). If you still think the recordings are corrupted: could you provide a short sample clip?

balazer wrote:This discussion is rather silly, because you can't distill card performance down to a single number.

Just because one card can support a certain sustained write speed with some host writing a certain way doesn't mean it will perform that way in the BMPCC the way the BMPCC writes to it.

If you want a rule of thumb, it's simple: buy SanDisk Extreme Pro cards from authorized SanDisk resellers. Time and again these cards have been shown to be better performers and more reliable than other brands.

This discussion has become about why most cards are dropping frames with the Pocket, not about which card is best, we all know the Sandisks are top of the line but when I have a card that can record 227Mbps in a Canon with Magic Lantern without dropping frames but that same card and a 172Mbps video is dropping frames on the Pocket, that points to a flaw in Blackmagic's design. We are just trying to find more information as to why this is happening so we can gauge if it will be fixed with firmware or if it's a major hardware issue that requires a hardware refresh :/

Rafael Molina wrote:One should know that there are a number of different transfer modes or transfer protocols used in sd-cards, e.g. using 1-bit or 4-bit serial transfers at different clock speeds. Not all controllers (in the card and/or the reader/writer) support all transer modes equally well. It really is the _combination_ of card and reader

Could you be a little more specific and expand on that? Are you saying that Blackmagic may have designed its controller to only support a transfer mode used in the top end Sandisks? I've read that Sandisk is using 3-bit multi level cell NANDs in 128Gbit(16GB) sizes, if that's true they would need a few more NANDs in their 64GB and 128GB cards which supposedly helps to increase random IO speeds and could explain why the 32GB Sandisk Extreme Pros were not approved.

Craig Seeman wrote:I've mentioned it before and it's exactly the same experience when the Sony EX1 started to use SD cards, It's not simply the speed of the card but, apparently, the controller built into the card. Some work better than others. Sandisk also worked unusually well with the EX cameras.

That's because Sony was working with Sandisk on the EX1's SxS media, so when they started adapting SD cards to the SxS port it was no surprise when Sandisk worked the best in an interface they helped design but at least they weren't the only cards that worked, other brand's faster cards still worked with the EX1. Why this would be happening again with Blackmagic and a standard SD card slot is the question.

Craig Seeman wrote:stick to the list - or forget the list and buy Sandisk SSDs and cards - I use them in the Pocket and the BMCs

I think some of us just can't throw money at problems without knowing precisely why.

Craig Seeman wrote:that write speed is perfect for marketing - bigger numbers always sale better and the average Joe Shmuck will never come close to them anyway, with his point and shoot box.

Actually we were talking about benchmark test results here but thanks for your thoughts about the average Joe Schmuck and marketing...

You're misquoting me . I'd never use the language or description in that last quote. I was quoting someone else and commenting on it.

Yes the controller makes a difference. It's not simply the speed. That's probably why people are seeing dropped frames on faster tested non approved cards.

I was using SDHC cards on the EX1 before they were approved… when it was considered a "hack." I have Sandisk Class 2 (yes Class 2) cards that have been working reliably with the EX1 for years. So much for speed ratings. BTW it wasn't only Sandisk cards. Two of the adaptor companies did test with many brands and others made the cut. What was clear was that speed alone wasn't an indicator of success. Some brands worked. Others failed. They determined that it was the card I/O controllers. They also noted that some cards source from multiple factories and the QC was variable (some cards from a brand designation worked and others didn't).

If you research the card history with the EX1, I'm seeing the same pattern with the BMPCC. It's not about the speed. The other variable is the I/O controller just as with the EX1.

PeterK wrote:Are you saying that Blackmagic may have designed its controller to only support a transfer mode used in the top end Sandisks?

Surely they didn't design the controller at all but licenced a third-party controller that fit into the rest of their design and delivered good performance in their testing setup - which might have used well known and reliable sandisk cards to rule out performance issues caused by the card itself. The whole concept of the BMD cameras is built around "standard" components like the ef and mft mounts, or the widely available nikon batteries.

