Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

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FunkyPanos

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Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 5:53 pm

I know that Blackmagic does a great job in listening to its customers' needs, and by watching everyday's cinema camera news, reviews and customers' wishes, I think it's about the right time to "pose" that million dollar question:

-Should we expect to see a FF Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera anytime soon?

As Ι am not expecting anyone from BMD to just "pop-out" and give a straight answer to this, (as we already know and respect the non-disclosure policy of our beloved company), I would at least appreciate if some technical person, either from Blackmagic, or some other technician/connoisseur of the current [FF] sensor technology, could at least shed some light to any of these (logical to me) following questions:

1) Would there be any Full Frame Sensor [of current technology] capable of recording 12bit BRAW at any given resolution and bitrate?

2) And If the answer is 'yes', then next question is, what would be the limits on such (a) resolution(s) and bitrate(s)? (based on current FF sensor technology of course!)

PERSONALLY, I would be more than happy If I could have a FF BMPCC 4K able to record 12bit BRAW at 48, 50 or 60 fps (but 48 is more than enough for me), in 5:1 or 8:1, or even 12:1 compression ratio (depending on selected fps), and recording to an SSD drive. A very welcome addition would be an in-sensor downscaling from 6k, (as I don't think it would be very do-able to make a straight FF 6k-recording camera with these specs and still keep the budget low, which is what...

...has made the (original) BMPCC 4K not only THE MOST revolutionary cinema product EVER (imho), but (most importantly) Blackmagic Design has made a HUGE WORLDWIDE SOCIOLOGICAL IMPACT to us, aspiring artists/cinematographers, in making our visions come true!! And THIS ALONE, in my honest opinion, IS PRICELESS, and will be remembered and appreciated from both current AND next generation upcoming cinematographers, for many years to come!!!

So THANK YOU BLACKMAGIC for giving such a great (BMPCC 4K) to the world, and I was wondering if you could do the same with Full Frame, ESPECIALLY if Mr Brian Caldwell from Metabones, or maybe KIPON Adapters, would be kind enough to Design a Medium Format Speed Booster for that camera too, that will let us experiment with some Great Vintage MF glasses as well?? (From Pentax, or Haselblad, Kiev88, Mamiya ....there's plenty of to find!!)

As I'm not a technical person, would someone be kind enough (with an educated technical background and who is also up-to date with current Full-Frame Sensor technology) make a speculation, or an (educated) guess, about what could we expect next, preferably, with a time speculation (if possible)?? THANK Y'ALL!!!
Last edited by FunkyPanos on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:58 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 7:14 pm

To my thinking, Full Frame is a photographic standard. The Cinematography standard is Super 35, and we already have that with the Pocket 6K.

We're good. ;)
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FunkyPanos

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 10:49 pm

Jim Simon wrote:To my thinking, Full Frame is a photographic standard. The Cinematography standard is Super 35, and we already have that with the Pocket 6K.

We're good. ;)

Without wanting to be disrespectful to your comment, I think that when we are talking about Real Art, there are no standards!! And Cinematography is the 'so called' 7th Art. Therefore, there is no such thing as "Full Frame is a photographic standard" and "the Cinematography standard is Super 35".

Cinematography Art Evolves, so are we as Humans first, and then as Artists.

And as far as your comment goes "We're good"...... Maybe YOU are. Not US necessarily.

Any other, (more useful) comments, from a technical standpoint, (like I kindly requested), please??
Last edited by FunkyPanos on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 11:10 pm

Judging by their track record I don't see BMD ever making a camera that overheats. Maybe a full frame pocket camera is a challenge with currently available (affordable) technology, a larger sensor creates more heat requiring a larger body. Compared to the competition BMD also works with both higher bit rates and FPGAs instead of ASICs, potentially creating even more heat.

Of course technology will eventually catch up.
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FunkyPanos

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 11:46 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:Judging by their track record I don't see BMD ever making a camera that overheats. Maybe a full frame pocket camera is a challenge with currently available (affordable) technology, a larger sensor creates more heat requiring a larger body. Compared to the competition BMD also works with both higher bit rates and FPGAs instead of ASICs, potentially creating even more heat.

Of course technology will eventually catch up.

Thank you so much for your reply!! Actually, this is the kind of tech conversation I was seeking for in this thread!

Although I did a quick google search on FPGAs and ASICs and (provided that) I'm not that knowledgeable in 'grasping immediately' such nice technical terms, would it be possible if you could explain a bit (in simple technical terms that can grasp most of us here), what are the main differences between these 2 technologies/chips?

Thank you for participating!
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Curtis Campsall

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 12:46 am

Given that the new flagship 12k is super35, I can't see them putting a full frame sensor in a pocket cam. I honestly don't think there is a technical reason why it isn't possible though, if they used the 6k Sony sensor from the same family as the current 6k, same as ZCam is doing. There would be no more data overhead than the current 6k, and these chips go into Sony mirrorless which are half the size of the pocket cams and seem to be preferred by a lot of shooters, so who knows.
Dop16mm on the other forum
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FunkyPanos

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 12:56 am

WOW, I just found a very enlightening article about the differences between FPGA vs ASIC chips, as I was inspired by Mr. Magnusson's answer, to search even more:

https://numato.com/blog/differences-bet ... and-asics/

From my little technical understanding, this article could possibly give (some) explanations as to why BMD decided to go that route (choosing FPGA instead of ASIC chips). More specifically, I'd like to give some (possible) explanations in some aspects, based on some (quoted) points of that article:

If you look on the section of the article "FPGA vs ASIC comparison summary", you'll find some FPGA basic characteristics that COULD (potentially) explain some things. "Quoted" is the original text, and in parentheses, my given explanation. And please, feel free to let me know if I got (some of them) right, or at least close enough!!

FPGA:
1. "Reconfigurable circuit. FPGAs can be reconfigured with a different design. They even have capability to reconfigure a part of chip while remaining areas of chip are still working! This feature is widely used in accelerated computing in data centres."
(possibly this explains as to why BMD is able to provide such impressive functional firmware updates to its products, my example here is the Pocket 4k which, with the firmware update 6.6 (i think) just became another...BEAST [the update with the anamorphic and the other aspect ratios, and their EVEN HIGHER Frame Rates!]

2. "Design is specified generally using hardware description languages (HDL) such as VHDL or Verilog."
(no comment on this one!)

3. "Easier entry-barrier. One can get started with FPGA development for as low as USD $30."
(maybe this is partly why BMD is able to produce these pocket cinema cameras at such a great price!)

4. "Not suited for very high-volume mass production."
(maybe this explains that big delay in delivery, thus making it necessary to pre-order. Personally, REALLY NOT A PROBLEM on that! For me, it's better to wait for something such great and affordable to be manufactured, rather than get it straight away and pay a fortune for it!!!)

5. "Less energy efficient, requires more power for same function which ASIC can achieve at lower power."
(and this explains directly what Mr.Roger Magnusson was meaning when writing that: "Compared to the competition BMD also works with both higher bit rates and FPGAs instead of ASICs, potentially creating even more heat.") Personally, I wouldn't mind a bigger camera body, or maybe a bigger and noisier fan to cool down the sensor!! As long as it remains cost effective (and wouldn't mind it being plastic either, as it will end-up in a nice metallic Cage or Rig anyways!!)

There are another 5 (numbered 6-10) FPGA chip characteristics, that do not make any direct sense to my limited technical (common) knowledge, so I don't want to tire the average reader (like me) on this thread, but the more knowledgeable ones of you guys here, can certainly find useful info on this topic by reading the full article!

I feel lucky enough that I've found it and shared it with you!

Any other input on the FF BMPCC topic on this thread, please, please welcome!!!
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FunkyPanos

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 1:40 am

Curtis Campsall wrote:Given that the new flagship 12k is super35, I can't see them putting a full frame sensor in a pocket cam. I honestly don't think there is a technical reason why it isn't possible though, if they used the 6k Sony sensor from the same family as the current 6k, same as ZCam is doing. There would be no more data overhead than the current 6k, and these chips go into Sony mirrorless which are half the size of the pocket cams and seem to be preferred by a lot of shooters, so who knows.

Like you so correctly pointed out, their new 12k Super35 is a FLAGSHIP model. And as such, it is supposed to be addressed to real working professionals, possibly Mainstream ones (meaning "not indie self-funding ones"), who are most certainly able to rent or even own, expensive Super-35mm Zeiss, ARRi, Panavision, , or even More Expensive Anamorphic Glass. This is the PERFECT CAMERA for them!! No doubt about it!! And at that ridiculous price point (for them also!!), they can certainly OWN one!!

But for us indie folks, who all we can afford is some Vintage fairly cheap (but good!!) Contax-Zeiss FF photo lenses (in best-case scenario), or some Takumars or Pentax K Full Frame also (photo) Glasses (cheaper solution), or maybe some Modern Samyang/Rokinon FF Glasses (more costly but more worthy for some!), going the route of THAT Full Frame POCKET CINEMA CAMERA would be our ONLY option to go!!

Also don't forget, that Full Frame Cameras are the closest equivalent to Medium Format, if somebody wishes to experiment with that 'medium format look' with a nicely-made speed booster for that reason, such as Metabones or Kippon, and as far as I can know, there is many of us STRIVING FOR THAT OPTION, given that there's plenty of Vintage Used, and in Great condition glasses out there to buy!!!
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Krishna Pada

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 5:08 am

Jim Simon wrote:To my thinking, Full Frame is a photographic standard. The Cinematography standard is Super 35, and we already have that with the Pocket 6K.

We're good. ;)


Well, well.
Arri LF, Arri LF Mini
Red Monstro
Sony Venice, Sony FX9
Canon C700

All these cameras have gone by the "photographic standard". Among cinema camera makers BMD is the only name missing.
FILMWALLAH.
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FunkyPanos

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 7:48 am

Krishna Pada wrote:
Jim Simon wrote:To my thinking, Full Frame is a photographic standard. The Cinematography standard is Super 35, and we already have that with the Pocket 6K.

We're good. ;)


Well, well.
Arri LF, Arri LF Mini
Red Monstro
Sony Venice, Sony FX9
Canon C700

All these cameras have gone by the "photographic standard". Among cinema camera makers BMD is the only name missing.

EXACTLY THAT. THANK YOU!!!
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Mark Foster

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 8:55 am

FunkyPanos wrote:
Krishna Pada wrote:
Jim Simon wrote:To my thinking, Full Frame is a photographic standard. The Cinematography standard is Super 35, and we already have that with the Pocket 6K.

We're good. ;)


Well, well.
Arri LF, Arri LF Mini
Red Monstro
Sony Venice, Sony FX9
Canon C700

All these cameras have gone by the "photographic standard". Among cinema camera makers BMD is the only name missing.

EXACTLY THAT. THANK YOU!!!



this companies only do this because people like you ask for something like that
and to still earn money with this group of customers.

for example arri, 99% of all shoots in the film, series and advertising segment
are shot with a camera that has a super35 sensor with a maximum resolution of 3.2k

and I keep seeing why people shoot in 8k with a RED.
so that you can zoom in because you don't know or worry about
the camera position or focal lengh beforehand.

this is how it looks!
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB 860pro/4x4TB HGST/SSD7101A 4x2TB 970evoplus/HP1344/BMD4k/Radeon VII
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/2x2TB 860pro/wingsX1 2TB 970evoplus/titanridgeTB3/HP1344/Radeon VII
cMP 5.1 2x3,46/96GB/TB3/vega64
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 9:56 am

Curtis Campsall wrote:Given that the new flagship 12k is super35, I can't see them putting a full frame sensor in a pocket cam. I honestly don't think there is a technical reason why it isn't possible though, if they used the 6k Sony sensor from the same family as the current 6k, same as ZCam is doing. There would be no more data overhead than the current 6k, and these chips go into Sony mirrorless which are half the size of the pocket cams and seem to be preferred by a lot of shooters, so who knows.

