Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 19, 2020 11:20 pm

Ah it says "Noise management, sensor profiling and new edge reconstruction algorithms are used to produce high quality cinematic images with incredible depth, crisp details and beautiful image separation."

But I don't think that's anything new. I remember hearing about that when BRAW was announced and I got the impression I had to do more with preventing noise that's introduced during de-mosaicking and maybe trying to cancel out fixed-pattern noise. I'm not sure that there all that much of it going on but I could be wrong.
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 1:37 am

I think they’ve perfected what they can do in BRAW 2 with the 12K symmetrical pixels from the new CFA. So the words might be similar to what they did for the original BRAW Q0, the execution has changed dramatically (and subtly). The in camera 12K to 8K and 4K also helps greatly, but the sample 12K output we see is very nice. Just expect 8K and 4K to look even better.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 2:50 am

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:Well, I'm flattered that you've been following my post for the past 4 years.


All I did was search your name on Google. Found your website with the blurry, noisy shot of you editing in Resolve and followed the link to your IMDB that shows you're earliest stuff being in 2016. I assumed you at least knew about search engines if you have a website. Guess I was wrong.

Ellory Yu wrote:I'm just going to respond to you this once just to let you know that the reason I ignore you (and people like you) is because there's nothing to say to someone whose head is buried in the ground


Such a beautiful way of saying "Actually my temper tantrums are just because I'm smarter than you."


Well, that's good that you're smarter than I am. Ask me if I care. And that... IMDB. For the record, those projects posted on IMDB where just as of 2016 by the project owners and being that you are smarter than me, you know that those credits are automatically generated when the production posted their films. I've been making pictures since 1998, way before IMDB existed. But given that you're just basing what's on IMDB in the last 4 years, let's just say that in that span of years I have edited 2 well paid recent feature films and one short, directed by yours truly, that got a silver award from an international festival. That's more than the 5 home grown shorts you made since 2012. Take that to the bank! And by the way, all my IMDB entries are credits from the production companies who made them, not self posted. Yours were likely self posted and self credited, which I'm sure you're good at because your smarter. Come back and brag when you get your first feature notch in your belt. Best of luck pumpkin. :lol:
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 2:53 am

Mark Grgurev wrote:Ah it says "Noise management, sensor profiling and new edge reconstruction algorithms are used to produce high quality cinematic images with incredible depth, crisp details and beautiful image separation."

But I don't think that's anything new. I remember hearing about that when BRAW was announced and I got the impression I had to do more with preventing noise that's introduced during de-mosaicking and maybe trying to cancel out fixed-pattern noise. I'm not sure that there all that much of it going on but I could be wrong.


Ahh, so they are taking advice from my playbook, good. I was suspicious of that pattern and mentioned need for reconstruction, as I have mentioned for many many years. So, that should be getting a grade higher. Maybe that's how they are going higher compression ratios. But have they adopted the latest edition of my universal staggered image preservation scheme yet, mentioned here last year or three?


We figure out, what others make.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 3:13 am

Ok then, what about a pocket 8k version using this chip for $2000au, should be doable. 12k stills 2/4/8k video. The world would start going nuts, and pay down the development cost real quick. But, going on John's night time model shot on dark skin, it needs an extra few stops of sensitivity and dynamic range, unless that scene can scrub up a lot lighter and highlight recovery can remove the large burnout highlight (I now realise that the model is wearing makeup which is glossy,.picking up the reflection of the light). Makeup is a major pain that takes a long time to compensate for low DR. For quick filming where makeup look doesn't matter so much, higher dynamic range would be great. I didn't think I'd hear myself say this, but there are circumstances were 20stops plus would be handy to handle in scene elements better. Thanks John for bringing it to my attention. It's beyond the emulation of the look of human vision, it's about the control of high light and shadow areas, which is literally beyond 20 stops like an elastic band, depending on the situation. 16 bit 16 stop is really a delivery spec for human vision, a minimum pro spec. It means that 32 stop 32 bit might someday be a possibility. I figure out stuff beyond this, you a sensor design with near perfect rendering for scientific purposes, but for ultimate RGB+ files that could entirely map the normal human visual system.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 4:40 am

Yogendra Singh wrote:What 'Camera Conspiracies' thinks about this 12k camera

"Blackmagic URSA mini Pro shoots 12k video now. So much for the Canon R5 8k, that's so yesterday. Is this the greatest cinema camera ever made? It sounds like the 12k files aren't too hard on the computer, but is it good enough for vlogging and youtube?"

