ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 12:06 am

Ok, so beside FBI meddling with asses outside domestic jurisdictions.

There seem to be some sort of problem with Prores RAW and it’s ability to change ISO and WB in post. Atmos assert that it’s done in a untraditional manner in final cut. Problem is, it seem to be done AFTER the final debayer run in post. This is not common to RAW behavior, but instead deliver results equal to what you expect from color grading processed files, like JPG etc. BRAW handle iso and WB the same way r3d and arriraw does it, giving much more flexibility. I’m guessing this issue will be dealt with in the future. But right now it seem less than flattering from a RAW format perspective. Maybe someone else can add some more experience with this issue?
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Kristian Lam

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 1:08 am

Ok guys, just a reminder to keep this discussion civil and on-topic.

Thanks.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 1:50 am

Kristian Lam wrote:Ok guys, just a reminder to keep this discussion civil and on-topic.

Thanks.


Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:Ok, so beside FBI meddling with asses outside domestic jurisdictions.

There seem to be some sort of problem with Prores RAW and it’s ability to change ISO and WB in post. Atmos assert that it’s done in a untraditional manner in final cut. Problem is, it seem to be done AFTER the final debayer run in post. This is not common to RAW behavior, but instead deliver results equal to what you expect from color grading processed files, like JPG etc. BRAW handle iso and WB the same way r3d and arriraw does it, giving much more flexibility. I’m guessing this issue will be dealt with in the future. But right now it seem less than flattering from a RAW format perspective. Maybe someone else can add some more experience with this issue?


Maybe part of this is that critical color correction and grading is not synonymous with Final Cut Pro but with Resolve. Until Resolve supports it and it is in a camera along with ProRes 4444XQ like URSA Mini? RED 8K? Alexa Mini? there isn't a clear way to test it. If RED is holding the IP cards then would RED be interested in putting ProRes Raw in Komodo? The codec needs an internal recording test bench.

I'm using CDNG 3:1 and 4:1 in URSA MINI 4.6K, mainly because I can swap to the new Color Science 4 in Resolve, the file sizes are lower than 4444XQ. ProRes Raw is offering a much lower file size than both. What information is being thrown away that you would would otherwise want to take advantage of in the Resolve color tab? Was it designed with preserving as much quality as possible or for smooth playback on slower machines?

My computer was purpose built for 4.6K RAW from Ursa Mini and its great, it will only playback 8K RED R3D 9:1 at half speed.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 7:54 am

Ryan Earl wrote:
Maybe part of this is that critical color correction and grading is not synonymous with Final Cut Pro but with Resolve. Until Resolve supports it and it is in a camera along with ProRes 4444XQ like URSA Mini? RED 8K? Alexa Mini? there isn't a clear way to test it. If RED is holding the IP cards then would RED be interested in putting ProRes Raw in Komodo? The codec needs an internal recording test bench.

I'm using CDNG 3:1 and 4:1 in URSA MINI 4.6K, mainly because I can swap to the new Color Science 4 in Resolve, the file sizes are lower than 4444XQ. ProRes Raw is offering a much lower file size than both. What information is being thrown away that you would would otherwise want to take advantage of in the Resolve color tab? Was it designed with preserving as much quality as possible or for smooth playback on slower machines?

My computer was purpose built for 4.6K RAW from Ursa Mini and its great, it will only playback 8K RED R3D 9:1 at half speed.


