What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

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thomas bruegger

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 2:43 pm

Im waiting for BM to bring that FF Sensor and a locking Lensmount with all that G2 goodness like ND Filters and XLR inputs and the lovely BM-Menu. The UMP is such a great Camera to work with. I wish they go FF with 6K or 8K. and a S35 cropped mode.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 2:56 pm

robedge wrote:Re the thread title "What Camera Do You Want To Buy From BM Next?"

I'm only interested in whatever the successor is to the Pocket 4K. At that point, I'll evaluate options having regard to build quality, ergonomics, codecs, features and price. My decision to purchase a Pocket 4K was based entirely on price, and if I purchase the Pocket 4K's successor it will be because it's cheaper than alternatives.


The pocket 6k?

I suspect that the recent discount on the 6k, is a prelude to the 4k being dropped and the 6k dropping down it's price range, as a new higher end pocket comes out. The micro might then come in under that. We wait and see.
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robert Hart

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 4:22 pm

Wayne Steven.


Alas the two "big" URSAs are serials which have already been "traded-in" during the original act-of-grace-discount period when the 4.6K turret upgrade fell through. I doubt BM's business model can affordably contemplate a discount deal to wean luddites like me off old gear.

The idea of a fliphone-style construction may not be as far-fetched as it might seem. Stills cameras went fairly close right from the word go as the first glass plate cameras were huge. So there came the concertina bellows and rails.

Then the small medium-format camera makers introduced folding cameras. Along came the 35mm stills format and the fold-up notion went away. The build precision of the earlier larger-format types did not have to be extra special so long as the shutter and optics in the front were.

35mm cams had to be very precisely built and a fold-up style in that scale would not remain affordably accurate in dimensions for long in real-world hard work.


Slightly offtopic. Given you are into R and D, would you happen to know anything about the small LEDs in the Sound Devices SD302 audio mixer. I have been repairing a used one which developed faults due I am guessing to splash entry of seawater wicking inside through narrow gaps. There were corrosion patches and crystalline deposits inside,

It seems from signs there may have been a conductive track from the power input switch to the LED strings of the levels display. A block of about 8 LEDs has been demised in the centres of the L and R channel displays, my guess from overvoltage directly from the power input. Their failure likely protected the others which survive and still function.

I am trying to source replacement LEDs. They are a style which is called rectangular and measure 1.9mmx 3.9mm at their display face which is designed to poke through a fascia to be level with the front surface. They are very bright, capable of being seen in direct sunlight.

The only source of anything which looks like them is branded Kingbright. The only offerings in the same form factor I can find are those with a matte finish to the display surface, not clear transparent like those which have failed.

The original bright clear ones may have become unsellable with the advent of comprehensive small LCD displays in later generations of audio equipment.

Sound Devices are unable to assist. They have a repair facility but do not stock discreet parts for distribution. To ship the mixer to the US and back plus repair cost just to restore it cosmetically can not be justified.

I am impressed with the build quality. What undoubtedly saved the appliance was that everything on the two main PCBs is encapsulated in flexible clear silicone. The LED strings sit on their own little PCB which was not quite so well protected. It is well within my own capability to remove and refit the LEDs if only i can get hold of replacements.

I would have private messaged you but I cannot find a messaging function on BM's forum.

Any advice from other readers will be of course very welcome.
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robedge

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 4:36 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:
robedge wrote:Re the thread title "What Camera Do You Want To Buy From BM Next?"

I'm only interested in whatever the successor is to the Pocket 4K. At that point, I'll evaluate options having regard to build quality, ergonomics, codecs, features and price. My decision to purchase a Pocket 4K was based entirely on price, and if I purchase the Pocket 4K's successor it will be because it's cheaper than alternatives.


The pocket 6k?

I suspect that the recent discount on the 6k, is a prelude to the 4k being dropped and the 6k dropping down it's price range, as a new higher end pocket comes out. The micro might then come in under that. We wait and see.



If Blackmagic drops the Pocket 4K, I will probably sell mine while I can still get a decent dollar for it and move to a different brand.
Image: Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica M primes, Pocket 4K

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 5:04 pm

Understand, but if the BMPCC8K replaces the BMPCC4K as I suspect, you’ll be able to use the full 8K sensor with downscaling in-camera for 4K media. That’s how I’d use it most times to keep file sizes for video manageable and improve the rendition of colour and fine detail. My guess is that will look very good given decent lenses.

