New camera announcements will be made on July 16

Good thing, i dont need to spend money for a new camera this year. Bad thing, its not what i hoped its going to be.... LF, locking M-Mount. 12k is cool but im not gonna need this anytime soon.
And yes we need a firmware update for the G2, 1:1 zoom feature from the pockets, please.

Has anyone managed to load the new 12K test clips into Resolve?

Im on the newest Studio version with the updated braw SDK and these clips do not show in the media browser, nor can I drag and drop them in.

I see BRAW constant 3:1 has been dropped with 18:1 added, and BRAW Q now supports Q0, Q1, Q3, Q5. BMD was listening to those who asked for more quantization choices.

I wasn't exited about any resolution higher than 4k until he showed how easy it is to edit 12k BRAW on a laptop.
Are we finally getting the camera that can do everything: HD, 4k, 6k, 8k, 12k, and high mega pixel stills without compromises?

I see BRAW constant 3:1 has been dropped and BRAW Q now supports Q0, Q1, Q3, Q5. BMD was listening to those who asked for more quantization choices.

Q5 and Q3 at Full Res / 12K is wonderful—that's what I've mostly been shooting at.

I also think people are getting more hung up on the 12K number, and overlooking the fact that the camera scales full sensor readout to 8K and 4K.

Meaning you don't have to shoot 12K, but you can get every advantage of the sensor at 4K if that's what you want to shoot. There's a lot missing from this conversation... like... a lot.

Looking forward to more thoughts from JB!

I guess all those accesosories are extra so the camera with those accersoerie plus lens will probably put it in the 20k plus cost range.

Ricardo Marty

Ill buy at least 6 and an atem If I win the loto.

I see BRAW constant 3:1 has been dropped and BRAW Q now supports Q0, Q1, Q3, Q5. BMD was listening to those who asked for more quantization choices.

Q5 and Q3 at Full Res / 12K is wonderful—that's what I've mostly been shooting at.

I also think people are getting more hung up on the 12K number, and overlooking the fact that the camera scales full sensor readout to 8K and 4K.

Meaning you don't have to shoot 12K, but you can get every advantage of the sensor at 4K if that's what you want to shoot. There's a lot missing from this conversation... like... a lot.

Looking forward to more thoughts from JB!

Is the 4k scaled down? Is this a completely new type of sensor? Is this all completely new? What else can this sensor do?

I guess all those accesosories are extra so the camera with those accersoerie plus lens will probably put it in the 20k plus cost range.

Ricardo Marty

Ill buy at least 6 and an atem If I win the loto.

Canon C500MKII is way more intresting, and versatile...

Has anyone managed to load the new 12K test clips into Resolve?

Im on the newest Studio version with the updated braw SDK and these clips do not show in the media browser, nor can I drag and drop them in.

Did you install the BETA for both Resolve and Braw SDK?

Kholi, nice to see you again! Can’t wait to learn a lot more about their new sensor. That’s the really big news. It’s the old adage about cameras being good for maybe 5 years but your lenses lasting for decades. This sensor ir some variation of it will last decades. The first camera to implement it won’t.

I see BRAW constant 3:1 has been dropped and BRAW Q now supports Q0, Q1, Q3, Q5. BMD was listening to those who asked for more quantization choices.

Q5 and Q3 at Full Res / 12K is wonderful—that's what I've mostly been shooting at.

I also think people are getting more hung up on the 12K number, and overlooking the fact that the camera scales full sensor readout to 8K and 4K.

Meaning you don't have to shoot 12K, but you can get every advantage of the sensor at 4K if that's what you want to shoot. There's a lot missing from this conversation... like... a lot.

Looking forward to more thoughts from JB!

Is the 4k scaled down? Is this a completely new type of sensor? Is this all completely new? What else can this sensor do?

You have the option to shoot a cropped 8k or scaled 8k, and a cropped 4k or a scaled 4k.

I think people are really missing how important this is. As far as I know there isn't a high end camera that's doing this yet.

I think JB will be able to talk more about the sensor and then I'll follow up with my experiences. The 12K is amazing, I had a similar response to everyone here when I saw it: but wait why 12K?

It took me an entire day to realize what was actually going on, there's so much to it. I think this is a place where the RED camp will actually understand more than anyone else. Go figure.

If you're using K's for reframing in post as a primary reason, then you need to rethink your DoP skillset. Boys and girls, if you want to be a top dog someday, learn to frame right on camera. At least, add it to your list of skill building activities.