Ok, someone correct me if am wrong here. To my knowledge Prores RAW, at the moment, do not have the same flexibility regarding ISO and WB comparing to BRAW and other RAW formats. And as I understand it, none NLE software have this ability ATM even Final Cut. It’s about controlling the metadata as you expect with RAW formats. BRAW also have the ability to be compressed at higher level, which is useful in many cases.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 9:16 am

Those settings are not exposed in FCPX, but it's FCPX limitation. ProResRAW is a proper RAW data (ProResRAW SDK allows even to access RAW pixels skipping provided debayer), so you can do with it anything you wish (same as with RED RAW, Arri RAW BRAW etc). Another issues is that every camera manufacture has to pass rich metadata with RAW data to ProResRAW recorder in order for it to be fully usable. Same as every app like Resolve needs to know what to do with this metadata. Suddenly you'll have to deal with many different cameras which provide RAW, not just a few like we have now. This is quite a big change and everyone will need to catch up.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 10:04 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Those settings are not exposed in FCPX, but it's FCPX limitation. ProResRAW is a proper RAW data (ProResRAW SDK allows even to access RAW pixels skipping provided debayer), so you can do with it anything you wish (same as with RED RAW, Arri RAW BRAW etc). Another issues is that every camera manufacture has to pass rich metadata with RAW data to ProResRAW recorder in order for it to be fully usable. Same as every app like Resolve needs to know what to do with this metadata. Suddenly you'll have to deal with many different cameras which provide RAW, not just a few like we have now. This is quite a big change and everyone will need to catch up.


Yes, it would be surprising if updates can’t fix this in the future. But atm, and whatever production you make. This is not available. That’s my point.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 10:15 am

It's down to apps providers to decide to implement it or not (option is not provided natively in SDK as far as I understand it). They would need metadata coming as well in order to be able to handle it correctly. You need an initial value in header to tell you how file was shot. I know some companies had already looked at it.
There is quite a lot to be implemented/figure out for any RAW format which tries to be universal. A lot will have to change in apps like Resolve as well in order to have proper support.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 1:10 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Those settings are not exposed in FCPX, but it's FCPX limitation. ProResRAW is a proper RAW data (ProResRAW SDK allows even to access RAW pixels skipping provided debayer), so you can do with it anything you wish (same as with RED RAW, Arri RAW BRAW etc). Another issues is that every camera manufacture has to pass rich metadata with RAW data to ProResRAW recorder in order for it to be fully usable. Same as every app like Resolve needs to know what to do with this metadata. Suddenly you'll have to deal with many different cameras which provide RAW, not just a few like we have now. This is quite a big change and everyone will need to catch up.


So you are not able to adjust white balance and iso numerically in Final Cut but should be able to adjust color controls to get the same result?

From the ProRes Raw white paper when correcting without a lut: "No tone mapping is applied to the source, and the full dynamic range is available in the working space, even in libraries set to Standard color processing. Although highlights may initially appear blown out, you can correct this using color correction tools, such as Color Wheels and Color Curves."
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 2:44 pm

Yes, just a matter of usability. Different slider, different behaviour. People are use to "standard" ways, but at the end you have access to exactly the same data and you should be able to achieve 100% same results.
ProResRAW SDK allows you to access pure RAW data (just after decoding). You don't even ave to rely on debayering provided by SDK ( eg. Resolve could use own debayering engine for any ProResRAW file). If you have access to RAW pixels you have EVERYTHING you could ever have ( you just need metadata as well). Plain simple.
Every camera manufacture which allows RAW over HDMI should provide rich metadata as well. Then every tool need to be able to properly interpret all this info for every camera. This basically means it's not anymore as easy as few tabs of RAW settings like we have now in Resolve (as we have just few RAW formats tight to specific cameras). Other solution is somehow to "normalise" ProResRAW files from different cameras and present single RAW tab for all ProResRAW videos. It's all start to be bit more complicated as we are trying to use single RAW format for different manufactures. It's all still to come (if ever).
ProResRAW is nothing different than RED RAW or BRAW (well BRAW is bit covered up RAW, but this is also not really important). SDK allows for "quick" access to final debayered image (like in BRAW). You can do much more as well though, by using SDK just to decode RAW data from ProRes to uncompressed and then apply your own RAW processing. This is what Resolve can do for ARRI for example. It either uses ARRI SDK (so their debayering etc) or takes pure RAW and applies own math on top of it. Exactly the same can be done with ProResRAW (or any other RAW format which exposes pure RAW pixels). This cannot be done for RED for example as RED files are encrypted. RED SDK is the only way to get video out of their files, so you have to rely on it. Until RED did not introduce new SDK with good GPU acceleration there was nothing you could by yourself do to speed it up. It's good (as end results are repeatable regardless of the app), but also annoying as you can't take full control and introduce own processing.
All those youtubers' videos saying ProResRAW is not a RAW format as it doesn't allow white balance, ISO etc setting is very poor simplification of reality. They just can't be bothered to validate ( get to the bottom) what info they provide. Always treat those with huge distance. It's shocking how many video/processing experts we have now :lol:
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Howard Roll

