ZCAM now has ProRes Raw

It’s a problem because a lot of ppl like me (low budget music video dp) who are currently shooting BM, want a box form factor that shoots Raw in 4K 60p. There were none, until now.

Doesn't the Z cam shoot ZRAW ? Which is internal raw recording ?

You'd rather ProRes RAW externally recorded ? Does it do 60K RAW externally recorded to ProRes ? Doesn't that affect the way you use a "box" style camera ?

Komodo will also have REDCODE.

JB

I see you didn’t read what I wrote.

All of these cameras need external monitors.

Yes, it does 4K 60.

[

All of these cameras need external monitors.

But not recording ones.

External recording seems clumsy to me. It means you're relying on a HDMI connection.

You could just have a transmitter for example if it wasn't a recording requirement.

If it can really do 12 bit @ 60 FPS 4K then that is impressive over HDMI.

JB

Why is it so impressive?
HDMI has plenty bandwidth and RAW is 1/3 of RGB//YUV so you can push a lot (for UHD it’s probably around 180fps for 12bit). With next wave of cameras based on HDMI 2.1 we can pass 100fps for 8K. Cables are short so no problem with signal stability. I still agree that any external recorder is always a compromise though.

Perhaps it’s a facetious comment.

Who here hasn’t had a problem with a HDMI connection ?

HDMI is a bi-directional comms. It’s not just a cable.

As I understand there’s a handshake involved. That’s why you get v1.3 etc.

It’s really a lot more fragile than SDI.

The connectors are designed for far less duty cycles.

There are 19 connectors in a HDMI port.

The cables are far more prone to failure because they are multi stranded.

I think it’s well established that SDI is far simpler and a lot more robust because it doesn’t have these same issues.

It’s not about the tech specs. But about the real world practicality. HDMI is a consumer home standard that’s unfortunately out of its depth but nevertheless is what we’re using here.

This is why external recording doesn’t make sense to me. If it’s a monitor that spats in the middle of a take no harm done, but if you’re recording external you killed a take.

JB

You are talking about copy protection which cameras don't even touch as there is no such a need.
It's about tech spec as you need a lot of bandwidth to pass RAW data for this new high resolution sensors.
Yes- it's not a durable plug etc. as it was never designed with idea "to be in the field". It can easily work though for prosumer market. Plugs can be improved if there is such a big need. You could even get eg. new special plug in HDMI 2.2 spec for "in filed use". Bigger problem would be a cable length, but fortunately in this case this is not an issue.
Also nothing stops camera manufactures to actually put SDI plug and pass data this way (although even 12G standard is slow these days). SDI is really not up to date as a pro high-tech format. SMPTE took few years to come up with 12G standard (even if they already had core from the past specs).

You are talking about copy protection which cameras don't even touch as there is no such a need.

I don't know how it works on ProRes RAW in this implementation. But every single time you plug in a HDMI device to another HDMI device, they aren't just a cable connection. They have to handshake and initiate a connection. It's more complex and it's TWO WAY coms.. It's a "smart" connection, where as SDI is a "dumb" connection.

I'm just saying HDMI is a pretty bad choice to rely upon, especially for recording as opposed to monitoring, where a momentary "un-sync" isn't a show stopper.

JB

Handshake is related to HDCP, which ensures that device A is allowed to send full quality signal to device B.
There is absolutely 0 reason for using HDCP between camera and recorder, so there should be no problems like "handshake". It should be only related to copy protected signals, so connections like BD player-->TV, etc.
Most (probably all with HDMI certification) recorders are not allowed to record HDCP protected signals.

Most (probably all with HDMI certification) recorders are not allowed to record HDCP protected signals.

I don't know Andrew. I'm not a HDMI expert.

I do know that HDMI sucks for many reasons.

One of them is the fact that each time you plug it in (for WHATEVER THE REASON) it's a network two way connection which is also a reason it's less reliable. Maybe they're avoiding one of the many pitfalls in the way it's being used on ProRes RAW.