My only hesitation would be that I’d not have the dual ISO sensor that lets me shoot in ISO 3200 with a good-looking image. I’d shoot with my BMPCC4K when I really need that higher ISO range. And when I need the extra stop of dynamic range, I’d use the BMPCC8K.
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robedge

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 6:24 pm

rick.lang wrote:Understand, but if the BMPCC8K replaces the BMPCC4K as I suspect, you’ll be able to use the full 8K sensor with downscaling in-camera for 4K media. That’s how I’d use it most times to keep file sizes for video manageable and improve the rendition of colour and fine detail. My guess is that will look very good given decent lenses.

My only hesitation would be that I’d not have the dual ISO sensor that lets me shoot in ISO 3200 with a good-looking image. I’d shoot with my BMPCC4K when I really need that higher ISO range. And when I need the extra stop of dynamic range, I’d use the BMPCC8K.
.

I'm not going to sell a Pocket 4K at a loss to buy a Pocket 8K, presumably for more money. Also, for me lenses come first and camera second, which means that there's an issue if the successor camera has a different mount. I'm not going to sell a US$3800 (regular price) Fujinon lens that I'm happy with at a loss, and purchase a new lens, in order to get a camera with a different lens mount, unless there's a very good reason. That's one of the reasons that I have no interest in the Pocket 6K. At that point, I'm much more likely to sell my pocket 4K, convert the lens to L-mount (£200) and purchase an L-mount camera.

For me, the attraction of the Pocket 4K was price. There's a point where it, or rather its successor, loses that advantage, and it isn't just about the price of the camera body.
Image: Fujinon MK 18-55mm, Leica M primes, Pocket 4K

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 7:29 pm

That’s a good plan. I’m assuming the future BMPCC8K will have a mFT mount given the sensor will be about the same dimensions as the current sensor in the BMPCC4K if it uses those 2.2 micron photosites.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 8:40 pm

bmpcc6k wrote:... with RF Mount


99% sure this will never ever happen.

I would love to have BMD expend on their own eco system. The EVF for example is one of the best around for any money, including the ones I've just been using from Panavision and Arri but it's totally crippled by the stupid camera specific ID of the physical design of it. It's impossible to use with an EPL as an extension Virwfinder for example. The cables are such that if you get a failure, then the whole thing becomes useless unless you want to try and repair it yourself.

I wish they would adopt a protocol for external control so any first ac with a Preston, C-motion or WCU could roll the damn camera remotely. Many of those handsets can also change ISO, compression settings and frame rates and ND filters on other cameras too.

I wish they would have a more specific look around in the EVF.

I wish you could have the option to customise what's on the overlay. I never record sound but I'm forced to look at the meaningless VU's recording silence when I want to have a histogram on screen.

I wish the camera had better fastening points that were 3/4" instead of 1/4" ones that are easily ripped out by an over eager grip.

I wish they'd update the micro into a 4K camera. Even the current version is unique and un-paralleled for what it can do for the size. Make a great cube camera but keep it to that size, MFT mount still smaller than damn Komodo / Zcam / Kinefinity et all...

135 / FF is a bit of a waste to me. It's such a "fashion" format at the moment. It forces a whole new lens eco-system, and the customer base of BMD aren't really the ones that will pony up for "real" cinema lenses, so having a 16K Sensor (hey that's what the 12K sensor is when it's in 135 format) seems a bit at odds with a nifty fifty from eBay....

Much better to just go straight to real large format...a camera 65/ 70mm type size...At the moment only Alexa 65 is doing that size...

JB
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 8:54 pm

John Brawley wrote:I would love to have BMD expend on their own eco system. The EVF for example is one of the best around for any money, including the ones I've just been using from Panavision and Arri but it's totally crippled by the stupid camera specific ID of the physical design of it. It's impossible to use with an EPL as an extension Virwfinder for example. The cables are such that if you get a failure, then the whole thing becomes useless unless you want to try and repair it yourself.


I have a feeling that BMD's EVF would be a very hot seller if BMD redesigned it to be more widely compatible. I checked it out the same day that I checked out the Zacuto version that cost twice as much, and honestly couldn't see a significant difference in the image itself.

I wish you could have the option to customise what's on the overlay. I never record sound but I'm forced to look at the meaningless VU's recording silence when I want to have a histogram on screen.


Custom overlays would be rather nice.

I wish they'd update the micro into a 4K camera. Even the current version is unique and un-paralleled for what it can do for the size. Make a great cube camera but keep it to that size, MFT mount still smaller than damn Komodo / Zcam / Kinefinity et all...