As I understand it Z Cam uses ASICs to a larger extent than BMD.

The new Sony A7S III overheats at high frame rates. Again, I don't think BMD would ever release a camera that overheats.
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FunkyPanos

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 6:34 pm

Mark Foster wrote:this companies only do this because people like you ask for something like that
and to still earn money with this group of customers.

for example arri, 99% of all shoots in the film, series and advertising segment
are shot with a camera that has a super35 sensor with a maximum resolution of 3.2k

and I keep seeing why people shoot in 8k with a RED.
so that you can zoom in because you don't know or worry about
the camera position or focal lengh beforehand.

this is how it looks!

Sure, but I guess you're talking about that 99% of all shots done by a specific group of people only, which consists of strictly professionals, mainly from the mainstream film industry!! What about indie filmmakers, who are more experimentative on their majority, and they like to use just any sensor sizes, types of lenses, speed boosters or different filters, for all those different aesthetics that any of these combinations can offer to them creatively? They want to be able to have even more expressive tools on their disposal, and this can only be done on a budget!

And please don't forget that the vast majority of Blackmagic Design's customers/clientele consists of this type of indie filmmakers! So there's really no excuse for BMD NOT to offer such a camera to their respected clients!!
Krishna Pada wrote:Well, well.
Arri LF, Arri LF Mini
Red Monstro
Sony Venice, Sony FX9
Canon C700

All these cameras have gone by the "photographic standard". Among cinema camera makers BMD is the only name missing.

As Krishna Pada very well noted, all the "Big Cats" have a Full Frame (or 2) camera(s) to offer already. BUT, I will add 2 more companies he forgot to mention, which are EVEN MORE direct competitors to Blackmagic Design, (at least on the budget-side):

1) ZCAM E2-F6, AND ZCAM E2-F8 (2 FF offerings from the same small, but so highly up-coming company!!
2) KiNEFiNiTY MAVO LF and the new MAVO Edge 8k (more on the "expensive-budget" side, but still on the same philosophy company)

So that to really say, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BMD not to have ANY Full Frame Camera offering at their arsenal, YET!!

For example, I would NEVER sell my Pocket 4k because of its unique character that its sensor size gives me, which is the closest I can find (in 4k) to get that filmic 16mm look which I LOVE! But I also love the Full Frame, as well as the Medium format look, which I'd love to be able and use them depending on the specific aesthetic for the scene I'm going for! So I would DEFINITELY buy a FF BMPCC if one existed, EVEN TOMORROW!! Because I do not have a big budget, like most of the customers of BMD, so by owning just 2 cameras, I would be able to explore with most filmic looks:

Super 16, m4/3 and Super 35 (with a Metabones speed booster 0.71) on my 4k, and
Full Frame and Medium Format (using a Kipon Baveyes 0.7 or possibly a Metabones if they made one) with a perspective FF BMPCC(4?/6?)K.

I do not have the extra cash to spend on an expensive Super 35mm camera, sorry!! And BMPCC6K doesn't "cut it" for me, because the LucAdapters Magicbooster just failed to deliver, and it degrades the image so badly (for most peoples' taste). ALSO, if you consider that this camera features an old fashioned long-flange-distance Canon EF mount that you can't really have that many options for lenses to put on it, these are the 2 main reasons I consider the 6K to be a TOTAL (and not only a commercial) FAILURE for BMD!! (this is also shown by the huge price drop they had to do, and I think they will drop it even more in price, in the near future!!)

And oh, by the way, I LOVE the colour science of BMD as well as BRAW, AND Davinci workflow, so I wouldn't consider switching to another company that easily!! BUT, on the other side, if I don't see any evolution/future/improvement towards my Full Frame needs, from my (now) favourite company in a few months from now, I might be able to switch to a FF Camera of the closest company with the most similar colour science and aesthetics as BMD. Still don't know which one would be, but for now I can still wait.........
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Derek Howard

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 8:51 pm

If your preference is for Full Frame simply because you like the feel of the image, then you might want to go with another camera. As you mentioned there are plenty of good FF camera options on the market right now.

However, I don't see Blackmagic moving that direction anytime soon simply because, from a technical standpoint, the hype is overblown.

First, a quick technical clarification: Full frame is not a photography Medium Format as that MF is 50mm. I find it more than a little misleading for the marketing of some camera companies to call their cameras "LF" or large format considering they are just full frame 35mm. A true large format from film would be a sensor closer to 5-perf 65mm or 15-perf 65mm or IMAX.

But getting back to the topic, Here are a few reasons why:

The primary advantages of FF over Super35 are the following:

1. Larger Resolution
2. Cleaner Image (less noise/grain)
3. Wider Field of View
4. More/easier falloff and DoF

Each of these points are moot if you consider the direction BM is going with their new senors kicked off by the 12k camera:

1. Larger Resolution - Means nothing considering a Super35 at 12k is in the ballpark of 70mm resolution anyway

2. Cleaner Image (less noise/grain) - Shooting at higher that deliverable (12k down to 4k fro example) shrinks noise down considerably. Not to mention the advancements in cleaner sensor outputs in both the sensor tech and software.

3. Wider Field of View - Again, pointless as after a certain point this is largely determined more by lens choice.

4. More/easier falloff and DoF - Innovations in faster and faster glass has made it very easy for even low budget indie shooters to achieve incredibly shallow DoF as necessary.

If we were stuck with the same typical Bayer pattern digital sensors we were at for the last 10 years, then the pursuit of a large physical sensor makes sense, but BM's new 12k sensor changes the game on a lot of that.

Personally, I've seen many films shot in larger formats like 70mm and IMAX and I do see the benefits of higher resolutions. I'm going to be very interested to see how the 12k footage compares. That said, I've shot both full frame and Super35 and I think the difference is negligible but that's me.

Again, if FF is your preference, that's great. Art is all about preference and vision. But, for reasons like above, I don't see BM pursuing it in the near future.
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FunkyPanos

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostWed Sep 16, 2020 1:53 am

Derek Howard wrote:If your preference is for Full Frame simply because you like the feel of the image, then you might want to go with another camera. As you mentioned there are plenty of good FF camera options on the market right now.

However, I don't see Blackmagic moving that direction anytime soon simply because, from a technical standpoint, the hype is overblown.

First, a quick technical clarification: Full frame is not a photography Medium Format as that MF is 50mm. I find it more than a little misleading for the marketing of some camera companies to call their cameras "LF" or large format considering they are just full frame 35mm. A true large format from film would be a sensor closer to 5-perf 65mm or 15-perf 65mm or IMAX.

But getting back to the topic, Here are a few reasons why:

The primary advantages of FF over Super35 are the following:

1. Larger Resolution
2. Cleaner Image (less noise/grain)
3. Wider Field of View
4. More/easier falloff and DoF

Each of these points are moot if you consider the direction BM is going with their new senors kicked off by the 12k camera:

1. Larger Resolution - Means nothing considering a Super35 at 12k is in the ballpark of 70mm resolution anyway

2. Cleaner Image (less noise/grain) - Shooting at higher that deliverable (12k down to 4k fro example) shrinks noise down considerably. Not to mention the advancements in cleaner sensor outputs in both the sensor tech and software.

3. Wider Field of View - Again, pointless as after a certain point this is largely determined more by lens choice.

4. More/easier falloff and DoF - Innovations in faster and faster glass has made it very easy for even low budget indie shooters to achieve incredibly shallow DoF as necessary.

If we were stuck with the same typical Bayer pattern digital sensors we were at for the last 10 years, then the pursuit of a large physical sensor makes sense, but BM's new 12k sensor changes the game on a lot of that.

Personally, I've seen many films shot in larger formats like 70mm and IMAX and I do see the benefits of higher resolutions. I'm going to be very interested to see how the 12k footage compares. That said, I've shot both full frame and Super35 and I think the difference is negligible but that's me.

Again, if FF is your preference, that's great. Art is all about preference and vision. But, for reasons like above, I don't see BM pursuing it in the near future.

Welcome to this thread Derek, and thank you for your insightful input!

According to your nicely structured argumentation, you've made more than clear to us, as to why Blackmagic would have no reason going into "backwards FF sensor technology" (sort of speak), when they have invented such a revolutionary new 12k S-35 sensor, which, regardless being Super 35, is spec'ed to have all the benefits of a Full Frame plus even more, from larger formats like 70mm and IMAX, like you've pointed out. And that could possibly change the game. All we remain to see, is the new sensor in Action, and how it really compares with iMAX in Action (and please, if you run into any tests, just post them here too!)

So your first 2 arguments, regarding 1) Larger Resolution and 2) Cleaner Image (less noise/grain) are totally understandable from a technical standpoint, regarding their new sensor technology. (Or at least in theory, until we see real proof of images and compare the aesthetics of these 2 [emerging?] sensor technologies).

My real concern though, is about your next 2 advantages of a FF sensor over S-35, (3. Wider Field of View, and 4. More/easier falloff and DoF), because those 2 depend more on the lens choices as you've said. And here is exactly where the real problem begins:

-- Will the new BMD 12k Ursa Mini Pro be designed cleverly enough to let you CHOOSE and INSTALL ANY (or at least some!!) of the most common modern (AND SHORT flange distance) mounts, such as Canon RF, or Leica L-Mount, or Fujifilm X-Mount, or Sony E, or maybe even A NEW (why not??) proprietary Blackmagic equivalent short-flange distance mount, that will allow space for a proper (Metabones) speed booster to be designed and installed, and be able to use our already owned, moody and so much beloved for their character Full Frame and Medium Format Glasses??!!

OR, will BMD repeat the same mistake they've done again (in both URSAS and BMPCC 6K) and just get stuck again to that STUBBORN and old-fashioned Canon EF, or (even worse!) the Arri PL (which I think it originally comes with?!) , WHICH IS A TOTAL NO-NO for anyone else except the heavily-well paid and Elite Professionals??
I think, from a technical standpoint, it would be no big issue to offer any of the mount options I mentioned. Even Chinese companies offer such so useful modern mount options, so come on Blackmagic, you can really do better on that too!!!

Or, OK, lets accept the fact that BMD decides to keep their new sensor technology for that Ursa Pro, for which I'm honestly wishing them to really change the game, BUT CAN THEY AT LEAST OFFER a more affordable camera option, of the same technology, OK, possibly a more cut-down version, but for us, indie filmmakers? Either a smaller Ursa or a Pocket, it really doesn't matter to me anymore!

In case the answer on that question is that, NO, BMD CAN'T OFFER THAT, then would it (maybe finally!) be easier for them to just make at least a freakin' "typical Bayer pattern digital Full Frame Sensor", using pretty much the same technology from their BMPCC 6K and just make it a Full-Frame-Equivalent V2 or somethin', with a MORE USEFUL [SHORT-flange distance mount] to mount speed boosters on, MORE LENSES, and just LET THAT BE THE HAPPY END FOR ALL OF US INDIE'S FOLKS, WHO WANT THAT FF SENSOR TO MOUNT OUR PURE BELOVED LENSES W/O SPEEDBOOSTERS, AND REST IN PEACE FOREVER?? (and ONLY put a necessary speed booster on, when we need to experiment with Medium Format Glasses!)

After all that I've read from you guys in this thread, I think it's just a PIECE OF CAKE for BMD to make such a FF Pocket Camera, don't you think? They JUST MADE A FREAKIN' NEW HI-TECH 12K ONE, so It's just PURELY a matter of decision for them, WE NOW KNOW they can!! And I really cannot understand WHY they shouldn't decide it, as most people here (and there, outside of this forum community) would agree with me, that SUCH a camera, would be the NEXT BMPCC 4K WITH HELLUVA CRAZY SALES, and possibly THE budget camera for the NEXT DECADE!!