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 4:28 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Other solution is somehow to "normalise" ProResRAW files from different cameras and present single RAW tab for all ProResRAW videos. It's all start to be bit more complicated as we are trying to use single RAW format for different manufactures.


It's one or the other right? If it's camera specific on the encode it doesn't need to be camera specific on the decode. Is the gamma/gamut for Prores Raw undefined?

Good Luck
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 6:04 pm

Yes, it's mainly about metadata, but I can see (just checked 1 ProResRAW sample) there is core one already passed.
Debayering, etc. can be the same for every camera (as long as all use standard Bayer pattern). RAW data has no gamma or gamut- this is carried by metadata part (as well as things like ISO, white balance etc.), which needs to be understood and properly handled by end application.
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Howard Roll

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 7:28 pm

Prores Raw isn't debayered, though that's not what I'm getting at.

Even 709 needs the proper encode/decode, it's given. My point is that to compress raw you're going need to know the source when recording. Not attaching the correct metadata to the file would be a baffling design consideration. Isn't that the whole idea of APR?

I may have made some assumptions about the functionality that are incorrect. What is the point of Z Cam, or anyone for that matter, incorporating APR if they're still tied to some external transform. Another layer of headache for no reason, may as well shoot log and Prores HQ.

Good Luck
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostTue May 19, 2020 8:48 pm

Yes, you record RAW pixels+ metadata and that's it. Nothing crazy complicated.
RAW pixels are easy- you don't have to care much about them. Just encoded as is and later decode them to uncompressed RAW. Rest of the magic is hidden in metadata, which tells how to get meaningful end results for Rec.709, LOG, etc. output. Problem is that each camera will have own math and approach how to get to the final image. This has to be implemented in end application like Resolve etc. and kept updated. This is probably the most difficult part. Other way would be to keep expanding SDK with info about every new camera supported, so then SDK could provide "final" video for given camera. This of course has its own problems (who is going to do it, keep track of all changes etc.). There could be also many SDK updates and integrators would have to keep updating it as well. At the end this is nothing different what we have now for BRAW, RED, Arri etc. It could be just way more often.
If you skip metadata you can still get an image, but it will be hard to get proper colors etc. In case of RAW metadata is a must. It has to provide at least core information to be able to get usable output from RAW data.

Who said ProResRAW is debayered? What is stored in file are RAW pixels. It's debayered by default when it comes out of SDK output.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 2:05 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:ProResRAW is nothing different than RED RAW or BRAW (well BRAW is bit covered up RAW, but this is also not really important)


I find the sentence a bit strange since its actually Prores RAW that many feel is going into the covered up basket, so to speak. It’s not news that several users have complained about Prores RAW and underwhelming results when it comes to WB adjustment in post. In that notion I feel It’s ironic that you say BRAW is a covered up RAW. Most of us know that BRAW is debayerd partly in-camera and partly on the computer. Covered up? Still, we have the ability to change ISO/WB with BRAW before the last step of debayer.

