ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

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robert Hart

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ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostTue May 19, 2020 5:40 pm

Every now and again I comment on the reduser forum, initally when I had the SI2K and more recently the "big" URSA. Sometimes I harmlessly stir a bit but by and large they have been a hospitable lot and have not reacted badly.

I stuck the post copied below, over there just now and it will be interesting to see if a pot of milk boils over or the discussion remains friendly and academic.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

Apparently RED has patent protection over a compression scheme for Cinema DNG or something similar and got into a bit of a conflict over Cinema DNG with Blackmagic Design. Rather than get into a full-on stoush, BM dropped CDNG like a poisoned dog and went its own way with BRAW.

Assuming BM would play ball in re-enabling CDNG in firmware builds which probably it won't, what would be the chances of RED licencing a CDNG compression scheme to individual BM camera owners for a reasonable licence fee?

Just a thought, a bit of revenue for RED, better options for BM users. I'm okay of course. I have an older home-repaired pre-ban camera.

Stay safe everyone as best you can over there with this benighted coronial virus getting about. A few of us called it the Wuhan ill but I got told off a while back because China would get offended. It also made it sound like louping ill, a virus which bowls sheep over and us humans are not sheep ( although some calls us sheeple ).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be nice to have the CDNG option back in the current and future generations of BM cams, that is assuming BM stays in the camera game now that other entities are in the same playground.

I might then be tempted to upgrade from the "big" URSA but not just yet.


Cheers all and hopefully dodge the disease long enough for the clinics to be get needle happy and vax you, or just us wrinklies and at risk folk if you prefer to dodge the dracula's daughters or sons running after you with so-called picks.
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timbutt2

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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostTue May 19, 2020 10:31 pm

I honestly prefer Blackmagic RAW because it's a single file as opposed to a folder of a series of DNG stills. Blackmagic was never going to get CinemaDNG to no longer be that structure, and they did it better with BRAW. I love that they have also improved the RAW controls in Resolve for BRAW since initial release. They will continue to do so as well.

Another important point: you can open Blackmagic RAW in Premiere Pro. Compressed CinemaDNG was not able to be opened natively in Premiere. That was a major shame considering Adobe is the one who developed DNG.

I think there's a lot of potential in Blackmagic RAW. I'm very excited for what Blackmagic Design does with it next.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 4:26 am

Robert, that seems to be a power keg of a post. Bit surprised at some of the statements you made. Good luck with the post as I’m sure you didn’t want to cause an explosion.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 7:32 am

timbutt2 wrote:I honestly prefer Blackmagic RAW because it's a single file as opposed to a folder of a series of DNG stills.


Actually BRAW is also a folder with single pictures in it,
your computer just doesn't show them to you :-)

On the other hand, I never even saw that gazzilion of DNG stills, cause why would I open those folders in the first place?
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 8:04 am

Robert, is there another Reduser with very nice sensible people?

You given me enough information about stirring up trouble there to go and get you banned for life. :)
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 8:07 am

Frank show us?

What format are they in?
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 11:35 am

Frank Glencairn wrote:... I never even saw that gazzilion of DNG stills, cause why would I open those folders in the first place?


Quick way to grab a still for processing outside Resolve such as for a poster.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 4:06 pm

rick.lang wrote:
Frank Glencairn wrote:... I never even saw that gazzilion of DNG stills, cause why would I open those folders in the first place?


Quick way to grab a still for processing outside Resolve such as for a poster.

Can do the same with BRAW in Resolve - grab still and export it out.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 6:25 pm

robert Hart wrote:Apparently RED has patent protection over a compression scheme for Cinema DNG or something similar and got into a bit of a conflict over Cinema DNG with Blackmagic Design. Rather than get into a full-on stoush, BM dropped CDNG like a poisoned dog and went its own way with BRAW.


That's an assumption... I'd like to see some evidence one way or another. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turned out that someone like Fraunhofer owned a compression codec that BMD was experimenting with, but Black Magic didn't bother to investigate it -- because as Grant said, BMD was already working on braw...

It would be nice to have the CDNG option back in the current and future generations of BM cams, that is assuming BM stays in the camera game now that other entities are in the same playground.


Regardless of licensing issues, it's a bad idea and it won't happen. Black Magic didn't pull braw out of its booty because someone pointed out a potential IP violation in a cDNG compression algorithm it was using. As anyone can see, Braw has been well thought out in other ways beyond image quality -- which BMD as usual did very nicely with.

It's also designed to be much less resource intensive than Redcode, while offering comparable data rates AND includes metadata support that's not just analagous to but rather identical to what the Big Boys (tm) use.

I seriously doubt that the 6K Pocket would have been viable without Braw, and even if it had worked, you'd be hearing all sorts of complaining about how enormous the clips are.

Meanwhile I'm sure that BMD is working on an 8K camera, at least at the R&D phase.
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robert Hart

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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 7:24 pm

As a round-off to the possible contention I could have been stirring up, as I have always experienced at reduser and here also for that matter, I received polite and informative replies which pointed to other sound reasons for discontinuing CDNG.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread ... CINEMA-DNG
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 7:44 pm

cDNG may have been OPEN, but BMD had developed compressed versions of cDNG that weren't part of the original cDNG plan.

So....

If ONLY uncompressed cDNG is allowed, not compressed, how on earth do you find media that can keep up with a 6K camera ? What kind of system do you need to playback uncompressed 6K DNGs ? It's nuts.