IMO brilliant would be to adapt the new 12K sensor design into such a camera. It doesn't need to be 12K, just take advantage of the new design for its other benefits. Those tinycams are nice.

135 / FF is a bit of a waste to me. It's such a "fashion" format at the moment. It forces a whole new lens eco-system, and the customer base of BMD aren't really the ones that will pony up for "real" cinema lenses, so having a 16K Sensor (hey that's what the 12K sensor is when it's in 135 format) seems a bit at odds with a nifty fifty from eBay....


But it's moar k's!

Meh. The people who complain the most about not having a 135 sensor almost invariably seem to be the least able to take advantage of even a Pocket 4K.

Much better to just go straight to real large format...a camera 65/ 70mm type size...At the moment only Alexa 65 is doing that size...


I miss shooting medium format. But a true large format cinema camera would be pretty amazing. A tad unwieldy, and lenses for 4x5 and bigger are kind of pricey. :)
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lee4ever

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 9:16 pm

Next camera I will buy from BM will be the one with dual gain sensor. If BM doesn't develop such a camera anymore, then it will probably be another camera manufacturer.
At the moment I am satisfied with the original pocket.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 10:01 pm

John Brawley wrote:
bmpcc6k wrote:... with RF Mount


99% sure this will never ever happen.

I would love to have BMD expend on their own eco system. The EVF for example is one of the best around for any money, including the ones I've just been using from Panavision and Arri but it's totally crippled by the stupid camera specific ID of the physical design of it. It's impossible to use with an EPL as an extension Virwfinder for example. The cables are such that if you get a failure, then the whole thing becomes useless unless you want to try and repair it yourself.

I wish they would adopt a protocol for external control so any first ac with a Preston, C-motion or WCU could roll the damn camera remotely. Many of those handsets can also change ISO, compression settings and frame rates and ND filters on other cameras too.

I wish they would have a more specific look around in the EVF.

I wish you could have the option to customise what's on the overlay. I never record sound but I'm forced to look at the meaningless VU's recording silence when I want to have a histogram on screen.

I wish the camera had better fastening points that were 3/4" instead of 1/4" ones that are easily ripped out by an over eager grip.

I wish they'd update the micro into a 4K camera. Even the current version is unique and un-paralleled for what it can do for the size. Make a great cube camera but keep it to that size, MFT mount still smaller than damn Komodo / Zcam / Kinefinity et all...

135 / FF is a bit of a waste to me. It's such a "fashion" format at the moment. It forces a whole new lens eco-system, and the customer base of BMD aren't really the ones that will pony up for "real" cinema lenses, so having a 16K Sensor (hey that's what the 12K sensor is when it's in 135 format) seems a bit at odds with a nifty fifty from eBay....

Much better to just go straight to real large format...a camera 65/ 70mm type size...At the moment only Alexa 65 is doing that size...

JB

I totally agree about an updated design for the EVF. It's now a 5-year old design and tech. So it would be worth it for an update to happen next year using a lot of the suggestions you have here.

And, I'm all for the external control protocol. That's why I'd love for them to develop their own FIZ unit that works with the wireless video assist I mentioned above. And, I'm all for the more custom overlays you mention.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 10:46 pm

robert Hart wrote:Wayne Steven.


Alas the two "big" URSAs are serials which have already been "traded-in" during the original act-of-grace-discount period when the 4.6K turret upgrade fell through. I doubt BM's business model can affordably contemplate a discount deal to wean luddites like me off old gear.

The idea of a fliphone-style construction may not be as far-fetched as it might seem. Stills cameras went fairly close right from the word go as the first glass plate cameras were huge. So there came the concertina bellows and rails.

Then the small medium-format camera makers introduced folding cameras. Along came the 35mm stills format and the fold-up notion went away. The build precision of the earlier larger-format types did not have to be extra special so long as the shutter and optics in the front were.

35mm cams had to be very precisely built and a fold-up style in that scale would not remain affordably accurate in dimensions for long in real-world hard work.


Slightly offtopic. Given you are into R and D, would you happen to know anything about the small LEDs in the Sound Devices SD302 audio mixer. I have been repairing a used one which developed faults due I am guessing to splash entry of seawater wicking inside through narrow gaps. There were corrosion patches and crystalline deposits inside,

It seems from signs there may have been a conductive track from the power input switch to the LED strings of the levels display. A block of about 8 LEDs has been demised in the centres of the L and R channel displays, my guess from overvoltage directly from the power input. Their failure likely protected the others which survive and still function.

