Blackmagic Forum

Hi everyone,

I've been watching a lot of pocket cinema camera footage made by enthusiasts and professionals and noticed that something very bad is happening with the highlights.

First time I've seen that was on CheesyCam clip:
Those white orbs are all over the clip, you can see that very clearly between 00:51 and 00:58, the water "sparkles". I thought that maybe it's because they were recording through HDMI to Atomos Ninja 2 recorder, but then I started seeing those on almost every footage I've seen!

Like: , or even on the latest Philip Bloom video:

It took me some time to find out what it is and I found that this is called "blooming sensor".
I think that's a really big problem!
I've read some articles about the Fujifilm X10 and found out that they had the same problem with their camera, and to get rid of it they had to modify the sensor, becouse the firmware update didn't worked...

I hope that's not the same issue as the X10 and a simple firmware update will fix the problem.
Here's the article by dpreview showing before and after sensor update:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/04/26 ... pdate#orbs
The difference is huge!

And one more thing, when I was watching John Brawley's clips I never saw anything like the white orbs, and I was thinking, that maybe the pre-production sensor or the earlier firmware was different than the ones we can buy.

Tell me what do you think, maybe I'm very wrong (I hope so) but this doesn't look good:(

I noticed the same thing, I just assumed it was bad clipping - but from looking at other references...I think you might be onto something here!

Example of problem on other cameras:





Example of possible problem on Pocket cam:





Of course the areas are clipping, but the harsh edge and circular nature does look very similar to the fuji sensor issue.

I really look into details of what I'm seeing and I have never seen something like that in a movie camera... I know, it is a cheap film camera and may have some "issues" that big cameras don't have (that is why you pay less) but I don't think that's the case in here. The X10 costs much less and they modified the sensor to prevent blooming (they are replacing the old cameras with the ones with better sensor under warranty).

Don't get me wrong I love the idea of BMPCC, I even have the money in my pocket to buy the pocket (that sounds silly ), but I dont think that I want one that have those horrible orbs all over my footage

I'd love to hear that Blackmagic will figure something out with that "blooming" thing.

I don't see any of the "black dots" I thought would be there in specular highlights.

mhood wrote:I don't see any of the "black dots" I thought would be there in specular highlights.

I think the black dots appear beyond clipping, otherwise they would appear every time the image clips.

Tom wrote:

mhood wrote:I don't see any of the "black dots" I thought would be there in specular highlights.

I think the black dots appear beyond clipping, otherwise they would appear every time the image clips.

I had no idea that there even was a "beyond clipping".

It would be great if anyone with a non-demo camera can make some tests.
If that is really a sensor issue, I and probably many others would prefer to cancel their preorders before it's not too late. Rhough I can't imagine BM didn't test extensively.
Those circles are really ugly!

mhood wrote:

Tom wrote:

mhood wrote:I don't see any of the "black dots" I thought would be there in specular highlights.

I think the black dots appear beyond clipping, otherwise they would appear every time the image clips.

I had no idea that there even was a "beyond clipping".

I don't think that you can call it "clipping". It's something different. Look at the images below (taken from "dpreview.com"). The difference between normal and not normal clipping that look the same as on BMPCC footage. BTW it's the difference between the Fuji X10 - modified and unmodified sensor.

ZEBRIED wrote:Hi everyone,
I hope that's not the same issue as the X10 and a simple firmware update will fix the problem.
Here's the article by dpreview showing before and after sensor update:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/04/26 ... pdate#orbs
The difference is huge!
(

It looks like dpreview has showed the way for every user and BMD lab to quickly and easily recreate the problem, if it's present.

And I thought this was going to be another Philip Bloom thread.

Is it possible that the blooming is a result of BMD trying to fix the black dot issue, but they ended up overcompensating in a way?

Randy Walters wrote:And I thought this was going to be another Philip Bloom thread.

Christian Schmeer wrote:Is it possible that the blooming is a result of BMD trying to fix the black dot issue, but they ended up overcompensating in a way?:

The issue doesn't seem to present in the version of the pocket camera used by JB for his night footage..



Which could indicate that it's fixable by firmware?

matt brown wrote:

Christian Schmeer wrote:Is it possible that the blooming is a result of BMD trying to fix the black dot issue, but they ended up overcompensating in a way?:

The issue doesn't seem to present in the version of the pocket camera used by JB for his night footage..



Which could indicate that it's fixable by firmware?