But I doubt it because the camera still has to talk to the recorder and back again.

That's not what happens with SDI.

JB

I'm not an HDMI export either, but you may be very wrong with this "2 way talking". 2 way talking (when we forget about HDCP) may be just in first moment to initialise connection (SDI also has signal locking mechanism). Later it may be also just "push data" approach as well. It's definitely easy to implement protocol, which is key point for those prosumer devices. It has been been already used by many and I have not seen any wave of complains which could suggest it's unusable.

It has been been already used by many and I have not seen any wave of complains which could suggest it's unusable.

Then you and I differ in that view. Time will tell us how well it works here in this mode.

JB

It has been been already used by many and I have not seen any wave of complains which could suggest it's unusable.

I know I'm not alone in this, but I have had recordings lost because of temporarily dropped HDMI connections. The fact that HDMI doesn't have a lock is enough to ruin it for a lot of applications.

Some devices have locks, which are probably great idea.

Here’s the new Z CAM E2-M4 shoe that dropped today. ProRes raw is only part of the story which is quite relevant to those considering the Pocket cameras:


https://www.cinema5d.com/cam-e2m4-camer ... e-dropped/


https://www.provideocoalition.com/z-cam ... ma-camera/


https://www.4kshooters.net/2020/05/25/z ... announced/

Nice one Rick, looks like ZCam is stepping up the game another notch...
Cheers

6K Full Frame for 4K? ProRes Raw externally... Is it becoming a problem now?

6K Full Frame for 4K? ProRes Raw externally... Is it becoming a problem now?

I really don't understand what you're trying to ask.

What do you define as a "problem" ?

JB

I really don't understand what you're trying to ask.

What do you define as a "problem" ?

JB

A problem for Blackmagic's market share.

1-$5k cinema camera.

I don't see those who are buying an UMP because it has SDI in/out being persuaded to switch, or those who are truly doing commercial work. However, I personally believe that the majority of BM's customers are people like me. We are the life's blood of this industry. Everyday people who are willing to spend $2500 to shoot high quality, near cinema footage. We range from teenagers to middle aged family men/women. We shoot music videos, fashion videos, social media content, graduation, weddings, and more. We don't have a lot of money, but we know quality when we see it. We're not on set with 30 people helping. We're on "set" by ourselves trying to get the best shot possible with what we have. We don't have all the lights, we don't always have the perfect tool for a particuar shot, but we get it done.


I think with the addition of ProRes Raw and now the price drops, ZCAM is threatening too cut in to that customer base for Blackmagic.

I think with the addition of ProRes Raw and now the price drops, ZCAM is threatening too cut in to that customer base for Blackmagic.

I don't think ProRes Raw is a selling point for most people; even many people who use FCPX for editing will grade in Resolve so it's not necessarily going to avoid roundtripping.

Market share isn't all it's cracked up to be. You can be a tiny player in a big market and still make a very good living. Besides, I'm sure BMD have people who watch all this closely; they don't need quarterbacking from their customers.

I think with the addition of ProRes Raw and now the price drops, ZCAM is threatening too cut in to that customer base for Blackmagic.

I don't think ProRes Raw is a selling point for most people; even many people who use FCPX for editing will grade in Resolve so it's not necessarily going to avoid roundtripping.

Market share isn't all it's cracked up to be. You can be a tiny player in a big market and still make a very good living. Besides, I'm sure BMD have people who watch all this closely; they don't need quarterbacking from their customers.

Lol. How long do you think it will take before it’s supported by the NLE’s? Everything else is supported, why not ProRes Raw?

They’re a tiny player in a tiny market. That’s why market share matters.

And this entire forum is “quarterbacking from customers”.

You’ve added nothing.

A problem for Blackmagic's market share.

That's it ? You're worried about BMD being able to sell cameras ?

1-$5k cinema camera.

I'm not sure what this means. In the 5K price point ?