I am trying to source replacement LEDs. They are a style which is called rectangular and measure 1.9mmx 3.9mm at their display face which is designed to poke through a fascia to be level with the front surface. They are very bright, capable of being seen in direct sunlight.

The only source of anything which looks like them is branded Kingbright. The only offerings in the same form factor I can find are those with a matte finish to the display surface, not clear transparent like those which have failed.

The original bright clear ones may have become unsellable with the advent of comprehensive small LCD displays in later generations of audio equipment.

Sound Devices are unable to assist. They have a repair facility but do not stock discreet parts for distribution. To ship the mixer to the US and back plus repair cost just to restore it cosmetically can not be justified.

I am impressed with the build quality. What undoubtedly saved the appliance was that everything on the two main PCBs is encapsulated in flexible clear silicone. The LED strings sit on their own little PCB which was not quite so well protected. It is well within my own capability to remove and refit the LEDs if only i can get hold of replacements.

I would have private messaged you but I cannot find a messaging function on BM's forum.

Any advice from other readers will be of course very welcome.


I can not, you probably are already on the parts supplier websites, and there probably is no serial number on them. But get the actual revision number of the device and board, and ask sound devices if they could tell you the model and specs of the dead leds, which you might be able to cross-match from that. That's about all to be done. I'm guessing it's not nee but the original manufacturer might have a compatable part. You mentioned it has a square window. If all else fails, a round led could be clipped to have the original square optic to sit in front of it using an optically clear glue to fill in the roughness of the fine cut of the original square optic. But you really are asking the wrong man. Design and repair are two different things, unless you are in a maker community etc.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostThu Nov 05, 2020 10:58 pm

rick.lang wrote:That’s a good plan. I’m assuming the future BMPCC8K will have a mFT mount given the sensor will be about the same dimensions as the current sensor in the BMPCC4K if it uses those 2.2 micron photosites.


That's right. Even if it was bigger, you can mount the lens through an straight non optical adaptor and get that 8k window inside the imaging circle.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostFri Nov 06, 2020 6:49 am

Comparing these 4 cameras, they all have their strengths

4cameras.jpg
4cameras.jpg (861.83 KiB) Viewed 1118 times


Canon EOS R is small and very well build camera with RF mount, EVF, good focusing, big sensor, and its predecessor are even better.It has also ok battery life, and great for still photos. Menus can be navigated without touch screen. I really hope BMD would do this.

Compared to EOS R the P6k body is pretty toy like, but it has well tough of menu, works with ATEM mini, has good video codecs, false colours, LUTs etc helpful tools, external storage. it is a cinema camera with strange form factor. No EVF and fixed screen

Micro Cinema, Great form factor, I love the possibilities it provides, to build it exactly as I like.

Screenshot 2020-11-06 at 9.00.03.jpg
Screenshot 2020-11-06 at 9.00.03.jpg (760.99 KiB) Viewed 1110 times


And the 4th one, the iPhone the picture was taken with. It has great processing power, fast direct connection to internet, super easy to use, video can be "edited" on the "camera" new models have 3D scanner, great for artificial bohek and focusing in dim conditions etc. It is all about getting the best out of the limited sensor and lens, often many of them combined. There is much to learn here for the traditional camera manufactures, would be mistake to overlook this technology.
Last edited by Kim Janson on Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostFri Nov 06, 2020 7:01 am

Here's some interesting lens technology. A small camera using this:

https://m.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_showcases ... -46143.php
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostFri Nov 06, 2020 7:08 am

I can't like directly to the Weibo or GSM video here:

https://video.h5.weibo.cn/1034:45679142 ... 5997174930

You only need something very simple to film a feature. :)
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostFri Nov 06, 2020 8:01 am

BMD has great portfolio, great cameras, broadcast solutions, editing and after effects, control tables.. so they have it all.

No.

They have integrated the video codecs and related workflow very well. But as I see what is missing, that is the lens control and correction and camera motion.

Over 10 years ago already DxO did great job on lens correction for still photography. It would be great to have that for video, if not directly on camera as the phones and some cameras do it, then on the editing SW.

There is much that could be done integrating focus and zoom control, using in camera and lens features and external devices.

It really bugs me why they are not already using the in camera IMU for motion tracking assistance and image stabilisation assistance. In addition it would be great to have external interface on the camera as related.