Pre-Ordering such a camera would just be a HELL OF INSANE waiting times, (which would make 4k seem like it was delivered by the fastest courier in the world!!), BUT HEY, WHO CARES, I'm really willing to sacrifice a great bit of my time, waiting to receive THE NEXT BIG NEW CAM THAT WILL CHANGE THE FILM WORLD AGAIN, AFTER 3 YEARS (in which we have already been PRAISING ENOUGH THE BMPCC 4K, and we will certainly continue to do so EVEN after the FF Version COMES OUT, simply because THESE 2 CAMERAS WILL BE JUST IRREPLACEABLE, there will not be such thing as an "upgrade" or something like that. NOT EITHER/OR, JUST GET MORE, BY BUYING THEM BOTH!

BOTH m4/3 BMPCC4K AND FF BMPCC 6K/4K will just be DIFFERENT BEASTS, BOTH NECESSARY TO COVER DIFFERENT CREATIVE ASPECTS FOR OUR INDIE PURE CREATIVE WORK!! There's no question about it, there'll be no such think as either/or, the ONLY solution is GET THEM BOTH!!!
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lost_soul

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostWed Sep 16, 2020 6:53 am

So that to really say, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BMD not to have ANY Full Frame Camera offering at their arsenal, YET!!

THERE IS NO NEED FOR BMD to have ANY Full Frame Camera offering in their arsenal, YET

Fixed it for you. I understand that no one was able to make movies before there were full frame digital cinema cameras. I have been told that over and over so it must be true. You believe bigger automatically means better so why are you demanding full frame when you could be demanding large format? The truth is if you can't figure out how to shoot it with S35 you probably won't figure out how to shoot it with FF. There is nothing magical about FF and it really was not handed down from on high by god as the one true format. If you need more bokeh get a faster lens, change the ratio of the distance between the camera, the subject and the back ground. Need a wider image? Buy a wider lens or back up. There are lots of things that you can do to make S35 look like FF if you know what your doing. Not every thing needs to be a hardware solution unless you just enjoy having GAS.

Shooting photos yes there are times when I really enjoy a 1/16th" DOF. But wow is that impractical in video and I have no desire to replace all my lenses to get it. In the mean time Zach has the most compelling take on the sensor size debate ever done right here.

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostWed Sep 16, 2020 7:15 am

Dynamic rangers one of the most important selling points of a cinema camera. if a full frame sensor with larger photo sites is able to deliver a higher dynamic range then it definitely makes sense for black magic to produce a full frame camera. While it more than likely will never happen, I would only see black magic ever making a full frame camera if there's a specific sensor that drastically improved image quality over what they currently offer.
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Krishna Pada

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostWed Sep 16, 2020 10:44 am

lost_soul wrote:
So that to really say, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BMD not to have ANY Full Frame Camera offering at their arsenal, YET!!


THERE IS NO NEED FOR BMD to have ANY Full Frame Camera offering in their arsenal, YET


There is no need, yet, yes. :D

Let's look at BMD's camera line.

1. Pocket. People who like this form factor and since BMD doesn't provide a full-frame camera can easily migrate to Sony A7s3 with a Ninja 5 attached and can shoot in full-frame as well as Raw.

2. Ursa Mini. People who like this form factor and since BMD will not provide a full frame camera can easily migrate to Sony FX9 with Shogun attached and can shoot in full-frame as well as Raw. Cost wise FX9 comes in the same bracket as UMP 12K. With the announcement of FX6 round the corner, the cost might come down to the cost of UMP G2.

What they'll miss, if they migrate? BRAW, because it is a fantastic codec. But then, BRAW was invented only two years ago, while the "photographic" 35 mm, known now as Full Frame about seven years ago. So, from a purist's point of view who always talk about "gold standards", losing BRAW is nothing much.

What BMD misses? A few "stupid" cinematographers who have "fallen" for the "Full-frame" and who have no regards towards tradition. Nothing much actually.

So, this is fine, "THERE IS NO NEED FOR BMD to have ANY Full Frame Camera offering in their arsenal, YET" ;)
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostWed Sep 16, 2020 11:48 am

I think most of people that ask for full frame not use really full frame camera to shoot photo and video.
Most of low cost vintage lenses are good or excellent for aps-c and s35, but in front of full frame sensor show their weakness in line resolution, deformation on the edge, fall-off of sharpeness on edge, cromatic aberration and more.
When you go in full frame most vintage low cost lenses are Not enough good.
I use and shoot photo with all format from medium format (film strip) to digital full frame, spa-c, m4/3 and I’m a vintage lover of all kind of lenses from Zeiss to voightlander from Pentax to Leica, but also if you have a vintage lenses in a great condition, most of them are weak on ff.
if you ask for full frame you must be ready to pay a lots for ff lenses or you not find so much earning to shooting ff against s35.
A tool is a tool, if you like ff, good for you, but if there isn’t so much ff cameras against s35 camera there are a lots of reasons.
If ff market will be big enough for Blackmagic Design to develop it, good for it. :-)


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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostWed Sep 16, 2020 6:18 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:vintage low cost lenses are Not enough good.
I use and shoot photo with all format fI think most of people that ask for full frame not use really full frame camera to shoot photo and video.
Most of low cost vintage lenses are good or excellent for aps-c and s35, but in front of full frame sensor show their weakness in line resolution, deformation on the edge, fall-off of sharpeness on edge, cromatic aberration and more.
When you go in full frame most rom medium format (film strip) to digital full frame, spa-c, m4/3 and I’m a vintage lover of all kind of lenses from Zeiss to voightlander from Pentax to Leica, but also if you have a vintage lenses in a great condition, most of them are weak on ff.
if you ask for full frame you must be ready to pay a lots for ff lenses or you not find so much earning to shooting ff against s35.
A tool is a tool, if you like ff, good for you, but if there isn’t so much ff cameras against s35 camera there are a lots of reasons.
If ff market will be big enough for Blackmagic Design to develop it, good for it. :-)
Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


So what are the new FF lenses that would be optically better than a vintage set? Names? CP.2, CP.3? Sigma? Tokina Vistavision? Maybe Supreme Primes?
I own a set of Zeiss Contax, and building up a set of Leica R, so far have got two, will be adding another 3 soon.
I also own a CP.3 set, modern you may say.
I have seen no weakness in the Contax primes or the Leica R's so far as compared to CP.3. Have tested them on Monstro with EF mount. Once in a while I have used Milvus and, again, no difference besides the flare quality.
So I am really curious.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostThu Sep 17, 2020 7:18 am

lost_soul wrote:THERE IS NO NEED FOR BMD to have ANY Full Frame Camera offering in their arsenal, YET

Fixed it for you. I understand that no one was able to make movies before there were full frame digital cinema cameras. I have been told that over and over so it must be true. You believe bigger automatically means better so why are you demanding full frame when you could be demanding large format? The truth is if you can't figure out how to shoot it with S35 you probably won't figure out how to shoot it with FF. There is nothing magical about FF and it really was not handed down from on high by god as the one true format. If you need more bokeh get a faster lens, change the ratio of the distance between the camera, the subject and the back ground. Need a wider image? Buy a wider lens or back up. There are lots of things that you can do to make S35 look like FF if you know what your doing. Not every thing needs to be a hardware solution unless you just enjoy having GAS.


I wouldn't even bother commenting on the biggest part of your second paragraph, being too spiteful for the techy-mood of this thread, plus it contains some really snide comments, which do not offer anything but negativity, into that positively informative vibe of this conversation! But because I'm feeling a little more "philanthropist' than usual today, I think I might do you the favour and comment on some! So here we go...

Dear Mr "lost_soul", I didn't talk about anything 'Magical', or 'God-handed'/Godly-Sent about 'converting' to Full Frame! I wasn't even demanding from Blackmagic a FF Camera so that I could SWITCH TO!!!!! Like I've said before, I'm a PROUD owner of a MICRO FOUR THIRDS BMPCC4K, which I wouldn't sell for ANY freaking reason in this world, and I can get ALL my S**T done, EVEN with THAT camera, without EVER NEEDING a S-35, as you bluntly say, "if you can't figure out how to shoot it with S35 you probably won't figure out how to shoot it with FF"....

So, according to your (non-existent) logic, I'm shooting with an even "worse" (for you) camera already, and I STILL CAN deliver... So would I need an S-35 camera to "prove" I would be capable to shoot on FF? I think you already know the answer, so lets get a bit more serious already ;)

IF you've read this thread from its very beginning, all I've been trying to say, was that FF this is JUST an expressive tool/format, the same way that S-35 is (for its characteristic aesthetic reasons obviously), the m4/3 AGAIN for its specific aesthetic reasons, (and if you want to achieve that serious "drone-like" look/fast paced effect, that's the best way to go imho!) , Super 16 again for its same ("romantic") reasons, and of course, last but not least... LARGE FORMAT!!! Hey hey... Welcome to Real World now...We're getting to our point here... :P

Lemme tell you though, got bad news for ya! Well, I don't know how RICH you are, or if you're living to such a prosperous country that you can find Large Format Rentals two (or maybe 3!!) blocks away from your house...OR if you can even AFFORD to rent such Large Format ARRI (or such) bodies and lenses....

BUT TRUTH IS, (at least for us "poor" and "aspiring" cinematographers), that IF WE WANT to experiment with THAT "MEDIUM" ("photographic") Format that we're HERE talking about, but ON A BUDGET, because THIS IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD!!), WE can ONLY DO SO by using a Full Frame Sensor PLUS a Speedbooster!! LIKE WE DO THE SAME FOR FF LENSES ON THE BMPCC4K PLUS the METABONES (CINE) XL 0.64x!!! Is there any part THAT HARD to understand here? Cause I'll be more than happy to explain it again and again and again if anybody needs to!!!

And my main concern in this thread, like I've repeated SOOO many times for anyone to 'grasp' already, is BUDGET CINEMATOGRAPHY (sounds a bit redundant to repeat that for a millionth time, doesn't it? But regardless, I'll say that again... (just for Mr "Justin Case" to hear :P )

So, there's no such thing as "If you need more bokeh get a faster lens" or "Need a wider image? Buy a wider lens or back up", cause WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOME SERIOUS THOUSAND DOLLAR S-35 GLASSES here, both expensive (AND NOT EVERYWHERE available to rent), more so to buy!!!

LAST BUT NOT LEAST, IF Blackmagic Design would give US that so-called-and-desired "Short-Flange-Distance " mount options to their cameras (just ANY type/brand of them, really doesn't matter to me, I'm not any brand-specific maniac!!!), then we could even consider cheaper S-35 alternatives, AKA APS-C lenses from the likes of Sigma, SLR Magic, Mitakon, 7Artisans, Samyang/Rokinon, and the list goes on....

But only offering ARRi PL and Canon EF mount, Blackmagic doesn't AT ALL help us to have any 'affordable' options for lenses to use, so you HAVE to be a real CORPORATE PRO to afford renting/owning!!! And this alone, makes their (BMD) products even less appealing to Indie, and/or self-funded filmmakers.

Funny part is, they already KNOW THAT! So I guess, in the end, THEY know better what to do next , and I sometimes feel like I'm losing my precious time discussing this stuff over this forum here, trying to convince (whom??), the ALREADY CONVINCED Company to offer that so-desired Full Frame Pocket Cinema Camera to its HUNGRY CUSTOMERS?? Oh, please, Come On, I KNOW they WILL DELIVER, and they already know the approximate date TOO! And not only because of the reasons I've stated here, but because I KNOW there's many-many others indie cinematographers out there challenging BMD for the same reasons I did here, and telling them again and again the same things as I'm saying here, WAY BEFORE I was even born (so to speak! :P !!! )

One more thing to say (and to repeat for the LAST TIME here), as a BUDGET CINEMATOPGRAPHER, I could only afford 2 camera bodies/systems of lenses, from which, I would expect to have the ability to experiment with most (if not all) cinematic formats, sensor sizes (with some help of speed boosters of course), plus, last but not least, LENSES. LOTS of them! Mostly lenses I can buy, NOT RENT. Some of them pretty cheap, but some other of them at a logical BUDGET price. And let me explain myself what I mean by 'budget'.