Lol! Don't worry about it.
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Hussain Abdullah

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 11:47 am

Mark Grgurev wrote:Plus as they mentioned, a 12K sensor would allow you to shoot 4K without demosaicing. That reduces provides antialiasing and gets you the sharpest 4K image you can get. 4K on this camera would be particularly amazing for VFX compositing since the sub-pixel composition of the source footage would be the same as the computer generated material.

Did I miss this information in the presentation? The video would still have to be demosaiced at some point to make an image, wouldn't it?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 2:11 pm

John Brawley wrote:Pretend for a second it’s not 12K.

What if it’s a new sensor that creates images in a way that hasn’t been done before, that should lead to almost no aliasing or moire and makes absolutely beautiful colour images.


Yes. Yes. Yes.

Sometimes I think Blackmagic needs "marketing front man" to help the masses get their heads around new concepts and products.
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 3:47 pm

As far as I know the 12K still requires a demosaic step. There is still a colour filter array, but half the photosites are used for luminance and BRAW 2 does its complex magic with clear and coloured photosites.
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 8:04 pm

Hussain Abdullah wrote:Did I miss this information in the presentation? The video would still have to be demosaiced at some point to make an image, wouldn't it?


I was fairly certain they said that. They have to demosaic when using the native resolution of the sensor because you don't have luma and chromo information for each pixel. But at 4k, it make sense to me that they wouldn't have to demosaic at all.


This is the pattern that they're using.
Image

At 8K, you're reducing that 6x6 pixel matrix to a 4x4 matrix. By getting rid of the middle column of pixels and distributed the colors they represent to the outer columns, you get this.

Image

Now take the middle two rows and distribute them to the outer rows and you get this.

Image

You now have half the pixels representing a luma channel and the other half representing all of the color channels. The color channels can produce a second, second darker luma channel by themselves though so a luma channel is technically represented at every pixel.

All channels are then interpolated in the same way though it's not anywhere near the level of guess work that they would need to do if it were shot at native resolution since each pixels can get relevant hints from all it's surrounding pixels.

At 4K, those same 6x6 pixel matrices are now 3x3. We'll go back to the original pattern.

Image

Now lets treat the color pixels and luma pixels separately and collapse both horizontally. It's easier to demonstrate what I mean if I just use the color channels and show this part in the context of the repeated pattern.

Image to this Image

Now we have some missing pixels at the end but that's fine. Since we've only shrunk it along one dimension, we need to shrink it along the other as well. Let's zoom in to 3x6 portion to show this off.

Image

You can see that row as each color represented once and each column as each one represented twice but each pixel only represents one color.

But if we scale it down the 3 rows...

Image

Each pixel now has data from all 3 colors. I have some shadowing to help distinguish the rows. When this process is done to the luma channel, every pixel will already have luma data after the initial collapse, though obviously it still needs to be vertically squishes afterwards.

Now every pixel has a the real luma and all three chroma channels are represented and the color channels can produce that second luma channel at the same resolution as the luma pixels. No demosaicing needed.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 20, 2020 10:30 pm

Fascinating if true. I just don’t quite get your point that 4K is not a demosaic.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 1:13 am

CaptainHook wrote:Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
12K 2.4:1 : ~12.3ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
8K 2.4:1 (full width): ~6.7ms*
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update

Updated the above to include the 2.4:1 options.
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 1:51 am

rick.lang wrote:Fascinating if true. I just don’t quite get your point that 4K is not a demosaic.


4K DCi is 8,847,360 pixels. The UMP 12K has:

13,271,040 red photosights
13,271,040 green photosights
13,271,040 blue photosights
39,813,120 clear photosights

I don't think it counts as demosaicing because it doesn't need to fill in any gaps in data, each channel has 1.5-4.5x more samples than a 4K image has pixels.

Now are they doing it they way I'm thinking? I have no clue. It's probably in the patent and should probably read that lol Is the down-sampling I mentioned still considered demosaicing since it's mixing colors from neighboring pixels? I'm not sure but I generally think of demosaicing to be a kind of weird up-sampling. The luma channel definitely isn't demosaiced at 4K though.

CaptainHook wrote:
CaptainHook wrote:Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
12K 2.4:1 : ~12.3ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
8K 2.4:1 (full width): ~6.7ms*
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update

Updated the above to include the 2.4:1 options.