So though I hope the next camera will be Micro Cinema and Studio camera combined with some new features, what I am really looking for is it all coming together and BMD shining on their full potential.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostFri Nov 06, 2020 1:20 pm

Still trying to get there.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostFri Nov 06, 2020 2:30 pm

John Brawley wrote:
bmpcc6k wrote:... with RF Mount


99% sure this will never ever happen.

JB


I still have a hope, look at the Komodo, why Jarred Land decided to use RF Mount instead of interchangeable or fixed EF or PL Mount or E Mount? Because in his predictions in the future RF Lenses will be used more often than the EF lenses, because of their sharpness, technology, color tones and etc...
Besides that sooner or later Sigma will start making RF Mounts wilt a bit cheap price and a lot of EF lens users will start switching or updating their lenses and cameras into RF mount eco-system.
That's how i think.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostFri Nov 06, 2020 2:56 pm

bmpcc6k wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
bmpcc6k wrote:... with RF Mount


99% sure this will never ever happen.

JB


I still have a hope, look at the Komodo, why Jarred Land decided to use RF Mount instead of interchangeable or fixed EF or PL Mount or E Mount? Because in his predictions in the future RF Lenses will be used more often than the EF lenses, because of their sharpness, technology, color tones and etc...
Besides that sooner or later Sigma will start making RF Mounts wilt a bit cheap price and a lot of EF lens users will start switching or updating their lenses and cameras into RF mount eco-system.
That's how i think.


Likely this is because of an IP swap between Canon and RED for on board RAW recording.

JB
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostSat Nov 07, 2020 5:30 am

Nothing to do with in the short term, the Komodo won't be so competitive with the higher end models because it doesn't have a standard mount?
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostSat Nov 07, 2020 9:03 am

bmpcc6k wrote:
I still have a hope, look at the Komodo, why Jarred Land decided to use RF Mount instead of interchangeable or fixed EF or PL Mount or E Mount? Because in his predictions in the future RF Lenses will be used more often than the EF lenses, because of their sharpness, technology, color tones and etc...
Besides that sooner or later Sigma will start making RF Mounts wilt a bit cheap price and a lot of EF lens users will start switching or updating their lenses and cameras into RF mount eco-system.
That's how i think.


RF lenses are more modern incarnation for Canon mirrorless. Apart from likely better autofocus, RF mount alone does not impact on image sharpness or colour tones. It may just be a coincident that newer optical design coincide with RF from Canon. There will most likey be RF mount lenses with poor optics too.
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Kim Janson

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostSat Nov 07, 2020 10:37 am

As I understand it is possible to use better lens design due shorter flange distance. RF mount makes also possible to use adapters to adapt about any lens and there is already adapters with ND or polarising filter.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostSat Nov 07, 2020 4:44 pm

But can you fit internal filters into the housing in that flange distance? I read something about that on short flange mount before.

Anyway Kim, I asked about how ND's are made these days, after to suggested they could be producing the image issues people were seeing?
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostSun Nov 08, 2020 10:24 am

A still camera with BRAW focus on still images. My BMPCC4K with BRAW and Resolve are the finest camera and workflow solution I ever had in my life. ;)
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 09, 2020 11:15 am

I see they captured a lot of the streamer market with their new atem minis... I wouldn't be surprised if they launch a usb/hdmi webcam, which would also benefit from the pandemic.
As for me, bmpcc6k in a bmmcc form would be awesome (or even the original 4.6K sensor in a bmmcc form), wireless video through wifi as other manufacturers are already doing. Edit to add: built in NDs would be nice as well.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 09, 2020 4:19 pm

Whoo. That might be a bit advanced . I've been advocating a Nano camera for years that could do web and action camera. BM seems unwilling to do anything but fpga based cameras, which are more hot power hungry expensive , bigger and less featured (who can forget the HDMI and Bluetooth in the 4k pocket). They should have spoken to ambarella or green arrays by now, about doing a customised chipset they can use on many non-camera products at the same time.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 7:17 am

There was a TV interview last night with one of the most talked about person in the world right now, Uğur Şahin the CEO of BioNTech speaking via Zoom. Its becomes clear that despite 9 months into lockdown professional quality video call has illuded nearly everyone. People even top researchers are still doing "hostage videos" :o
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 7:47 am

Yes, I would imagine there would be demand for something like this.