I was suggesting that in the first post:

ZEBRIED wrote:And one more thing, when I was watching John Brawley's clips I never saw anything like the white orbs, and I was thinking, that maybe the pre-production sensor or the earlier firmware was different than the ones we can buy.

But I'm afraid that it's more of a sensor problem than firmware. Maybe the first part of sensors arrived to the factory had some sort of flaw? That is why Brawley, who got the pre-production model had no issue with the orbs...

ZEBRIED wrote:And one more thing, when I was watching John Brawley's clips I never saw anything like the white orbs, and I was thinking, that maybe the pre-production sensor or the earlier firmware was different than the ones we can buy.

Sorry I missed that..

There are many guys who've got their pockets recently.
They can try to reproduce this 'defect', if it shows, it's very possible to be a sensor problem.

From another forum:

This is a very big deal for a lot of us, Im guess BMD are scrambling around hopefully trying to figure out if this is something they can fix. Im getting one to play with next week, if is in fact the case I wont put my own money down till its resolved I dont care how cheap the camera is blobby highlights is not ok. Here's hoping this is a nothing issue and gets resolved quickly. Would be nice to hear something from BMD on this one though.

matt brown wrote:

Christian Schmeer wrote:Is it possible that the blooming is a result of BMD trying to fix the black dot issue, but they ended up overcompensating in a way?:

The issue doesn't seem to present in the version of the pocket camera used by JB for his night footage..



Which could indicate that it's fixable by firmware?

True, but as you said, it's nighttime footage. Maybe only overwhelmingly strong highlights during the day get "bloomed out" by the sensor, kind of like how the black dot issue only appears when you shoot directly into the sun.

@Christian, look at the pics I posted...the nighttime WS, the car headlight.

mhood wrote:@Christian, look at the pics I posted...the nighttime WS, the car headlight.

I don´t see your pics but I guess it´s because of the browser or some stupid firewall...

Hans Engstrom wrote:

mhood wrote:@Christian, look at the pics I posted...the nighttime WS, the car headlight.

I don´t see your pics but I guess it´s because of the browser or some stupid firewall...

Hmmmm...I see them but they are links to attachments on another forum. Perhaps that's not allowed or something. These seem to be freezes from Phillip Bloom's latest and clearly show the sensor bloom on a nighttime wide shot, a dusk shot with traffic headlights blooming and a CU of a car's headlamp with blooming and the black dot.

mhood wrote:

Hans Engstrom wrote:

mhood wrote:@Christian, look at the pics I posted...the nighttime WS, the car headlight.

I don´t see your pics but I guess it´s because of the browser or some stupid firewall...

Hmmmm...I see them but they are links to attachments on another forum. Perhaps that's not allowed or something. These seem to be freezes from Phillip Bloom's latest and clearly show the sensor bloom on a nighttime wide shot, a dusk shot with traffic headlights blooming and a CU of a car's headlamp with blooming and the black dot.

Yeah, the images don't show up, but I had a look at Bloom's post. You're right, it's there in the street lights.

Hmmm... I just looked at PB's edit, and while there are very similar shots, I don't believe these stills are screen grabs from the edit. The stills are considerably brighter.

For example, the street shot in the edit has different people passing by, and still has tone in the street lights - some of it quite yellow instead of white. It looks fine to me, though some of the other streetlight shots do blow out.

The city shot with the white dome is framed differently, but some of the lights do seem to blow to white. I didn't see that close headlight shot anywhere in the edit.

I'm wondering... could some of this be coming from trying to grade ProRes as if it was raw? Sheer speculation, as I don't know if any of the footage we're seeing the issue with is untreated, or graded.

Randy Walters wrote:The city shot with the white dome is framed differently, but some of the lights do seem to blow to white. I didn't see that close headlight shot anywhere in the edit.

I'm wondering... could some of this be coming from trying to grade ProRes as if it was raw? Sheer speculation, as I don't know if any of the footage we're seeing the issue with is untreated, or graded.

Much of what might be bloom in Bloom's last edit could be hidden in the bokeh. You're right, I never saw the headlight CU in the edit either and the street shot was different. Maybe these grabs I linked to are ungraded stock. But there's no doubt about the last nighttime WS of the dome in Bloom's edited piece, it's fully in focus and the street lights are blooming like crazy.