Haha - just did a quick search on google for EX1 and SD card dropping frames - and guess what - this thread came up first

I am in the middle of cutting a 3,5 h Opera recorded with the BMCC and EX1s. Because I am having some odd dropped frames on the EX1 track. We used the Sony adapter and SanDisk SD cards rated at 45MB/s.
Never had dropped frames with the SxS cards.

Any tips which SanDisk cards are known to work with the EX1?

Hi Everyone, I just tried out a new Toshiba Exceria 64gb Type 2 card R 95 MB/s W 60 MB/s after reading a thread on this board, and it dropped a lot of frames every time I tried to record to it in Prores. I didn't even bother with RAW. I would advise against these cards.

So the only SD card which records flawless RAW is the SanDisk Extreme Pro Class 10 64GB?
Also the moste expensive one http://www.amazon.de/SanDisk-SDXC-Speic ... e+pro+64gb

Seems that way. At least this forum has not had one other card reported to work with raw... Hopefully a 128 gb (or larger) version of this card will be available!

Mac Jaeger wrote:Seems that way. At least this forum has not had one other card reported to work with raw... Hopefully a 128 gb (or larger) version of this card will be available!

At my User Group, I've gotten a report of the 80 MB/s Extreme version working for CinemaDNG capture (finally soon to be branded "Extreme Plus" with a yellow label to clear up inevitable confusion with the 45 MB/s version).

Coool! What is the exact product version and (prefereably) item number? I need to buy at least three of them, and i don't want to make a mistake here...

Mac Jaeger wrote:Coool! What is the exact product version and (prefereably) item number? I need to buy at least three of them, and i don't want to make a mistake here...

Straight from SanDisk: http://www.sandisk.com/products/memory- ... city=128GB

180eur for 128GB Extreme Plus vs. 105eur for 64GB Extreme Pro
http://www.amazon.de/SanDisk-Extreme-12 ... B00D6XX2PI

Wow, glad to hear confirmation on the 128GB 80MB/s cards and cDNG.
At $200 (US) each they're less expensive per GB than the 64GB Extreme Pros.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/9 ... 0mb_s.html

Craig Seeman wrote:Wow, glad to hear confirmation on the 128GB 80MB/s cards and cDNG.
At $200 (US) each they're less expensive per GB than the 64GB Extreme Pros.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/9 ... 0mb_s.html

Careful there, though: confirmation so far from one user of the 64gb 80 MB/s for CinemaDNG on the BMPC, and in this crazy world of secretive and inexplicable compatibility, there have even been reports of distinctions within the product lines based upon capacity. For example, someone was getting dropped frames from an Extreme 45 MB/s shooting ProRes at 128gb, while there's no problem at 64gb.

Paul, but the 128GB 45MB/s is approved for ProRes from Blackmagic.
There's nothing specific about the 80MB/s at all though.
I do realize there's no direct correlation between one size card at another at the same "marketing" speed (there are other factors like the controller used). I was under the impression that issues occurred with smaller vs larger cards at a given "speed claim." Maybe just conjecture on my part (wishful thinking) but if 80MB/s worked for a smaller card it would work for a larger card… but not the other way around.

Craig Seeman wrote:Paul, but the 128GB 45MB/s is approved for ProRes from Blackmagic.
There's nothing specific about the 80MB/s at all though.
I do realize there's no direct correlation between one size card at another at the same "marketing" speed (there are other factors like the controller used). I was under the impression that issues occurred with smaller vs larger cards at a given "speed claim." Maybe just conjecture on my part (wishful thinking) but if 80MB/s worked for a smaller card it would work for a larger card… but not the other way around.

I suspect that Blackmagic won't clear the air (or will take its time, well after we've figured it out ourselves and shared results). The long-awaited option, though, of a 128gb capacity for CinemaDNG will be well-received if the 80 MB/s 128gb Extreme Plus keeps up!

Hmm... thank you for the input. I might try the red/black labeled 80 mb/s 128 gb card once i got my camera, i'm fine if it works for ProRes, that's what i need most, but if it even works with RAW i'd be a happy customer!

Btw: the 80 mb/s card is sometimes listed as 60 mb/s writing speed.