But the first step probably should be to improve what everyone already has with simple tricks, like lights and ensuring that audio is ok.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 8:53 pm

My dream BMPCC 6K II

- 6K sensor but larger size. Closer to 1.3x crop to be able to use the Sigma 18-35mm and to fully utilize the Pictor Zoom 20-55mm.
- Faster sensor readout. Global would be ideal.
- Brighter screen
- Proper IR-cut/moire filter.
- Ability to record backup H.265 Proxies on the SD card.
- SDI
- Time code input
- True 13stops DR
- 180fps slow motion. 240 would be ideal.
- EF/PL interchangeable mount and ND build in
- Bigger battery / Power efficient circuit
- Price 2500-3000
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 8:59 pm

Bill Parousis wrote:My dream BMPCC 6K II

- 6K sensor but larger size. Closer to 1.3x crop to be able to use the Sigma 18-35mm and to fully utilize the Pictor Zoom 20-55mm.
- Faster sensor readout. Global would be ideal.
- Brighter screen
- Proper IR-cut/moire filter.
- Ability to record backup H.265 Proxies on the SD card.
- SDI
- Time code input
- True 13stops DR
- 180fps slow motion. 240 would be ideal.
- EF/PL interchangeable mount and ND build in
- Bigger battery / Power efficient circuit
- Price 2500-3000


All those things make it a bigger camera. And it arguably mostly exists as the G2.

https://flic.kr/p/2jhofPn

JB

(Also the pocket does have TC input)
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 9:20 pm

I had a dream last night that I had a Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera 6K with a Super35 sensor with MFT Mount.
It had;
A Small 2.5" daylight viewable touch screen
Best in Market Rolling Shutter with improved image quality
13.5 stops of dynamic range
IBIS stabilization
dual iso 800 and 3200 with a low light mode
Canon BP-9** or Sony NP-F9** batteries with 2-4 hours life
dual mini xlr
nd filter slot in lens mount
all the button options on the bmpcc 4k
with hdmi, mini sdi, (2) usb c and LANC
CFast and SD card compatible
One of the usb C ports connected directly to a new BM cage(sold seperately) for linking SSD and powering all of your devices.
The price was $2999 and we all lived happily ever after!
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 9:36 pm

You are right John but in two years time from now when the new camera comes out the G2 will be obsolete because of the new URSA 12K Full frame with 480fps slowmo, true 15 stops DR, RF mount and dual pixel AF.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 9:43 pm

Bill Parousis wrote:You are right John but in two years time from now when the new camera comes out the G2 will be obsolete because of the new URSA 12K Full frame with 480fps slowmo, true 15 stops DR, RF mount and dual pixel AF.


Won’t ever be RF mount. G2 is already 2 years old as well, and arguably close to 5 as it’s the same sensor as the G1 (just clocked faster)

If that 12K sensor goes to 135 format it’s 16K ;-)

JB
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 10:05 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Bill Parousis wrote:You are right John but in two years time from now when the new camera comes out the G2 will be obsolete because of the new URSA 12K Full frame with 480fps slowmo, true 15 stops DR, RF mount and dual pixel AF.


Won’t ever be RF mount. G2 is already 2 years old as well, and arguably close to 5 as it’s the same sensor as the G1 (just clocked faster)

If that 12K sensor goes to 135 format it’s 16K ;-)

JB


Cue the complainers... "Too many K! What will I do with that resolution!"

And of course those will be the same people who clamored for a 135 format camera in the first place, who will then complain that it's not medium format... :)
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostMon Nov 16, 2020 11:51 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
Bill Parousis wrote:You are right John but in two years time from now when the new camera comes out the G2 will be obsolete because of the new URSA 12K Full frame with 480fps slowmo, true 15 stops DR, RF mount and dual pixel AF.


Won’t ever be RF mount. G2 is already 2 years old as well, and arguably close to 5 as it’s the same sensor as the G1 (just clocked faster)

If that 12K sensor goes to 135 format it’s 16K ;-)

JB


Cue the complainers... "Too many K! What will I do with that resolution!"

And of course those will be the same people who clamored for a 135 format camera in the first place, who will then complain that it's not medium format... :)

I'm just going to complain now that it's not IMAX 15-perf size. Why? Because I want to be that guy. Haha. :lol:
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2, Pocket 6K, & Cinema Camera 2.5K EF
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 12:04 am

How many of your clients are watching on 5K iMacs? I'm glad they introduced 12K for 8K or even 6K. I've been watching content on a 5K iMac for 6 years already.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 2:02 am

kevinjhcw wrote:I had a dream last night that I had a Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera 6K with a Super35 sensor with MFT Mount.
It had:
(detailed list deleted for brevity)
The price was $2999 and we all lived happily ever after!


