Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Jul 25, 2020 8:52 pm

Grant, see my previous post, the page is broken. Using desktop web browser mode to find them.

There are different ways to do highlight recovery, which should be used together. Highlight recovery normally works vertically into the other colour channels, averaging works horizontally in the same colour channel. You can use both at once.
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rick.lang

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Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Jul 25, 2020 9:07 pm

John Brawley wrote:... No one has picked up yet that the clip of the woman that's the first one to download was shot at Q5... If you do the maths on that with the file size then the compression rate is astonishing.

It's 60:1 !!
...
JB


We should have known these clips would have some Easter eggs waiting to be discovered! Really pleased with the range of test situations you and the Captain have shown.

When I would do the same analysis on my Q0, Q5 tests when BRAW first came to the BMPCC4K, I found Q5, which was rated as low as 20:1, was giving me 40:1 in a simple scene. And Q0 was going with even lower compression than it’s rated value. I posted at the time that the Q ranges are just a guideline and totally dependent upon the scene complexity, edges, and so on.

It is hard to believe 60:1 produces a very good image. I need to check out the others to see what quantization compression they actually are... later.
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 1:07 am

Wayne Steven wrote:There are different ways to do highlight recovery, which should be used together. Highlight recovery normally works vertically into the other colour channels, averaging works horizontally in the same colour channel. You can use both at once.


That's how Resolve does it. That kind of recovery is never done in-camera because it can sometimes introduce false color. When you have two luma channels though, then simply averaging combines those signals well enough.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 1:10 am

When I was much younger than than today, I came to the realisation that I could compress very high resolutions into one byte, even 1 bit infinite resolution. Nevertheless to say that the pixel array was either one of two patterns. That pretty much sums up compression. A lot of guys don't realise that. It is just representing data, rather than compressing anything. So, size difference doesn't matter, it is if you can represent it or not. I latter realised how to compress true randomness. So, without looking at it, it's probably not just compressing areas that are easy to compress in situations like that. But if they read my early public writings on compression, which someone at Red did, then they should be able to get up to 75% of the way to visual perfection, and that is only the simple stuff, I didn't reveal the good stuff, where I'm hoping to get 10:1 lossless at least, up to 1000:1, normal video scenes. I'm hoping 5:1 is at least an internal codec swap.
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 1:18 am

Wayne Steven wrote:When I was much younger than than today, I came to the realisation that I could compress very high resolutions into one byte, even 1 bit infinite resolution. Nevertheless to say that the pixel array was either one of two patterns. That pretty much sums up compression. A lot of guys don't realise that.


How many of your posts are sarcastic or in a character?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 1:20 am

Well, if they are on it, they will realise they could avoid false colour mostly and make it removable afterwards. But when you average between lateral pixels you could be on top of a detail/edge, or chroma event, the available channel can give indication of an event happening and help lead the averaging towards the value it should be. Averaging is a basic upscaling technique.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 1:24 am

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:When I was much younger than than today, I came to the realisation that I could compress very high resolutions into one byte, even 1 bit infinite resolution. Nevertheless to say that the pixel array was either one of two patterns. That pretty much sums up compression. A lot of guys don't realise that.


How many of your posts are sarcastic or in a character?


It's not sarcastic, I'm a philosopher of science. Realise that what I said is true, and know it philosophically shows an aspect of compression.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:02 am

Mark Grgurev wrote:... When you have two luma channels though, then simply averaging combines those signals well enough.


@Mark
In post, is there anytime adding the two luma channels, instead of averaging them, makes sense?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:35 am

rick.lang wrote:@Mark
In post, is there anytime adding the two luma channels, instead of averaging them, makes sense?


You might do that if there's no chance of things clipping. Averaging is safer because it still adds the two together but the extra divide keeps the values within range. It still adds detail to the highlights, boosts the shadows, and denoises stuff throughout.

There's no doubt better algorithms than a simple average that better retains signal but I'd have to think about that more and I'm not sure how much better that could really be.
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:57 am

My thinking is you might get a higher dynamic range, better low light luminance, but the algorithm would need to protect highlights to some degree. But it might not really help if it caused noise to be increased.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 3:11 am

The DOzFILM Picton Zooms look quite interesting and a reasonable price. Anyone know anything about them other than is on the website?

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 5:29 am

Wayne Steven wrote:So, is Captain Hook, Grant?


Don’t know, I guess he could be, but Captain Hook has been around for a long time and I don’t think anyone has liked him to Grant before. It makes sense for Grant to be on here under a pseudonym, but to have maintained anonymity for all this time is quite an achievement. We may never know!

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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 5:34 am

I’m sure that we could get to the bottom of this mystery one day, but this is way Off Topic.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 6:33 am

Steve Golding wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:So, is Captain Hook, Grant?