Reframing does not necessarily mean fixing the shots in post; it is also a good way to "fake" multi-camera shots. One Ursa Mini 12k can replace three Ursa Mini 4.6k, reducing cost on gear and labor.

I hope a lot of that dynamic range is up in the highlights. The 12K is almost besides the point since there's a lot more packed in there as far as color, etc but I don't know enough from the launch announcement to really understand fully what the advantages are, aside from the obvious ones. I'm in the camp of more dynamic range over a crap ton of resolution, but I don't know if the 14 stops number is being conservative because they're targeting the high end, or if it truly is less dynamic range than the UMP G2.

From what I've tested, the Pocket 6K reaches further into the highlights than the G2 (I shoot it at 800-1000), and I don't really miss whatever I'm losing in the shadows even though the Pocket 6K is noisier. I'm hoping the same goes for the UMP 12K. I hope it reaches farther into the highlights than the Pocket 6K.

Then there's the new highlight rolloff and how highlight recovery in the raw settings in resolve all play into this. Lots of questions.

Down scaling also helps with noise.

I guess all those accesosories are extra so the camera with those accersoerie plus lens will probably put it in the 20k plus cost range.

Ricardo Marty

Ill buy at least 6 and an atem If I win the loto.

A lot less than RED.

If you're using K's for reframing in post as a primary reason, then you need to rethink your DoP skillset. Boys and girls, if you want to be a top dog someday, learn to frame right on camera. At least, add it to your list of skill building activities.

I don't think anyone is talking about 'reframing' in post to make up for 'poor' skills or to be 'top dog'. I did two shoots last week that due to Covid distancing, and not wanting to be on a long lens, we 'reframed' in post.

IMO, reframing should be very limited, not a choice or an excuse. AFAIK, there are a lot of cam ops/DoP who make up their 'poor' skills with the notion that reframing in post will save them, and they do. It happens more than you think and personally, I hear a bit of it from the younger generation of wanna be filmmakers that it really irritates me. When I'm interviewing for a DoP/Cam Op, this is one thing I quiz them on. Anyway, not to derail the post.

Back to my point, the 12K is more of a "Look what we can do from BMD" as oppose to "how can we be practical and support our current customer based". Yes, it's cool and all this but... no honey for me.

You have the option to shoot a cropped 8k or scaled 8k, and a cropped 4k or a scaled 4k.

I think people are really missing how important this is. As far as I know there isn't a high end camera that's doing this yet.

I think JB will be able to talk more about the sensor and then I'll follow up with my experiences. The 12K is amazing, I had a similar response to everyone here when I saw it: but wait why 12K?

It took me an entire day to realize what was actually going on, there's so much to it. I think this is a place where the RED camp will actually understand more than anyone else. Go figure.

Ok... Hey, real quick... Did Olan Collardy have anything to do with the lighting in the demos? I feel like I recognized his style.

We know most current deliverables are 2K. Notwithstanding those who have proven you can’t see the difference, size matters. It is just another creative tool to lead you to new possibilities.

Please don’t forget the huge problem that early car makers faced when the ‘horseless carriage’ was introduced. It was met with years of skepticism because everyone was pretty happy with a real horse drawing their carriage. It has taken well over a hundred years and we still haven’t been able to equal the horse in its ability to get you home after a night of partying. A horse knows where you are going and you could sleep on the way home as the horse drove the carriage. Elon Musk keeps promising he’ll finally be able to replace the horse... someday.

Only people with a Mac can look at the demo footage?

If you're using K's for reframing in post as a primary reason, then you need to rethink your DoP skillset. Boys and girls, if you want to be a top dog someday, learn to frame right on camera. At least, add it to your list of skill building activities.

I don't think anyone is talking about 'reframing' in post to make up for 'poor' skills or to be 'top dog'. I did two shoots last week that due to Covid distancing, and not wanting to be on a long lens, we 'reframed' in post.

IMO, reframing should be very limited, not a choice or an excuse. AFAIK, there are a lot of cam ops/DoP who make up their 'poor' skills with the notion that reframing in post will save them, and they do. It happens more than you think and personally, I hear a bit of it from the younger generation of wanna be filmmakers that it really irritates me. When I'm interviewing for a DoP/Cam Op, this is one thing I quiz them on. Anyway, not to derail the post.

Back to my point, the 12K is more of a "Look what we can do from BMD" as oppose to "how can we be practical and support our current customer based". Yes, it's cool and all this but... no honey for me.

Sometimes during you want something esle so its good to have the option. With this camera you dont have to shoot 12k. you can sook 8 and 4 k.