AndiDieMaus wrote:So the only SD card which records flawless RAW is the SanDisk Extreme Pro Class 10 64GB?
Also the moste expensive one http://www.amazon.de/SanDisk-SDXC-Speic ... e+pro+64gb

I've also been using the 32GB version of the same card with flawless results. I think the 64GB is more practical though due to the increased capacity.

I just went ahead and purchased a sandisk extremem pro 64gb off amazon for $120 USD. I didn't want to waste anymore time trying out different cards. I looked for the 128gb extreme pro and i don't think it's available right now.

B&H is offering instant rebates on SanDisk SDHC and SDXC cards. Just ordered the 64GB/80mbs to try in the pocket camera. Total was $75 including shipping. This is cheaper per MB than the getting 128mb version.

Denny wrote:B&H is offering instant rebates on SanDisk SDHC and SDXC cards. Just ordered the 64GB/80mbs to try in the pocket camera. Total was $75 including shipping. This is cheaper per MB than the getting 128mb version.

And here's the 45 MB/s version which performs just as well for ProRes, at $58 shipped: http://bhpho.to/sdxtrme. Jury's out on whether the 80 MB/s version keeps up with RAW, anyway.

focuspulling wrote:

Denny wrote:B&H is offering instant rebates on SanDisk SDHC and SDXC cards. Just ordered the 64GB/80mbs to try in the pocket camera. Total was $75 including shipping. This is cheaper per MB than the getting 128mb version.

And here's the 45 MB/s version which performs just as well for ProRes, at $58 shipped: http://bhpho.to/sdxtrme. Jury's out on whether the 80 MB/s version keeps up with RAW, anyway.

Not so well I'm afraid, I had a few frame drops shooting pro res...in video mode.

i encountered an issue with the Sandisk Extreme PRO 95MB card with RAW shooting.

The ProRes works quite well however RAW shooting can't even get started(press shoot and REC flashes 1 second then back to Ready). It is definitely not a speed problem sine the only the folder was written into the card and nothing else. I think it should be a compatibility issue.

My card was manufactured by Sandisk Irish Factory.

Just a reminder as known issue for everyone.

Hello,
has anyone tested the Toshiba Exceria UHS2 sd card in the Pocket Camera?

Read: 260 MB/s
Write: 120 MB/s

http://www.toshiba-memory.com/cms/en/pr ... index.html

I know, numbers are not everything- I am just asking whether anyone has tested it.

Toshiba Exceria 64gb Type 2
Read: 95 MB/s
Write: 60 MB/s.

We can't generalise the experience of Toshiba Exceria 64gb Type 2 card - that it is not fast enough for pocket raw - for the other two Exceria cards, which are much faster than this one!

The average data speed from the other three Toshiba Exceria cards should be (much) faster.


The
EXCERIA UHS-II
Read: 260 MB/s
Write: 120 MB/s

the
EXCERIA PRO
Read: 260 MB/s
Write: 240 MB/s

and the
EXCERIA Type 1
Read: 95 MB/s
Write: 90 MB/s .

http://www.toshiba-memory.com/cms/en/pr ... index.html

As mentioned, just the speed data does not mean, that it works in the pocket camera.
Has someone tested these cards?

I don't want to burst the bubble here, but I have consistently experienced dropped frames shooting cDNG on the SanDisk 128GB Extreme Plus 80MB/s.

I will note that I have been shooting at 30fps, which might contribute to that, but the only card that I have purchased that works with any certainty (and I've really run the gambit of cards) is my 64GB Extreme Pro

richmondimage wrote:I have consistently experienced dropped frames shooting cDNG on the SanDisk 128GB Extreme Plus 80MB/s. I will note that I have been shooting at 30fps, which might contribute to that

This is consistent with other users' experiences. The 80 mb/s card seems to be just barely able to keep up with 24 fps, but drops frames at 25 and 30 fps. I wouldn't even trust it with 24 fps, because some cards slightly decrease speed when they fill up - you might probably get dropped frames even with 24 fps at the end of the cards capacity.