However, I personally believe that the majority of BM's customers are people like me. We are the life's blood of this industry. Everyday people who are willing to spend $2500 to shoot high quality, near cinema footage. We range from teenagers to middle aged family men/women. We shoot music videos, fashion videos, social media content, graduation, weddings, and more. We don't have a lot of money, but we know quality when we see it. We're not on set with 30 people helping. We're on "set" by ourselves trying to get the best shot possible with what we have. We don't have all the lights, we don't always have the perfect tool for a particuar shot, but we get it done.

I agree.

The pocket camera FAR FAR FAR outsells the UMP G2. I'm not sure what the other explanation is about, re crew.

I think with the addition of ProRes Raw and now the price drops, ZCAM is threatening too cut in to that customer base for Blackmagic.

I'm really still struggling to understand this logic. Part of me is, who cares. Different cameras appeal to different users.

Z cam are doing some cool things for sure. And they are aggressive on price. (less so on image IQ in my view though)

But I'm not sure if you've noticed but BMD don't really "follow". They just do their thing. They don't really react to others. Look at their camera design. They don't copy anyone. There's great and not so great outcomes there too.

They innovate. They have done many things before others, who tend to follow later and try to catch up.

For a very long time they were the only camera anywhere near this price doing ProRes. In fact really for a long time it was Alexa or a Blackmagic camera if you wanted ProRes on board recording.

They have a long history in their short time making cameras of just doing their own thing.

Mostly it's worked out great for them and they've generally sold more cameras than they can make. Look at how hard it is AGAIN to get a P4K. They're out of stock as far as I can see with online stores. I don't think you need to worry on their behalf.

I can tell you this....they aren't stopping doing what they do well. They will continue to disrupt and to move very quickly to market.

In this example here, the main thrust is...that you can get ProRes RAW but only with as third party recorder ?

I don't see that as a genuine "must have" honestly. BRAW and regular ProRes are equivalent and are available out of the box with the camera.

I mean mayyyyybe if you are FCP only then it makes sense ? But I think these pluses and minuses apply to image and workflow and everyone has to make their own call about what's important to them.

JB

I don't see those who are buying an UMP because it has SDI in/out being persuaded to switch, or those who are truly doing commercial work. However, I personally believe that the majority of BM's customers are people like me. We are the life's blood of this industry. Everyday people who are willing to spend $2500 to shoot high quality, near cinema footage. We range from teenagers to middle aged family men/women. We shoot music videos, fashion videos, social media content, graduation, weddings, and more. We don't have a lot of money, but we know quality when we see it. We're not on set with 30 people helping. We're on "set" by ourselves trying to get the best shot possible with what we have. We don't have all the lights, we don't always have the perfect tool for a particuar shot, but we get it done.

Although you might be right about this demographics, there is another and much larger demographics that buys cinema cameras that are below the $10K range - this is not only BMD UMP and Pockets, but Canon C200, Sony FS5, Panasonic EVA1 and GH5/5s, and in parts of Asia, ZCAM and the Kinifinity. This demographics are the independent (or indie) filmmakers and there are thousands of them all over the world, probably ten's of thousands. They produce tens of thousand low budget films that plague the film festivals which has become a lucrative market for the festivals. The buyers of these cinema cameras are not a one-man band, some tend to be large (over 70 cast and crew at times), filming from shorts, documentaries, and full length features. And for a majority, even though they're seeking for a lower cost solution, they do want the features that they hear from the big boys in Hollywood wants (i.e. SDI, XLR, etc.). I know this because this is my market. I sell my services to them as a narrative filmmaker, director, and producer. This segment usually have budgets between 10K to 250K USD. I did one project that had a 700K budget and was an indie film. There's also a lot of this kind of filmmaking happening in India, China, and other parts of Asia as far as I know. Of course, in the USA too. This is actually the market for those cameras, while the DSLRs are taking on the market segment that you mentioned. All in all, it is a healthy market and has big potentials. The cameras are affordable and there are so many other gears that are affordable for small Indies to be able to invest - and I mean buy the equipment since many parts of these places do not have rental companies. I've done a few worldwide so I know that this is happening not just in the United States but in particular Asia. One project in early 2019 was in the Philippines where the team even were still using the big URSA 4K to film their mini-feature (40 mins long).