Ricardo Marty

If you're using K's for reframing in post as a primary reason, then you need to rethink your DoP skillset. Boys and girls, if you want to be a top dog someday, learn to frame right on camera. At least, add it to your list of skill building activities.

I don't think anyone is talking about 'reframing' in post to make up for 'poor' skills or to be 'top dog'. I did two shoots last week that due to Covid distancing, and not wanting to be on a long lens, we 'reframed' in post.

IMO, reframing should be very limited, not a choice or an excuse. AFAIK, there are a lot of cam ops/DoP who make up their 'poor' skills with the notion that reframing in post will save them, and they do. It happens more than you think and personally, I hear a bit of it from the younger generation of wanna be filmmakers that it really irritates me. When I'm interviewing for a DoP/Cam Op, this is one thing I quiz them on. Anyway, not to derail the post.

Back to my point, the 12K is more of a "Look what we can do from BMD" as oppose to "how can we be practical and support our current customer based". Yes, it's cool and all this but... no honey for me.

This is a personal preference. Nothing more. Who cares if you reframe in post? You sound like an old photographer that was angry when digital cameras allowed people to shoot hundreds of pictures instead of 24.

Are film photographers better than digital photographers? Are their photos more "meaningful" because it was captured in 1 shot instead of 50? We'll never know... And.... It doesn't matter.

1. Just because this particular event didn't have any updates for existing cameras doesn't mean BMD has abandoned them. Good golly, even if they did–which they didn't–our cameras would work just fine. Any updates from the date of purchase are just icing on the cake.

2. A 12K, one-to-one ratio RGB sensor should yield an amazingly natural looking 4K image. Free of demosaic artifacts and well above the Nyquist limit for aliasing artifacts. If that scaling is done well in camera, sensitivity doesn't suffer, and read-out times are fast enough, then there are zero downsides in offering such a high resolution sensor.

3. I need to check my math–too lazy–but I think even if you add a monitor, an EF mount, shoulder kit, battery mount and SSD mount, you're still a good bit under $20K, and WAY under a comparable RED kit.

4. This R&D will trickle down to less expensive cameras...just not tomorrow. Tesla started with the Roadster and eventually made the Model 3. That's the path. Those that can afford it, subsidize R&D for those that can't.

Just chatting with a friend who is a partner of a local rental shop in SoCal. He said they rather buy more RED Komodos than the UMP 12K. The Komodos will rent out faster while the UMP 12K not so much.

Editors are going to love having 8K at least from the persoectthat it does give them more creative options in their job. The Director has a vision and the DOP does their best to execute that, but in the end, it’s the editor’s film and the ability to move about the frame is a wonderful luxury and inspiring opportunity to work with the producer to make the best possible film. When you’re shouting 2K to deliver 2K, you appreciate having a DOP that frames exquisitely; when the DOP decides to shoot 12K for 8K capture, even though he/she may be meticulous about framing, the real film is revealed in the edit and producers understand that.

I'm holding out for 48K, so it can match my audio.

Just chatting with a friend who is a partner of a local rental shop in SoCal. He said they rather buy more RED Komodos than the UMP 12K. The Komodos will rent out faster while the UMP 12K not so much.

I'm sure this is due to brand recognition and the average shooters ergonomic preferences. Not the fact that it's 12k.

They said it's aimed at high end shooters.

This is a personal preference. Nothing more. Who cares if you reframe in post? You sound like an old photographer that was angry when digital cameras allowed people to shoot hundreds of pictures instead of 24.

Are film photographers better than digital photographers? Are their photos more "meaningful" because it was captured in 1 shot instead of 50? We'll never know... And.... It doesn't matter.

There you go, making assumptions again. Let me tell you I care when my work has to be reframed in post. Yeah, old photographers and cinematographers... we know what the hell we are doing. Ask Roger Deakins if he'll allow anyone to reframe his shot in post. Go...

As Kholi said... It's also 8K, 6K and 4K. No crop.

So, is the 4K better than the previous 4K? That is the question.

Just chatting with a friend who is a partner of a local rental shop in SoCal. He said they rather buy more RED Komodos than the UMP 12K. The Komodos will rent out faster while the UMP 12K not so much.

I'm sure this is due to brand recognition and the average shooters ergonomic preferences. Not the fact that it's 12k.

They said it's aimed at high end shooters.

Yeah, no one need to rent a 12K camera. High end shooters rent too.

1. Just because this particular event didn't have any updates for existing cameras doesn't mean BMD has abandoned them. Good golly, even if they did–which they didn't–our cameras would work just fine. Any updates from the date of purchase are just icing on the cake.

