Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 10:34 pm

When they hacked into Braw after it's release, they said they found evidence of downscales, which would make it easier to edit. I personally regard it's more compressed modes, like I regard prosumer camera codec. While wonderful, there are still a price like in most lossy compression. Except in this codec, doesn't just give you an impression of accuracy like with other codecs, it also gives an impression of speed. Just think of all those people who are going miss out configuring their $30k-$60k Apple Mac computer to do post. :)
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Jul 30, 2020 3:20 am

Wayne Steven wrote:... Just think of all those people who are going miss out configuring their $30k-$60k Apple Mac computer to do post. :)


Thank goodness I didn’t waste that much although it can be fun rendering at about 240 fps.
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Nicolas from Autokroma

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 31, 2020 10:10 am

With the BRAW API, before the 2.0 version (adding support for the new 12K footages), you could get from your BRAW 4 resolutions : 1/1, 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8. It is important because if you choose 1/3 or 1/16 resolution for playback for example, it is not optimised (If 1/3 : 1/2 will be rendered and then the software (Resolve/PPro) will downscale it : so it takes more time than if 1/3 was directly generated from the BRAW API).

On the new 12K footages, these resolutions are 1/1, 2/3, 1/3, 1/6. So the minimum resolution you can get from the BRAW API on a 12K footage is 2048x1080 . So the same as if you were with a 4K footage and 1/2 Resolution.

We hope to get new resolutions choice from the BMD API, especially for those new BRAW 12K footages, to improve playback performances.

I tested in Premiere Pro OSX with :

Tested in Premiere Pro OSX (with the official Blackmagic RAW 2.0 Beta1, but also ), 12K takes time to render (like at least one second for one frame in Full Res, rendered on CPU only with my macbook from 2012 so not a good workstation but that was just for a test), so decreasing the resolution playback is needed if you are not using proxies, and 1/6 is not enough IMHO !
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 31, 2020 2:31 pm

Hate to be that person but when will we see more footage from the 12k?
I’m about to preorder and I’ve been really hoping to see low-light and HDR environments.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 31, 2020 2:35 pm

Have you seen the other three clips from final hardware in a dark but lit studio Scenario on BMDs website ?

Everyone seems to miss them and not realise they’re there as part of the BRAW tab from the camera page.

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 31, 2020 2:48 pm

I have, and it’s really nice.
I’m just looking for something more non-setup I guess?

And just more stuff to play around with. Anamorphic, handheld, etc
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 31, 2020 9:12 pm

Nicolas from Autokroma wrote:With the BRAW API, before the 2.0 version (adding support for the new 12K footages), you could get from your BRAW 4 resolutions : 1/1, 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8. It is important because if you choose 1/3 or 1/16 resolution for playback for example, it is not optimised (If 1/3 : 1/2 will be rendered and then the software (Resolve/PPro) will downscale it : so it takes more time than if 1/3 was directly generated from the BRAW API).

On the new 12K footages, these resolutions are 1/1, 2/3, 1/3, 1/6. So the minimum resolution you can get from the BRAW API on a 12K footage is 2048x1080 . So the same as if you were with a 4K footage and 1/2 Resolution.

We hope to get new resolutions choice from the BMD API, especially for those new BRAW 12K footages, to improve playback performances.

I tested in Premiere Pro OSX with :

Tested in Premiere Pro OSX (with the official Blackmagic RAW 2.0 Beta1, but also ), 12K takes time to render (like at least one second for one frame in Full Res, rendered on CPU only with my macbook from 2012 so not a good workstation but that was just for a test), so decreasing the resolution playback is needed if you are not using proxies, and 1/6 is not enough IMHO !



Yes, that is what I was asking about. You really are rendering a 2k mpeg or something image (actually this sounds like something I wrote years ago. Pretty irrelevant anyway, as that is how wavelet codecs worked anyway) quickly on those laptops, like a proxy, not a 12k image. So, what is the real 12k recode time of changes. Are we going to be waiting at least 60 hours an hour of footage, to do a final version on some old laptop. How fast on a good laptop?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Jul 31, 2020 9:20 pm

Did you read my entry about speed on a Mac mini with an eGPU?
If you can tell me precisely what you'd like to have rendered, like which of the demo clips, which effect at which resolution for output, I can test it.