Don’t know, I guess he could be, but Captain Hook has been around for a long time and I don’t think anyone has liked him to Grant before. It makes sense for Grant to be on here under a pseudonym, but to have maintained anonymity for all this time is quite an achievement. We may never know!

Steve


Hook is a filmmaker who was hired in 2014 by BMD. You can see him behind the camera in a shot in the video they made with the production camera 4k.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16724
In the video at 1:39 min
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 am

rick.lang wrote:I’m sure that we could get to the bottom of this mystery one day, but this is way Off Topic.


Not really, he's here. :)

Steve,

Grant gets into all the stuff, we know from interviews, and he might have been the person I was emailing about a simple way to bring raw compression years back (lost the emails), but good old Robert has solved the mystery. We just presume he must be in charge, because he's a captain. :)


Thank you Robert.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 8:15 am

So Mark. I wrote up an explanation of detail problems of averaging for you, using a simple extreme example of star fields that will not properly average at full resolution due to main values falling in-between pixels of the same colour, producing blinking with movement and colour cast, say green stars etc (which you can solve in that case, by tracking accross frames). But, I lost the post near the end, and dont want to redo the amount of effort.

Now, when you move onto more complex scenes, such highlights in clouds, important details and shifts can appear between like pixels too at full resolution, so you can check and approximate the other channels from the value of the visible channel, as most channels overlap each other in the visible spectrum, green overlapping red and blue the most. As said you can auto get it right, and build in the safe guard of being able to identify and reverse in post. But, as is, when channels independently clip they can already produce false colour, highlight recovery should be about evening this out by squashing down values to record white or natural colour shade versions on the highlight, thus squeezing more dynamic range into the values. You can read my previous discussions related to this and colour rendering of lights by intelligent ramping function that understands the misrendering of things like tail lights, red traffic lights, and stage lights, which produce a smooth transition to the maximum representation of that colour. If you look at an led light array, the problems colouref light is often of a specific monochromatic narrow frequency range, of some colour. That can be detected and the light ramp shape rendering shaped based in the data for natural appearance up to a maximum value for that hue of colour without the colour shifting. Helps a lot with Rick's stage light issues, as you also apply it to super saturated surfaces. I think I wrote about it in one of Dimitry's threads. And maybe years and years back. I'm happy to see BM indicating they look like they are going to deal with these lights too. I feel like Burt Newton in his Logie award speech. F b.

This is dozens of things I've contributed to this industry now.


New compression technique:

Actually, I can save BM a ton of data on file size. Get the old optical vision text books out, and perceived resolution tracks light value, meaning, you can render different resolution based on pixel values. But as compression here works on approximation, they can simply also lower the need for approximation accuracy also on light value, which is like a quantitisation step. But this bakes in an image, but a set look based mode is handy in ENG, in 20:1-60:1. To avoid baking in the image you preserve fuller resolution values over larger value ranges, so it can be graded. So, you determine that severely pushing a grading can push pixel values into a range needing higher resolution, and preserved those parts in higher resolution. So, you might 50% reduced file size, depending on scene.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 9:29 am

Just realised that should be DZOFILM Pictor Zooms, any body?

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 12:09 pm

This camera I'm afraid will be the same story as the BIG URSA fade away like an candle..in a short time..
Very few people will need this camera. No one asked for this an upgrade to 6k or 8k was more than enough with higher DR that is what most people care.
Resolution is getting more and more the same story as sound installation 1000W speakers 40,000 Hrz and **** sound.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 1:13 pm

The important thing for BM is owning a NEW top flight sensor that will trickle down to cheaper full frame models later. I dont want to buy the G2 Only to find a better model soon to be released Fallen for that before.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 1:49 pm

Peter Selbie wrote:This camera I'm afraid will be the same story as the BIG URSA fade away like an candle..in a short time..
Very few people will need this camera. No one asked for this an upgrade to 6k or 8k was more than enough with higher DR that is what most people care.
Resolution is getting more and more the same story as sound installation 1000W speakers 40,000 Hrz and **** sound.


The concept of shooting higher resolutions than your delivery format is nothing new. The concept goes back to the film era. In this case, the resolution is there for FX work, moire suppression, and better quality 8K and 4K.

Those saying this camera will suffer the same fate as the original Ursa have no idea what they're talking about. If 6K and 8K with higher DR is what you care about, you still get that with this camera without even having to shoot 12K.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:06 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Peter Selbie wrote:This camera I'm afraid will be the same story as the BIG URSA fade away like an candle..in a short time..
Very few people will need this camera. No one asked for this an upgrade to 6k or 8k was more than enough with higher DR that is what most people care.
Resolution is getting more and more the same story as sound installation 1000W speakers 40,000 Hrz and **** sound.