Btw. I’m not defending RED, ARRI or BM. I like Prores, and use it often. But I get from others that there are issues with ProresRAW and its ability to work as a supposedly RAW format. I don’t use FCX, so I can’t make judgment based on my own experience. I know this is controversial and may hit some buttons. But its not a big conspiracy.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 2:29 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:ProResRAW is nothing different than RED RAW or BRAW (well BRAW is bit covered up RAW, but this is also not really important)


I find the sentence a bit strange since its actually Prores RAW that many feel is going into the covered up basket, so to speak. It’s not news that several users have complained about Prores RAW and underwhelming results when it comes to WB adjustment in post. In that notion I feel It’s ironic that you say BRAW is a covered up RAW. Most of us know that BRAW is debayerd partly in-camera and partly on the computer. Covered up? Still, we have the ability to change ISO/WB with BRAW before the last step of debayer.

Btw. I’m not defending RED, ARRI or BM. I like Prores, and use it often. But I get from others that there are issues with ProresRAW and its ability to work as a supposedly RAW format. I don’t use FCX, so I can’t make judgment based on my own experience. I know this is controversial and may hit some buttons. But its not a big conspiracy.


pro-res-raw.png
From ProRes Raw Whitepaper
pro-res-raw.png (175.14 KiB) Viewed 513 times


I think it just goes back to Final Cut not including an expanded panel for ProRes Raw like it has for adjusting REDCode. There is a "RED RAW Settings" tab in Final Cut where you have kelvin tint and iso sliders. It is at least an option to run both R3D and ProResRaw through Final Cut to final export.

ProRes Raw is really waiting for software development. Apple Aperture had all of the raw adjustments for stills use and there are hold outs still using it, but they killed it with Catalina.

My question is whether including the option in a Zcam or Kinefinity Mavo 8K a rally point for the codec to pick up a broader user base? How well can it be supported long term?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 3:06 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:I think it just goes back to Final Cut not including an expanded panel for ProRes Raw like it has for adjusting REDCode. There is a "RED RAW Settings" tab in Final Cut where you have kelvin tint and iso sliders. It is at least an option to run both R3D and ProResRaw through Final Cut to final export.


Yep, in summary this is exactly the point.

Very first sample of ProResRAW I downloaded already has info about key parameters and it's really up to software manufactures to use them and give people more "standard" control over RAW:

Code: Select all
com.apple.proapps.manufacturer           : Sony
org.smpte.rdd18.lens.irisfnumber         : F1.0
org.smpte.rdd18.camera.shutterspeed_angl : 179.2deg
org.smpte.rdd18.camera.neutraldensityfil : ND1
org.smpte.rdd18.camera.whitebalance      : 4300K
org.smpte.rdd18.camera.isosensitivity    : 4000


It's all about usability as at the end you can get exactly same result using other "grading" related options. If app has well designed processing engine then RAW settings are meaningless from processing (and what usable data you can get of your source file) point.

Is Phantom Cine not RAW either? It has no ISO or Color Temp control in RAW settings. Few other RAW formats including BRAW have no ISO control. They must be not RAW either. I think I'm going to make a video about it :lol:
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 4:23 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Ryan Earl wrote:I think it just goes back to Final Cut not including an expanded panel for ProRes Raw like it has for adjusting REDCode. There is a "RED RAW Settings" tab in Final Cut where you have kelvin tint and iso sliders. It is at least an option to run both R3D and ProResRaw through Final Cut to final export.


Yep, in summary this is exactly the point.

Very first sample of ProResRAW I downloaded already has info about key parameters and it's really up to software manufactures to use them and give people more "standard" control over RAW::


Ok.. So let me get this straight... The notion is. Everybody who didn’t find a tab with kelvin and iso sliders in FCX thought “hay! It’s not RAW”, and start complaining that they can’t adjust WB with prores RAW. Is that what you believe Andrew? A Yes or no should be good enough.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 4:46 pm

This is from Jeremy Young of Atomos "Now, we record a lot of metadata—white balance, ISO, camera information, etc. It is frame by frame, pixel by pixel, line by line data that is in the file—it just isn’t being read in the post-production applications as yet. We will be able to add those capabilities as we work with new cameras, but over time it must be enabled by the software makers to be able to read it. So that’s where we’ll see a plethora of tools opening up for the ProRes RAW ecosystem."