Mac Jaeger wrote:

richmondimage wrote:I have consistently experienced dropped frames shooting cDNG on the SanDisk 128GB Extreme Plus 80MB/s. I will note that I have been shooting at 30fps, which might contribute to that

This is consistent with other users' experiences. The 80 mb/s card seems to be just barely able to keep up with 24 fps, but drops frames at 25 and 30 fps. I wouldn't even trust it with 24 fps, because some cards slightly decrease speed when they fill up - you might probably get dropped frames even with 24 fps at the end of the cards capacity.

Yeah I'm not going to risk it. I bought another 64GB Extreme Pro for Raw and 128 Extreme 80mbs for ProRes. Thank God for cyber monday.

One thing I have noticed, is that my new MacBook Pro has had some difficulty reading the SD Extreme Pro cards when I do shoot in DNG. At first it didn't mount the card, then I used disk utility and it said the card was damaged and needed a repair, then when I tried to repair I got an error and said I needed to reformat. At this point I am freaking out because even though it was only a whopping 17 minutes that I was able to fit on the card, those 17 minutes were fairly important to me. I ran Disk Drill to recover the files, and finally after the scan is about 70% complete, my Mac decides the drive is mountable after-all and I can now access the files.

Since the computer is new (early 2013 MBP Retina), the card is new (and formatted) and the camera is new (BMPCC) I'm not sure what the deal is. Could the massively fragmented image files from the card be difficult for my computer to read? The shot was done all at once (at a concert). Has anyone else had similar issues?

Hi, I used a Sony SD XC I 64gb SDHC class 10 @ 40mbs shooting ProRes for a job and it dropped frames throughout the entire shoot. I formatted the card as instructed (Mac OS Extended). Has anyone else had any problems using Sony cards?

MauiPro wrote: Has anyone else had any problems using Sony cards?

Probably everyone would have, but noone is using these cards, at least noone reading this forum. The camera is very selective when it comes to sd cards, right now only the officially supported sandisk cards have been troublefree overall.

Yoda wrote:Toshiba Exceria 64gb Type 2
Read: 95 MB/s
Write: 60 MB/s.

We can't generalise the experience of Toshiba Exceria 64gb Type 2 card - that it is not fast enough for pocket raw - for the other two Exceria cards, which are much faster than this one!

The average data speed from the other three Toshiba Exceria cards should be (much) faster.


The
EXCERIA UHS-II
Read: 260 MB/s
Write: 120 MB/s

the
EXCERIA PRO
Read: 260 MB/s
Write: 240 MB/s

and the
EXCERIA Type 1
Read: 95 MB/s
Write: 90 MB/s .

http://www.toshiba-memory.com/cms/en/pr ... index.html

As mentioned, just the speed data does not mean, that it works in the pocket camera.
Has someone tested these cards?

I've tried toshiba exceria type 1 for reading RAW on bmpcc and worked without dropping any frame, so I recommend getting it and it's way cheaper than Sandisk extreme pro.
I wanted to try its type 2 for reading in prores but it seems it doesnt work. Shame.

For reading?
The problem is writing!
What framerate and duration did you record? How often? Fillup up an entire card?
deleted or formated the card before the next try?

No point in gambling with the Toshiba Exceria Type 1 cards; their biggest capacity is only 32GB and cost the same as a 32GB Sandisk Extreme Pro. (they are currently both about $60 on Amazon US).

MarcusWolschon wrote:For reading?
The problem is writing!
What framerate and duration did you record? How often? Fillup up an entire card?
deleted or formated the card before the next try?

Sorry, I meant to say "recording".

I did 23.976 in Raw and the duration was about 3minutes until I said "Cut". It filled up an entire card alright.
I deleted footage and recorded. I format the card once in two or three uploading.

And, PeterK, true. Toshiba Exceria type 1 doesnt have 64GB...which sux.
It seems that in Amazon.com sandisk extreme pro costs about the same with Exceria.
I use Amazon Japan. Sandisk cards used to be way more expensive. Now, they have Amazon specials and its costs about $60 where exceria type 1 is $50.
But, does Sandisk extreme pro 64GB do well in Raw recording?