Kevin, we understand you have dreams like this of course, but I hope you didn’t share this dream with your significant other. Some things are best not talked about.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 5:40 am

John Brawley wrote:
Bill Parousis wrote:My dream BMPCC 6K II

- 6K sensor but larger size. Closer to 1.3x crop to be able to use the Sigma 18-35mm and to fully utilize the Pictor Zoom 20-55mm.
- Faster sensor readout. Global would be ideal.
- Brighter screen
- Proper IR-cut/moire filter.
- Ability to record backup H.265 Proxies on the SD card.
- SDI
- Time code input
- True 13stops DR
- 180fps slow motion. 240 would be ideal.
- EF/PL interchangeable mount and ND build in
- Bigger battery / Power efficient circuit
- Price 2500-3000


All those things make it a bigger camera. And it arguably mostly exists as the G2.

https://flic.kr/p/2jhofPn

JB

(Also the pocket does have TC input)


Sigma FX with extras?
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 5:43 am

John Brawley wrote:
Bill Parousis wrote:You are right John but in two years time from now when the new camera comes out the G2 will be obsolete because of the new URSA 12K Full frame with 480fps slowmo, true 15 stops DR, RF mount and dual pixel AF.


Won’t ever be RF mount. G2 is already 2 years old as well, and arguably close to 5 as it’s the same sensor as the G1 (just clocked faster)

If that 12K sensor goes to 135 format it’s 16K ;-)

JB


Ahh, ahh, there he's winking. He wouldn't say anything when I called the 16k FF, I knew there was something up :)

Now. If it was only the new base pocket :). I doubt that's going ever happen next.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 5:51 am

timbutt2 wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:Cue the complainers... "Too many K! What will I do with that resolution!"

And of course those will be the same people who clamored for a 135 format camera in the first place, who will then complain that it's not medium format... :)

I'm just going to complain now that it's not IMAX 15-perf size. Why? Because I want to be that guy. Haha. :lol:


Yes, 32k 180-360 degree camera rigs. The military will be happy trying to figure out how to store all that data, won't they? :)
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 7:14 pm

I really don't want a new camera with more resolution (8K, 12K,32K), larger sensor, whatever if none of these camera can be what the gold standard for cinema camera is - the Arri Alexa, which to date, is still 2.8K (upscaled to 4K UHD). Look at what it is to be equal to the Alexa and how to build it at a BMD price point, then that will be the camera I want to buy next. Otherwise, everything else is pointless to me.

Why? I don't like reframing in post. I prefer a camera that is 2.8K that has global shutter, more DR, reliable, IQ like the Arri, built-in NDs, and something that does not have to have a 12K sensor just to be able to get pictures the quality of the Arri (and not even close).

Yes, Flame me and say go get an Arri. I do rent Arri. I do like BMD too. But no matter how much K BMD throws in, it's not Arri IQ and Arri gold standard. So if BMD want to create an Arri equivalent but at BMD price points, I'd say that will be the camera I want to buy next even if it is a 2.8K sensor.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 8:31 pm

In all honesty, what I want Blackmagic Design to do is build tools for the cameras like a wireless lens control system that also works with wireless camera control. Take it a step further with wireless video and a Video Assist that can wireless control the camera. So in other words: more wireless control.

ARRI has the WCU-4 for wireless lens control. That's a great model to go off of. Currently I use the Tilta Nucleus M.

Teradek and Hollyland are the two wireless video systems I'm most familiar with. Both are good. I own the Hollyland Cosmo 600. I use a SmallHD monitor attached to it. That's what the Tilta Nucleus M works with for wireless lens control.

I love the Bluetooth+ app. I use it.

Take all these different third party technologies and put them together into a Blackmagic Wireless Control System:
Blackmagic Wireless Transmitter & Receiver
Blackmagic Wireless Video Assist (Not only getting video from the wireless transmitter, but also wireless control of camera settings)
Blackmagic Wireless Lens Control

Pairing all of it together with the Pockets and URSA Mini Pros would be a dream come true. Better yet, it would make the whole ecosystem so nice.

So that's less new camera, but more new tools.