Imagine then what happens when higher resolution cameras come down the path. There's no nice way to manage uncompressed DNG's. There's no readily available media that can keep up with what you'd need to do in camera. And cDNG is not a very smart codec.

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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 7:48 pm

John Brawley wrote:.

Imagine then what happens when higher resolution cameras come down the path. There's no nice way to manage uncompressed DNG's. There's no readily available media that can keep up with what you'd need to do in camera. And cDNG is not a very smart codec.

JB


Yeah -- some of its quirks, like including a Bayer pattern bit map for every frame, make sense for stills, but not for motion... those add up. For just a few hundred frames it's not much, but for a few hundred thousand...

I don't miss dealing with giant collections of files, and I rarely shoot video on my Sigma fp for that reason -- the footage looks very good, but I don't bother backing up the cDNG; instead, I just fire it up in Scratch, grade it, and export it in ProRes or something that I can work with later, then discard the huge collection of DNGs. :)
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 9:06 pm

As a means of proving why it's better to work the BRAW over CinemaDNG because of the thousands upon thousands of single frame files contained in the folder... transfer 2TB worth of footage from either format. Same drive speeds, same connector, and same computer terminal.

Say all the footage was shot at 24 FPS. I'l use the 4.6K (4,608x2,592) sensor of the URSA Mini's as the resolution. I'll also go with each camera recorded at uncompressed or the lowest compression. Then I'll say the average shot length was 5 minutes.

CinemaDNG: 1 hr 53 minutes ; 162,720 FRAMES TOTAL ; 23 Clips (based on average shot length) w/ Average of 87.9 GB per folder.
Blackmagic RAW 3:1: 3 hrs 36 minutes ; 311,040 FRAMES ; 43 Clips (based on average shot length) w/ Average of of 46.1 GB per files

You'll discover that CinemaDNG will take substantially longer to transfer between drives because of the total number of files. BRAW will take less time. There will be 86 individual files for BRAW that need to be transferred. However, CDNG will require 162,766 individual files to transfer. This is because the folder is counted, the audio inside is counted, and each individual DNG frame is counted.

There are technical means for why this happens, but nonetheless in a non scientific test I have seen this just doing back ups. I recently just backed up 15 TB worth of files from over the last 4-5 years from older drives to new storage drives and then new back up drives. Anytime I transferred CinemaDNG files it took hours. BRAW at the same total folder size for the shoot date it took half to a third of the time.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostWed May 20, 2020 10:15 pm

With cDNG BMD was limited to a compression ratio of 4:1 (4 x 16/12 bits = 5.33), because the RED patent concerns among others a compression ratio of 6:1 or more (log is also compression).
With higher resolutions lot's of users want/use higher compression because of various reasons.
When you want to sell in the US you have to respect RED's patent, Kinefinity(internal ProRes RAW) doesn't sell in the US, they do however service in the US(which is allowed according to current US-law).
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostThu May 21, 2020 3:49 am

robert Hart wrote:As a round-off to the possible contention I could have been stirring up, as I have always experienced at reduser and here also for that matter, I received polite and informative replies which pointed to other sound reasons for discontinuing CDNG.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread ... CINEMA-DNG


Rob, most of the users there are not the, gun fun in their own minds, ones, :). Phil gave a seemingly correct but slightly off answer again. Rakesh gave a surprisingly insightful answer, though what that custom codec BM used in cdng, over supported Jpeg used in Braw and CDNG, it doesn't say. Which them asks isn't BM in the same boat with external support with Braw as with cdng, so was their much financial benefit to develop Braw, rather than develop cdng better, and CDNG viewers (we have long suspected that braw just uses the ProRes hardware pattern differently (is there still much of a lag changing back and forth between the two codecs, as there is going to anything else?) as probably can be seen in a post here about using ProRes hardware to compress raw, before Braw. But, the timing of Braw seems to coincide with Red's blood stained push on the Bayer codec ('give me money, we are paying these lawyers to rough you up, and they re costly'). I wonder, apart from stifling competition, did they ever make much money out if the very unpopular patent actions, which are about as unpopular with some people maybe as if they cause the common cold. There was the other issue that putting the cdng as individual naked files outside of the standard container used, was going present performance challenges. The jpeg in normal cdng just as acceleratable as in Braw. So, mostly to do with BM's implementation, rather than cdng, performance wise. But nobody brings that up there. The sample is too small, and the rabbid masses tend to hang out on certain places but may have left (Phew! Is it time to take re user off the black list?). Nobody jumping around in logic like an episode of Rabbids.

Mind you. You did hover up the community quite a bit, and it's one thing that the irrational enjoy, being stroked While, the few normal people go, what's the truth.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostThu May 21, 2020 4:11 am

MishaEngel wrote:With cDNG BMD was limited to a compression ratio of 4:1 (4 x 16/12 bits = 5.33), because the RED patent concerns among others a compression ratio of 6:1 or more (log is also compression).
With higher resolutions lot's of users want/use higher compression because of various reasons.
When you want to sell in the US you have to respect RED's patent, Kinefinity(internal ProRes RAW) doesn't sell in the US, they do however service in the US(which is allowed according to current US-law).