BTW, the backlit shot of the 'angry young man' is showing chroma noise and minimal FPN only if I increase contrast in the dark parts to insane levels. Remember, it's a beta camera…
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 1:28 am

Thanks Uli

As a speed test, it's 12k, to see how slow outputting to a finale file is, graded however, it's mainly testing codec performance, so aslong as it thinks it has to recompress everything. We could probably extrapolate from the mini gpu's performance from there. I suspect it will be 10x+ faster than the laptop CPU. But is it possible to save to Braw yet?

I wonder if these systems do while you are still working behind the scenes frame processing yet, which would skew results too.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 6:00 am

You can't save to BRAW, other than trimming. And you'd need to be more specific about grading, since that could be very simple, like one node, or very complex, like several nodes plus NR and more. The codec to save into doesn't need to slow things down significantly, one could save into ProRes instead of H.265.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 9:32 am

Will it even be possible to render at 12K considering the GPU memory requirements? I suppose an integrated CPU/GPU would work since it can always use system memory (with a significant performance impact), but with a dedicated GPU we're already struggling at 4K sometimes. Throw some speed warp and noise reduction on there and watch it burn. :D

I know 12K won't usually be the delivery format. But what if you need to render out something at full resolution temporarily for VFX?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 9:41 am

There are 48GB vram GPUs available and we have many projects rendered above 12k. Amusement rides for example, also in stereo3D.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 10:05 am

When, where could we see those?

Peter Chamberlain wrote:There are 48GB vram GPUs available and we have many projects rendered above 12k. Amusement rides for example, also in stereo3D.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 2:19 pm

Kim Janson wrote:When, where could we see those?

Peter Chamberlain wrote:There are 48GB vram GPUs available and we have many projects rendered above 12k. Amusement rides for example, also in stereo3D.


It would be theme parks. So Disney and the like.


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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 3:54 pm

All time best post, John! Kim walked into that one. :D
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 4:36 pm

This guy has done an in-depth analysis of the ursa 12k and whyiencea need to have camera. He also talks about the color science. some of it goes beyond me. But very ineteresting

http://filmscientist.com/mblog/2020/07/ ... necessary/

link Corrected thanks to john Brawley

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Last edited by ricardo marty on Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 4:53 pm

That link is dead.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 5:01 pm

Just truncate the link after "mblog", you'll get there.

This guy won't win any awards for coloring grading. As always, the 'product' is only as good as the weakest link, the camera can get lost in it.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 5:52 pm

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 6:18 pm

Another observation, for those without a Mac: my Mac mini with an RX 580 eGPU with (humble, at todays standards) 8 GB is handling the 12K demo clips even in a 8K DCI timeline. It does not crash. No GPU memory full message!
I can use temporal NR without crashing. I can use Aperture Diffraction, another demanding effect, without crashing. Of course, it's crawling at snail speed, but it's stable. It stalls with both added, but no crash.

I'm nothing less than impressed.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 02, 2020 12:48 am

Kim Janson wrote:When, where could we see those?

Peter Chamberlain wrote:There are 48GB vram GPUs available and we have many projects rendered above 12k. Amusement rides for example, also in stereo3D.



Yes, when can we see the 16k-32k fullframe+ cameras Peter? :D
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 02, 2020 1:14 am

Uli, it would be a simple test of raw performance.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 02, 2020 2:47 am

It's 12,288/6 not 12,288/3.

dur.jpg
dur.jpg (74.02 KiB) Viewed 2021 times


This is asswards as well.

bmrgbw.jpg
bmrgbw.jpg (37.19 KiB) Viewed 2021 times


Science.

Good Luck
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 11:58 am

Some rendering on above mentioned hardware:

4K DCI timeline, four nodes, one with temporal NR.
Rendered into 4K DCI ProRes 422 HQ, scaling and debayering (we'll need a new expression here) forced to max.