Well, then the UMP 4.6K G2 should appeal to them. It has all that's needed for a serious project without dozens of peripheral devices attached (apart from wireless, maybe).
Plus, how many are using the Mac and FCP-X for finishing? It's not very popular in Asia, so who is really limited to ProRes RAW instead of BRAW? If they are not using Resolve, they use Premiere, which is now supporting both.

I'm sure BMD is observing this market carefully, they have a few clever people sitting in Singapore.

OTOH, the largest market is China, where indie (if we can call it so in a country with strict censorship) will sooner or later be dominated by Kinefinity.

Well, then the UMP 4.6K G2 should appeal to them. It has all that's needed for a serious project without dozens of peripheral devices attached (apart from wireless, maybe).

Yes the UMP G1/G2 is popular and so are the Pocket 6K because of price and the Pocket 4K because of both the price and the wide lens selection that can be mounted on them. However there are regions where the used market for older cameras like the big URSA, UM 4K, and even the C100 is still being sought and used. Even the BMCC 2.5K is popular in some circles. But this is getting far and few now because there's the Pocket 4K and even the older UM Pro 4.6K that are affordable to make the pictures. The BMD has been around for a long while now so they are as popular. Some larger teams buy used RED Epics and Scarlets too - those are popular as well. Of course, the higher the budget, the more chances they get to have more expensive cams and gears - but usually stay in the sub $10K price range. I don't know how ZCam and Kinefinity will take on the Indie market. It is a very large demographics so there's probably room for every sub 10K cine camera manufacturer to have a piece of the pie. In North America, because there is a healthy rental market, you'll find a lot of indie features made using a variation of the BMD, RED, and at times Arri too, and a lot of shorts made with BMD UM, Pocket, and the myriad of DSLR Video cams. I've not done anything in UK and Canada so they might have a different market and landscape base. At least this is my understanding from my travels and affiliations but others may have a differing opinion which is fine.

I went to Z CAM’s site in English to try and find more details about their E2-M4. Very sparse amount of information and even that isn’t reliable as “Everything can change.” If Z CAM is a Chinese automobile, BMD is Bentley Motors. I wonder why this company is making cameras when they appear to have little concept of marketing. It felt very odd in comparison to BMD and most experienced players. Even Digital Bolex did better than Z CAM in spite of their horrid colour palettes on the website.

These remarks might seem odd as I’m not talking much about the camera. Surely the camera will sell itself? Perhaps no one agrees, but one doesn’t buy only a camera, one buys a camera that will be managed and supported and clearly produce great images but also grow a community.

One of the best features of the BMCC is this forum and it will outlast that first camera because of how it is managed and promoted.

May Z CAM do well and the E2-M4 may help it build a base for future development, but at this point it doesn’t look like the company is aiming very high. From the beginning the BMD was aiming to build a “baby Alexa” but this Z CAM may be after a different market, vlogging. That’s a large market but known for speed and the rush to be first to post rather than for artistic merit.

Well put a Rick.
Cheers

This discussion about the Z Cam's arrival and looking at it as a direct competition to BMD is having little or no practical relevance, IMHO. There is a new toy in town, so everybody is rushing. It's like the 'Gold Rush'.

Z- Cam's arrival should be seen as providing more choice to filmmakers. Comparison is different than competition. To compete you need an equal or fair amount of the products in question.