Doesn't the US patent law cover usage, to block people even using or selling a product patented?
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostThu May 21, 2020 7:09 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:With cDNG BMD was limited to a compression ratio of 4:1 (4 x 16/12 bits = 5.33), because the RED patent concerns among others a compression ratio of 6:1 or more (log is also compression).
With higher resolutions lot's of users want/use higher compression because of various reasons.
When you want to sell in the US you have to respect RED's patent, Kinefinity(internal ProRes RAW) doesn't sell in the US, they do however service in the US(which is allowed according to current US-law).


Doesn't the US patent law cover usage, to block people even using or selling a product patented?


No patent law covers usage, it covers selling for commercial purposes.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostThu May 21, 2020 7:21 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
No patent law covers usage, it covers selling for commercial purposes.


Kinefinity has had direct sales to the US for a few years now...
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 12:14 am

I don't know anything about what codec RED use. I am just assuming it is compressed cDNG, for sure not BRAW or anything. I just can't imagine how the RED users manage cDNG given all the bad thing about it. If not, who else is using the cDNG other than sigma fp now?
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 1:00 am

Shaoyan wrote:I don't know anything about what codec RED use. I am just assuming it is compressed cDNG, for sure not BRAW or anything. I just can't imagine how the RED users manage cDNG given all the bad thing about it. If not, who else is using the cDNG other than sigma fp now?

RED has their own RAW format called REDRAW, or R3D. It's actually a very good RAW format.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 1:18 am

Shaoyan wrote:I don't know anything about what codec RED use. I am just assuming it is compressed cDNG, for sure not BRAW or anything. I just can't imagine how the RED users manage cDNG given all the bad thing about it. If not, who else is using the cDNG other than sigma fp now?


REDCODE is wavelet based. It’s probably really just Cineform with some tweaks.

DNG compression is DCT based.

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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 12:05 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:
No patent law covers usage, it covers selling for commercial purposes.


Kinefinity has had direct sales to the US for a few years now...


As far as I know they don't

So how did Kinefinity bypass RED’s patent and include ProRes RAW as an internal recording option? I’m not actually sure what the answer is. I asked Kinefinity about this and they told me that they received the implementation license from Apple last year and they are aware that RED holds several patents in the United States regarding internal compressed RAW recording in cameras.

I assume because RED’s patent only applies to the US and Kinefinity doesn’t actually sell any cameras from within the United States they are not infringing on any patents.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/04/27/kinefinity-mavo-edge-8k-internal-prores-raw-recording/

and

I wasn’t aware of this but the company has partnered up with Origin Cine, who are based in Burbank, California. They offer technical support and after-sales service of Kinefinity cameras. They also rent out Kinefinity cameras if you ever wanted to try one out. Nobody actually sells Kinefinity cameras in the US though. If you are in the US you would need to purchase a camera from abroad.

from the same article

https://www.origincine.com/
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 12:09 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Shaoyan wrote:I don't know anything about what codec RED use. I am just assuming it is compressed cDNG, for sure not BRAW or anything. I just can't imagine how the RED users manage cDNG given all the bad thing about it. If not, who else is using the cDNG other than sigma fp now?


REDCODE is wavelet based. It’s probably really just Cineform with some tweaks.

DNG compression is DCT based.

JB


Close enough

Re: Apple ProRes Raw and Raw HQ
axel.mertes
4/07/18 #525

While I see the release of ProRes RAW as a very clever move to enable already ProRes licensed camera manufacturers to enable a way of RAW recording to their camera fleet, with minimum requirements, I doubt it is the super clever format some seem to hope for right now. It will take less I/O, it'll not require the demosaic from Bayer to RGB, so it actually saves efforts inside the camera.

Saying this new codec is 6.x times faster than R3D is a bit of unfair. RED is stuck to JPEG2000 encoding. The by far best single frame encoding scheme available to date - bit rate vs. quality wise. However, the EBCOT bitstream entropy coding is fairly slow. GPUs, FPGA, ASICs all help and there are numerous hardware implementations, often driven by the begium team behind IntoPix (who already worked on the OpenJPEG in the beginning), who are also the heads behind TICO. However, ProRes will only enable this by either being not compressed or DCT compressed. Uncompressed is large, DCT can introduce artefacts.

TICO is a line by line wavelet codec. So you can decode a line at lower horizontal resolution, but you can only skip lines to decrease the vertical resolution. So itsa a 1D wavelet only. Not a big saving. Designed to enable 4K via HD SDI lines.

R3D/JPEG2000 and GoPro-Cineform/SMPTE VC5 are true 2D wavelet codecs. You can actually decode at lower resolution, with using less computing resources, and get a best quality downscale image, line/collumn skipping not spoken here. No other codecs can do this, no ProRes, no ProRes RAW, no DNxHD, no DNxHR or whatever. This is the MAIN feature of wavelets, and so many poeple out there still don't get it.

With ProRes RAW you'll need a beast of a machine, because you NEED to decode full res or you are set for line/column skipping to see proxies.
In fact, I can edit and play 4K, 6K or even 8K R3D on a 2002 HP xw8400 workstation or on my i7 notebook in its native format. I doubt I can to that with ProRes RAW of the same resolution source.
And Cineform/SMPTE VC5 is about 5-7 times faster than R3D, because this codec employs a much faster bitstream entropy coding (huffmann), which will give it that benefit. In other words, Cineform/SMPTE VC5 can be expected to be as fast as ProRes RAW (if told numbers remain true), but with smaller requirements for the playback hardware. And its open source now, while ProRes RAW will be proprietary. Big point IMHO.