8K R3D source needs 0.6 sec/frame. 12K BRAW needs 0.3 sec/frame. Nuff said.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 2:52 pm

Uli Plank wrote:debayering (we'll need a new expression here)


-> demosaicing is the correct expression I learned from Hook.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 2:55 pm

well, i bit the bullet and preordered!
Super excited about this camera. hopefully it will arrive this month! (wishful thinking? haha)

I plan on moving to PL mount lenses with the SLR Magic APO Hyperprimes. They look great and i'm excited to try them out.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 7:57 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:Will it even be possible to render at 12K considering the GPU memory requirements? I suppose an integrated CPU/GPU would work since it can always use system memory (with a significant performance impact), but with a dedicated GPU we're already struggling at 4K sometimes. Throw some speed warp and noise reduction on there and watch it burn. :D

I know 12K won't usually be the delivery format. But what if you need to render out something at full resolution temporarily for VFX?


With AMD Metal or OpenCL (and maybe even with a NVidia card running OpenCL, haven't tested it) it's no problem. CUDA is fast but also very memory hungry.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 8:50 pm

Adam, very excited for you! Nice to know my APO primes will get a workout on that camera. Really looking forward to your findings. Having some test results with people in addition to everything else will be sweet eye candy.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 10:13 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Some rendering on above mentioned hardware:

4K DCI timeline, four nodes, one with temporal NR.
Rendered into 4K DCI ProRes 422 HQ, scaling and debayering (we'll need a new expression here) forced to max.

8K R3D source needs 0.6 sec/frame. 12K BRAW needs 0.3 sec/frame. Nuff said.


As I suspected. Thanks Uli. Still need a reasonable system.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 10:37 pm

I was going to update a thread I started with a link about what it was talking about. But somebody removed it for no reason.

But here is a link you guys might enjoy:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=119014
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Aug 07, 2020 11:48 pm

Excited to see some 12K Ursa footage/trailer on YT BMD channel.. even though it was streamed full HD only.. I instantly was drawn to the capturing of motion, which looked very clear and clean.. fantastic..

but now seeing these readout times. I wonder how much of the 12k "trailer" used any actual Full 12k recorded footage?


Full 12K : ~15.5ms
12K 2.4:1 : ~12.3ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
8K 2.4:1 (full width) : ~6.7ms*
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


Camera would still be interesting as a 12k sensor outputting to 4k/8k with clean and clear motion.. but I always feel a bit jilted getting stills that are taken from a 12k sample.. and then seeing a trailer of a 12k camera not actually showing footage recorded in Full 12k.
Last edited by 1782NOrangeDrive on Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 4:17 am

Blackmagic RAW 2.0 Public Beta 2 is now live on the website with Resolve 16.3 Public Beta 2 and adds support for Windows

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 4:27 am

CaptainHook wrote:Blackmagic RAW 2.0 Public Beta 2 is now live on the website with Resolve 16.3 Public Beta 2 and adds support for Windows

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/

Nice!
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 8:31 am

CaptainHook wrote:Blackmagic RAW 2.0 Public Beta 2 is now live on the website with Resolve 16.3 Public Beta 2 and adds support for Windows

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/

Is that our 2020 resolve?
No resolve 17?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 12:00 pm

Come on, not bad for the Covid-19 year.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 12:36 pm

Since DR 16.3 is out, I think Somone will get URSA 12K please share High ISO thank you.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 4:54 pm

can anyone validate this as authentic Ursa Mini 12k footage?

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 6:22 pm

visalapol wrote:Since DR 16.3 is out, I think Somone will get URSA 12K please share High ISO thank you.

80MP with crop sensor low light performance will be bad.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 6:24 pm

That is pretty cool. Like halfway between an Arri and an Red hydrogen in look. Notice the shine on the girls face?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 6:37 pm

Yogendra Singh wrote:80MP with crop sensor low light performance will be bad.


You’re using traditional bayer logic to draw a conclusion.

This is not a bayer sensor.

The low light performance is similar to a G2. So 1600 and 3200 are feasible. With the extra resolution, NR can also be more aggressive so you may be able to go further.

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 6:38 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:That is pretty cool. Like halfway between an Arri and an Red hydrogen in look. Notice the shine on the girls face?

That shine, is that good for a camera?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 6:39 pm

John Brawley wrote:This is not a bayer sensor.


Best statement in this thread.