Thanks, Cap! Think you can tell me whether or not what I'm saying is dumb? I'm second-guessing myself lol
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 1:57 am

Mark, I need to read that US patent soon too as it contains a lot of helpful diagrams. Even if your method isn’t used, you still deserve an “E” for Effort.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 2:20 am

rick.lang wrote:Mark, I need to read that US patent soon too as it contains a lot of helpful diagrams. Even if your method isn’t used, you still deserve an “E” for Effort.



That's very kind of you! :D
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 5:36 am

CaptainHook wrote:
CaptainHook wrote:Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
12K 2.4:1 : ~12.3ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
8K 2.4:1 (full width): ~6.7ms*
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update

Updated the above to include the 2.4:1 options.


Thanks. That extra timing info matters with rolling shutter. Any chance you could do a 2.4:1 mode at a faster frame rate on the original pocket? :
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 6:15 am

CaptainHook wrote:
CaptainHook wrote:Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
12K 2.4:1 : ~12.3ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
8K 2.4:1 (full width): ~6.7ms*
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update

Updated the above to include the 2.4:1 options.


Actually. One of the advanced filming schemes I'm planning, is to set up 120 -180 degree cameras around a set or sports field, to do remote view selection and corrections in post. They now are doing something similar to my 3D scheme like this for sporting fields. So, that's 4.8:1/7.2:1 or 3.55/5.33:1 Broadcast. High speed slow motion sports. They fly the local guy here long distances to film games. It costs a fortune to fly and house a group of people around, enough to pay for a system of locked off POV, operated in booth by somebody local. After you have the orientating view on a large touch screen, you can frame more easily with local talent.

Could we please have a user definable frame function for odd sizes and increased frame rate? Or at least support those frame ratios Captain Hook? Yhsnufm
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 2:16 pm

The primary if only advantage of single chip acquisition is demosaicing. Component is more, pure data, for sure. Is it better? In a component system a pixel is only 1 state. In a demosaicing scheme a pixel can represent a plurality of states through the application of filter kernels. It’s own weight can be added or ignored entirely based on the filter.

Where are we going to watch the 4Kvs.12K peep-off? We’ll just have to watch other people’s reactions to it. “Oh yeah look at that detail, the depth of color in the shadows is breathtaking, I can practically smell the skintones”.

Good Luck
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 4:18 pm

Howard Roll wrote:... “I can practically smell the skintones”.


That’s nice Howard; my reaction this morning when grading the transcode to ProRes is more visceral: it’s so good I want to eat it!
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 6:21 pm

Howard. A component system that is three chip, is three pixeksz and if olpf each one can represent multiple states and be demosaiced.

This might be an new thought, a three chip mosaic (or more or less). Say you can demosaic the other colours at a position, you could then use the other chips for other red green, blue, Bayer,
or complimentary, or monochrome.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 21, 2020 9:08 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Thanks. That extra timing info matters with rolling shutter. Any chance you could do a 2.4:1 mode at a faster frame rate on the original pocket? :


They don't support the original Pocket anymore. Why would they add features to it now?

Mark Grgurev wrote:At 4K, those same 6x6 pixel matrices are now 3x3. We'll go back to the original pattern.


What an incredibly dumb mistake I made. In my mind I was like "I know this can be done but it's not making sense." and I convinced myself the stuff I came up with made sense. Fact is, the 6x6 pixel pattern should reduce to a 2x2 pattern at 4K. I knew that one 4K pixel should present nine 12K pixels. I was so fixated on the 9 pixel thing that I tricked myself into thinking that the 6x6 pattern should shrink to a 3x3 pattern when that's very very wrong. 12K is 3x larger than 4K in both dimensions so the pattern size should be divided to by 3 in both dimensions to get it's 4K representation.

The way 12K can down-sample to 4K is much simpler and if I didn't have that major brain fart than I could have saved myself a lot of time.

Image

Those 4 squares outline what information makes up each 4K pixel. Average pixels from the same channel and that's it.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 2:50 am

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Thanks. That extra timing info matters with rolling shutter. Any chance you could do a 2.4:1 mode at a faster frame rate on the original pocket? :


They don't support the original Pocket anymore. Why would they add features to it now?