The concept of shooting higher resolutions than your delivery format is nothing new. The concept goes back to the film era. In this case, the resolution is there for FX work, moire suppression, and better quality 8K and 4K.

Those saying this camera will suffer the same fate as the original Ursa have no idea what they're talking about. If 6K and 8K with higher DR is what you care about, you still get that with this camera without even having to shoot 12K.

Yeh yeh Arri is still shooting with 2.8 K and blow everything in its environment away
Race for the resolution is getting ridiculous and unbelievable. It is nothing more than a commercial trick. Go and buy it
I would buy 100 G2 than one 12K camera like this and it has no more DR than G2 one stop less so none improvement there
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:20 pm

BMD has a double edged sword they are wielding. The current 12K camera, as stated numerous times, will provide a better 4K, 6K and 8K image then, can we say "anything"?, anything else out there. This is the big current plus for this camera. The issue starts the minute they move this sensor down to a pocket cinema camera size.

Currently there is not a financial big jump from the BMPCC 6K and the Ursa 4.6K. And when you look at the jump with the new Canon and Sony cameras, again not a big jump between them and the URSA 4.6K. Within a few thousand dollars they all sit together.However there is a much bigger jump between all of those and the new 12K camera. So what happens when BMD announces a new 8K camera in the new "pocket" or "box" size for around $4,000 - $5,000? It depends on how they neuter it compared to the 12K camera.

If the price point for an 8K camera is $4,000 - $5,000 and delivers on the BMD quality then where is the incentive for the 12K. Certainly there is hope that the 12K still have some power tweaks yet to come, and you can assume the any new 8K camera will not have the ability to shoot in all speeds, especially at the higher resolutions. But is that enough of a difference for someone to purchase a 12K camera over a newly released BMD 8K camera? The timeframe for the release of the next pocket camera from BMD is critical for the popularity of the 12K camera. Personally I would look at what it takes to reduce the form factor of the 12K, to replace the current 6K, and work on a 16K version of the URSA. And release the new 8K pocket version in 12-18 months. Allow the 12K camera to breath and be somewhat assured that everyone else is playing a huge catch-up game.

Of course I fully admit I know nothing about what's best for the market space, BMD, and BMD customers.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:32 pm

Peter Selbie wrote: Yeh yeh Arri is still shooting with 2.8 K and blow everything in its environment away
Race for the resolution is getting ridiculous and unbelievable. It is nothing more than a commercial trick. Go and buy it
I would buy 100 G2 than one 12K camera like this and it has no more DR than G2 one stop less so none improvement there


Arri is a good camera manufacturer and the best PR-company in the movie industry by a long shot.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:53 pm

Peter Selbie wrote:This camera I'm afraid will be the same story as the BIG URSA fade away like an candle..in a short time..
Very few people will need this camera. No one asked for this an upgrade to 6k or 8k was more than enough with higher DR that is what most people care.
Resolution is getting more and more the same story as sound installation 1000W speakers 40,000 Hrz and **** sound.


Then maybe let’s take away the number some people keep tripping over. 12k.

Let’s take that away and talk about colour.

Let’s talk about how this is a brand new approach too making a sensor that makes colour in a whole new way that’s never been done before in a cinema (or stills) camera.

Because that’s one of the biggest pluses here.

I’ve never cared that much for resolution. But I do care about how the pictures “look” and grade and perform.

I think that’s a massive difference between the URSA and the 12K.

The OG Ursa was not a great sensor in a radical new body. People would have come around to the body if the sensor delivered. It didn’t. I was never a fan. Low base ISO, low DR, lot’s of issues with noise. It’s only saving grace was global shutter.

This is a sensor that’s very similar to the current G2 in terms of ISO and DR but now we’ve added another “dimension” to it’s performance in terms of colour and the way it deals with colour in the image.

That’s the “marketing promise” that should be being made. 12K is just a symptom of what they did to design better pixels to make really nice colour for an 8K delivery camera.

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:55 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:So Mark. I wrote up an explanation of detail problems of averaging for you, using a simple extreme example of star fields that will not properly average at full resolution due to main values falling in-between pixels of the same colour, producing blinking with movement and colour cast, say green stars etc (which you can solve in that case, by tracking accross frames). But, I lost the post near the end, and dont want to redo the amount of effort.


It really sounds like you're talking about when astral photographers stack pictures taken at different points in time. That's not what I'm talking about.

Also what are you referring to when you say "main values"?

Wayne Steven wrote:This is dozens of things I've contributed to this industry now.


There's no reason for any of us to believe that considering you always claim you thought of great ideas years before anybody else yet there's no information about you anywhere. Cross-referencing your name and compression on your search engine of choice just leads to posts you've made here and I've never seen you post any sort of papers that you wrote on any of these topics.