I imagine some of it is "hey where is the slider?" The software tools aren't there yet for the majority of users to use easily as they are already used to with other codecs.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 5:11 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Ryan Earl wrote:I think it just goes back to Final Cut not including an expanded panel for ProRes Raw like it has for adjusting REDCode. There is a "RED RAW Settings" tab in Final Cut where you have kelvin tint and iso sliders. It is at least an option to run both R3D and ProResRaw through Final Cut to final export.


Yep, in summary this is exactly the point.

Very first sample of ProResRAW I downloaded already has info about key parameters and it's really up to software manufactures to use them and give people more "standard" control over RAW::


Ok.. So let me get this straight... The notion is. Everybody who didn’t find a tab with kelvin and iso sliders in FCX thought “hay! It’s not RAW”, and start complaining that they can’t adjust WB with prores RAW. Is that what you believe Andrew? A Yes or no should be good enough.


Exactly. It's all poor, too quick "internet" assumption and judgement based on lack of sliders, not real understanding and info.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 5:16 pm

But, the bottom line is while ProResRaw is being used with several cameras, this still basically Beta testing, as the supporting software (FCPX) is not able to fully use the codec data to allow full control over the image. Until full NLE support is implemented, ProResRaw is not completely useable for production work.
Cheers
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 5:24 pm

My guess is, a moderately competent grader could get what amounts to raw functionality out of Proresraw, but it's odd that the software support is so poor. Apple's own NLE can't do it, and the plugin just made available for Premiere can't either. And it's two years now(?)
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 5:36 pm

How often do you touch RAW settings?
I assume everything can be done just with grading sliders.
I would still take ProResRAW over h264/5 out of Panasonic etc. The biggest issue for me is in most cases need of an external recorder, but once format like BRAW or ProResRAW is in all prosumer cameras you get another level of quality.

Atm. everyone just takes ProResRAW SDK, implements it as is quickly to get "some image" and done :D Next day you have big news- we support ProResRAW :)
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Wed May 20, 2020 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Paines

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 5:39 pm

The only raw tab variable I ever look at is WB, but this is how raw is marketed.... People expect these controls, even if it's mostly voodoo. And some graders do use them.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 5:42 pm

If you know what is your base setting then you can adjust it with temp slider on grading page. I don't believe it will be anyway limited compared to RAW slider (but I may be wrong).
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 5:47 pm

John Paines wrote:My guess is, a moderately competent grader could get what amounts to raw functionality out of Proresraw, but it's odd that the software support is so poor. Apple's own NLE can't do it, and the plugin just made available for Premiere can't either. And it's two years now(?)


For what it's worth, Apple is coming out with a new version of FCPX, as evidenced by an update buried in the release notes last week for Logic Pro 10.5, which states that FCPX XML version 1.9 is now imported correctly. But XML v. 1.9 hasn't been released yet; the current version (unchanged since 2018) is 1.8.

They've released several updates to FCPX in the past two years without updating the XML version, so presumably this implies a fairly significant update. There might be better Prores Raw options in the new version of FCPX but we'll see...
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John Paines

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 5:59 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If you know what is your base setting then you can adjust it with temp slider on grading page. I don't believe it will be anyway limited compared to RAW slider (but I may be wrong).


With BMD footage, I satisfied myself in the past that I could color balance Prores HQ (manually) as well as cDNG (raw tab), but it did take a bit more work. The larger the WB shooting error, the more difficult it becomes. The WB control is definitely worth having, if only as a starting point.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 6:00 pm

Carlos Garcia-Diaz wrote:Also worthy to note that Kinefinity does not sell cameras in the US. Why would a product that is manufactured/sold in China and therefore breaking no enforceable patent in that country not be able to be sold in the US?