I'm communicating with somebody else. Do you need to know it was because they stopped support early, after getting people to wait for a universal firmware look package without needed updates for a very long time. That for business purposes support normally goes on a long time. That it was a little practical question with light implementation (unlike implementing Braw on it, which I think is still a great idea). That for brand marketing purposes, tricking out the old cameras with every little software feature improvement in shared firmware code, and even some advanced features like very basic still functionality and auto focusing. Would you rather own a camera from a company that still looks after old users in little ways, rather than treat them as a commodity. Of course the former makes better business and brand recognition and acceptance. A reduced resolution windowed "Experimental OverDrive 48/50/60p mode", with an on-screen selection Y/N warning that it probably won't always work, or work on all cameras, particularly with hot days and continuous use, probably won't upset people of it doesn't work on their canera. An extension of loadable lut functionality to all cameras too. These make a handy camera, and a handy brand reputation. The fact that the 12k mini ursa is so far from the original $2995, probably doesn't help the low end perception, however these things strategically do build perception of trust and acceptance.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 3:47 am

Now, I understand what you mean, I have had similar, brain damage and being up too much, things start drop out of perception, but at least 3x3 would make 6k oversampling for 4k output.

But still, without demosaicing, those pixels are going to produce mild strobing on details. So, I can't imagine it will always be a simple bin.

Still, I want this camera, but not at these prices. So, a micro 8k version or a 16k pocket full frame producing 16k stills and 8k video, would be good.

Please note: 2.2 micron X 7680 = nearly 17mm, M4/3rds territory,

and

2.2 micron X 16000 = 35.2mm.

Interesting isn't it.

I don't think fullframe is a must in cinema. I don't think it's an absolute in pocket either, but that's an ok space. However, 16k fullframe on cinema at this point in time is more worth the $9995 price. 12k s35 at more than $6k, I'm not so fussed on, and even $6kAU. But a hindered 8k From 16k full frame sensor pocket for $3k is good (though I prefer $3kAU) to exist next to other full frames, as a cinema filming variant. Micro four thirds $2k-$1k UHD pure versions (I prefer $2kAU-$1kAU, but that's not going happen) and a 8k $1k micro (I prefer $1kAU). A single 4k or a 6k camera also. But at the moment I proverbially shudder. 4k micro/pocket $699+, 6k $1298+, 8k pure $1995+, 8k full maybe $2995 or do. Personally, I would go for fewer models 4k micro, 8k pocket/micro (either 8k pure and or full, and the micro might have a pocket screen handle), 12k mini, 16k mini.

Lets break that down again.

8k-12k+ nano action pov, many other markets camera.

8k or 12k micro with screen and pocket case.

maybe 16k full frame head plus screen and pocket case.

12k mini s35

16k Max full frame.

4 - 5 cameras and frankly 3 times less headaches. The micro being able to be put in a pocket or camcorder case. Thinner depth of micro, depending on space required for functionality and cooling (a 4k is likely thinner than a 12k).
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Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 4:03 am

Even better, Wayne. The 8K DCI BMPCC8K camera sensor is 18.0224 or 2x crop. The UMP16K 15K DCI is 36.044 or 1x crop. These are two good reasons to go with 2.2 micron photosites.

Larger dimensions would require medium format unless the photosite pitch shrinks but I hope 16K if it comes will be the end of the K-wars unless there’s some spectacular technology that can deliver smaller photosites. BRAW 3?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:01 am