For the next generation 12K I would love for higher frame rates to get better rolling shutter. 12K G2 matching 4.6K G2 in that regard is my main hope. But I'd love for the necessary body improvements to work with the new Wireless System I'm proposing. Things like Lemo power output at the front of the camera so that you can power the wireless motors through the camera without having to go to the D-Tap.

In fact, if the whole power system could also have metadata being feed through it then the motors could communicate that data with the wireless hand unit and you could get accurate focus marks, zoom focal positions, and iris settings. This would especially work great with /I Technology lenses.

Just some thoughts.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 8:35 pm

timbutt2 wrote:In fact, if the whole power system could also have metadata being feed through it then the motors could communicate that data with the wireless hand unit and you could get accurate focus marks, zoom focal positions, and iris settings. This would especially work great with /I Technology lenses.



Yeah basically being able to "network" all these pieces together.

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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 9:01 pm

John Brawley wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:In fact, if the whole power system could also have metadata being feed through it then the motors could communicate that data with the wireless hand unit and you could get accurate focus marks, zoom focal positions, and iris settings. This would especially work great with /I Technology lenses.



Yeah basically being able to "network" all these pieces together.

JB

Yes! Exactly. This is maybe a 5-year plan. But I don't mind playing the long game.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2, Pocket 6K, & Cinema Camera 2.5K EF
Computers: iMac 5K (Mid 2020) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostTue Nov 17, 2020 10:00 pm

timbutt2 wrote:
John Brawley wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:In fact, if the whole power system could also have metadata being feed through it then the motors could communicate that data with the wireless hand unit and you could get accurate focus marks, zoom focal positions, and iris settings. This would especially work great with /I Technology lenses.



Yeah basically being able to "network" all these pieces together.

JB

Yes! Exactly. This is maybe a 5-year plan. But I don't mind playing the long game.


Neither does Black Magic, obviously. :)
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostWed Nov 18, 2020 12:17 am

I think Blackmagic is doing a lot of things right with their cameras but my hands down biggest frustration with their cameras has been the form factor. I would love to see a smaller form factor similar to DSMC2 and Kinefinity cameras that can be built out to suit each user.

I also really wish they would come out with a detachable screen (like the KineMON-7U) that interfaces with their amazing camera OS. Mounting our URSA to our ronin 2 is a pain because the flip screen is completely blocked, and while you can still use the physical buttons its still a pain if you need to get into the menu system.

So PLEASE Blackmagic come out with a real cinema body for your sensors! This isn't something I would expect to be a budget camera, and I would happily pay 10k plus for something like this.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 12:38 am

"Why? I don't like reframing in post. I prefer a camera that is 2.8K that has global shutter, more DR, reliable, IQ like the Arri, built-in NDs, and something that does not have to have a 12K sensor just to be able to get pictures the quality of the Arri (and not even close). "

I agree. I suppose it is pretty subjective but I am after a certain aesthetic.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 4:42 pm

Having the crop option is handy for events and corporates when time for setting up can be short. I think it is another of those "not because you can but whether you should" creative things otherwise.

For me, a 12K cam will have to wait until there are a bunch of very affordable secondhand roses among their number. The problem is that by the time that happens, there may be few survivors if like some of the other BM cams, their tech is delicate and they fail.

Being cheap is how I came to make the move to the original "big" URSA from the SI2K which I had modified to within an inch of its life. The "big" URSA has global shutter.
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Re: What camera do you want to buy from BM next?

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 6:43 pm

In retrospect, that original URSA was a huge step for BMD designed around one vision of a small crew of three or four people who would be tethered in some form to the unit. But that was really their first effort going after that potential customer base and a base on average that they hadn’t appealed to significantly with the BMCC and the BMPCC so they didn’t likely see as much pickup as they needed. The URSA Mini 4.6K suited a one or two person crew tethered to the camera and was more popular.

Their proprietary 6x6 sensor may be a ‘game changer’ that leads to a family of new cameras, but I am very fond of the Dual ISO approach in the BMPCC4K and BMPCC6K due to the lack of controlled lighting in many of my shoots. Leaning towards 8K capture to deliver 4K as my next camera, but want to have good ISO 3200 lowlight capability too like the BMPCC4K.

Having played with that UMP12K footage, I’m very impressed with how easily malleable those frames are when not properly exposed but are graded as HDR in Resolve 17. Better than BMPCC4K. The cameras and Resolve are a great match and everything is coming together in terms of quality images now from BRAW 2 Colour Science 5.
Rick Lang
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