Of course i have lenses that I've bought anywhere from 50-150 EU/USD/whateva, which will work fine (like the Italian Gentleman Carlo Macchiavello said), on S35 bodies, as in these bodies, these lenses won't "reveal" any of their weaknesses. And I'm totally fine using THOSE LENSES with my favourite BMPCC4K camera and a more than perfect Metabones Canon EF-BMPCC 4K CINE XL 0.64 Speed booster. So no need to "upgrade" to BMPCC 6k with that crappy LucAdapters "Magicbooster", for 'just' the sake of those 2 extra K's (and that crappy EF Mount ALSO!!!). SO, I'm TOTALLY HAPPY WITH THIS SETUP FOR NOW!

BUT, what I would consider as an 'artistic update' TO ME right now, (because I forgot to tell you, that along with these "cheap" FF lenses plus some 'basic ultra-wide angle' m4/3 ones plus a russian vintage zoom 16mm which find a SPECIFIC USE to my Pocket 4K, I ALSO HAVE the Zeiss-Pentax "Hollywood" Distagon 28mm f2, the Pentax K 50mm f1.2, and the Asahi Takumar 85mm f1.8, which are regarded by most, as the TOP-3 Vintage Glasses Pentax has EVER made, for which of course, I've paid way higher prices! And THESE lenses NEED a Full Frame sensor to SHOW their full potential!! I've seen both pics and videos shot with them in FF Sensors, and they just look freaking amazing!!! So I will use them with my NEW FF BMPCC 6K camera, along with my Kiev/Mamiya/Haselblad Medium Format Lenses + a KIPPON MF speed booster I'll be buying soon, AS SOON as the new FF BMPCC arrives!

Krishna Pada wrote:There is no need, yet, yes. :D

Let's look at BMD's camera line.

1. Pocket. People who like this form factor and since BMD doesn't provide a full-frame camera can easily migrate to Sony A7s3 with a Ninja 5 attached and can shoot in full-frame as well as Raw.

Just a quick answer to Krishna as to why I would NEVER go with a camera like Sony A7s3:
First, obviously I don't need AF (exercised my muscle memory enough to be good enough at MF/Follow Focus),
I also do not need IBIS (bought a helluva Steadicam-type, body-mount stabiliser for my BMPCC 4K, which is future-proof enough for a larger size/sensor camera!
AND, most obviously, THE PRICE!. Why pay Sony for features I don't need, ESPECIALLY WHEN I LOVE BRAW SO MUCH and I've already been "addicted" to BMD Colour Science, codec, and Davinci workflow?? Just think a little about it... ;)

Krishna Pada wrote:What BMD misses? A few "stupid" cinematographers who have "fallen" for the "Full-frame" and who have no regards towards tradition. Nothing much actually.

I take it as a compliment! I always liked to be the 'fallen angel' and the one who wouldn't care about 'S-35' tradition :P

Hare Krishna!! ;)
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostThu Sep 17, 2020 4:33 pm

FunkyPanos wrote:Just a quick answer to Krishna as to why I would NEVER go with a camera like Sony A7s3:
First, obviously I don't need AF (exercised my muscle memory enough to be good enough at MF/Follow Focus),
I also do not need IBIS (bought a helluva Steadicam-type, body-mount stabiliser for my BMPCC 4K, which is future-proof enough for a larger size/sensor camera!
AND, most obviously, THE PRICE!. Why pay Sony for features I don't need, ESPECIALLY WHEN I LOVE BRAW SO MUCH and I've already been "addicted" to BMD Colour Science, codec, and Davinci workflow?? Just think a little about it... ;)

Hare Krishna!! ;)


So far all AF cameras have worked perfectly with MF lenses, so no need to get tense about muscles. IBIS can also be set off and the camera can be used on a helluva steadycam type body mount stabiliser for further strengthening of the muscles. :D
Hmm, there are features that I don't need in my BMPCC, I don't use them. The timecode input for example or the Prores. Even the wifi. But they might be there for other users. I can't ask a camera company to custom build a camera just for me. It's not exactly a Subway sandwich, I can't do much about it.

The price point? Well, are you expecting a full-frame BM Pocket camera at the same price point of the 6K? :D

Hare Krishna ;)
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostThu Sep 17, 2020 5:31 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:As I understand it Z Cam uses ASICs to a larger extent than BMD.


ASICs are less expensive and less power hungry than FPGAs, but also less flexible.

The new Sony A7S III overheats at high frame rates. Again, I don't think BMD would ever release a camera that overheats.


BMD uses better cooling solutions. That isn't likely to change any time soon. And if it DOES change, it would be due to Sony upgrading the cooling solutions on its hybrids.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostThu Sep 17, 2020 11:25 pm

Krishna Pada wrote:So far all AF cameras have worked perfectly with MF lenses, so no need to get tense about muscles. IBIS can also be set off and the camera can be used on a helluva steadycam type body mount stabiliser for further strengthening of the muscles. :D
Hmm, there are features that I don't need in my BMPCC, I don't use them. The timecode input for example or the Prores. Even the wifi. But they might be there for other users. I can't ask a camera company to custom build a camera just for me. It's not exactly a Subway sandwich, I can't do much about it.

I think what I am asking from Blackmagic Design here, is obviously not to re-invent the wheel!!! This is technology they already have at their disposal, as proved by the Pocket 6k!! So I'm not asking anyone to custom-made any camera for me! ALL I ASK, and I think most indie filmmakers will agree with me on that, as an ABSOLUTELY LOGICAL AND DO-ABLE addition for the Blackmagic series, IS TO JUST MAKE A FULL FRAME VERSION OF THE POCKET 4K/6K!!!
NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Krishna Pada wrote:The price point? Well, are you expecting a full-frame BM Pocket camera at the same price point of the 6K? :D

HELL YEAH, the Pocket 6k's initial cost was WAY TOO UNJUSTIFIABLE (compared with the very fairly low priced Pocket 4K of course!)

SO, since they started changing the game with the Pocket 4k, SHOWING TO THE WORLD HOW TO RE-DEFINE THE INDIE CINEMATOGRAPHY GAME, waaaaay surpassing Panasonic's GH5 both in QUALITY AND PRICE, (and literally, KICKING THEM OUT of the Micro 4/3 game), I think IT'S ABOUT TIME to do the same EXACT thing again with their NEW FF BMPCC, and just SEND ANY SH1 IN THIS WORLD TO THE RE-CYCLE BIN FOREVER!!!

I'm pretty sure they can offer their new FF camera for something less than 2,000 euros, so for a total of less than 3,000 eu, ANY indie cinematographer can have the IDEAL starter camera body-pack they ever dreamed of!!
I know they can, THEY know they can, WE KNOW THEY CAN (and they WILL pretty soon deliver I'm sure!!!)
Last edited by FunkyPanos on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 12:02 am

FunkyPanos wrote:HELL YEAH, the Pocket 6k's initial cost was WAY TOO UNJUSTIFIABLE (compared with the very fairly low priced Pocket 4K of course!)


It would still have been a bargain at twice the price, to be honest. (Just don't tell that to Grant Petty ;))

I'm pretty sure they can offer their new FF camera for something less than 2,000 euros, so for a total of less than 3,000 eu, ANY indie cinematographer can have the IDEAL starter camera body-pack they ever dreamed of!!
I know they can, THEY know they can, WE KNOW THEY CAN (and they will pretty soon I'm sure!!!)


You're amusingly obsessed with the 135 format... The wise indie filmmakers looking for a starter camera go for the Pocket 4K. The financially well off indie filmmakers looking for starter cameras go for the 6K version.

Anyone who genuinely has a need for a 135, Vista Vision or medium format camera system can convince the production to rent one.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 12:23 am

Looking forward to a test between the UMP 12k(s-35) and some full-frame camera's(35mm).

I do see the benefit in using full-frame glass with the UMP12k looking at the MTF with respect to image height/width https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/MTF.aspx.

Lenses tend to be better in the centre than the edges.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 2:15 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:You're amusingly obsessed with the 135 format... The wise indie filmmakers looking for a starter camera go for the Pocket 4K. The financially well off indie filmmakers looking for starter cameras go for the 6K version.


OMG WHY some of you people here think I'm OBSESSED with 135 format??? Haven't I explained to you (about) 1,000,000 times already that ALL I CARE ABOUT, is the RIGHT ON EXPERIMENTATION by the Indie filmmaker with MOST cine-formats known to man??

I know this sounds like a political act of the type "EQUAL RIGHTS FOR FREEDOM TO ALL PEOPLE, REGARDLESS OF RACE, RELIGIONS, SEXUALITY, POLITICAL BELIEFS, etc", right? I know this sounds funny as a comparison (or maybe not so 'funny' for some 'serious'n'religiously traditional' S-35'ers here, but who cares...)

And because like you've said, I'm a "wise" indie filmmaker, I went with the Pocket 4K first!!!

Rakesh Malik wrote:The financially well off indie filmmakers looking for starter cameras go for the 6K version.

Even though I'm not exactly a "financially well off", the way you really are meaning that here, I can tell you that I DID have the financial option to choose between 4k and 6k, and after COUNTLESS HOURS of youtube reviews, google searches, and personal investigation I preferred ending-up with the 4K, just because it has 2 FREAKING AMAZING SPEEDBOOSTERS, AND the MFT MOUNT which allows for a PLETHORA OF LENS OPTIONS TO MOUNT!!! And of course, with the rest of my money, I bought many other cine basic accessories WHICH I WILL KEEP FOR LIFE!!!

So even if you were (let's say) my rich uncle from Qatar, and gave me as a gift a Pocket 6K, I would most certainly keep it BOXED, to sell it on eBay and get some additional accessories with that money instead. This is HOW FAILED THIS CAMERA WAS from its very beginning!!!

Now, IF they decide to put a V2 out, with ANOTHER MOUNT (like I've said before, just ANY short-flange distance one and not that OLD+RESTRICTIVE CANON EF!!), and plus, CONVINCE the "Doctor" of the speed boosters, Mr. Brian Caldwell, (who also happens to design for Metabones), to design a PROPER ONE for the 6k, then YES, MAYBE the 6k WOULD THEN be an option for "The financially well off indie filmmakers", like you like to call them!!!
Rakesh Malik wrote:Anyone who genuinely has a need for a 135, Vista Vision or medium format camera system can convince the production to rent one.

WHICH PRODUCTION are you talking about?? I'm an indie and self-funded filmmaker like I've said from the very beginning, and this is done NOT by need, BYT BY CHOICE (to remain GENUINELY INDEPENDENT!!!)

Like I've implied (directly or indirectly) to some of my previous posts...
Blackmagic was THE company to bring DEMOCRACY to Independent Filmmaking.
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION IS, they should be continuing to doing so, by ALSO OFFERING the FULL FRAME Option for their POCKET SERIES CAMERAS, to the Indie Filmmaker.

Because Full Frame is not a luxury for the few. It does NOT represent a "financial evolution", which will be only obtainable just from some "lucky ones" (who 'could' as well be the "sucker ones") who "can convince the production to rent one". PLEASE!!!
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 3:15 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:It would still have been a bargain at twice the price, to be honest. (Just don't tell that to Grant Petty ;))

Believe it or not, I have some kind of FAMILY feelings for that man!!! Every time I open the Blackmagicdesign.com site to get to this forum, I'm seeing his genuinely smiley face (but feels SO F**G REAL TO ME!!!) on the start page (in an announcement for ATEM something....) , and ALL I CAN SAY is I'm feeling something like, he is something like, my Australian Step-Father, who also happens to work for Blackmagic and who got me into Filmmaking (and this is truly a fact with HIS company!)....

And all I can say (and even FEEL from JUST watching his videos), is totally un-describe-able...and by risking of some of you even calling me "crazy" or somethin', I'll DARE and tell you the truth for what I'm really feeling by watching HIM in every aspect anyways....