Contract with IMAX, for an almost 32k X 22k 15 perf 70mm frame which is around 704mp, useful for Omnimax and Dome too, which Arri won't have as good solution for. IMAX would probably invest tens of millions to get that, help paying off development costs, and in developing a next version with a few stops more latitude and low light. At the moment the Chinese have started up in competition to IMAX. Also. Medium format photographers and advertisment and video advertising walk by billboard advertisrrs would get very eager for such a sensor, with $10k for a still camera which did 8k video, easily. Plus, I have a technological scheme to double the value to advertisers. For a more limited non IMAX 16:9 version, $20k-$80k, all from the present design extended to a big sensors, and upgraded to next version. There would be security and other industrial scientific uses as well. I am presently looking at designing a new microscope system, where a 70mm sensor could sample the image of what's on it at 2.2 micron resolution and new technologies to do that well, for rapid use. You could be talking about $70k microscopes. There is a lot of way to make money once you have it, and something to use it on. Basically, once you pay off the previous development this way, your 12k cameras then costs as much as it costs to make them, giving latitude in pricing. A pocket 12k ( up to 8k filming) becomes low cost. Sales projections would be similar to the 4k and 6k pockets, as those users upgrade, plus whoever else gets one as an alternative to rentals, and photographers jump on. Millions of sales with a basic stills mode being upgraded over time, is possible. ASIC would become very affordable, and the most important things, is no sensor manufacturer or chip supplier issues. I know a few different people who could get the chip designed so that even 12k braw could fit in an action cam (tens of millions of possible sales with 180 degree lens h267 is possible which has an accelerated development cycle and forecast release in a few years) with digital zoom and still and video modes. But, is based on Samsung sensor 16 stop single frame HDR, and mini 4.6k like image is possible. These sensors are forecast to go 200mp and sensors are going above 1 inch, and that would be 16k. Using windowing the framing can be selected in post. Xpoint memory can handle the volume. Sports people might choose h267, and pros Braw, but xpoint can keep up, even if the pro spends 10x the money on storage for the 2k-16k sequence of their action shoot framing as required in post. How much is such an action camera worth. $200-$600, depending on ability, even $1000 to film makers on higher budget. The point of the original Nano proposal was up to 8k, where people buy packs of 6 as backups and to use for different fixed points of view. You could set 3 on the interviewer and three on the interviewee, and select from the best view afterwards. One person 6 person shot, where the interviewer could even place the cameras without assistance, or by remote feed assistance. The studio can monitor the feeds at quarter VGA each, to make it easily transmittable over wireless. So, many things can be done, to produce a better world (but you tell the business people how much money it can make from it. Pss, don't let them know, it's really about making a better world too. :) ).
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:12 am

Rick, give me a chance to finish writing what you were about to say mate! :)

I hope you are happy with the follow-up post. Just remember, if I'm posting it, it's likely either I'k already planning something a lot better, or its the end of the line for that thing. I'm already planning much better.

I'm going say it. 0.7 micron pixels are out there. The Samsung sensor photos I posted last year's, or early this year, have dual gain and a micro 4.6k look, at 108mp 0.8 micron. They are trying to challenge Sony. So, good performance is out there, but it's hard to get the best technology to use on your chip. You land up having to buy from suppliers with it, with whatever restrictions built into the design, requiring you to go up in price until you get a model and they allow you to buy it if they sell to you at all. So, it's better to buy, and buy advanced Samsung at this stage for high pixel counts. Samsung isn't competing. Getting them to put a 12k filter pattern on it might be expensive but they might be cheapest to do a quality job.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:15 am

You’re right. With the exception of IMAX, I hope the K-wars end at 16K for ‘full frame’ sensors. 142 megapixels seems a lot, but then that’s for a very large image if 15 perf 70mm; so is 80 megapixels and we have that now.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 9:26 am

Just a wild guess ...The neutral photosites give extra information and make for a optimized triangulated read out.

Both pics are in principle the same.
C65D45E2-F3A6-489A-B4FE-18D6C30B0AD9.jpeg
C65D45E2-F3A6-489A-B4FE-18D6C30B0AD9.jpeg (157.21 KiB) Viewed 1482 times

6AC967DC-A7CB-4CE3-952E-739CF1C45ED9.jpeg
6AC967DC-A7CB-4CE3-952E-739CF1C45ED9.jpeg (145.07 KiB) Viewed 1482 times
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 9:56 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
4 - 5 cameras and frankly 3 times less headaches. The micro being able to be put in a pocket or camcorder case. Thinner depth of micro, depending on space required for functionality and cooling (a 4k is likely thinner than a 12k).


I admire your enthusiasm Wayne, but I have to ask. If you have a unifying sensor, just how many cameras do you need in your range? The 12k is very expensive here in Australia, so we have to presume that there will be other more affordable cameras to come. I can’t imagine more than three, but who knows? John Brawley has already said that the sensors are very expensive to produce, and even economies of scale may not help much due to the relatively small market.

I want this camera too, but plus lenses is a big hole in a pile of money. I am sure we will all be watching BMD very closely.

Steve.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 10:21 am

If someone wants to look into whole patent of that sensor this seems to be it: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190306472A1/en
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 11:00 am

Bunk Timmer wrote:Just a wild guess ...The neutral photosites give extra information and make for a optimized triangulated read out.