Peter Selbie wrote: Yeh yeh Arri is still shooting with 2.8 K and blow everything in its environment away
Race for the resolution is getting ridiculous and unbelievable. It is nothing more than a commercial trick.


So? That doesn't mean there isn't something to gain from shooting at higher resolutions especially when the disadvantages of lower resolutions, especially with demosaicing, are well-known.

Peter Selbie wrote:I would buy 100 G2 than one 12K camera like this and it has no more DR than G2 one stop less so none improvement there


Again, this camera has 14 stops at 12K. Scaling down to 8K or 4K increases dynamic range so there's reason to believe that shooting 4K on this camera will result in a higher detail, higher dynamic range image than the G2.

John Brawley wrote:12K is just a symptom of what they did to design better pixels to make really nice colour for an 8K delivery camera.


I'd prefer to say that it's a means to an end more than a symptom lol
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 2:59 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Hook is a filmmaker who was hired in 2014 by BMD. You can see him behind the camera in a shot in the video they made with the production camera 4k.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16724
In the video at 1:39 min



Errrr...that’s not Hook in the video, but he did shoot (And edit and grade)that video.

Hilarious discussion.

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 3:22 pm

MishaEngel wrote:Arri is a good camera manufacturer and the best PR-company in the movie industry by a long shot.


I’d argue they’re a pretty terrible PR company too.

It’s really only because they made such a good camera that they’re still in business.

They were well known to almost be going under. The D20 / D21 was not a success at all. The Alexa “saved” them in many ways. It was successful but not because of PR.

PR is a contract with the end consumer. If you don’t deliver on the promise of what you’re marketing / selling, then you won’t carry consumers.

Arri have developed a trust and relationship with their user base for decades and if they didn’t keep delivering on that, eventually they would loose that faith.

They’re a very conservative company when it comes to PR and marketing. They’re well known to have had a 4K+ S35 camera around for a couple of years now. They still haven’t announced it or launched it. They’re still “working” on it....

At the time Alexa launched RED ONE and the Genesis (Panavision) / Sony F35 was the only other option.

For a non digital experienced DP in 2010 when Alexa launched you could shoot with a RED ONE, or go for the 2/3” cameras like a Viper or F900 or a Panavision Genesis or a if you were lucky a Dalsa origin...

Arri also had their own camera, the D20/21 but it was kind of like they took the mechanical parts of an Arricam ST, optical VF and shutter and all, and put a biscuit tin with 4 SDI connectors on the back. It was as big as a 35mm camera, but you still had to plug it into a Sony HDCAM recorder via two SDI cables and they were pretty unrealiable. You were also still recording on TAPE. Codec had started to develop some heinously expensive solid state media. From memory the solid state recorder was more expensive than the 150K camera. I know all this from having shot with one. https://flic.kr/p/HGtjF

Alexa made shooting digital simple. No complicated menus, all on board recording and simple camera functions. Sony made media that could plug right into a Mac laptop. It’s hard to describe how revolutionary that was at the time. RED’s menus were (still) quite deep and complex. Sony’s have always been so.

Here was the first cinema camera that worked like film worked. You chose an ISO and you chose a WB and off you went. That’s all you needed and it made great pictures.

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 3:29 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Peter Selbie wrote:This camera I'm afraid will be the same story as the BIG URSA fade away like an candle..in a short time..
Very few people will need this camera. No one asked for this an upgrade to 6k or 8k was more than enough with higher DR that is what most people care.
Resolution is getting more and more the same story as sound installation 1000W speakers 40,000 Hrz and **** sound.


Then maybe let’s take away the number some people keep tripping over. 12k.

Let’s take that away and talk about colour.

Let’s talk about how this is a brand new approach too making a sensor that makes colour in a whole new way that’s never been done before in a cinema (or stills) camera.

Because that’s one of the biggest pluses here.

I’ve never cared that much for resolution. But I do care about how the pictures “look” and grade and perform.JB



JB drops the mic...

The colors and skin tones are jaw dropping gorgeous and the reason I'd buy it.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 3:36 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:Hook is a filmmaker who was hired in 2014 by BMD. You can see him behind the camera in a shot in the video they made with the production camera 4k.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16724
In the video at 1:39 min



Errrr...that’s not Hook in the video, but he did shoot (And edit and grade)that video.

Hilarious discussion.

JB


Thank you for destroying the mental picture I have had from Hook for the last 6 years. So who's that guy then?
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John Brawley

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 5:17 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Thank you for destroying the mental picture I have had from Hook for the last 6 years. So who's that guy then?



Ha you're welcome.

I could post a picture, but then we'd destroy the secret mystery. He's a shy guy. For the right price I'll even tell you his real name....

Here's a clue. He was also a successful enough musician to have appeared in a few music videos....