I get that kind of family-member vibe, like he's trying to tell me... "I can't tell you much because you know my position Son, but Don't you worry, got Great news for ya... and your Indie family...Bros and Sis'... I'll have you covered pretty soon... just TRUST my words, WAIT a bit... and you'll see..."

OK because I know this might seem a bit funny to most of you, but I posted this for those few 'chosen ones', insightful enough to see that our secret dream from STRICTLY BMD (who raised us as filmmakers!) WILL EVENTUALLY COME TRUE, and who also feel (you guys/gals) like me, that Grant Petty IS your (step)/Father that inspired you to even START filmmaking, then lemme tell y'all...I've got GREAT (pre)Feelings for y'all... And I'M SURE you'll ALL see some day that I was right!! But don't call me a Prophet...just thank GRANT (or God!)

<3 <3
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 3:52 am

MishaEngel wrote:Looking forward to a test between the UMP 12k(s-35) and some full-frame camera's(35mm).

I do see the benefit in using full-frame glass with the UMP12k looking at the MTF with respect to image height/width https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/MTF.aspx.

Lenses tend to be better in the centre than the edges.

I totally agree with you regarding budget lenses! If you've got some more expensive ones though in your arsenal, I would suggest trying them on a real Full Frame Camera, OR...

OR, wouldn't it be nice if you could just stick with that new S-35 URSA, BUT ONLY if some decent speed-booster company would be able to offer a DECENT ENOUGH speed-booster for THAT FLAGSHIP camera?? It is their newest product, so they've GOT to have something similar than a Metabones 0.71 equivalent to use for that camera, to offer a decent FF Lens compatibility at least! Otherwise, just stick with expensive S-35 lenses if you can afford!! (I probably WOULD if I could!!)
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 4:50 am

FunkyPanos wrote:OMG WHY some of you people here think I'm OBSESSED with 135 format??? Haven't I explained to you (about) 1,000,000 times already that ALL I CARE ABOUT, is the RIGHT ON EXPERIMENTATION by the Indie filmmaker with MOST cine-formats known to man??


It might have something to do with the fact that you keep shouting about it, more or less literally, and follow your shouts with armchair architecting.

I know this sounds like a political act of the type "EQUAL RIGHTS FOR FREEDOM TO ALL PEOPLE, REGARDLESS OF RACE, RELIGIONS, SEXUALITY, POLITICAL BELIEFS, etc", right? I know this sounds funny as a comparison (or maybe not so 'funny' for some 'serious'n'religiously traditional' S-35'ers here, but who cares...)


No, it's because serious filmmakers at any level don't care nearly as much as you seem to about the camera's format, because the camera is the smallest part of the equation when it comes to designing the look of the film.

So even if you were (let's say) my rich uncle from Qatar, and gave me as a gift a Pocket 6K, I would most certainly keep it BOXED, to sell it on eBay and get some additional accessories with that money instead. This is HOW FAILED THIS CAMERA WAS from its very beginning!!!


That's utter nonsense. The Pocket 6K was a failure in the same way that the Ryzen 2 was... the back order queues weren't as long as for the Pocket 4K, but they were long, and the vast majority of the users are quite happy.

I also know from experience that the Pocket line doesn't NEED much rigging to be production ready. The claims that it does are a myth, usually from people who need their cameras to look impressive. Most indies don't need anywhere near as much rigging as they think they do.

Like I've implied (directly or indirectly) to some of my previous posts...
Blackmagic was THE company to bring DEMOCRACY to Independent Filmmaking.
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION IS, they should be continuing to doing so, by ALSO OFFERING the FULL FRAME Option for their POCKET SERIES CAMERAS, to the Indie Filmmaker.


Black Magic succeeded in that goal. Thanks to the Pocket 4K and 6K cameras and their frankly ridiculous prices, plus the fact that they come with a license to an application that, were it competitively priced, would cost $40,000, makes it pretty much the bee's knees when it comes to enabling pretty much anyone and their cat to get into professional filmmaking... even if they decide that they want to learn a Hollywood style workflow.

Because Full Frame is not a luxury for the few. It does NOT represent a "financial evolution", which will be only obtainable just from some "lucky ones" (who 'could' as well be the "sucker ones") who "can convince the production to rent one". PLEASE!!!


Clearly, you still don't understand. The reason I said that is that you can tell who does and who does not need full frame... because the ones who do don't complain, and the ones who don't complain a lot.

If you really WANT full frame, get a Sigma fp and a Video Assist, and Bob's your uncle. (Sorry Bob.) If you're interested in making movies, work on your craft -- especially your lighting, rather than obsessing over your camera's format.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 6:16 am

Lot's of big posts. But we don't have lots of people that know a lot in discussions. BM refuses to at least hire somebody who can converse with the engineers about what is actually possible (the definition of real) and set the record straighter, hence there is a lot of discord.

1. Actual cinematic framing even goes to IMAX 15perf size. There is an cinema first closer to 35mm still Suze, called vistavision or something.

2. The image can be a lot more vocal and delicate with these fuller 35mm formats, but you could design a lens for smaller formats to transfer such an image to a smaller format, but the sensor itself is going limit things. With speed boosters, they do the same, but people comment they are not as good

3. Currently looking at designing techniques to design and make chips at home in future. I've been on it for around 15 years. Conventional fab is very difficult at home without some advanced technologies, so not really great at the moment. My hopes for a little box to make at least single chips, or garage based setup, is not on for now. Though I could do atom or molecule level designs, I don't know if I could ever make it high volume enough to be practical, but there is a way which could a while into the future. My cheap solution from years back is to offer blank chips which can then be programmed with a ASIC design. FPGA, is a lonely bad technology. My own processor design aims to replace them. Another company already replaces very small FPGA, but their designs are too light weight for me.

I'm looking at maybe, just maybe, making some sort of chip with 3D printing using a number of design technologies I've come up with, but I have something better I want to do when enough money is available. Ability to do millions of devices in your basement. I'm also looking at my optical devices technology, but I don't have that sort of money to set up properly to protect and fight in the market place. Speeds of kilohertz (useful for simple 3D printed devices) to terahertz are envisaged. The sorts of stuff inbetween, talked about above, is not worth doing compared to that.

I've advised here, of a company they can contact to design a programmable alternative on the sensor chip itself, and save space, time, energy/heat and money, in the sensor company's fab.

3. The thing about large sensors having to run super hot, is bunkum. That was previously. Newer fab techniques, which micron had, lifted that blockage a lot, allowing video speeds on larger sensors, and 8k+ on phone ones, but the speed seems to have topped out. The 12k Samsung sensor is something like 15fps. The speed of the BM 12k is rather good. In discussions on the past, on the original pocket, most power seems to be used by the rest of the camera. The transfer of data, and even simple processing of data behind the pixel, such as conversion to digital for transfer, doesn't require too much energy for our purposes. However, there are limitations, and platues, which once reach, produce a lot of heat past that. This is called overclocking, and most processors we are familiar with overclock. The design question, is how to make it faster and not much energy with less overclocking. So, I hope to get to 5Ghz at 1mw. But 1Ghz should be doable. Very low energy chips are designed like this, and I am familiar with the design leaders who at 160nm was doing over 600mhz and several milliwatts many years ago.

4. Andrew Reid over at eoshd I think, posted he had been informed of a BM 6k fullframe camera, but the 12kb came out. So, I wonder if it was really a 16k fullframe that was originally heard of, and somebody thought the 1 was a mistake and told him 6k. That lines up with the 12k pixel size somewhat.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 6:37 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
FunkyPanos wrote:OMG WHY some of you people here think I'm OBSESSED with 135 format??? Haven't I explained to you (about) 1,000,000 times already that ALL I CARE ABOUT, is the RIGHT ON EXPERIMENTATION by the Indie filmmaker with MOST cine-formats known to man??


Rakesh Malik wrote:It might have something to do with the fact that you keep shouting about it, more or less literally, and follow your shouts with armchair architecting.


By "shouting" do you mean using capital (letters)? And what do you mean by "armchair architecting"? Please let me know what do you mean exactly and I'll respond to you appropriately.

I know this sounds like a political act of the type "EQUAL RIGHTS FOR FREEDOM TO ALL PEOPLE, REGARDLESS OF RACE, RELIGIONS, SEXUALITY, POLITICAL BELIEFS, etc", right? I know this sounds funny as a comparison (or maybe not so 'funny' for some 'serious'n'religiously traditional' S-35'ers here, but who cares...)


Rakesh Malik wrote:No, it's because serious filmmakers at any level don't care nearly as much as you seem to about the camera's format, because the camera is the smallest part of the equation when it comes to designing the look of the film.

Smallest part, right?? U sure?? What about if I told you that LENSES are the biggest part of the equation you're talking about?? And what about IF THOSE CAMERA BODIES (that you're talking about) DIDN'T SUPPORT WELL ENOUGH, OR NOT AT ALL, THOSE TYPE OF LENSES?? Wouldn't they obviously NOT BE THE RIGHT type of bodies FOR YOUR SPECIFIC FILMIC NEEDS anyways??!!!
So even if you were (let's say) my rich uncle from Qatar, and gave me as a gift a Pocket 6K, I would most certainly keep it BOXED, to sell it on eBay and get some additional accessories with that money instead. This is HOW FAILED THIS CAMERA WAS from its very beginning!!!


Rakesh Malik wrote:That's utter nonsense. The Pocket 6K was a failure in the same way that the Ryzen 2 was... the back order queues weren't as long as for the Pocket 4K, but they were long, and the vast majority of the users are quite happy.

Btw, what the heck is Risen 2?? Never heard about it! Hahahaha, so you JUDGE the (supposed) success of the Pocket 6k according to its back order queues?!! You just made my morning LOL'y dude!!! And I really mean that!! What about the "vast majority" of the 6k users, though?? ALL I'M SEEING FROM YouTube, Vimeo and OTHER [GOOGLE] AND {QUANT] (search engine of "Brave" Open-Source Browser) IS THAT THEY REGRETTED getting the 6K!! SO WHAT ABOUT THAT???

Rakesh Malik wrote:I also know from experience that the Pocket line doesn't NEED much rigging to be production ready. The claims that it does are a myth, usually from people who need their cameras to look impressive. Most indies don't need anywhere near as much rigging as they think they do.

What you are saying here is both TRUE and HALF-TRUE. BM Cameras NEED rigging, but indeed not AS MUCH AS THESE PAID "CINEMA"-"TO"-"GRAPHERS"/(slash) YOUTUBERS WANT YOU TO BELIEVE THEY DO!! (But to be honest, between you and me, to SOME degree, they really DO need a basic rigging!!!)

Like I've implied (directly or indirectly) to some of my previous posts...
Blackmagic was THE company to bring DEMOCRACY to Independent Filmmaking.
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION IS, they should be continuing to doing so, by ALSO OFFERING the FULL FRAME Option for their POCKET SERIES CAMERAS, to the Indie Filmmaker.


Rakesh Malik wrote:Black Magic succeeded in that goal. Thanks to the Pocket 4K and 6K cameras and their frankly ridiculous prices, plus the fact that they come with a license to an application that, were it competitively priced, would cost $40,000, makes it pretty much the bee's knees when it comes to enabling pretty much anyone and their cat to get into professional filmmaking... even if they decide that they want to learn a Hollywood style workflow.

I ONLY agree to the BMPCC 4K part that you've said my friend, NOT THE 6K!!! Of course, if you consider that the Davinci Resolve was a GIFT, to BOTH camera owners, then YES, both they SHOULD BE RESPECTFUL for what they've got for THAT RIDICULOUS money.... but being the "lucky" owner of a 4k instead of a 6k, and by ACTUALLY BUYING SOME LIFE-TIME ACCESSORIES FOR THAT MONEY DIFFERENCE (between those two), lemme tell you my friend.... I AM MORE than happy I chose the 4K instead of the 6k!!! You'll not see more than 5% difference in quality in these 2 cameras, AND THOSE ARE THE WORDS of a PAID Youtuber in order to support the 6k, obviously he couldn't have more to say, and BECAUSE HIS reviews were SCIENTIFICALLY BASED, HE OBVIOUSLY COULDN'T SAY MORE EVEN IF THEY PAID HIM TO DO SO.....