On systems where I can edit R3D in 2K proxy, I can edit Cineform/SMPTE VC5 in 4K easily due to its speed benefit. Too bad RED and Cineform didn't manage a cooperation back in the beginning of RED...

Bottom line:
ProRes RAW is welcome to increase RAW recording options. However, I tend to transcode e.g. to Cineform/SMPTE VC5 RAW for better options in post for my workflow if I really need RAW. Or pregrade and go to e.g. Cineform RGB instead.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Best regards,
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 2:01 pm

Hey Misha,

The owners of the forum you’re posting that from take a pretty dim view about posts being quoted elsewhere.

JB
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 3:05 pm

John Brawley wrote:Hey Misha,

The owners of the forum you’re posting that from take a pretty dim view about posts being quoted elsewhere.

JB


Then they shouldn't post it on a free to read and open internet forum, the source is mentioned: Axel Mertes.
An open forum is just an open forum.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 3:29 pm

Shaoyan wrote:I don't know anything about what codec RED use. I am just assuming it is compressed cDNG, for sure not BRAW or anything. I just can't imagine how the RED users manage cDNG given all the bad thing about it. If not, who else is using the cDNG other than sigma fp now?


Yep, wavelet. Redcode was Jpeg2000, which from an engineer I spoke to, is a lot slower. But, around the time of the much speedier revision of redcode, cineform seemed to dry up and the Bayer recording patent existed. I can only imagine that part of recode improved,
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 4:07 pm

I still really don't get the aversion to Blackmagic RAW in favor of returning to CDNG. Seems to me like most of the people who are asking for this are primarily pixel peeping types that don't really shoot much of anything besides test footage that they blow up 800% to prove their point.

CDNG was a pain in the ass and exactly the reason why I haven't given SIGMA $2000 for their camera. REDCode is also an outdated codec that yields questionable interpretations of what the sensor is likely seeing -- the problem is that there is nothing to compare it to so RED users just accept it as the best that those cameras have to offer.

I think Blackmagic RAW is a good solution, and it's bound to get even better as future revisions improve on its weaknesses. We should all be encouraging BMD to continue to develop the format, rather than complain that we can no longer use CDNG on their cameras.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 4:11 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:With cDNG BMD was limited to a compression ratio of 4:1 (4 x 16/12 bits = 5.33), because the RED patent concerns among others a compression ratio of 6:1 or more (log is also compression).
With higher resolutions lot's of users want/use higher compression because of various reasons.
When you want to sell in the US you have to respect RED's patent, Kinefinity(internal ProRes RAW) doesn't sell in the US, they do however service in the US(which is allowed according to current US-law).


Doesn't the US patent law cover usage, to block people even using or selling a product patented?


No patent law covers usage, it covers selling for commercial purposes.



I sure don't love people correcting me in what I already know is right. It's very disrespectful to fact.

From the Wikipedia article on Patents:
..a patent provides, from a legal standpoint, the right to exclude others[21] from making, using, selling, offering for sale, or importing the patented invention for the term of the patent..


The issue is, that small individuals are costly to take out one by one (but some do it) compared to a enterprise. They get to decide your usage. I wonder if the open ended damages apply here, like your entire business for deliberately using a Bayer compressing camera of this intellectually minute difference from previous bayer compressing camera. So, watch out when you press that burst button on your new stills camera, once it gets to 24fps or so Bayer... Such a ridiculous situation, putting a few number field changes in a stupid Patent, that just represent going faster or bigger, as if they mean something unusual, ridiculous.

The article references groups that invalidate patents.

So. Some real world examples:. Hunting companies using DVD players in their offices. Hunting people using xor to reverse the cursor on CAD systems, getting paid a massive amount licensing a system to Apple for use of developers for their system, then putting big claims on the developers separately, putting big claims on people making their own farm equipment. They actually get items seized at the border for infringing.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 4:22 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Hey Misha,

The owners of the forum you’re posting that from take a pretty dim view about posts being quoted elsewhere.

JB


Then they shouldn't post it on a free to read and open internet forum, the source is mentioned: Axel Mertes.
An open forum is just an open forum.



1. You are a member of that forum.
2. You agree when you sign up to be a member of that group to some terms and conditions. Maybe you don't read them, but one of them is

"You also agree to respect the copyright of these messages and not to reproduce them in any way without the express permission of the Listmums.

Violations of these conditions will result in you being permanently removed from the CML."

So as a member of that forum you are in breach of what you agreed not to do when you signed up.

So do the right thing. Instead of arguing about it, you could have simply linked to the message.

Attribution is a basic tenet of forum politeness. Mentioning his name isn't attribution. You know better.

JB
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 4:36 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I still really don't get the aversion to Blackmagic RAW in favor of returning to CDNG. Seems to me like most of the people who are asking for this are primarily pixel peeping types that don't really shoot much of anything besides test footage that they blow up 800% to prove their point.

CDNG was a pain in the ass and exactly the reason why I haven't given SIGMA $2000 for their camera. REDCode is also an outdated codec that yields questionable interpretations of what the sensor is likely seeing -- the problem is that there is nothing to compare it to so RED users just accept it as the best that those cameras have to offer.