Warning: Your preconceived notions may not be correct.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 6:59 pm

CaptainHook wrote:Blackmagic RAW 2.0 Public Beta 2 is now live on the website with Resolve 16.3 Public Beta 2 and adds support for Windows

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/


but can't also not playing the 12k braw files on a cMP : -(
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB 860pro/4x4TB HGST/SSD7101A 4x2TB 970evoplus/HP1344/BMD4k/Radeon VII
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB 860pro/wingsX1 2TB 970evoplus/titanridgeTB3/HP1344/Radeon VII
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/TB3/vega64
Pocket4k speedbooster ultra
OS 10.14.6
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Yogendra Singh

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 10, 2020 8:50 pm

John Brawley wrote:
You’re using traditional bayer logic to draw a conclusion.

This is not a bayer sensor.

The low light performance is similar to a G2. So 1600 and 3200 are feasible. With the extra resolution, NR can also be more aggressive so you may be able to go further.

JB

Thats a good news.

Warning: Your preconceived notions may not be correct.

yea, surprisingly
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Aug 11, 2020 5:21 am

Yogendra Singh wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:That is pretty cool. Like halfway between an Arri and an Red hydrogen in look. Notice the shine on the girls face?

That shine, is that good for a camera?


Nope! But it turns up here in camera samples. It's likely what she's is wearing, or not wearing. Hence the need for 3 more stops, to make it look more similar to what we see, and more if you want to push it around and have a similar look to how we see. 16 stop should be minimum now. I was surprised G2 didn't get there. By what this camera does, a 4.6k should.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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emhoward

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 3:15 am

Just downloaded the newest version of Resolve which includes Gen 5 color for windows, however I don't see the Gen 5 extended LUT in resolve or in CST. Am I missing something
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CaptainHook

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 3:56 am

There is no LUT or CST support yet, Gen 5 is only through the Blackmagic RAW panel.
Blackmagic RAW 2.0 and Gen 5 are still in beta so you won't see LUTs or CST/RCM support until the GM.
**Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**
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Yogendra Singh

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 4:30 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
Nope! But it turns up here in camera samples. It's likely what she's is wearing, or not wearing. Hence the need for 3 more stops, to make it look more similar to what we see, and more if you want to push it around and have a similar look to how we see. 16 stop should be minimum now. I was surprised G2 didn't get there. By what this camera does, a 4.6k should.

These highlight spots are what made Nikon to lose their market share to canon. surprisingly canon cameras with only 12 stops of DR have minimal highlight spots. even with 72 dpi pics.
I am sure BM cameras have better highlight roll-off.
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Resolve Studio 16.3
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emhoward

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 1:54 pm

CaptainHook wrote:There is no LUT or CST support yet, Gen 5 is only through the Blackmagic RAW panel.
Blackmagic RAW 2.0 and Gen 5 are still in beta so you won't see LUTs or CST/RCM support until the GM.


Thanks!
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Dan Cotreau

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 9:40 pm

Hey everyone!

Long time lurker, first time posting.

I am admittedly still using and liking my Original BMCC 2.5k, but the new Ursa Mini 12K is very intriguing.

The footage from the new Ursa Mini 12K just looks very good. I am having a difficult time even defining it. I think it's the color, the rolloff and just something non-harsh that I often attribute to a lot of digital footage. Despite the resolution, for lack of a better way to say it, there is a flattering smoothness to it. I can only chalk this up to Blackmagic's new sensor design. I know a few people like John Brawley on his wordpress page have delved into this non bayer sensor a bit. I suppose I am trying to wrap my mind around this "new tech". I'm not sure it will even be fair to measure it using the previous standards or parameters.

As others get their hands on the camera, I would love to see more footage and hear their experiences with what they are discovering in post, as far as dynamic range, color, rolloff, etc. I also look forward to seeing how different lenses play with the new 12K. For instance the new Laowa OOOM 25-100mm Cine lens https://laowacine.com would be interesting to see. At just $5,000 for a Cine zoom, it seems like it might be a nice budget paring for the Ursa Mini. Or the new cine zoom lenses from DZOFilm look interesting as well. If anyone is able to get their hands on any of these new budget lenses, please share your results. I look forward to seeing and hearing about everyone's experiences.
Last edited by Dan Cotreau on Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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