Kinefinity DOES sell cameras in the US -- though it only established a relationship with a dealer in the US recently. There are Kinefinity cameras floating around here, most purchased directly from Kinefinity.

Having a rental, service and sales partner in Burbank is probably going to make Kinefinity cameras more popular in these parts.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 6:02 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Atm. everyone just takes ProResRAW SDK, implements it as is quickly to get "some image" and done :D Next day you have big news- we support ProResRAW :)


For those used to working with ProRes, it was pretty much the same as before except the files were smaller :)
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 7:22 pm

Out of interesting theoretic discussing, what is really practical value of titled topic for users - especially for those (majority?) not-so-close located to few main ZCAM store bases?
Imho, struggling with software implementation especially after brilliant campaign and widely professional adopting of BRAW, without (sadly) proper distribution network, being (even more sadly) sold pricier than BM offer - it seems to me that ZCam at the moment has just such relevant-proportional market impact/usage: as potential stimulus to BM to proceed with innovative thinking and better quality control.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 7:50 pm

John Paines wrote:My guess is, a moderately competent grader could get what amounts to raw functionality out of Proresraw, but it's odd that the software support is so poor. Apple's own NLE can't do it, and the plugin just made available for Premiere can't either. And it's two years now(?)


Yeah, I've found that pretty strange too.

I do think that there had been uncertainty because of the behind the scenes things and that's stopped the development. As you say it's bizarre that even Apple don't even offer any raw control in post so long after launch.

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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 8:56 pm

Denny Smith wrote:But, the bottom line is while ProResRaw is being used with several cameras, this still basically Beta testing, as the supporting software (FCPX) is not able to fully use the codec data to allow full control over the image. Until full NLE support is implemented, ProResRaw is not completely useable for production work.
Cheers


Agree. That is exactly my point also. Right now it’s underwhelming.
Tomorrow, maybe not so much.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 9:00 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Exactly. It's all poor, too quick "internet" assumption and judgement based on lack of sliders, not real understanding and info.


I think that is an arrogant way to look at it. There are also professionals stating this. Users of FCPX. Not only kids making internet assumptions.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostWed May 20, 2020 9:33 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:But, the bottom line is while ProResRaw is being used with several cameras, this still basically Beta testing, as the supporting software (FCPX) is not able to fully use the codec data to allow full control over the image. Until full NLE support is implemented, ProResRaw is not completely useable for production work.
Cheers


Agree. That is exactly my point also. Right now it’s underwhelming.
Tomorrow, maybe not so much.


There is still a lot to think about and later implement. Another long mile is to get software providers to start developing things around format. Without this it will never succeed.
BM should not wait and push BRAW to be adopted by others. This would create strong format which would help BM products as well.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostThu May 21, 2020 12:11 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:There is still a lot to think about and later implement. Another long mile is to get software providers to start developing things around format. Without this it will never succeed.
BM should not wait and push BRAW to be adopted by others. This would create strong format which would help BM products as well.


Yes. Appel introduced prores raw back in 2018? and we are still in this limbo.

I think BM actually listen to the customer in a whole different level, and jump on behalf of the professional marked. Appel, IMO, look at it from a sellers to consumer-marked. Prores is a strong name, and they know it. Most users(consumers) automatically assume that their new product equal quality. Maybe we are looking at similar stuff that happened to final cut. Maybe we are actually looking at the next format fixed on the steaming marked, “because this RAW format is easy to handle, not complicated, no more this(iso) and that(WB)”. I believe Appel can be arrogant enough to change the game when most are not willing. Like removing important assets (lose control), because it will benefit their own products later down the chain line. Ironically I could be wrong and see it as a big benefit in the future. Who knows. Quality and efficiency are both important, but the later tend to produce more money in today’s marked.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostThu May 21, 2020 12:56 am

Image

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostThu May 21, 2020 8:45 pm

Adobe just pushed an update for Premiere Pro and Media Encoder with support for Apple ProRes RAW. Installing now. Don't have any media to see what this looks like in practice.