Because Full Frame is not a luxury for the few. It does NOT represent a "financial evolution", which will be only obtainable just from some "lucky ones" (who 'could' as well be the "sucker ones") who "can convince the production to rent one". PLEASE!!!


Rakesh Malik wrote:Clearly, you still don't understand. The reason I said that is that you can tell who does and who does not need full frame... because the ones who do don't complain, and the ones who don't complain a lot.

If you really WANT full frame, get a Sigma fp and a Video Assist, and Bob's your uncle. (Sorry Bob.) If you're interested in making movies, work on your craft -- especially your lighting, rather than obsessing over your camera's format.

To be honest, I didn't quite understand your English language, explaining who does and who doesn't need Full Frame regarding complaining or not complaining...... If you could repeat that part I might be able to say more...
But regardless of that, in your next sentence you're saying:

"If you really WANT full frame, get a Sigma fp and a Video Assist, and Bob's your uncle. (Sorry Bob.) If you're interested in making movies, work on your craft -- especially your lighting, rather than obsessing over your camera's format"

And I'm saying... Oh really? Should I really get a SIGMA FP AND A VIDEO ASSIST??? Dude, ARE YOU SERIOUS??? DO YOU REALLY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BlackMagic and ITS COLOUR SCIENCE-BIT DEPTH, BRAW CODEC ET CETERA??? Because obviously you don't know what you're talking about, please, set "Bob" free at least, and I'll let you explain anything you'll ever need in our next post. Till then...."Peace"!! Ohhhh and by the way.....SINCE YOU mentioned to "work on my craft--especially my lighting" (or should I say "enlightening"???).... I have more than enough lighting ALREADY that you could EVER imagine, able to light THE WHOLE WHITE HOUSE in DC, BABY!! (BUT, by a Chinese company of course, called "NANLiTE", but does it really matter? Sorry Mr.Trump, but Us Europeans, still get better deal prices on Chinese quality products like these, so?? Trust me, NANLiTE has given APUTURE a BAN from the light MARKET (just like Blackmagic 4k did to Panasonic GH5, SAME EXACT THING!!!
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 8:15 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Lot's of big posts. But we don't have lots of people that know a lot in discussions. BM refuses to at least hire somebody who can converse with the engineers about what is actually possible (the definition of real) and set the record straighter, hence there is a lot of discord.

You're totally right! "They" refuse to at least hire SOMEBODY to enlighten us, and set THEIR record straighter, this is true!! Hence, causing a lot of discord that we really do not deserve, as THEIR respectful customers!

Wayne Steven wrote:4. Andrew Reid over at eoshd I think, posted he had been informed of a BM 6k fullframe camera, but the 12kb came out. So, I wonder if it was really a 16k fullframe that was originally heard of, and somebody thought the 1 was a mistake and told him 6k. That lines up with the 12k pixel size somewhat.

Please learn some more info on that topic and enlighten us posting here again, because there is not any (perceivable at least!!) presence of any BM employee over here, SO PLEASE, at least let us learn any rumours that may occur within any of your trustworthy sources!!.

ALSO, what I wanted to say after reading your whole post to this thread (and I was going to make you more specific questions on some topics, which I finally decided NOT TO MAKE), because I'd rather protect YOU, your insight, your visions and your technical knowledge, which you would be better bother giving them to a brand new company that YOU create (and that would be more willing to experiment to producing new, innovative products, through new methods and technologies, rather than giving those to any "established ones" who most possibly would be more "cocky" to really hear your visions and fund your work, from which also you would be most possibly get paid less for your patented work!

So my suggestion is, if you are really that knowledgeable that you seem you are (as far as I can poorly judge, being not a techie person like I've said), but judging from the really inspiring things that you've written here, please do not bother posting in this forum again at all, and try to find a group of like-minded people to (maybe) form a new company together and possibly make more innovative products than those of the already "existing and established companies". And WE will be more than willing to support you, as your new customers, IF YOU REALLY give us what we really need, (which you will, and I'm pretty good at (educated) guessing!!)

My specific thread here, is for a perspective Full Frame "Pocket" Cinema Camera, but "pocket" is just a keyword, not a real modifier [like you've come to realise already!], so if you have any insight, or anything else you're planning to envision, and realise in the near future, please give me a Private Message (from here, or PM me your email) and we can further discuss about anything in the future. I LOVE SUPPORTING NEW PEOPLE AND NEW IDEAS ALWAYS, AT ANY RISK AND AT ANY [LOGICAL of course!], COST!

SO PLEASE KEEP IN TOUCH!!!
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 9:27 am

No, not to inform people about their stuff. For business reasons they need to keep secrets, and stop people getting off if things change. But to enlighten people about technology and standards, and what is right or possible, rather than people trying to argue stuff based on incorrect knowledge, ie, what they think, based on what somebody thinks happened.

Andrew has his source. I'm letting you know there is talk of it, and my hypothesis as to what might have happened with the 6k fullfrsne rumour, but it is still rumour, we don't know his accurate it was and is. Such a thing could have been cancelled and replaced.

Your a bit insightful about the whole don't let others not see the future and pay you less for your work thing. So, do you have experience?

Yes, it is a living testament that though the truth was told them, rather than contact, contract and invest, they ignore and miss. I leak limited things here out of the mountain, to give them opportunity to support and invest. But the sheer amount of costs involved these days, make it unaffordable to start up by myself, and I didn't win the $60 million (petty cash) last night. I had one guy who wanted to work with me, but was too self absorbed with a market leading technology even to preliminarily discuss and plan what, so I could line things up silrntly in the background. The other two people did leading stuff in their dominions, but hit lost in their own stuff. Pretty much, get money and hire somebody to do what you want, otherwise they are going think to much of themselves and loose track of the job, or think they should have more than thier fair share. Collaboration with dingbats doesn't really work for me. Dingbats being anybody beneath Steve Jobs, Elon Musk level. Those people could see too work ethic and morality.

So, what I mentioned is just incidental attached tinthe technology discussion about what is possible, and done stuff on what is possible. We always have people jumping on threads about things like this. I don't mean jumping into threads, I mean jumping on them to negatively squash them.

So, yes, is possible to do cheap fullframe micro even, is possible to do higher end pocket fullframe, and there is a little hope, as there was a rumour allegedly from a good source, according to Andrew. But as IBC virtual time is up, I sonehow doubt it would be this year.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 9:33 am

My advice, get a fullframe speed booster and stick it on a small format sensor head or phone, and hook up/program pro recording solution. Not ideal, but cheap.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 2:16 pm

FunkyPanos wrote:By "shouting" do you mean using capital (letters)? And what do you mean by "armchair architecting"? Please let me know what do you mean exactly and I'll respond to you appropriately.


Yes, constant overuse of capital letters is shouting.

Google the armchair architect. It's pretty comical.

Smallest part, right?? U sure?? What about if I told you that LENSES are the biggest part of the equation you're talking about?? And what about IF THOSE CAMERA BODIES (that you're talking about) DIDN'T SUPPORT WELL ENOUGH, OR NOT AT ALL, THOSE TYPE OF LENSES?? Wouldn't they obviously NOT BE THE RIGHT type of bodies FOR YOUR SPECIFIC FILMIC NEEDS anyways??!!!


Then I'd conclude that you're just pulling things out of a book, because none of that is a meaningful response to my point, which was about the look.

Btw, what the heck is Risen 2?? Never heard about it! Hahahaha, so you JUDGE the (supposed) success of the Pocket 6k according to its back order queues?!! You just made my morning LOL'y dude!!! And I really mean that!! What about the "vast majority" of the 6k users, though?? ALL I'M SEEING FROM YouTube, Vimeo and OTHER [GOOGLE] AND {QUANT] (search engine of "Brave" Open-Source Browser) IS THAT THEY REGRETTED getting the 6K!! SO WHAT ABOUT THAT???


I'd say that the malfunction is between the seat and the keyboard... but judging the "success" of a camera based on digipotatoes isn't exactly logical.

You'll not see more than 5% difference in quality in these 2 cameras, AND THOSE ARE THE WORDS of a PAID Youtuber in order to support the 6k, obviously he couldn't have more to say, and BECAUSE HIS reviews were SCIENTIFICALLY BASED, HE OBVIOUSLY COULDN'T SAY MORE EVEN IF THEY PAID HIM TO DO SO.....


I've worked with footage from both a 4K and 6K Pocket... so based on first hand experience, I don't believe you because you're wrong. The cameras weren't the point of failure, that I'm completely confident in.

And in any case, if I were buying a Pocket cinema camera right now, I'd go for the 6K version because the sensor size matches up better with the lenses I already have, so I'd save money on lenses.

And I'm saying... Oh really? Should I really get a SIGMA FP AND A VIDEO ASSIST??? Dude, ARE YOU SERIOUS??? DO YOU REALLY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BlackMagic and ITS COLOUR SCIENCE-BIT DEPTH, BRAW CODEC ET CETERA???


Yes, I do. And I'm more confident in Black Magic's decision to focus on quality rather than on marketing bullet points like full frame. I don't think that BMD made a mistake in sticking with Super 35 for the 12K either... because the lens costs would have vastly undermined the cost effectiveness of the camera.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 2:18 pm

FunkyPanos wrote:So my suggestion is, if you are really that knowledgeable that you seem you are (as far as I can poorly judge, being not a techie person like I've said), but judging from the really inspiring things that you've written here, please do not bother posting in this forum again at all, and try to find a group of like-minded people to (maybe) form a new company together and possibly make more innovative products than those of the already "existing and established companies". And WE will be more than willing to support you, as your new customers, IF YOU REALLY give us what we really need, (which you will, and I'm pretty good at (educated) guessing!!)


He's not what you think he is, but you're probably perfect for each other.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 4:22 pm

Rakesh, I know exactly enough about you from your articles on Redshark news.

Panos,

You can't ignore Rakesh, because he has points, we all do, but he's not in my pay grade. Unfortunately, I'm not reading this argument between you two, my life is diminished enough, so I can't offer right guidance.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 6:38 pm

I think BMD is looking at what RED is doing more than what Canon, Sony, Panasonic or Sigma with FF.
Things like continous AF on par with Panasonic would not surprise me in their next camera.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 3:49 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Rakesh, I know exactly enough about you from your articles on Redshark news.

Panos,

You can't ignore Rakesh, because he has points, we all do, but he's not in my pay grade.

I wasn't going to ignore anyone here Steven, but thank you for pointing that out to me, as I might be able to learn something new from Mr. Rakesh (likewise from anyone else over here), so I'm dropping my initial intense reactions to him, Steven, and also please excuse my initial "empathetic" tone (for a lack of a better word) towards him, as he might initially have seemed to me that he entered to this discussion full of negativity and cockiness, which of course I may be wrong, and we're very soon about to find out exactly what is real and what's not!!, as I'll be giving to us another chance to politely argue, like I try to do here with everyone (even if sometimes they talk like they "need" those tones to be....RISEN a bit!!!) But trust me, the LAST think I would want from my life is to treat ANYONE unfairly, because this ALWAYS comes back to me, to you, to anyone!!! So FAIRNESS and EQUAL TREATMENT TO ALL, are the keywords needed here!!!

And since you said you know Rakesh from his articles on Redshark news, I trust YOU Steven, because you seem like one of the few ones to offer real deep scientific knowledge over here, so I'll try my best to take a honest second chance and approach, so that we reach to some useful (to all of us here) conclusions with Mr Rakesh!!