Wow. Its not good.
Now I can notice that there's white orbs on John Brawley's night footage. 0:30 and 2:28.
And also Phillip Bloom's footage,
On 2:00, I can see many white orbs.
Hope this issue fixed till I get my bmpcc...

Outerline wrote:Wow. Its not good.
Now I can notice that there's white orbs on John Brawley's night footage. 0:30 and 2:28.

I don't think we're seeing the same things.

jb

So IIRC, the orbs on the X10 were more pronounced at lower ISOs, anybody with access to a Pocket Cam want to try to test the Orbs at different ASAs? Post some examples maybe?

um...ok.
here's some image what I thought white orbs, from your footage...
sorry for capture and using your footage.






also this cut too





btw,
on CaptainHook's Auckland footage, there night shots are full of white orbs.
I think its issue...

Outerline wrote:um...ok.
here's some image what I thought white orbs, from your footage...
sorry for capture and using your footage.

I'm not really convinced. It seems more like normal clipping to me in highlights. There are many many out of focus lights in the background of the vivid footage. Wouldn't it be more prominent ? The green fibre optic one is perhaps the closest maybe but again when you have supersaturated colour like this and overexposure it's not unusual to see what you've highlight there.

jb

John Brawley wrote:
I'm not really convinced. It seems more like normal clipping to me in highlights. There are many many out of focus lights in the background of the vivid footage. Wouldn't it be more prominent ? The green fibre optic one is perhaps the closest maybe but again when you have supersaturated colour like this and overexposure it's not unusual to see what you've highlight there.

jb

ok.
i think they are not normal clipping. but ok, i see. your bmpcc has no white orb issue.
but theres many BMPCCs with this issue.
im not good at english. just i can do is upload image with white orb, to proof.

tired to marking these orbs.
so i marked that looks prominent.

from Captain Hook's






from Phillip Bloom's

i'm just saying there's white orb issue with bmpcc.
until this time, i have not noticed this issue.
i like those footages.
i want bmpcc. i think its good, nice camera.
but with "issue has been fixed"...will be great.

Outerline wrote:um...ok.
here's some image what I thought white orbs, from your footage...
sorry for capture and using your footage.

169403512_00774.jpg

169403512_03552.jpg

also this cut too

169403512_03394.jpg

btw,
on CaptainHook's Auckland footage, there night shots are full of white orbs.
I think its issue...

Thanks for the effort and addressing the Issues Outerline.

Not every defocused clipped light is 'blooming'. That's just crazy, you don't expect every light to be haloing in the sensor...

To be sure we have the issue, it has to be:

1. direct light like car lights or water reflections
2. all in focus and not massively overexposed

Then if there is s problem, then camera will render them as oval white orbs with sharp edges without the halo.

Brooklyn wrote:Who's to say some of those orbs aren't just clipped, round light sources? Either way, the footage has been pleasing to my eyes. There's only so much to worry about before you start wasting money on things that a client won't perceive. Especially so for clients who are paying for Blackmagic footage. This "problem" is only as big an issue as low light discrepancies, being that cameras from all manufacturers typically have limitations and are not perfect. I'd say the whole subject is starting to bloom right out of proportion..

I'm gonna use footage taken from cheesycam and show you what could happened in some situations:


You can see, that this orbs are entering the space of a pedestrians (the heads mostly). Instead of nice smoth halos around the head we have this white hard edges circles. Now look at the example below:


First on the left is good exposure, white background is ok.
In the middle is overexposed background with halos around the edges of a girl.
And the last on the right is what would happened with an image if we had overexposed background shoot with BMPCC.
You think that clients won't see that?
I know they will, because I told one of mine clients that I'm buying the pocket and show him the footage from cheesycam told him, that the quality is superb for such a small camera. And he said that it looks so strange with those white blobs everywhere! The water looks very strange with those white dots he said... Any thoughts!?

Some has to make a controlled test with different exposures and shooting details.
I think that is the best way to get sooner the BM's attention.

It will be really sad if that little gem has sensor issue...

ZEBRIED wrote:

Brooklyn wrote:Who's to say some of those orbs aren't just clipped, round light sources? Either way, the footage has been pleasing to my eyes. There's only so much to worry about before you start wasting money on things that a client won't perceive. Especially so for clients who are paying for Blackmagic footage. This "problem" is only as big an issue as low light discrepancies, being that cameras from all manufacturers typically have limitations and are not perfect. I'd say the whole subject is starting to bloom right out of proportion..