Both pics are in principle the same.
C65D45E2-F3A6-489A-B4FE-18D6C30B0AD9.jpeg

6AC967DC-A7CB-4CE3-952E-739CF1C45ED9.jpeg



You're getting it Bunk. Oh, the join of design. I figured out years ago how Sony was claiming 8k from its tilted sensor, triangle interpolation.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 11:09 am

rick.lang wrote:You’re right. With the exception of IMAX, I hope the K-wars end at 16K for ‘full frame’ sensors. 142 megapixels seems a lot, but then that’s for a very large image if 15 perf 70mm; so is 80 megapixels and we have that now.


Rick the 12k is actually less than they even 15perf IMAX, and not compatable with the iMax medium format lens. 32k would give 16k, but for dome or OmniMax you are looking at an extra wide feild of view probably requiring 24k, but some people are going to but a lot of people are closer to the sides, so not even 32k will stop the side views from becoming less than fullhd, but at 32k it will be at least fullhd for the vast majority. So, full sensor has uses, but also for post framing :)
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 11:42 am

:|
Steve Golding wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
4 - 5 cameras and frankly 3 times less headaches. The micro being able to be put in a pocket or camcorder case. Thinner depth of micro, depending on space required for functionality and cooling (a 4k is likely thinner than a 12k).


I admire your enthusiasm Wayne, but I have to ask. If you have a unifying sensor, just how many cameras do you need in your range? The 12k is very expensive here in Australia, so we have to presume that there will be other more affordable cameras to come. I can’t imagine more than three, but who knows? John Brawley has already said that the sensors are very expensive to produce, and even economies of scale may not help much due to the relatively small market.

I want this camera too, but plus lenses is a big hole in a pile of money. I am sure we will all be watching BMD very closely.

Steve.



The question is not to make money, but how to make money, to pay for the things we enjoy.

Development costed tens of millions I heard

That cost and interest is recovered across units produced.

If production is improved over time (the usual) the actual cost per unit comes down. I don't imagine this need cost really much more than other s35 sensors given the same types of sensor line, and units of production. I doubt it's that special except maybe in licensing costs. So, eventually it could cost similar to other s35 sensors. Now, if you got tens of millions investment to develope an IMAX cameras, you have money that further improve it on another round of development (as it would take 1-2 years to deliver the camera anyway, and the sensor design has to be broadened to IMAX format anyway. The work helps develop different versions of the sensor. With the volume going up 100x times, the actual production costs can be inline with other commodity s35 sensors, still cameras sensors. That is a lot cheaper than you think. Even on mobile phones a prime sensor is rollers, and lens rollers, from memory. Now, scale up to s35, say less than 10 times bigger. Once you hit high enough numbers and enough accuracy of production, the cost of the sensor could be less than $50 (padded guess here). So, you are in the range of a pocket. To cover everything without the extra money and market numbers, it currently might cost $1000 or more. So, depending on what John was told, from the perspective of the engineer who told him, it might indeed be too expensive, given all the stuff I mentioned, to offer in a camera less than $9995. The other stuff I put here, is just a strategy to pay off a lot of costs, and raise volume numbers to reduce costs, getting production efficiency and ratio of good sensors higher, is up to them. Imagine if they could have done a pocket 16k Braw 8k to release against the Sharp (Red) 8k pocket this year for the same price? Imagine how they would feel? They were talking prices for that thing, and still were. Now the 8k Canon has crashed the party, it should have released early last year. Now, they need to go into the $2k and under territory to stay bright, with its consumer video codec. It's a tragedy for Sharp, they were promising the possible when others ignored it, then delayed.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 12:04 pm

Now, BM is big on more cameras. There are just so many. Multiple Mini 4.6k, productions cameras, micros and pockets, a lot more than 3 or 5. If rather have a single camera replace 3 or 5 other cameras. I'm taking less, not more. You just get to the point that if you go to less cameras, you won't have enough to offer at different levels. Some people want under $1000, other want more at under $2000, others want more below $4000 etc etc. You can only break down the number of models so much. You have only do many performances and features to offer. 4k could be a cheap base line, 8k is another standard level, M4/3rds is one thing, s35 is mother thing, full frame is another thing. Fullframe is just too much focusing for a lot of people, m43 looks to little to some, s35 format lens is standard, and that is just the bottom end handheld. Then you get the top end shoulder mountable. Do you need anything under 8k sensor on that, not really, the pockets can do that. Then you get s35-fullframe on the mini, even mf, 12k-16k, even 32k. So, you have a few different natural combinations of features for cameras here too.

Heres another proposal, a fullframe mini 16k with quick swap in s35 mount. But, we already have a s35 12k.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 12:24 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Image

Those 4 squares outline what information makes up each 4K pixel. Average pixels from the same channel and that's it.