Pioneers like Sony, Panasonic, Canon and then later Alexa and Red were in the game waaayyy before BMD's arrival. And yet BMD did things that shocked the cinema camera world with the arrival of the original cinema camera, and at a price point that was unbelievable. Various test were done and diced about its codec; but the camera left engineers and enthusiasts scratching their heads. To this day, the BMCC is standing alone, untouched and unscathed - like a retired thoroughbred. This was at a time when Canon had taken the lead with the 5d II. It was just plain beautiful to look at, but fell apart on the timeline of serious film making data.

When there were numerous complaints about the size and complexity of editing DNG flies, BMD followed suit with an easy-to-edit lossless compressed format, to ease the the pain in the editing bay.

And now with the advent of BRAW, BMD has proven, once again, that they are serious about the workflow for their cameras. They are camera manufacturers, and so it does seem right and logical for them to provide an easy to use codec within their cameras, than having to pay to use 3rd party codecs. After all Blackmagic Raw is a game changer, and a delight to work with.

But the point to all of this is that, the giant camera manufactures DID NOT loose their market share of the product, simply because some company from down under has come up with an amazing camera.
I'm willing to bet a case of root beer, that their share of the market far exceeds that of BMDs. And I'm also willing to bet that, Blackmagic Design as a company, has come to stay.

I viewed a comparison of the footage shot under various situations from the ARRI Alexa and the BMPCC4K. Of course with the difference in dynamic range it can’t be exactly apples-to-apples but the Pocket held up well with a few notable exceptions. I don’t think the Alexa owner knew how to get the best out of the Pocket either, but was still praising it anyway most times. In the right hands, even the Pocket can hang in there, however always room to improve. 2021?

I'm interested to see the results of swapping mounts between ef and mft on the Zcam, especially with the ability to mount a really low cost lens like Meike on the super35 E2-S6.

Komodo's RF mount has a lot of appeal with canon glass and autofocus but a locking MFT mount for Super35 is more practical to me already owning the mft Veydra lenses.

I went to Z CAM’s site in English to try and find more details about their E2-M4. Very sparse amount of information and even that isn’t reliable as “Everything can change.” If Z CAM is a Chinese automobile, BMD is Bentley Motors. I wonder why this company is making cameras when they appear to have little concept of marketing. It felt very odd in comparison to BMD and most experienced players. Even Digital Bolex did better than Z CAM in spite of their horrid colour palettes on the website.

If BM is Bentley, what is Arri?

These remarks might seem odd as I’m not talking much about the camera. Surely the camera will sell itself? Perhaps no one agrees, but one doesn’t buy only a camera, one buys a camera that will be managed and supported and clearly produce great images but also grow a community.

This is what responsible, seasoned adults do.

One of the best features of the BMCC is this forum and it will outlast that first camera because of how it is managed and promoted.

I agree.

May Z CAM do well and the E2-M4 may help it build a base for future development, but at this point it doesn’t look like the company is aiming very high. From the beginning the BMD was aiming to build a “baby Alexa” but this Z CAM may be after a different market, vlogging. That’s a large market but known for speed and the rush to be first to post rather than for artistic merit.

No one is vlogging with a ZCAM. A quick YouTube search will show that ZCAM is a direct competitor to the Pocket 4K/6K line.

I'm really still struggling to understand this logic. Part of me is, who cares. Different cameras appeal to different users.

Z cam are doing some cool things for sure. And they are aggressive on price. (less so on image IQ in my view though)

But I'm not sure if you've noticed but BMD don't really "follow". They just do their thing. They don't really react to others. Look at their camera design. They don't copy anyone. There's great and not so great outcomes there too.

They innovate. They have done many things before others, who tend to follow later and try to catch up.

For a very long time they were the only camera anywhere near this price doing ProRes. In fact really for a long time it was Alexa or a Blackmagic camera if you wanted ProRes on board recording.

They have a long history in their short time making cameras of just doing their own thing.

Mostly it's worked out great for them and they've generally sold more cameras than they can make. Look at how hard it is AGAIN to get a P4K. They're out of stock as far as I can see with online stores. I don't think you need to worry on their behalf.