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostThu May 21, 2020 9:27 pm

It looks like in FCPX. They use bare minimum when it comes to implementation. They don't even show you metadata which is in file. Scratch shows all metadata, so at least you can check some info how camera was setup.
It means that in most cases you have quite bad start point.
Apple is also letting for Adobe to use afterburner card acceleration (not working for ProResRAW yet, just for normal one).
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostFri May 22, 2020 12:19 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It looks like in FCPX. They use bare minimum when it comes to implementation. They don't even show you metadata which is in file. Scratch shows all metadata, so at least you can check some info how camera was setup.
It means that in most cases you have quite bad start point.
Apple is also letting for Adobe to use afterburner card acceleration (not working for ProResRAW yet, just for normal one).


Yes, I see. I downloaded a sample ProRes RAW clip from 2018 (Original files © 2018, Claus @ https://filmplusgear.com).

You get an error the first time you try to playback the ProRes RAW clip in Premiere Pro because you need the Apple ProRes RAW decoder for Windows, which Adobe makes clear is not licensed or supported by Adobe. You also have to select a CUDA renderer.

Apple can't be bothered to even list itself as the publisher of the ProRes RAW for Windows installer. It says "unknown publisher", which gives Windows Defender a conniption fit, as it probably should, when you go to install it.

I'm not an expert and very well could be missing something. Here's what I see with the basic Lumetri panel.
Steve
Attachments
PremierePro-ProResRAW-screenshot.jpg
Premiere Pro with ProRes RAW support 2020-05-21
PremierePro-ProResRAW-screenshot.jpg (525.59 KiB) Viewed 276 times
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:18 pm

And this is your start point. My sample worked fine, speed seems to be very good on 1080Ti, but it still needs a lot of polishing.
Same as here:
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:42 pm

I still do not get it - why would I want to shoot in ProResRAW instead of the RAW format that my camera is capable of now and which is already supported by most of the NLEs? Be it braw, arriraw, redcode, etc? OK, it is beneficiary to have ProResRAW support in the NLE, but if it is not now? Where is the point of no return? Why should I bother?
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostFri May 22, 2020 11:41 pm

Because tons of other cameras have no RAW support?
For some of them RAW is definitely another quality level than internal h264 output.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostFri May 22, 2020 11:46 pm

Steve Holmlund wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It looks like in FCPX. They use bare minimum when it comes to implementation. They don't even show you metadata which is in file. Scratch shows all metadata, so at least you can check some info how camera was setup.
It means that in most cases you have quite bad start point.
Apple is also letting for Adobe to use afterburner card acceleration (not working for ProResRAW yet, just for normal one).


Yes, I see. I downloaded a sample ProRes RAW clip from 2018 (Original files © 2018, Claus @ https://filmplusgear.com).

You get an error the first time you try to playback the ProRes RAW clip in Premiere Pro because you need the Apple ProRes RAW decoder for Windows, which Adobe makes clear is not licensed or supported by Adobe. You also have to select a CUDA renderer.

Apple can't be bothered to even list itself as the publisher of the ProRes RAW for Windows installer. It says "unknown publisher", which gives Windows Defender a conniption fit, as it probably should, when you go to install it.

I'm not an expert and very well could be missing something. Here's what I see with the basic Lumetri panel.
Steve


Raw controls are in the master tab under effects controls on the top left of your image.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostSat May 23, 2020 9:47 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Because tons of other cameras have no RAW support?
For some of them RAW is definitely another quality level than internal h264 output.