Wayne Steven wrote:Unfortunately, I'm not reading this argument between you two, my life is diminished enough, so I can't offer right guidance.

Trust me, I would NEVER ask YOU to EVEN BOTHER reading our arguments here, because I CAN TRULY SENSE from your so gentle and wise tone of speaking and offering so freely your knowledge to this thread, that you're totally on a different Planet and level from most of us on anything here, and that you should be better spending your precious time continuing your tech researches, FOR THE COMMON GOOD OF ALL OF US artists, users, cinematographers, and camera companies. And I'm really saying and MEANING that with EVERY RESPECT you could ever imagine.

And trust me, you've ALREADY OFFERED TOO MUCH info to this thread, meaning that maybe, WE DO NOT EVEN DESERVE to know that much YET, as we need to learn to BEHAVE ourselves first, to prepare to accept such a deep knowledge that you're willing to offer. Something like an "initiation" (for lack of a better word) we need to get into first. What we need to learn most of us from here first, is basic communication skills and give respect to each others' opinions, keeping our MINDS OPEN FIRST, and THEN dropping the tones and the "egos" as low as possible.

Because a narrow minded person is like a blind person, and I don't feel like God-Gifted enough, to convert those people to Enlightenment (something that I'm sure YOU CAN, but like I've said before, IMHO you better DIDN'T, for your own safety, and FOR THE GOOD OF ALL OF US FINALLY (as like I've said, you could be spending your time more wisely creating new technology, rather than bothering replying to some common folks to a forum like this. And by saying COMMON, I mean that in regards to TECHNOLOGICAL EDUCATION. We may be the best in our jobs, like any type of Gifted Artists, Cinematographers, Audio guys, etc, but technologically, we are ILLITERATE (at least MOST of us here imho!)

So you are dismissed from our argument(s) here, my dear friend, you have ALREADY enlightened us ENOUGH with your valuable Input, and I'm sure we'll figure out a good way, how to end up into some useful to everybody conclusions, regarding the topic of this thread! And because a simple THANK YOU is not enough for you, I PROMISE, I will eventually end up making you PROUD that you even took some of your time to share your knowledge with us artists/folks!!

Take Great Care of Yourself!!!

PS: AS AN ENDING, I Could never find a better and more relevant way than this, to end our inspiring conversation!!! This is the wisdom I'd like to share with you, as a (small) exchange to the wisdom you've given us!!!
So there you go!!!....

ΠΑΣΑ ΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΗ, ΧΩΡΙΖΟΜΕΝΗ ΔΙΚΑΙΟΣΥΝΗΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΗΣ ΑΛΛΗΣ ΑΡΕΤΗΣ, ΠΑΝΟΥΡΓΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΟΥ ΣΟΦΙΑ ΛΟΓΙΖΕΤΑΙ.
(ΠΛΑΤΩΝ)

[EVERY SCIENCE, WHEN SEPARATED FROM JUSTICE AND THE REST OF VIRTUE, BECOMES CUNNING AND NOT WISDOM.]
(PLATON)
Last edited by FunkyPanos on Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 4:26 am

FunkyPanos wrote:
And since you said you know Rakesh from his articles on Redshark news, I trust YOU Steven, because you seem like one of the few ones to offer real deep scientific knowledge over here



Yes, he offers lots of deep scientific technobabble.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 4:37 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
FunkyPanos wrote:
And since you said you know Rakesh from his articles on Redshark news, I trust YOU Steven, because you seem like one of the few ones to offer real deep scientific knowledge over here



Yes, he offers lots of deep scientific technobabble.

Have you guys had any problems with each other in the past? I'm wondering why that empathy from you Rakesh. Please explain in what exactly you disagree with Steven, and you might Enlighten us rest common folks not to trust such a 'pseudo-prophet' (if Steven is really one). Please protect us before it's too late! (and I'm seriously meaning that!!)
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 4:58 am

FunkyPanos wrote:Have you guys had any problems with each other in the past? I'm wondering why that empathy from you Rakesh. Please explain in what exactly you disagree with Steven, and you might Enlighten us rest common folks not to trust such a 'pseudo-prophet' (if Steven is really one). Please protect us before it's too late! (and I'm seriously meaning that!!)


He's a legend in his own mind.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Asus ZenBook Pro Duo i9 Octacore/32GB/2060

Alienware M15 Hexacore i7/32GB/1070 Max-Q
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 5:13 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
FunkyPanos wrote:Have you guys had any problems with each other in the past? I'm wondering why that empathy from you Rakesh. Please explain in what exactly you disagree with Steven, and you might Enlighten us rest common folks not to trust such a 'pseudo-prophet' (if Steven is really one). Please protect us before it's too late! (and I'm seriously meaning that!!)


He's a legend in his own mind.

WOW what an impressive way to "end" this argument. I'm really impressed by you Rakesh now! You're now more than likely to be my next go-to Prophet ;)
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 8:26 am

FunkyPanos wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Rakesh, I know exactly enough about you from your articles on Redshark news.

Panos,

You can't ignore Rakesh, because he has points, we all do, but he's not in my pay grade.

I wasn't going to ignore anyone here Steven, but thank you for pointing that out to me, as I might be able to learn something new from Mr. Rakesh (likewise from anyone else over here), .. seemed to me that he entered to this discussion full of negativity and cockiness, which of course I may be wrong,
..

, the LAST think I would want from my life is to treat ANYONE unfairly, because this ALWAYS comes back to me, to you, to anyone!!! So FAIRNESS and EQUAL TREATMENT TO ALL, are the keywords needed here!!!

And since you said you know Rakesh from his articles on Redshark news, I trust YOU Steven, because you seem like one of the few ones to offer real deep scientific knowledge over here, so I'll try my best to take a honest second chance and approach, so that we reach to some useful (to all of us here) conclusions with Mr Rakesh!!

Wayne Steven wrote:Unfortunately, I'm not reading this argument between you two, my life is diminished enough, so I can't offer right guidance.

Trust me, I would NEVER ask YOU to EVEN BOTHER reading our arguments here, because I CAN TRULY SENSE from your so gentle and wise tone of speaking and offering so freely your knowledge to this thread, that you're totally on a different Planet and level from most of us on anything here, and that you should be better spending your precious time continuing your tech researches, FOR THE COMMON GOOD OF ALL OF US artists, users, cinematographers, and camera companies. And I'm really saying and MEANING that with EVERY RESPECT you could ever imagine.

And trust me, you've ALREADY OFFERED TOO MUCH info to this thread, meaning that maybe, WE DO NOT EVEN DESERVE to know that much YET, as we need to learn to BEHAVE ourselves first, to prepare to accept such a deep knowledge that you're willing to offer. Something like an "initiation" (for lack of a better word) we need to get into first. What we need to learn most of us from here first, is basic communication skills and give respect to each others' opinions, keeping our MINDS OPEN FIRST, and THEN dropping the tones and the "egos" as low as possible.

Because a narrow minded person is like a blind person, and I don't feel like God-Gifted enough, to convert those people to Enlightenment (something that I'm sure YOU CAN, but like I've said before, IMHO you better DIDN'T, for your own safety, and FOR THE GOOD OF ALL OF US FINALLY (as like I've said, you could be spending your time more wisely creating new technology, rather than bothering replying to some common folks to a forum like this. And by saying COMMON, I mean that in regards to TECHNOLOGICAL EDUCATION. We may be the best in our jobs, like any type of Gifted Artists, Cinematographers, Audio guys, etc, but technologically, we are ILLITERATE (at least MOST of us here imho!)

So you are dismissed from our argument(s) here, my dear friend, you have ALREADY enlightened us ENOUGH with your valuable Input, and I'm sure we'll figure out a good way, how to end up into some useful to everybody conclusions, regarding the topic of this thread! And because a simple THANK YOU is not enough for you, I PROMISE, I will eventually end up making you PROUD that you even took some of your time to share your knowledge with us artists/folks!!

Take Great Care of Yourself!!!

PS: AS AN ENDING, I Could never find a better and more relevant way than this, to end our inspiring conversation!!! This is the wisdom I'd like to share with you, as a (small) exchange to the wisdom you've given us!!!
So there you go!!!....

ΠΑΣΑ ΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΗ, ΧΩΡΙΖΟΜΕΝΗ ΔΙΚΑΙΟΣΥΝΗΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΗΣ ΑΛΛΗΣ ΑΡΕΤΗΣ, ΠΑΝΟΥΡΓΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΟΥ ΣΟΦΙΑ ΛΟΓΙΖΕΤΑΙ.
(ΠΛΑΤΩΝ)

[EVERY SCIENCE, WHEN SEPARATED FROM JUSTICE AND THE REST OF VIRTUE, BECOMES CUNNING AND NOT WISDOM.]
(PLATON)


Good attitude. I just meant it is tempting to ignore some people, but at times they have points.

I laughed so much reading the rest of the post, I had trouble following it.

No, people like that here, are as you suspect, it is that they do have elements of wisdom to learn, and to give peace a chance. Plus, I've been in your exact position many times, but completely right getting a kicking, so I can imagine their reaction reading that :). Good one!

A lot of people who get picked on here get picked on for right things, but have a lot of other things that turned up. But don't matter how purely and rightly you communicate with them, the mistaken stuff they have takes precedence. Since most of those aren't here, it's peaceful, otherwise you would have several people at the same time trying to squash what you are saying and babble on. Ussually after a week or two of constant barraging me they get confused and realise they were wrong. I finally blocked most of them.

There is two reasons to argue: The person is wrong, or the person arguing lacks enough knowledge to realise the person is right. Trying to lift them up to a higher plain of knowledge, doesn't work if it's about them. So, only certain people have the real knowledge or skill to push the cutting edge along, all the rest get their knowledge second or tenth hand etc without necessarily understanding what's behind it, why the knowledge is, part of that is why the knowledge could be, what is possible, that's how we come to discover and develop the knowledge first, the Anunnaki, the last time such people are proposed to rule completely. The problem happens when we people pushing the mistakes as right for personal reasons. I don't mind being wrong and others being right, it's just the wood choppers are ussually always wrong. Dismissive rather then inclusive. Yiu just can't be that way when trying to figure out knowledge, it's really bad. We get a lot of that here, so innovation is an uphill battle in this country limiting it many, many, many fold, as the ones who don't know claim to know. It reminds me of the famous Japanese sword Smith, I forget the name. He designed one of the ultimate sword techniques and was ridiculed by the other swordsmith's, but his swords were vastly superior. They didn't have a clue, they were just copying what somebody else figured out, passed down and was shown to them. It's the same today, people who claim knowledge and those who do the work developing knowledge, many of which are very similar for the level they are at. But it is easy to be proud possessing other's knowledge.

So, sometime people are just not co-operating, and you aren't wrong, so you just have to cut them off. As I said, he isn't too bad.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 8:35 am

FunkyPanos wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:
FunkyPanos wrote:Have you guys had any problems with each other in the past? I'm wondering why that empathy from you Rakesh. Please explain in what exactly you disagree with Steven, and you might Enlighten us rest common folks not to trust such a 'pseudo-prophet' (if Steven is really one). Please protect us before it's too late! (and I'm seriously meaning that!!)


He's a legend in his own mind.

WOW what an impressive way to "end" this argument. I'm really impressed by you Rakesh now! You're now more than likely to be my next go-to Prophet ;)


Yes, each of these guys are bigger in their own minds. But anybody with real experience in knowledge can see past that. As one author said in paraphrase, any society technologically advanced enough appears as magic (bable) but the opposite is true as to appear to be magical understanding from the other viewpoint. Fortunately, leading minds say the opposite. Don't agree with him too quickly, you'll find out later, the next X times you find yourself in this situation, not to take people too seriously.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 10:08 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:He's a legend in his own mind.