JB
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 5:18 pm

Peter Selbie wrote:This camera I'm afraid will be the same story as the BIG URSA fade away like an candle..in a short time..
Very few people will need this camera. No one asked for this an upgrade to 6k or 8k was more than enough with higher DR that is what most people care.
Resolution is getting more and more the same story as sound installation 1000W speakers 40,000 Hrz and **** sound.


I wish I had 1000w speakers, some of my neighbours have over 2000w RMS (Maybe way more Peter) and it's hard to hear things on some cinema tezvjs, on my 550w system. But at least the 96khz files sound do good, unless my ears are clogged up.

My advice is, you may not want it, but that doesn't mean nobody else will buy it particularly because of that reason. That leadership is part about finding what works better that people don't realise yet. BM has done a fair job of this.

I doubt it's going be a big ursa, which I suggested, but boy it was big, and the upgrades are a selling point, that didn't work out.

If you look at the dimensions you will notice it's pretty wide and big compared to the mini 2/3rds camera. It's big, but looks smaller under Grant's hands. So how big is Grant?
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 6:03 pm

MishaEngel wrote:
Peter Selbie wrote: Yeh yeh Arri is still shooting with 2.8 K and blow everything in its environment away
Race for the resolution is getting ridiculous and unbelievable. It is nothing more than a commercial trick. Go and buy it
I would buy 100 G2 than one 12K camera like this and it has no more DR than G2 one stop less so none improvement there


Arri is a good camera manufacturer and the best PR-company in the movie industry by a long shot.


Well, looks like John beat me too it. Think of it as a better G2 camera. John could follow Dimitry's threads and see hiw much extra lattitude he could get at 4k or 2k, to see if 14 stops is the limit or it goes further in latitude and how good in low light compared to an Alexa.

I like the look of this camera's skin tones etc aswell, it reminds me of the credit card hdr camera I had (haven't got that working again yet John).

I like the what I call, mat look of the colours in the alexa, mini and Samsung sensors (dual gain too I think) compared to the gleamy light Sony look. But, the look of the 8k Red used in the Gaurdians of the Galaxy 2 movie, I like, and what's his name from Melbourne's, demo reel if the Red 8k, marvelous. A lot of people would only wish they could do that high level work. Nice fellow. Beautiful light coloured images, certainly out there is terms of look.

Now, Alexa is reliable and has service, but camera wise, they bought that sensor technology from. Cypress, I think at that stage, before they sold it on, and it ended up at cmosis? Cypress had bought multiple different sensor tech I had been interested in. So, I contacted them and asked them about their aims (I was still interested in doing a camera in those days) and suggested they should look at pursuing (approaching) the cinema cameras market, as they had great technology which was leading. After which, the Alexa was born.. I imagine they looked into the advice (being sensible and such forth :) ) as they were a semiconductor company and linked up with Arri. The rest is history. I used to get around behind the scenes. They also had the technology used in that credit card camera but sold that it product line off. I don't know what the finale mix of technology in.the Alexa sensor is, but it is mainly another sensor. The credit card tech one I think does 23 stops now, and is in some phones as an IR sensor, but there were so many sensors to track, and the tech changes companies a lot out there. I was thinking about that sensor a few years ago, but as it's in IR form now, it may not be possible to get one suitable for visual light.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 6:56 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:So Mark. I wrote up an explanation of detail problems of averaging for you, using a simple extreme example of star fields that will not properly average at full resolution due to main values falling in-between pixels of the same colour, producing blinking with movement and colour cast, say green stars etc (which you can solve in that case, by tracking accross frames). But, I lost the post near the end, and dont want to redo the amount of effort.


It really sounds like you're talking about when astral photographers stack pictures taken at different points in time. That's not what I'm talking about.

Nothing to do with that, just a black and bright example on how patterns can miss detail, and even end up averaging to black or green etc, and strobe. Optical path tracking we talk about in advanced noise removal is a way to keep things more realistically even, but now I'm giving away again.

Also what are you referring to when you say "main values"?


I wish I knew, I've just come off of 6 hours of fighting my pho r being nuked by Google photosbI found out, which was errantly trying to chew up free memory and virtual brick my phone, as I was trying to copy photos around (warning). Anybody know an private good alternative to these products. I've helped them a lot in the past, and things see improving, but I keep getting bit in the ... So, I dont know, but imagine I'm talking about the main pixel values rather than derived values. Start with relevant main, use relevantly, then derive values of better precision.

Wayne Steven wrote:This is dozens of things I've contributed to this industry now.


There's no reason for any of us to believe that considering you always claim you thought of great ideas years before anybody else yet there's no information about you anywhere. Cross-referencing your name and compression on your search engine of choice just leads to posts you've made here and I've never seen you post any sort of papers that you wrote on any of these topics.