I am sorry if I did not make myself clear: what would be the advantage for someone shooting in ProResRAW in BMD camera instead of BRAW, as it was stated as a "problem" in the original post? Do not get me wrong - I'd like to have the OPTION to shoot in ProResRAW and I'd LOVE to have the ability to process ProResRAW in Resolve but if you are even a hobbyist (as I am) you most probably have a camera that shoots in some flavour of RAW format already supported by your NLE of choice... Think of DNG - it is nice, it is usable, but how many still cameras that you own can shoot in DNG? Even if it can do it - do you shoot in DNG?
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostSat May 23, 2020 10:24 am

If camera has a RAW format then another one in most cases brings not much, but there is a case though when it can be useful. For example RED’s format can be pain due to its JPEG2000 nature. If you could shoot internally other format which is much easier to work with then this would still make sense to use it. Compared to BRAW it’s very similar so only reason could be that you are FCPX user and want to use it (there is no BRAW support).
ProResRAW or BRAW are rather formats for cameras with not well established RAW option. Again though, even for ARRI ProResRAW could make sense as it’s much smaller and still good enough quality.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostSat May 23, 2020 4:18 pm

christianscott wrote:
Raw controls are in the master tab under effects controls on the top left of your image.


Ok, thanks for pointing that out. I see an exposure slider, which can be keyframed.

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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostSat May 23, 2020 4:36 pm

With the Mac Pro's Afterburner Card, and Premiere supporting the formate now, it makes sense for Blackmagic to also support the formate, since they already support the other ProRes standards. Final Cut and ProRes might be also coming to the iPad Pros this year as well, or next, which I doubt will ever get BRAW support. At least not for years.

Really though, I just want a new Micro Cine camera in 4K. I do want to own both cameras, since having one that's smaller and easier to fit in smaller places in a benefit next to the GameGear sized Pocket 4k.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostSat May 23, 2020 5:30 pm

Or a Micro Cinema Camera that is between the Pocket 4K and existing Micro, with the MFT size sensor, which no doubt will be the same sensor as the PC4K.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostSat May 23, 2020 5:42 pm

Chris, Afterburner has not yet been updated to run ProRes raw AFAIK so Premiere Pro and Affect Effects currently limited by the hardware’s firmware to ProRes on the Afterburner.
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ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostSat May 23, 2020 6:51 pm

danielpanev wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Because tons of other cameras have no RAW support?
For some of them RAW is definitely another quality level than internal h264 output.


I am sorry if I did not make myself clear: what would be the advantage for someone shooting in ProResRAW in BMD camera instead of BRAW, as it was stated as a "problem" in the original post? Do not get me wrong - I'd like to have the OPTION to shoot in ProResRAW and I'd LOVE to have the ability to process ProResRAW in Resolve but if you are even a hobbyist (as I am) you most probably have a camera that shoots in some flavour of RAW format already supported by your NLE of choice... Think of DNG - it is nice, it is usable, but how many still cameras that you own can shoot in DNG? Even if it can do it - do you shoot in DNG?
This isn’t the point. Personally, I wouldn’t use ProRes Raw with a Blackmagic camera. The original statement was made because:

an already very capable camera (ZCAM)
in a desirable form factor (4x4x4)
that didn’t previously have a functional/convenient Raw option (ZRAW), now has one... (ProRes Raw)

That’s it.

It’s a problem because a lot of ppl like me (low budget music video dp) who are currently shooting BM, want a box form factor that shoots Raw in 4K 60p. There were none, until now.
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Re: ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

PostSat May 23, 2020 7:21 pm

Que Thompson wrote:
It’s a problem because a lot of ppl like me (low budget music video dp) who are currently shooting BM, want a box form factor that shoots Raw in 4K 60p. There were none, until now.


Doesn't the Z cam shoot ZRAW ? Which is internal raw recording ?

You'd rather ProRes RAW externally recorded ? Does it do 60K RAW externally recorded to ProRes ? Doesn't that affect the way you use a "box" style camera ?

Komodo will also have REDCODE.

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