I'll bite. What would determine the color of each square? Averaging pixels from the same channel leaves much to the imagination.

Good Luck
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 1:55 pm

And this is how it actually works.

Image
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Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 4:34 pm

Very interesting, eh? No Sony triangles.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:07 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:There's an overwhelming pour of support for the 12K UMP here... glad that is the case. The new sensor is nice, yet proprietary.


I'm not actually surprised that BMD pulled off 12K... but I am surprised at how soon it did, and even more surprised (pleasantly) but the maximum frame rate IN 12K.

Wasn't that not just too long ago that having a proprietary technology was frown by BMD?


I don't think that frowned upon is accurate. The 4.6K sensor is also a custom design, after all. I don't get the impression that BMD has been resistant to proprietary sensors; releasing lower cost cameras with off-the-shelf sensors leads me to believe that the motivation was to get new stuff out there while keeping the development on this new sensor going. Being such a new sensor, it's possible that BMD launched that R&D project without really having a solid idea bout how long it would need to go from concept to product. There are a lot of unknowns involved in developing new things, which makes timelines for that sort of effort very difficult to predict.

Anyway, this is also a hard pass for me.


Not for me... though it's going to have to wait a bit because of your next point.

Also wrong timing for a new high end and priced high camera. The disease known as COVID-19, has devastated swaths of the entertainment industry: Movie theaters are ruined; big-budget films are being pushed back to next year, who knows.


Not to ignore the rest of that huge paragraph, but it was long. There will be a lot of people bailing on the film industry during this period, especially in the US where the government is doing its level best to screw as many citizens as possible... and sabotaged the test infrastructure, so covid testing in the US is a joke, throwing yet another massive bottleneck into film production.

That said, those of us who are able to use this time to build themselves up will have a big edge when things DO start up again. There will be a huge demand for content...

The problem with BMD is that they tend to leave "old" product behind and focus on their "new" product - which is bad for existing and loyal customers, hence brand as well.


I don't agree with that at all. Part of what BMD does to keep the costs of its products down is to make them monolithic rather than modular. Personally, I'd prefer to have a UMP 12K plus a tinycam (micro sized) with identical sensor technology than to have a tiny body for a UMP 12K and have to add a module to get XLR, timecode, and SDI connectors. Even the long time champion of ultra-modular cameras is heading that way. I'd been planning to upgrade my Red to a Ranger, but now I'm thinking of supplementing it with a 12K instead.

For me, I have several projects for the next 18 months, all lined up for shoot using my BMD UMP 4.6K G2 and Pocket, and also some will be using rented RED Komodo. So I'm not looking for anything else or anything new. Bottom line, all these kudos and hype still has to be proven and seen. Let's see how they do 18 months from now with this new camera. Good luck BMD.


The pandemic will slow sales down, of that there's no doubt. BMD is probably aware of that though, and as we've seen BMD is quite willing to make long plans rather than relying on short ones -- look at the history of BMD absorbing DaVinci Systems... That the first BMD cinema camera came a few years after that was definitely not a coincidence. And witness Fairlight, Eyeon, Ultramatte... they weren't acquisitions for the sake of faking growth by buying customers, BMD integrated the teams into BMD. Think about that for a minute. After dedicating 3 years of R&D to this sensor, do you really think that BMD would let a year of slower than optimal sales discourage it from continuing to make new stuff?

The only thing that would lead to that is everyone universally hating the camera, and from the sample footage so far, that seems unlikely.

Once more people get used to the idea that this new sensor tech doesn't require windowing for lower than full resolution, excitement about it will surge, I think.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:20 pm

Howard Roll wrote:I'll bite. What would determine the color of each square? Averaging pixels from the same channel leaves much to the imagination.

Good Luck


If you average pixels of the same channel then that gives you three color values and 2 luma values per square.

Here it is demonstrated in Fusion. The input image is a 6192x4128 image taken with a Foveon sensor. I cropped it to 6K, then used a Custom Tool to remove information per channel according to the Ursa 12K's pattern in order to turn it into mosaicked image. Then I used another Custom Tool to downsample the image to 2K by average pixels of the same channel within those squares.

Image
The left side is the input image, the right side is the output. Both are displayed at their native pixel size.