What do you think? Yeah, I'm actually what Donald Trump dreams of being (that was sarcasm, and not towards cousin Donald Trump). I even post firsts here, even I could figure out what that means (again, real sarcasm, not about myself). As you might gather, I am a truth seeker, and not really happy about those accusing me otherwise. I don't waste countless unpaid hours trying to improve the situation and telling the truth, to have to listen to that. It's about your clearance too (no, not governmental stuff, I keep my own knowledge ) and frankly, rather workoutable from logical deductions on contributions here. If one always refuses truth, one does not find truth.

That's a good line to end on, but when do I not go the extra 9 yards? Mark, I don't, literally, remember you. If you were a good person in the past here it not. But there has been a lot of bad stuff here who I don't trust, and I don't remember more than find of them, and have resorted to using the list, which helps me remember the worse of them, but they are pretty self evident when they start going on about whatever and whoever. Sure, my memories a lot better, but far from superb, so I removed done things now. So, to me you don't look to bad, but I don't know you wherever you can be trusted or not, or what happened in the past, but you seem like you have reasoning, which is one of the single biggest issues with those who object, because error in reasoning inntje easiest way to keep objecting. So, are you somebody I could trust! From past experience, I don't feel like just giving people a high clearance, give it time. One thing I know, is existence, and people at large, tend to be messy, they only think otherwise. Trying to sort out life and make it less messy, is often hindered by people.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 7:11 pm

As the 12k issue has raised it's head again. I thought I would post this:

https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... ect-future
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 9:22 pm

Good article and timely that BMD can offer 12K. The people commenting in the article are all assuming the higher Ks means larger sensors. But they do make the point that the brain sees more than what you might call sharp by measuring line-pair resolution. Although I’m not a scientist, I do believe the brain is very busy as an image processor often filling in whatever might be missing.

And they make the point John Brawley has mentioned about more Ks making the image smoother that enhances the image (more than a sharper view may). So lenses like the SLR Magic APO Hyperprines and perhaps Microprimes will still look good as they are engineered to present a smooth pleasing image.
Rick Lang
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Jul 26, 2020 10:11 pm

Yes like that . The guy from lightiron who joined Panavison, was the one talking about 32k I mentioned. They were saying it was to preserve lens characteristics. I think the anti sharp thing is overblown. A natural sharpness is alright.

I follow the science a bit, and use myself to test out some things. I've been telling people about unconscious perception for years, and still getting a bucketing. I don't think you believed me either at the start Rick, but here we are, some who share, and some who want to make them loose.

I'm very observant of some things and years ago I just sit in the theatre and pick up things. I'm blessed that way. I actually can observe the subconscious workings at a surface level. I wanted to write a book on my discoveries, but found thst a thing called neuroplasticity already existed, and it is even in this spell corector here. If there are people who can suck up a bowl of water through their backside, knock bullets out of the air, be entombed for hundreds of years (incredible story of a couple of monks they find on two separate occasions. I don't really want to believe it myself) or do what I did, of course neuroplasticity and subconscious control have something to do with it.

Sorry, going to sleep.
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Mark Georgeff

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 27, 2020 2:07 am

FULLFRAME SENSOR with access to PRO RES also. I'm lazy that way...pre raw.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 27, 2020 3:19 am

Post Raw :)
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CaptainHook

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 27, 2020 5:46 am

Robert Niessner wrote:Thank you for destroying the mental picture I have had from Hook for the last 6 years.

Its not hard for people to find me if they actually want to.
<-- I have a twitter link under my name to the left which then also links to my instagram and also my facebook link is there
**Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 27, 2020 5:56 am

Hook, let’s not destroy the mystery here... :roll:
Cheers
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SHA Productions
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Steve Golding

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 27, 2020 10:00 am

Captain. We had a good conspiracy going there for a bit!

Steve
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Jul 27, 2020 1:14 pm

rick.lang wrote:Good article and timely that BMD can offer 12K. The people commenting in the article are all assuming the higher Ks means larger sensors. But they do make the point that the brain sees more than what you might call sharp by measuring line-pair resolution. Although I’m not a scientist, I do believe the brain is very busy as an image processor often filling in whatever might be missing.

And they make the point John Brawley has mentioned about more Ks making the image smoother that enhances the image (more than a sharper view may). So lenses like the SLR Magic APO Hyperprines and perhaps Microprimes will still look good as they are engineered to present a smooth pleasing image.


True. Higher K doesn’t automatically mean bigger sensor. But I understand the confusion based on the article. The author of the article tangle sensor size into the equation that a 100mpixel camera will give you a smoother(organic) quality. Meaning a medium format sensor compared to a s35 sensor will make a difference judging from a relative sensor pixel size aspect. So the idea of a smoother image is not only about the K’s but also bigger sensor, if we believe the author.