Panos Kappa wrote:WOW what an impressive way to "end" this argument. I'm really impressed by you Rakesh now! You're now more than likely to be my next go-to Prophet ;)


Wayne Steven wrote:Yes, each of these guys are bigger in their own minds. But anybody with real experience in knowledge can see past that. As one author said in paraphrase, any society technologically advanced enough appears as magic (bable) but the opposite is true as to appear to be magical understanding from the other viewpoint. Fortunately, leading minds say the opposite. Don't agree with him too quickly, you'll find out later, the next X times you find yourself in this situation, not to take people too seriously.

Hahahaha THAT'S WHY I LOVE YOU! But I Laughed MAO(ff) when you said
Wayne Steven wrote:Don't agree with him too quickly, you'll find out later, the next X times you find yourself in this situation, not to take people too seriously

I think you know already, I'm not taking (most) people ANY seriously, and you can easily understand which exactly kind of 'em I cannot (even If I was threatened TO DEATH, with a Japanese-sword in ma face): The Stereo-typical, Narrow-Minded (and most obviously, STRICTLY S-35ers) Ones (like most of our "dear" friends on this forum, who "supposedly" are the 'fake' advocates (or should I say the 'beneficiary' ones, from their "respected company") Lets do them the favour and let'em remain anonymous or pseudonymous as for now... but time and FACTS will eventually reveal their true identity(-ies) ;) ;)

Just stay on line to watch my next one... this will be a TIME-BOMB (and possibly "THE END" of this thread)....
Coming neXXXt... ;) JUST FOR YOU (and the ones who'll understand) ;) ;) Cause ANY beginning should have a HAPPY END, according to 'traditional Hollywood'ian rules', right? (or maybe not "so" right)? Lemme design the ending here people...CMM'ON!!!
Last edited by FunkyPanos on Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 11:41 am

OK, enough is enough and I've really come to my limits and I'm addressing to ALL OF YOU NOW, dear BLACKMAGIC TEAM, mostly moderators, employees, AND dear GRANT PETTY at this time!!

And whoever of you, either be forum moderators, respectful technicians, R&D Team, Customer Service/Support, or just WHOEVER of you, just has 'big balls enough', to forward THIS message to GRANT PETTY AS WELL, because I'm not "(black??)magically" allowed to do so, sending him a direct Private Message, as sending directly to HIM IS NOT allowed by ME, (and this is NOT called a real DEMOCRACY of course (at least in my country), as you like to advertise your company as 'constantly listening to its respected customers!)...!! So just PLEASE, forward this message to Grant Petty as well, to be able to just read it AT LEAST, (not expecting him to comment though, as I respect his time+position), and we're ALL good to go!!

Because, instead of YOU MODERATORS SENDING ME Private messages of the type "Continuing to insult others and use derogatory phrases will lead to a ban from the forums. This is your first and final warning.", you could do a WAY better job at literally "CONDUCTING" the technical conversation and the REAL DISCORD caused by the TECH-ILLITERATE MAJORITY ones in-here, who are the most of your Forum'ers!!!

I'm not going to further comment on that, but I will only need to kindly remind you, that this type of warning ("This is your first and final warning"), ONLY REMINDS ME OF FASCIST/NAZI'S-FASHIONED TACTICS OF WW2, TOTALLY BREACHING DEMOCRACY AND ITS FREE WILL OF SPEACH!!!

And So because most of you here will think that "that's enough already for your 'democracy BS** dude", so I'm getting STRAIGHT to my point here...

To be honest, I got really bad news for ya, dear Moderators+ respectful Mr.Grant Petty! The level of that 'BMD' forum, (maybe just this thread, I don't really know!), has gone WAY TOO LOW for a genuine customer of BMD to seriously follow, either being a REAL FAN , or an ADMIRER OF YOUR COMPANY, (and its associated technology that you're offering of course!!), BUT MORE SPECIFICALLY to US, 'aspiring' or 'budget', or even 'student' cinematographers, (whatever you'd really like to call us, we don't mind!!)

I bought your product, (BMPCC 4K), being a PROUD OWNER ALREADY with ALL its ab-so-lutely necessary (and some not even that necessary accessories (according to someone of your 'chosen-ones' "forum-designers" [as he laughingly called me an "arm-Chair Designer" LOL]), and I have been VERY HAPPY with your services, UPDATES AND SUPPORT that you're offering to us, PLUS the FREE Licence of DVR, AND A HUGE THANK YOU FOR THAT TOO!!,

But eventually, I needed to dive into this (very officially yours!!) FORUM as well, to get an insightful answer, as to WHETHER TO EXPECT, (OR NOT to expect), a Full Frame Version of your now-famous (and already CLASSIC!!) BMPCC4K-6K Series Cameras!!! Did I ask for TOO MUCH info?? If you say YES, then ok, I'll respect that and just back-off, and just wait for your news/announcements (of the dear Grant Petty) regarding the (possible) release of a Pocket FF 6k.

But if YOU BMD people, have NOT read my request already, and BECAUSE, I really like the philosophy of your designs, THIS IS WHY I would only go with YOUR FF Camera, instead of the many options I have in the market RIGHT NOW, and for which I have been already been advised/proposed to buy, by some of your "loyal" (SUPPOSEDLY!!) members of this forum, such as Sigma SP, or even Sony!! (if you just read the previous posts on this thread, you'll know exactly WHICH "LOYAL" members of your's I'm EXACTLY talking about!!

But because I LOVE your Colour Science, I LOVE your BRAW codec, also LOVE your 12Bit-Depth, even your sufficient (for the price!) Dynamic Range, AND your dual-NATIVE ISO, and of course, your lovely and versatile Micro 4/3 Mount, which allows us for most lenses possibilities to use than ever imagined before!!!
Also kicking-out the Panasonic GH-5 off the MFT market, was not a negligible fact, let's not forget, should we???!!!

AND ALL I've been asking you to do in this thread (sorry to repeat myself) was, DOING THE SAME EXACT THING as you did with the Pocket 4k, but with a Pocket Full Frame 6k at this time!!! Like I've said before it's an absolutely logical request and I'm SURE you've GOT the technology to do this, and that's not only ME requesting this format. And for the (same old-new) people who criticise me "being obsessed" with FF, all that I can say to them (and to you), is that THIS IS MORE than an aesthetics/or 'look' option, it is ALSO a practical option (regarding the quality FF Glass I own and an 'Indie Cinematographer' owns already, PLUS ALSO SOME perspective Medium Format Glasses+a Speedbooster I'm about/we're about to buy used (or new who knows?), after you release that FF Camera.

I've also told you the reasons why I consider the 6k a commercial failure, UNLESS you decide to put out a V2 of it, including another (short-flange-distance) Mount, so we could mount almost every modern APS-C lenses, PLUS, a PROPERLY DESIGNED SPEED BOOSTER, most probably from Mr. Brian Caldwell and Metabones, who have already proved themselves in the recent past with the so-beautiful (cine) EF-bmpcc 4k version, either 0.64x or 0.71, purely matter of preference.

But, instead of getting that info and tech-talk that I was expecting from your forum, ALL THAT I'VE GOT INSTEAD, was LOTS of (full of) Negativity posts, from some of your 'forum-classics' (should I say?), or maybe call them..."beneficiaries??"...or just maybe call them..."narrow-minded-fans", or just maybe some "traditional S-35 advocates" [being again narrow-minded "artists", because any real Artist shouldn't be 'stuck' to ANY specific format, but SHOULD be capable of experimenting with MOST (if not all) camera formats (and their associated lenses+speed boosters) known to man!!! At least THIS is my belief! Maybe not obtainable by [current] budget technology?? YOU TELL ME!! BUT DO TELL ME PLEASE!! DO NOT leave me to follow rumours, or 'false-Prophets' and such...This would only lead to discussing with some tech-uninformed people that would only lead to CONSUME MY PRECIOUS CREATIVE TIME AND ENDLESSLY TYPE (TO THIS FORUM) INSTEAD OF CREATING!!!

And Oh, I forgot to tell you... I'm coming from the Pro-Audio Industry basically, being not only a Songwriter/Arranger and Producer, but also an Audio Tech guy (mostly with mixing but also with enough mastering skills too, and I've been watching other Pro-Audio related forums in the past, for which I've seen WAY more SOLIDARITY and FELLOWSHIP between that community, rather than in here! And BMD is supposed to be one of the friendliest communities for the starting cinematographers. Sorry to inform you, that after I logged-in to your Forum for a while, all I've got was a constant headaches, feelings of negativity, and a time-consuming answering habit, that really dropped my creativity to the basement!!!
Getting from most of your forum 'posters' over here, nothing but pure negativity, cockiness, narrow-mindedness and a "stick to that S-35 tradition" kind of vibe!! But Arts DO Evolve, as well as Cinematography, which is officially now called as the "7th Art"!! Does that really matter by your community here? SO FAR, from both an Artistic and technical standpoint, I haven't seen that happening in your forum (in general) yet, BUT ONLY FROM A FEW!

My last wish for your company, is not to become like Apple, as it is NOW, under Tim Cook, but rather remain like it was with Steve Jobs, the founder (who could more directly be related to Grant Petty, THE MAN)
But because s**t happen, EVEN if a CEO doesn't necessarily RIP, that means that possibly bad decisions (within a company or its advisors, may have a negative impact to that (BMD) company. So this means that a constant listening to its customers' needs need to be done on a regular basis, as well as ALSO HIRING SOMEBODY TO PROPERLY AND SUFFICIENTLY CONDUCTING THIS COMPANY'S FORUM, WHICH IS NOW SEEMINGLY ABANDONED, AT LEAST AS IT IS RIGHT NOW.
WE KNOW YOU CAN. YOU KNOW YOU CAN. JUST ACT NOW, nothing too difficult for you!!!

ONE last thing... YOUR POCKET 4k is exactly what the iPhone 5 was for Apple. I hope BMD eventually one day, will be able to offer any cinematic format known to man, even Medium AND Large format!! But you already have Micro 4/3 AND S-35. So what is the most logical NEXT step forward?? Medium or Large Format, or maybe....Full Frame AT LEAST (FIRST)??
Just some food for thought!

Respectfully Yours,
Panos
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 5:26 pm

Some interesting thoughts in there, such as constant answering wasting creative time, been there.

But, I wish I had been here earlier. Rakesh has talent, he's not nothing, and is worthy of respect. He hasn't followed you around for years disrupting your threads and conversations, like some have done, so it's not time for less respect. Maybe less talking with somebody if they don't get it. But I have also been gently reminding you that you are the type of person we have had here in the past, who doesn't get things completely right either, who also get messages from moderators. So, it's worth working out what you both know, and put that knowledge together. You see. I take comfort in people like you and a few others around, but you all get caught up in the heat of the moment and you all get things wrong. So, the limited knowledge these people have is useful.

Also, using the NA word, they tend not to like that.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
bTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion accepted
cOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them
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Re: Full Frame BMPCC anytime soon?

PostSat Sep 19, 2020 6:38 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Some interesting thoughts in there, such as constant answering wasting creative time, been there.

But, I wish I had been here earlier. Rakesh has talent, he's not nothing, and is worthy of respect. He hasn't followed you around for years disrupting your threads and conversations, like some have done, so it's not time for less respect. Maybe less talking with somebody if they don't get it. But I have also been gently reminding you that you are the type of person we have had here in the past, who doesn't get things completely right either, who also get messages from moderators. So, it's worth working out what you both know, and put that knowledge together. You see. I take comfort in people like you and a few others around, but you all get caught up in the heat of the moment and you all get things wrong. So, the limited knowledge these people have is useful.

Also, using the NA word, they tend not to like that.

Sorry but I WAS READY to seriously answer to Rakesh and find some points to our arguments together, but after I read his disrespectful posts about you, I finally decided not to. AND THAT CONCLUDES MY POSTING HERE.
Whoever else, (like you maybe) wants to reach me, just use the PM Button. I'll only respond to serious ppl from now on, not just anybody. Got creative work to do that I've left behind! ENOUGH FROM ALL OF THAT!!
I'M DONE!!!
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