I think Blackmagic RAW is a good solution, and it's bound to get even better as future revisions improve on its weaknesses. We should all be encouraging BMD to continue to develop the format, rather than complain that we can no longer use CDNG on their cameras.


I look at the footage at optimal feild of view, and can see it. If you look closer you can see why it looks worse, if you don't look at the pixels then you are just saying stuff about the footage without saying why it's different and I can actually see 8k from an optimal viewing angle, and I still need to look close to tell why one looks better than the other. Engineering stuff, you look at the detail to make it better, because you are just a tosser otherwise.

Now. There is massive misunderstanding, lossless cdng records exactly what the sensor sees and how it sees it, the natural vision for a sensor, what Braw itself starts with, it is not ruining it in anyway. It's up to you to improve it more than Braw does for you (actually when I squint my eyes my eyelashes blur it a bit like an optical low pass filter, or Braw too). The way cdng was handled was nearly all its problem, rather than cdng itsel. But the beef is not that we need cdng back, it's that we need something at least as good as a lossless mode. From what people can tell, Braw is not an efficient way to store an image. Immediately yiu go from Bayer to component video you are storing unnecessary overhead data, increasing your compression ratio for the same file size. So, you need better compression, like cineform or newer jpeg engine to compensate or bigger file sizes. That's it. Unfortunately, if it was Bayer wavelet compression, cineform raw bayer, there would be little issue. But that's life, the solution st the moment is a extra high end lossless mode with a few changes and higher datarate. Even if they get very near it. So, 1.5:1-2:1 likely.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 4:39 pm

I've got a name for the proposed high end mode "Depth"
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 4:42 pm

MishaEngel wrote:Kinefinity has had direct sales to the US for a few years now...


As far as I know they don't
[/quote]

They have. I almost pulled the trigger on one when the original UM 4.6K started getting to eight months past the predicted release date, and while I was considering it I chatted with some semi-local folks who owned Kinefinity cameras in Washington (it's a big state, they were about a 4 hour drive away), who purchased directly from Kinefinity.

I don't know when Kinefinity established that relationship with OriginCine, but I learned about it during the Mavo Edge announcement presentation.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 4:58 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I still really don't get the aversion to Blackmagic RAW in favor of returning to CDNG. Seems to me like most of the people who are asking for this are primarily pixel peeping types that don't really shoot much of anything besides test footage that they blow up 800% to prove their point.


On top of that, most of the "proof" ends up revealing problems in how they shot the footage rather than in the codec.

CDNG was a pain in the ass and exactly the reason why I haven't given SIGMA $2000 for their camera.


I have a Sigma fp, and almost never use it for video because of the cDNG part. The image quality is very good, but cDNG is still annoying.

REDCode is also an outdated codec that yields questionable interpretations of what the sensor is likely seeing -- the problem is that there is nothing to compare it to so RED users just accept it as the best that those cameras have to offer.


I think the same thing applies as above, where most of the problems with Redcode aren't really problems with the technology but rather in the shooting portion. Too many people use the excuse of having excess resolution as an excuse to be sloppy, in other words. We all know that if you shoot in higher resolution than your target and then downscale, you hide flaws like misses in focus, and even some artifacts like moire and that sort of thing, though it's at the expense of the being able to reframe to fix sloppy framing in production.

I think Blackmagic RAW is a good solution, and it's bound to get even better as future revisions improve on its weaknesses. We should all be encouraging BMD to continue to develop the format, rather than complain that we can no longer use CDNG on their cameras.


I think so too. BMD has also taken the time to build a robust metadata infrastructure around it, which is an underappreciated bonus on top of being efficient and looking good.

Based on side by side testing, it seems to be as efficient as Redcode in terms of data rates vs quality while being easier on the system.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 6:31 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:... the solution st the moment is a extra high end lossless mode with a few changes and higher datarate. Even if they get very near it. So, 1.5:1-2:1 likely.


Doesn’t BRAW Q0 get you there or close enough today with 2:1 or slightly better compression if the detail in the frame requires it?
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 8:28 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Braw is not an efficient way to store an image. Immediately yiu go from Bayer to component video you are storing unnecessary overhead data, increasing your compression ratio for the same file size. So, you need better compression, like cineform or newer jpeg engine to compensate or bigger file sizes. That's it. Unfortunately, if it was Bayer wavelet compression, cineform raw bayer, there would be little issue.



Don't you think that BMD employees some pretty smart engineers that are on top of their field? And you don't think that they spent several years of full-time research to figure out the most efficient and visually lossless way to store data from their cameras?
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 8:39 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:Don't you think that BMD employees some pretty smart engineers that are on top of their field? And you don't think that they spent several years of full-time research to figure out the most efficient and visually lossless way to store data from their cameras?


Based on the final image, I'd say that BMD did a bang up job of it.

I also don't care about purism like "But if it's compressed, then is it really raw?"

In the end, neither does the client. Or the moviegoer.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:01 pm

John Brawley wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Hey Misha,

The owners of the forum you’re posting that from take a pretty dim view about posts being quoted elsewhere.

JB


Then they shouldn't post it on a free to read and open internet forum, the source is mentioned: Axel Mertes.
An open forum is just an open forum.



1. You are a member of that forum.
2. You agree when you sign up to be a member of that group to some terms and conditions. Maybe you don't read them, but one of them is

"You also agree to respect the copyright of these messages and not to reproduce them in any way without the express permission of the Listmums.