Now if we compare the Alexa 65 to the 12k s35 ursa. Alexa delivers medium size format (54.12 mm × 25.59 mm) (open gate) but “only” at 6k. The BM s35 12k sensor (27.03mm x 14.25mm) cropped about x2 in comparison. But since it deliver 2x pixels. 12k (12288 x 6480) vs 6k (6560×3102). We can theoretically “blow it up” to the same relative sensor pixel size by simply shoot with another faster and wider focal length lens. In this case outdo the alexa65 sensor ”smoothnes” because of the extra K’s. Not bad for a 10k camera. Still... it seems like the author really want a medium format sensor @14k which is another beast entirely.
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Wayne Steven

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Bigger sensor sites, cameras, and alternative mount standard

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 9:49 am

Well, I wouldn't mind 8k s35 nearly 11k fullframe over 23k 15 perf. Something like that, as I'm not buying the mini, it's not so small. If it was is the production mini at the same price, maybe. Once you go above property prosumer camcorder size, a just gets a bit big to handle all the time with my sicknesses. Even the pocket is too big, especially considering putting decent lenses on it. But, I challenge BM to do a smaller mini cinema camera with fixed lens prosumer camcorder format and video production features, 8k-16k (depending on sensor size) with semi permanent semi fixed 12 or 20x optical zoom, with B4 2/3rds sensor windowed mount adaptor, as the new production mini. Combine three models into one. With my previous design proposal from years back, you have the sensor mount module on the end rotatable to the side to do pocket format. But, if they could do a full frame with replaceable mounts, then they only need three cameras based on size.

So, let's break this down a pocket sized mini 16k, a s35 12k smaller pocket and a smaller 8k micro, all with swappable smaller lens mounts. The swapable lens mounts designed so they can be locked to the lens and attached to the swapable lens mount when needed, the swappable mount system becomes the new mount. They also can the sell several lens mount adaptors for each user at $100-$200AU a pop (if you are poor, you, just use the one that comes with the camera and maybe by another adaptor. If you are doing ok and have 20 lenses you buy 20adaptors). If they do the swappable lens mount as a proper lens mount, as a variable lens mount, as well know enough now about mounts to design a finale mount for decades to come, with proper but simple to design for electronic control lines, and a heap in reserve for what we don't know (when you come to use them, you extend the patent on that aspect). Once manufacturers start making lens to fit the mount adaptor mount instead, acceptance towards becoming an industry standard can take off. You patent and earn licensing off of cheap licensed, and not cheap per hour approval processes, maybe refundable against 50% licensing fees until paid off, so little manufacturers can easily support. Any unlicensed new product you can sieze, and then if law allows, have a spin off that resells them converting the license to an official license. Of course, importers and manufacturers would rather just pay the license rather than letting this happen. You design your standard to be freely ussable after 20 years by contract, but only if it's designed within spec, which you still approve until you give that up, which terminates that right under the standard, no transfers of business entity unless legitimately court forced in the original legal jurisdiction, otherwise it is declared given up.
No transfers of legal jurisdiction unless contastrophy or pemanment national take over of the countty is forced, and verified in court, otherwise right is given up. Under the standard licensing, only you have the right to extend or change the standard (to be sort to be independently enforced by courts on non licensees as part of reasonable behaviour towards a new standard. Seeking a precedent case, based on the principle of reasonableness on respect to practical functional form, of a standard in this case. This is a new legal proposal by me) and any extension lasts for another independent 20 years of licensing. So, approval of new updated extensions and changes, extended licensing for 20 years only of such. Now, physically the new mount would be bigger than IMAX 15 perf, which with allows multi lens 3D systems to easily fit in the mount, like those Panasonic twin lens 3D lenses, which reserved one side of the sensor per lens, so 1/4 per lens in a 4 lens system (and so on fractions per for different lens numbers). But, also smaller versions of the mount to fit on devices too small for that mount. Next step down would be larger than so called stills full frame or Vista, the next down larger than 24mm. Possibly one larger than a 2/3rds sensor. This would cover everything including a nano action pov camera, and as an alternative to B4. A variable fit version of larger version of the mount is possible, but might only be for light lenses. Most mounts should be the second biggest, as it will fit most pro equipment and the smallest, for common pov action drone use. This is the sort of stuff I would come up with in one sitting a lot of times. I'm writing this new and from past experience this time. Also, making law is not like a few good men, it requires balance and adequacy of the law in consideration of justice fairness and practicality etc. I once had a friend who wanted to be a lawyer after watching a few good men, did a big career in a technical sector, but when he had to go to court, he got his nice suit on and purple tie (maybe that was the suit). Another friend had a landmark court case, and the judge took well over a year to produce a ruling the legal fraternity could not believe. It requires much skill, and I wonder if there should be a board of law technical assistants to advise judges when figuring out alternative law (just the alternative ways of doing stuff, not the actual decision. That's the Judge's place).
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 1:05 pm