I can tell you this....they aren't stopping doing what they do well. They will continue to disrupt and to move very quickly to market.

In this example here, the main thrust is...that you can get ProRes RAW but only with as third party recorder ?

I don't see that as a genuine "must have" honestly. BRAW and regular ProRes are equivalent and are available out of the box with the camera.

I mean mayyyyybe if you are FCP only then it makes sense ? But I think these pluses and minuses apply to image and workflow and everyone has to make their own call about what's important to them.

JB

The overall point is, BM has to respond.

I would like.... BM to respond. I want an Ursa Micro.

And just to kill all the "ProRes Raw is only support in FCP..." talk.

ProRes RAW Support in Adobe Video Applications
https://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/mul ... tions.html

Who's next? Resolve won't be far behind...

This discussion about the Z Cam's arrival and looking at it as a direct competition to BMD is having little or no practical relevance....

Wow, the Pocket 6K in a form factor I like for $500 more! Except, zraw...and who are these guys, oh, I guess you can chat with the CEO on FB, but...FB, ugh. Prores RAW...oh yeah, who cares? Not me.

While cheap and cool, I think, as Rick pointed out, in between bashing Digital Bolex's super-cool colorful website, there is something to buying into an established community. Either here or Red since ZGuys seem to be aiming right into the middle there, what with dropping FF 6K price to waaay less than Komodo. But still, compelling yes, slam dunk, no....

Never called it a slam dunk. I called it a threat.

People act like this BM forum isn’t only 8 years old. This forum is anchored by a handful of people. Why can’t that happen for ZCAM?

Again... I don’t care... I just don’t understand some of these responses. As if BM is going to reward you with a free camera for being a fanboy.

If BM is Bentley, what is Arri?
...

ARRI can only be:
A Rolls Royce incorporated.

... I don’t care... I just don’t understand some of these responses. As if BM is going to reward you with a free camera for being a fanboy.

Perhaps it’s “the peace that passes all understanding.” Far more than about any camera.

Hey Karl, not to move away from the OP's topic, you quoted the wrong person. Do make sure when you are quoting someone's post is that you are referring the quote from the correct person who wrote it. I did not wrote what is quoted under my handle.

Weird glitch, I clicked 'quote' from the other posters post. PHPBB is so dated at this point I hate it its UI/UX.

Again... I don’t care... I just don’t understand some of these responses. As if BM is going to reward you with a free camera for being a fanboy.

But no - if there are many relevant arguments for any side, IMO it is not correct (or there's no really need) to entitle anyone with such simple term as fanboy.
Simply, it seems that BM margin for price/specs/software/distribution is very hard to compete with even for talented Chinese's camera manufacturers. BM squeeze so (extremely) much juice from actual market (sensors, chips etc) offer - and, also, with dropping price for Pocket 6k BM team shows that carefully pay attention to moves of competitors.
Actually, I think that all involved in this discussion feel true sympathy for Zcam effort and honestly cheer competition.
If conclusion may be that some of buyers mostly think to/will go for Zcam mostly because of form factor and connectivity (me include) - that is something that BM has to take into account for future development and this thread and all contributions to it is very usefull... I think.

If conclusion may be that some of buyers mostly think to/will go for Zcam mostly because of form factor and connectivity (me include) - that is something that BM has to take into account for future development and this thread and all contributions to it is very usefull... I think.

This is the entire point.

Well, I did point out that the Zcam form factor was preferable. However, you act like if we're not allowed to be critical about any aspect of the Zcam.

As if BM is going to reward you with a free camera for being a fanboy.

Now tell me where to pick up my free camera!

I was interested in the ZCAM line until recently. It has been damn near impossible to find any data regarding the sensors they use and how they allocate the stops. Then seeing sponsored videos from Matti Haapoja and Parker Walbeck really let me know who they want to focus on and their target demographic. That got a hard pass from me. Shame because the form factor is spot on.