Violations of these conditions will result in you being permanently removed from the CML."

So as a member of that forum you are in breach of what you agreed not to do when you signed up.

So do the right thing. Instead of arguing about it, you could have simply linked to the message.

Attribution is a basic tenet of forum politeness. Mentioning his name isn't attribution. You know better.

JB


I am not a member of that forum, just a reader.

An other source mentioned this:
CineForm is very stable to iterative recompression.

Compared to JPEG2000, CineForm has a slightly higher data rate at similar PSNRs (peak signal to noise ratios) with the benefit of being up to 7 times faster to encode/decode on the same hardware.

According to a GoPro press release,[6] SMPTE has standardized the CineForm codec as the SMPTE ST 2073 VC-5 video compression standard.[7] In practice the VC-5 specification did not provide enough information to decode Cineform files and reverse engineering was necessary.[8]

GoPro released[1] CineForm as open source in October 2017[9] dually licensed under the MIT License and the Apache License 2.0[10]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CineForm

Or this one:

CineForm Introduction

GoPro CineForm® is a 12-bit, full-frame wavelet compression video codec. It is designed for speed and quality, at the expense of a very high compression size. Image compression is a balance of size, speed and quality, and you can only choose two. CineForm was the first of its type to focus on speed, while supporting higher bit depths for image quality. More recent examples would be Avid DNxHD® and Apple ProRes®, although both divide the image into blocks using DCT. The full frame wavelet as a subject quality advantage over DCTs, so you can compression more without classic ringing or block artifact issues.

Pixel formats supported:

8/10/16-bit YUV 4:2:2 compressed as 10-bit, progressive or interlace
8/10/16-bit RGB 4:4:4 compressed at 12-bit progressive
8/16-bit RGBA 4:4:4:4 compressed at 12-bit progressive
12/16-bit CFA Bayer RAW, log encoded and compressed at 12-bit progressive
Dual channel stereoscopic/3D in any of the above.

Compression ratio: between 10:1 and 4:1 are typical, greater ranges are possible. CineForm is a constant quality design, bit-rates will vary as needed for the scene. Whereas most other intermediate video codecs are a constant bit-rate design, quality varies depending on the scene.


https://gopro.github.io/cineform-sdk/

No forum in the world can copywrite common information mentioned by numerous sources found on the internet with: Google, Duck duck go, etc..

I just liked the way how Alex Mertes (former???)http://www.magnamana.com/ wrote it down on a forum.

I am not a member of CML
https://cml.news/g/cml-raw-log-hdr/message/525
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:04 pm



That wasn't so hard was it....

JB
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:08 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:Kinefinity has had direct sales to the US for a few years now...


As far as I know they don't


They have. I almost pulled the trigger on one when the original UM 4.6K started getting to eight months past the predicted release date, and while I was considering it I chatted with some semi-local folks who owned Kinefinity cameras in Washington (it's a big state, they were about a 4 hour drive away), who purchased directly from Kinefinity.

I don't know when Kinefinity established that relationship with OriginCine, but I learned about it during the Mavo Edge announcement presentation.[/quote]

In the USA you can purchase ProRes RAW supporting camera's directly form Kinefinity (China or any other country than the USA), you can't sell them in the USA (because of the RED patent).
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:11 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
In the USA you can purchase ProRes RAW supporting camera's directly form Kinefinity (China or any other country than the USA), you can't sell them in the USA (because of the RED patent).


Can you ACTUALLY though ? As far as I know, not a single ProRes RAW internal recording camera has been made yet ? One that you can buy, take delivery of and record clips on.

JB
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:17 pm

John Brawley wrote:


That wasn't so hard was it....

JB


As easy as this one:

Re: Apple ProRes Raw and Raw HQ
axel.mertes
4/07/18 #525

While I see the release of ProRes RAW as a very clever move to enable already ProRes licensed camera manufacturers to enable a way of RAW recording to their camera fleet, with minimum requirements, I doubt it is the super clever format some seem to hope for right now. It will take less I/O, it'll not require the demosaic from Bayer to RGB, so it actually saves efforts inside the camera.

Saying this new codec is 6.x times faster than R3D is a bit of unfair. RED is stuck to JPEG2000 encoding. The by far best single frame encoding scheme available to date - bit rate vs. quality wise. However, the EBCOT bitstream entropy coding is fairly slow. GPUs, FPGA, ASICs all help and there are numerous hardware implementations, often driven by the begium team behind IntoPix (who already worked on the OpenJPEG in the beginning), who are also the heads behind TICO. However, ProRes will only enable this by either being not compressed or DCT compressed. Uncompressed is large, DCT can introduce artefacts.

TICO is a line by line wavelet codec. So you can decode a line at lower horizontal resolution, but you can only skip lines to decrease the vertical resolution. So itsa a 1D wavelet only. Not a big saving. Designed to enable 4K via HD SDI lines.

R3D/JPEG2000 and GoPro-Cineform/SMPTE VC5 are true 2D wavelet codecs. You can actually decode at lower resolution, with using less computing resources, and get a best quality downscale image, line/collumn skipping not spoken here. No other codecs can do this, no ProRes, no ProRes RAW, no DNxHD, no DNxHR or whatever. This is the MAIN feature of wavelets, and so many poeple out there still don't get it.