Im still thinking of a 2k-16k cinema camera in under 9 cubic centermeters myself, as BM hasn't done a nano camera. The technology comes closer and closer all the time to do this better and better (2k is only a beginning). Some people I know had an advanced chip design proposal that really could do this to a high degree at a fraction of the cost and energy of a FPGA, but it would cost millions to order such a design to get implemented. But a lot of that is semi fab development costs. Something which could have been designed on the sensor chip for a lot cheaper than that, because they are already paying for in house fabbing (cheaper) and which is largerly already paid for. Good for them, because it pays for the design to be implemented and their design software, which probably could fit on a scientific calculator, can refit the completed design elements to more advanced normal processing nodes a general purpose processing product (without cinema camera functions). Next to low energy mass magnetic processing, this design company is maybe the best option, as they have been the low energy processing world leaders in the past, and done design work in the US and Australia in the past. So, the complete processing design could be incorporated on chip, meaning the camera design shrinks to a fraction of a mini size, which means the a medium format 32k sensor IMAX 15perf design could go in a mini, maybe smaller pocket. This means a mini can shrink to the size they want (notice the B4 mini is smaller) with space for internal dives and batteries, and the ability to run resolve off the camera, for very low profile remote setups. A satellite /5G/6G setup, allows network people to offload footage to base for work or backup. For people in the jungle or network, it conflict zones this is very important, and such functionality can be bought afterwrds, and physically plugged inside empty space in a case.

I imagine this design with some sections in stack or around the sensor, and the rest around and to the side, allowing that section to be independently cooled, allowing it to run high speed for minimal interference with image quality.

So, imagine the prosumer camcorder sized eng mini like a pocket. You go where ever, use it like eng or like pocket with rotatable sensor module, edit footage on camera with fold out screen, and wirelessly off load by network or mobile, even a direct link to a local base (maybe laser link) in unsuitable places. That is the reality of what is possible. First comer may get the market.

The big weakness points of other manufacturers is too many models in order to mine out the available dollars of the industry (and on an industry with shrinking dollars) which all leaves them vunerable to low cost competitors with fewer models. Some will survive because they are planning next generation technology which you have to buy from them.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Peter Selbie

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 3:43 pm

The camera companies are competing with each other with resolution
Let them make a 1000K camera and we will finally get rid of that nonsense about resolution.
So that they finally focus more on what really matters.....
Camera : BMCC / BMPCC / BMPCC 4K
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Adam Langdon

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 4:18 pm

is there any more footage from others users yet?
Ursa Mini Pro G2 - Vintage Russian Glass - SLR Magic APO Microprimes - Tamron 24-70mm f2.8
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Que Thompson

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 4:23 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:When I was much younger than than today, I came to the realisation that I could compress very high resolutions into one byte, even 1 bit infinite resolution.


Wayne... My man... :) You're missing out on A LOT of money my friend.

Compression is needed in every aspect of computing. If you have an algorithm that can compress very high resolutions in to one byte... event 1 bit infinite resolution... you may want to patent it.

Think about video streaming... Online gaming... YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, etc. would pay BILLIONS.

Put it together and cut me in.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 5:10 pm

Thanks Que, but it was an example of a trick that's nearly worthless in itself, but a most important aspect of compression. You will get not far in thinking of compressing things, but a long way in realising it is about representing things. It liberates your design view to do more.

My aims for 1000:1 something lossless compression is based on many nuanced layers of technique from the mid 1980's onwards. But even Grant couldn't afford the patenting. Patenting should be free, then progress will progress many times faster. I could submit based on previous designs all year long. Give me a trillion and stand back. Low rent people take control of things to milk it like a slum lord, and throttle progress.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 5:23 pm

Peter Selbie wrote:The camera companies are competing with each other with resolution
Let them make a 1000K camera and we will finally get rid of that nonsense about resolution.
So that they finally focus more on what really matters.....


That's around a 20mm or so sensor. The ultrasmall pixels are very exciting. I'm trying to work out how to give them 40 stop latitude. They would be very handy for holographic filming.

Frankly, it's possible to make pixels down to under a nanometre. All pixels are, are sensors, an atom could do the job if designed correctly (don't ask me how on that one, but there are some things out there getting smaller). I'm going say it, and it might be totally not going work, but atom thick hairs out of the surface to sense light.

Drop microphone, and run out of the room, before somebody who actually knows what he's talking about in atomic meta materials says it will not work.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Uli Plank

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 7:25 pm

After being back to my humble Mac mini with an eGPU (AMD 580) I'm pretty impressed. It can handle the 12K originals in a DCI 4K timeline with some stuttering. A HD timeline plays smoothly. Wow!
Last edited by Uli Plank on Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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