2. A 12K, one-to-one ratio RGB sensor should yield an amazingly natural looking 4K image. Free of demosaic artifacts and well above the Nyquist limit for aliasing artifacts. If that scaling is done well in camera, sensitivity doesn't suffer, and read-out times are fast enough, then there are zero downsides in offering such a high resolution sensor.

3. I need to check my math–too lazy–but I think even if you add a monitor, an EF mount, shoulder kit, battery mount and SSD mount, you're still a good bit under $20K, and WAY under a comparable RED kit.

4. This R&D will trickle down to less expensive cameras...just not tomorrow. Tesla started with the Roadster and eventually made the Model 3. That's the path. Those that can afford it, subsidize R&D for those that can't.

Just want to quote this because it's exactly the kind of summary that took me an entire day to come to hahaha. Number 2 is huge. huge. huge. huge huge.

This is a personal preference. Nothing more. Who cares if you reframe in post? You sound like an old photographer that was angry when digital cameras allowed people to shoot hundreds of pictures instead of 24.

Are film photographers better than digital photographers? Are their photos more "meaningful" because it was captured in 1 shot instead of 50? We'll never know... And.... It doesn't matter.

This.

An even more parallel example is non-linear editing. Should a "real" editor only cut on a movieola so they can't take back their choices?

Moving destructive creative choices to post where one can step back from the pressure of the moment on the day and take the time to evaluate and experiment is a valuable capability, and a valid choice. If a shot is even 10% better because I reframed it, I won't deny myself, my movie and my audience that possibility for some archaic, macho, masochistic "rule" that was never a rule.

Conversely, if that's how you want to work...go for it. Advances don't preclude you from doing so.

This is a personal preference. Nothing more. Who cares if you reframe in post? You sound like an old photographer that was angry when digital cameras allowed people to shoot hundreds of pictures instead of 24.

Are film photographers better than digital photographers? Are their photos more "meaningful" because it was captured in 1 shot instead of 50? We'll never know... And.... It doesn't matter.

There you go, making assumptions again. Let me tell you I care when my work has to be reframed in post. Yeah, old photographers and cinematographers... we know what the hell we are doing. Ask Roger Deakins if he'll allow anyone to reframe his shot in post. Go...

The answer is still... Who cares? Once it's reframed and delivered, who knows the difference and who cares?

You are obviously a purist. There's nothing wrong with that. However, I'm sure no one hits the record button saying "I'm going to reframe this in post." What actually happens, is they get back to the editing bay and see that it could be reframed. Having the option to do so, is great in my opinion. Relying on it is something different entirely.

Some of you guys are not just getting this new 12K camera sensor. It is not a traditional Bayer sensor, it is more like a 3-CCD SENSOR in one chip. You can get full RGB 4.4.4 image in 12G! You also get a full gate sensor readout at 8K and 6K, no downscaling, no sensor crop. You can also sensor crop to reduce sensor readout times and increase frame rate to 110fps. This sensor is Game Changer.

For those who wanted a new 8K camera — you got it, with the ability to shoot 12K for a clean 8K delivery
For those who wanted a new 6K Camera — you got it, with the ability to shoot 8K for a ...
For those who were,looking for a new 4K camera — You got it, with the ability to shoot 6K for a 4K delivery.

Everyone just about got what they wanted, except it is not a big Micro camera, nor is it a revised Pocket style camera — this a very nice new Cinema Camera in a familiar and successful form factor — the Ursa Mini.

As for paying back the 12G clips, Grant did mention, the new Beta Resolve would be posted in a few days, the current Resolve is Not going to playback the bigger resolution clips, you need to wait for the new Beta version.

Happy Christmas — in July!
Cheers

So, is the 4K better than the previous 4K? That is the question.

The proof will be in the images, but almost certainly so. Even if the color science weren't improved, supersampling an RGB sensor should eliminate a whole litany of artifacts we've had to work around and should yield an image that looks more like scanning film than 1-1 ratio digital capture.

However, I'm sure no one hits the record button saying "I'm going to reframe this in post." What actually happens, is they get back to the editing bay and see that it could be reframed.

Ha! You will be surprise how many folks are like this and actually do this. They know who they are.
Anyway, whatever.
So back to the original post - No firmware update for the Pockets and UMP G2. Are these camera's no longer going to be supported with updates?

Good for you, Denny. I think this sensor is the single most important step BMD has taken. Of course I haven’t seen any results yet but Grant’s description of the changes in Colour Science 5 are very encouraging too so I’d love to play with sample footage editing for HDR and Dolby Vision with BRAW 2.0.