With ProRes RAW you'll need a beast of a machine, because you NEED to decode full res or you are set for line/column skipping to see proxies.
In fact, I can edit and play 4K, 6K or even 8K R3D on a 2002 HP xw8400 workstation or on my i7 notebook in its native format. I doubt I can to that with ProRes RAW of the same resolution source.
And Cineform/SMPTE VC5 is about 5-7 times faster than R3D, because this codec employs a much faster bitstream entropy coding (huffmann), which will give it that benefit. In other words, Cineform/SMPTE VC5 can be expected to be as fast as ProRes RAW (if told numbers remain true), but with smaller requirements for the playback hardware. And its open source now, while ProRes RAW will be proprietary. Big point IMHO.

On systems where I can edit R3D in 2K proxy, I can edit Cineform/SMPTE VC5 in 4K easily due to its speed benefit. Too bad RED and Cineform didn't manage a cooperation back in the beginning of RED...

Bottom line:
ProRes RAW is welcome to increase RAW recording options. However, I tend to transcode e.g. to Cineform/SMPTE VC5 RAW for better options in post for my workflow if I really need RAW. Or pregrade and go to e.g. Cineform RGB instead.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Best regards,
Axel Mertes


CML is just a forum, Axel Mertes brings the info on a forum you can read without being a member or agreeing to any term or condition. I mentioned the source Axel Mertes, who deserves the credit.

Just like how the people from Slashcam.de discovered why NVidia cards are running out of memory and AMD cards don't in Davinci Resolve. In case of Slashcam.de they are both the source and the platform.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:21 pm

John Brawley wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:
In the USA you can purchase ProRes RAW supporting camera's directly form Kinefinity (China or any other country than the USA), you can't sell them in the USA (because of the RED patent).


Can you ACTUALLY though ? As far as I know, not a single ProRes RAW internal recording camera has been made yet ? One that you can buy, take delivery of and record clips on.

JB


At least 6 pre-production models are currently in the USA (that I know of) and they are not sold in the USA.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:32 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
Can you ACTUALLY though ? As far as I know, not a single ProRes RAW internal recording camera has been made yet ? One that you can buy, take delivery of and record clips on.

JB


At least 6 pre-production models are currently in the USA (that I know of) and they are not sold in the USA.


So you mean..

"No, you still can't buy an internal ProRes RAW recording camera anywhere on the planet."

JB
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:35 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Braw is not an efficient way to store an image. Immediately yiu go from Bayer to component video you are storing unnecessary overhead data, increasing your compression ratio for the same file size. So, you need better compression, like cineform or newer jpeg engine to compensate or bigger file sizes. That's it. Unfortunately, if it was Bayer wavelet compression, cineform raw bayer, there would be little issue.



Don't you think that BMD employees some pretty smart engineers that are on top of their field? And you don't think that they spent several years of full-time research to figure out the most efficient and visually lossless way to store data from their cameras?



Definitely not, take the Rose coloured glasses off, very few engineers can devote that amount of time or be that good. It's like me expecting you to be best camera man in the world and having just done Master and Commander 2, awaiting your academy award for cinematography.

It is a compromise, as the intellectual property feild is. I was merely saying that the way they had to do it compared to just compressing RAW, adds to file size.

Now, if they want to keep the FPGA size down, they want to reuse resource's. So, Braw is likely to be based on the same compression circuits as ProRes. However, they did a nice job of it, and you have a compliant alternative to ProRes raw.

Also, Braw predates the release of a few new compression codecs it could use, and wavelet might not even be suitable in FPGA (I don't know that one). So, it's a matter of where to from here. Having already put it in motion they may not even be wanting to upgrade the compression engine to something exotic then.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sat May 23, 2020 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:40 pm

MishaEngel wrote:CML is just a forum, Axel Mertes brings the info on a forum you can read without being a member or agreeing to any term or condition. I mentioned the source Axel Mertes, who deserves the credit.

Just like how the people from Slashcam.de discovered why NVidia cards are running out of memory and AMD cards don't in Davinci Resolve. In case of Slashcam.de they are both the source and the platform.


You're still arguing this one ?

Obviously CML doesn't want you sharing posts from their forum, which I pointed out to you.

You're happy to ignore that request, then I guess it says something about you.

You also didn't properly attribute the post to the author, nor the source of the post.

You then went and posted that information only after I pointed this out to you and you also forgot this bit in his signature.

"This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
in this e-mail is strictly forbidden."

Why are you being so argumentative about this ? It's basic politeness Why not credit it properly ? You're using the credibility of others but not acknowledging it correctly.



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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostSat May 23, 2020 7:44 am

Misha, there is certain exceptions in copyright law that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, like I was surprised here is Australia they are saying there is no fair use provision here like in the US, do that person saying a few years ago that the News weather used his photo without permission might have a case despite the news telling him it was fair use (like a boiler plate clause it is what one says to intimidate but has no legal standing, as actual law overides it, and I think people need to be sued for using wrong boiler plate clauses deliberately, and to intimidate). So, you are allowed to quotena certain amount. Now, academic requirements for citation as irrelevant if the law doesn't require it, so just quoting the name maybe enough, maybe even saying somebody saud, in some market. So, things are not do clear cut.