This doesn't actually use the luma pixels at all. However, you'll also notice that there's obvious zippering artifacts in the downsampled image. I'm not sure if this is just the flow of this whole method (probably is) or if my code is wrong somewhere. The Custom tool is very difficult to debug. The Canon C300 did essentially the same thing I'm doing here but with a 2x2 pixel bin from 4K to 2K and that didn't have these same issues.
Last edited by Mark Grgurev on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:26 pm

rick.lang wrote:You’re right. With the exception of IMAX, I hope the K-wars end at 16K for ‘full frame’ sensors. 142 megapixels seems a lot, but then that’s for a very large image if 15 perf 70mm; so is 80 megapixels and we have that now.


I was honestly not expecting us to reach even 12K this year, so... :)
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 pm

rick.lang wrote:Very interesting, eh? No Sony triangles.


That was about upscaling there, and down scaling here.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:43 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Pretty awesome pictures, generated form equal numbers of red, green and blue pixels.
...
JB


John, would that be repeating groups of:

rgb
brg
gbr

?
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The next cameras:

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 5:43 pm

Have a look here. It talks about the next lower resolution and lower priced cameras with this technology coming soon:

https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic-des ... ment-69514

BlackMagic Raw, BRaw, is 12bit log, like Arri Raw, and when unpacked, in editing software, is 16bit.
The full-frame, lower resolution version is coming out.
The full sensor read out technology is the breakthrough here; it will be on smaller cameras soon. Also, the Gen5 color science.


A leak, and not buy a Red user walking by a Pocket promo sign.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 6:21 pm

Yogendra Singh wrote:What 'Camera Conspiracies' thinks about this 12k camera

"Blackmagic URSA mini Pro shoots 12k video now. So much for the Canon R5 8k, that's so yesterday. Is this the greatest cinema camera ever made? It sounds like the 12k files aren't too hard on the computer, but is it good enough for vlogging and youtube?"


Well Blackmagic, you have been properly chastised by Mr. Conspiracy himself. You have been challenged to created the next action, cinemagraphic, vlogging camera!
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 6:21 pm

I am curious as to why they spent the R&D to allow the SDK to write to two cards, when they could have made the switch to CFexpress.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 6:31 pm

Nick Lavigne wrote:I am curious as to why they spent the R&D to allow the SDK to write to two cards, when they could have made the switch to CFexpress.


Probably for the same reason as Red, i.e. the spec wasn't finalized early enough in the camera's development cycle.

Cost might also be a factor, but then BMD also built a USB-C option that supports laptop drives. The way that is implemented is pretty smart, complete with a locking USB-C cable.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 6:33 pm

And they already had code for this approach from the original URSA and the BMPCC4K.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 6:41 pm

Nick Lavigne wrote:I am curious as to why they spent the R&D to allow the SDK to write to two cards, when they could have made the switch to CFexpress.


Because being able to shoot to two cards allows you to record to larger range of media. On the UMP 2K, I could record 12K 24fps footage by just using two of the Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC cards that I used to use with the GH2 back in like 2012. Two of those at 256 GB would cost $140 while one 512GB CFExpress card costs $600.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 6:45 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:If you average pixels of the same channel then that gives you three color values and 2 luma values per square.

Your image is already demosaiced. Pulling a color channel and reassembling the image at a lower resolution is not the same thing as demosaicing. Nor are the units symmetrical, a different filter would need to be applied to each unit to spatially locate the pixels, which brings us back to demosaicing or at least partial.

I only kinda figured out how demosaicing works a couple months ago, so trying to explain it so that we can debate is well........ I'm going to park this here.

The image illustrates the derivation of just the chrominance image on the 12k sensor. It's substantially more complex than averaging adjacent pixel groups. Then again I could be totally wrong.

Good Luck

chrominance.jpg
chrominance.jpg (394.23 KiB) Viewed 1185 times
Last edited by Howard Roll on Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 22, 2020 6:55 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Your image is already demosaiced.

The source image I used was never mosaiced to begin with. It was taken with a Foveon sensor. That's why I have a node that converts it to a mosaic.

Howard Roll wrote:Pulling a color channel and reassembling the image at a lower resolution is not the same thing as demosaicing. Nor are the units symmetrical, a different filter would need to be applied to each unit to spatially locate the pixels, which brings us back to demosaicing or at least partial.

I'm not trying to demosaic anything. I was trying to show that you wouldn't need to demosaic to get a 4K image from the full 12K sensor.
Last edited by Mark Grgurev on Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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