There you go, making assumptions again. Let me tell you I care when my work has to be reframed in post. Yeah, old photographers and cinematographers... we know what the hell we are doing. Ask Roger Deakins if he'll allow anyone to reframe his shot in post. Go...

But what if you are Roger Deakins and you want to be able to reframe in post? Whether technological advances add or take-away control is a workflow issue, not a technology issue.

Why as the DP shouldn't I have that choice? What if I frame exactly as I want and a boom drops into an otherwise perfect shot? What if I'm the director and cinematographer and I'm wrong on the day? What if punching in on the actresses face for that moment would have been a better choice?

I'm just going to say my jaw is dropped. Hit the floor.

I'm still trying to pick up my tongue.

I hope a lot of that dynamic range is up in the highlights.

That's not how dynamic range works. There's no shadow or highlight dynamic range. You just have dynamic range, your curves, and your middle grey point. Bring the middle grey point up gives the impression of pulling more detail from the highlights and bringing it down appears to bring up more detail in the shadows.

That's what how the ISO works on all the BMD cameras except the Pocket 4K/6K which have two analog ISO ranges where it works like that and then the higher ones are analog gain.

Good for you, Denny. I think this sensor is the single most important step BMD has taken. Of course I haven’t seen any results yet but Grant’s description of the changes in Colour Science 5 are very encouraging too so I’d love to play with sample footage editing for HDR and Dolby Vision with BRAW 2.0.

I agree with you and Denny that there's a lot of new innovation, especially the sensor. I question if this is really what's needed now? Sorry, I don't subscribe to technology for technology sake. I understand lots of people do here.

Ha! You will be surprise how many folks are like this and actually do this. They know who they are.?

Like David Fincher. We should all be so terrible.

STANDING OVATION TO HOOK & TIM AND THE CAMERA DEVELOPMENT TEAM!!!

I'm truly impressed. Well beyond my expectations.

...even though he/she may be meticulous about framing, the real film is revealed in the edit and producers understand that.

Thank you. And when you are the producer, director, cinematographer and the editor, it's a godsend.

[CaptainHook]

Has anyone managed to load the new 12K test clips into Resolve?

Im on the newest Studio version with the updated braw SDK and these clips do not show in the media browser, nor can I drag and drop them in.

Resolve 16.3 Public Beta?

Great discussion of pros and cons here. Appreciate all the rationales given. Glad I can’t afford this... yet. If I could I’d order one today.

[quote="Ellory Yu"]Just chatting with a friend who is a partner of a local rental shop in SoCal. He said they rather buy more RED Komodos than the UMP 12K. The Komodos will rent out faster while the UMP 12K not so much.[/


Maybe thats true today tomorrow is onther thing, So many have had to eat there words.


Ricardo Many

But what if you are Roger Deakins and you want to be able to reframe in post? Whether technological advances add or take-away control is a workflow issue, not a technology issue.

You need to subscribe to Deakins post and read what he thinks of reframing... in a nutshell, you won't be working for him.

Why as the DP shouldn't I have that choice?

I didn't say you shouldn't have that choice. I said you have to use it sparingly - so not your first choice.

What if I frame exactly as I want and a boom drops into an otherwise perfect shot?

Do another take. No brainer.

What if I'm the director and cinematographer and I'm wrong on the day?

That's your problem. Reframing should not be your answer. Do it right the next day or don't come back.

What if punching in on the actresses face for that moment would have been a better choice?

That's why you do multiple takes with multiple angles. Don't let laziness overcome your judgement.

Sorry but like it or not, reframing in post is a very common practice now, regardless of who the DP is or if they're happy or not with the idea of doing it.

Sorry but like it or not, reframing in post is a very common practice now, regardless of who the DP is or if they're happy or not with the idea of doing it.

Fair enough Michael. Not that you need 12K to do reframing.

[
The thing about this rumor is that it's not logically looking at things. If Blackmagic goes Full Frame (VistaVision) then it will likely happen in the URSA Mini Pro lineup first. Then eventually it would make it's way to a Pocket type of camera down the road. I have a hard time figuring out why this person doesn't see that. Especially since they have a Pocket 6K already that's Super 35mm Sensor Size.

Because it's Andrew Reid. He's barely an adult. He once had a hissy fit about Blackmagic not inviting him to an event showing off the Pocket 4K that was near him because he felt like he was partly responsible for Blackmagic's success with cameras. I forgot what I said to him on his forums but he responded by posting my email address publicly to try to get his fans to harass me.

Speak of the devil...