I'm gonna use footage taken from cheesycam and show you what could happened in some situations:


You can see, that this orbs are entering the space of a pedestrians (the heads mostly). Instead of nice smoth halos around the head we have this white hard edges circles. Now look at the example below:


First on the left is good exposure, white background is ok.
In the middle is overexposed background with halos around the edges of a girl.
And the last on the right is what would happened with an image if we had overexposed background shoot with BMPCC.
You think that clients won't see that?
I know they will, because I told one of mine clients that I'm buying the pocket and show him the footage from cheesycam told him, that the quality is superb for such a small camera. And he said that it looks so strange with those white blobs everywhere! The water looks very strange with those white dots he said... Any thoughts!?

This is really tangle, I'm not a professional cinematographer and i noticed it. I hope that BMD has a swift update or fix but i believe any fix would involve recalling the cameras out there and stopping the production line, as it may require hardware alterations (I stand to be corrected) resulting in only one thing. More Delays.

Wow, When I first time watch Hook's video and Pb's footage, I haven't notice that at all !!

I think this issue probably caused by firmware instead of sensor, only raw file can prove if it is cause by sensor.

But in my opinion, Fix black spot issue is more important then this one, though it can be fix in computer, it is very waste of time if I have to shoot something long.

peter9863 wrote:But in my opinion, Fix black spot issue is more important then this one, though it can be fix in computer, it is very waste of time if I have to shoot something long.

But the blooming sensor issue CAN'T be fixed in computer, can it?

John's camera have same problem, check the picture below!

mhood wrote:

peter9863 wrote:But in my opinion, Fix black spot issue is more important then this one, though it can be fix in computer, it is very waste of time if I have to shoot something long.

But the blooming sensor issue CAN'T be fixed in computer, can it?

The advice for the BMPC is "UNDERexpose!" as for the BMCC is "AVOIDthesun!"

Sorry for that, but I really hope this gets sorted out easily and quickly.

gmf wrote:The advice for the BMPC is "UNDERexpose!" as for the BMCC is "AVOIDthesun!"

Sorry for that, but I really hope this gets sorted out easily and quickly.

At least you didn't tell me that "it's a CINEMA camera".

I hope it's an easy fix too. Honestly, I never did clearly see the banding thing in online images but this blooming sensor thing is really obvious to me. I don't understand how anyone could remain "unconvinced" that the problem is real.

Here is a comparison with BMCC of car lights footage ():




and two crops from BMPCC ():

mhood wrote:

gmf wrote:The advice for the BMPC is "UNDERexpose!" as for the BMCC is "AVOIDthesun!"

Sorry for that, but I really hope this gets sorted out easily and quickly.

At least you didn't tell me that "it's a CINEMA camera".

I hope it's an easy fix too. Honestly, I never did clearly see the banding thing in online images but this blooming sensor thing is really obvious to me. I don't understand how anyone could remain "unconvinced" that the problem is real.

I have and all i got was 3 guys throwing bricks from left and right in this thread
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11588&p=73664#p73664
the main issue is as soon as someone comes out addressing an issue with the camera they try to deviate the post. its best that BMD asks them to back off instead of helping them to ram the consumer or the author.

hamid wrote:I have and all i got was 3 guys throwing bricks from left and right...

It's called an ad hominem attack. It also happens to be the silver bullet in a fanboy's arsenal. My suggestion is to get used to it.

Funny that one of those guys has offered to run all of your tests to confirm the issue, and you've accused them of being paid off by BMD and insulted anyone who doesn't agree with your opinions?

I propose to call it the Pinocchio issue from now.

mhood wrote:

hamid wrote:I have and all i got was 3 guys throwing bricks from left and right...

It's called an ad hominem attack. It also happens to be the silver bullet in a fanboy's arsenal. My suggestion is to get used to it.

I thrive for it.

more instringly is they just accused me of insulting numerous members of the forum.

Terry Frechette wrote:The following is a warning which has been issued to you by an administrator or moderator of this site.

Insulting numerous members of the forum.

Mr. Frechette please point out the numerous people whom i have insulted with the specific insult and i will sincerely apologise if an insult had been made.

Raadgie wrote:I propose to call it the Pinocchio issue from now.

I've now had a chance to do some quick tests. Not conclusive at all, seems like the issue is restricted to area that are blown out at this point, but I'll see what more I can find. If there are other test suggestions let me know and I'll see what I can do.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11244#p73677