Now, all this stuff about email and intended recipient inns public forum, maybe just a boiler plate clause legally, and it's not an ernail, so was that copy and pasted from a confidential email. If that .published publically is it still valid once published. In which jurisdictions? I am very unhappy with such statements, as people who are trying to screw you, tend to use the email statement to protect their illegal conduct. I did a pre-selection once, and boy, fortunately they didn't require me to sign away my children.

So here is the tricky part what is the requirements in your jurisdiction viewing copying and sending that for publication, which jurisdictions are publication regarded as being in (does both your jurisdiction and the resulting jurisdiction if the action, maybe the server's jurisdiction, maybe even the country of registration of the forum, and the one of approval of publications control, could all be regarded as jurisdictions of publication, at the same time. It's basically any involved jurisdiction where a claim of jurisdiction if publication could be tried in court, or under law. It's simple when it is, unless it's tested in court and proven otherwise. So, maybe the statement has some legal strength in the writer's or forum's jurisdiction, maybe not. But, at the same time Misha, you have to use a bit of judgement in respecting the writer's desires/wishes.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:12 am

robert Hart wrote:Every now and again I comment on the reduser forum, initally when I had the SI2K and more recently the "big" URSA. Sometimes I harmlessly stir a bit but by and large they have been a hospitable lot and have not reacted badly.

I stuck the post copied below, over there just now and it will be interesting to see if a pot of milk boils over or the discussion remains friendly and academic.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

Apparently RED has patent protection over a compression scheme for Cinema DNG or something similar and got into a bit of a conflict over Cinema DNG with Blackmagic Design. Rather than get into a full-on stoush, BM dropped CDNG like a poisoned dog and went its own way with BRAW.

Assuming BM would play ball in re-enabling CDNG in firmware builds which probably it won't, what would be the chances of RED licencing a CDNG compression scheme to individual BM camera owners for a reasonable licence fee?

Just a thought, a bit of revenue for RED, better options for BM users. I'm okay of course. I have an older home-repaired pre-ban camera.

Stay safe everyone as best you can over there with this benighted coronial virus getting about. A few of us called it the Wuhan ill but I got told off a while back because China would get offended. It also made it sound like louping ill, a virus which bowls sheep over and us humans are not sheep ( although some calls us sheeple ).

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It would be nice to have the CDNG option back in the current and future generations of BM cams, that is assuming BM stays in the camera game now that other entities are in the same playground.

I might then be tempted to upgrade from the "big" URSA but not just yet.


Cheers all and hopefully dodge the disease long enough for the clinics to be get needle happy and vax you, or just us wrinklies and at risk folk if you prefer to dodge the dracula's daughters or sons running after you with so-called picks.


After your post, I decided to do a test of that here. Of course I suggested something doable, but got only one practical reply. After I did that post in recent weeks, on how to extract information from Bayer data on several levels in demosaicing Bayer, the regular antagonistic replies suddenly dried up. Nothing like wasting millions of dollars of trade secrets to stop a debate. Anyways, only a drop in the ocean, or somebody dying of thirst.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114167
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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MishaEngel

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  • Real Name: Misha Engel

Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:28 pm

John Brawley wrote:
MishaEngel wrote:CML is just a forum, Axel Mertes brings the info on a forum you can read without being a member or agreeing to any term or condition. I mentioned the source Axel Mertes, who deserves the credit.

Just like how the people from Slashcam.de discovered why NVidia cards are running out of memory and AMD cards don't in Davinci Resolve. In case of Slashcam.de they are both the source and the platform.


You're still arguing this one ?

Obviously CML doesn't want you sharing posts from their forum, which I pointed out to you.

You're happy to ignore that request, then I guess it says something about you.

You also didn't properly attribute the post to the author, nor the source of the post.

You then went and posted that information only after I pointed this out to you and you also forgot this bit in his signature.

"This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
in this e-mail is strictly forbidden."

Why are you being so argumentative about this ? It's basic politeness Why not credit it properly ? You're using the credibility of others but not acknowledging it correctly.



JB


CML is irrelevant to me and I don't care if CML doesn't want me to share a comment posted on their forum. I do care to mention the source, which I did "Axel Mertes".

When Axel Mertes doesn't want someone to publish his email adress/quote/or whatever, he shouldn't post it on an open and free to read forum somewhere on the internet.
Axel mertes didn't post something new that wasn't published earlier on the internet (wikipedia), he just explained in his own words why ProRes RAW is technical inferior compressed-RAW format compared to REDRAW and CineformRAW. Basic politeness from one of the 5 eyes countries is not the same as basic politeness in other parts of the world.
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John Brawley

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Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:35 pm

MishaEngel wrote:CML is irrelevant to me and I don't care if CML doesn't want me to share a comment posted on their forum. I do care to mention the source, which I did "Axel Mertes".



OK then we're clear. You're happy to rip off the IP of the forum that Alex Mertes chooses to post on. Good one.

I don't think we need argue it further and apologies for the OT diversion.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
London UK
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MishaEngel

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  • Real Name: Misha Engel

Re: ONE FOR THE RED TEAM ABOUT CINEMA DNG.

PostSun May 24, 2020 11:48 am

When you call this quote IP:

OK then we're clear. You're happy to rip off the IP of the forum that Alex Mertes chooses to post on. Good one.

I don't think we need argue it further and apologies for the OT diversion.

JB


Then everything is IP, I have a different view and others have different views https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property
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