YazTorii wrote:But, does Sandisk extreme pro 64GB do well in Raw recording?

The Sandisk extrem pro 64 GB 95 mb/s is the ONLY card that all users reported no problems with. Unless you can save big money with other cards, and until a larger capacity version is available, this is THE goto card for recording raw on the Pocket cam.

3 minutes is not enough even for a single scene. :/
Please try 25 and 30 fps a few times, would you?

Mac Jaeger wrote:

YazTorii wrote:But, does Sandisk extreme pro 64GB do well in Raw recording?

The Sandisk extrem pro 64 GB 95 mb/s is the ONLY card that all users reported no problems with.

I think he meant to ask if the 32GB Extreme Pro works well for raw, which there is some debate about since the 32GB Extreme (45MB/s) does not, but the Pro is on the official recommended list and there have been users reporting the 32GB Plus (80MB/s) working for 24fps raw. Either way I personally think 32GB is a little too short to be practical for raw recording and here in America the Exceria is only a few dollars apart from the Pro.

Kristian Lam wrote:Hi guys,

Why not just use the list we have on the Pocket Cinema Camera FAQ?

Frankly: The information you provide on this list is as poor as your customer communication or your ability on keeping release dates. I simply don't trust you. I have to buy a SanDisk Card for about 170$, open it and have to find out, that it won't work, because the FAQ are unprecise.

The Cards names change, why not adding the Part No. of the Cards? These do not change...

So here's an update about the PNY SD cards.

We spoke with PNY and found out that the PNY Elite Performance 32 GB 90 MB/s cards (with a red stripe) that we certified have been discontinued and are no longer available to purchase. The new line of PNY Elite Performance 32 GB, 64 GB, and 128 GB 90 MB/s cards, which have a blue stripe on the front, are currently NOT compatible when attempting to use the ProRes or RAW formats with the Pocket Cinema Camera. This model has been removed from the certified list and if these cards become compatible in the future we will inform the community.

Thanks for clearing that up Tony, but this is exactly why the official recommended SD card list needs manufacturer model numbers, the red stripe ones seem to be (P-SDH32U2H-GES3) and they are currently on Newegg for $60:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820178665

Which is the same price as the Sandisk 32GB Extreme Pro, currently $60 on Amazon US.

BTW the "blue stripe" ones that failed are (P-SDH32U1H-GE).

My cam wont even record at all in fact it behaves really strange been trying over one week just to figure out what's wrong. I've tried the transcend ddxc uhsi 64gb and did work a few times but I always had to do stuff like pull out the battery and or the sd card. Sometimes it would not work no matter what I did. Took the card back and go another card and it worked I tried it in the store. Came back home and it stopped working. Decided to surrender and made one more trip to town for a Sandisk extreme pro sdxc uhsi 64gb. I believe that is what is recommended right?

Made no difference I still cannot record?

I've had the cam for a week and all I've been doing is reading on the internet till my eyes bleed and driving back and forth to town.

I'm so freaking tired of this and I just do not trust that this cam is as good as they say. Hope I´m wrong I really do I wanna love it but it's getting harder and harder to do it.

Edit: I did they software update it was the first I did actually. Prores and both mac and win format

Thanks for the reply Geoff much appreciated.

Yes it is the right card and I tried both mac and win format. I am on mac though.

I just tried it again reformatting to hfs and nothing. I'm on camera utility software 1.6.1 the latest I believe.

Also there is no reason why it before with the Transend card with the same specs actually did work a few times when I pulled out the card and or the battery and put it back in. There is no logic to it as I see it.

Got to be a faulty cam they sold me but I´m so tired of all this that I'm gonna put it on the shelf and take the loss or just trash it. That's how it feels after struggling with this for over one week.

I really want to love it and I've been dreaming about owning one of these for a long time. Kind relatives gave me money for it on my 60 year birthday so I have a obligation to them to make it work or just pretend it does.

Well what can I say it sure is a very frustrating situation, I've been round computers since 1984 and streaming web tv since I believe 5 years or so so I believe I know enough to understand how it should work. So I really cannot see where I did anything wrong.