Blackmagic Forum

Just watched a video of the 12K in the hands of a customer and they talked about an issue when zooming in at 400%.



Interested in seeing how this works out.

Oh, and the amount of anxiety I had with the unboxing was a bit off the charts.

Guy immediately voids his warranty by drawing on the camera to cross out Blackmagic logos and the 12K. He shows a ton of disrespect and seems to have no regard for the camera with how he handled it. Plus, he complains about it being soft only to have screwed up changing the mount by not reading the directions. He probably messed up the back focus going from PL to EF because he probably didn't shim it correctly.

This is probably the last person Blackmagic wanted the camera in the hands of because he seems like a complete buffoon. I wouldn't trust this guys professional opinion based on the way he conducted himself in this video. Especially when he said what he said about PL mount. All the best glass is in PL Mount.

But, at least this does prove that the camera is shipping. I'll have to start saving up after I get the new computer.

when zooming in at 400%

smh.

12k zoomed in at 400%, that is 48K

Does anyone have a lens that resolves this ?

That's what you get, when you make a 2K camera out of it

One word - IDIOT!

Thank for 12K BRAW footage. If put on 4K timeline I don't see noise. If zoom just put NR 1-2 will remove most noise. (I'm glad BMD don't put de-noise from sensor) Please put some 8K 4K and Still BRAW and max out ISO 3200 BRAW thank.

I read some of the comments. One said that when you replace the PL for the EF mount you should not shim it afterwards. Is that true?

Another comment said that he probably set the timeline specs wrong. He replied thanks to the one so maybe that was part of the issue.

Have the enterprise drives suitable for recording been announced. I've gone through the supported media for the 12k as listed by BM, but haven't come across the drive recommendations for the new SSD recorder.

jallen0 wrote:I read some of the comments. One said that when you replace the PL for the EF mount you should not shim it afterwards. Is that true?

Another comment said that he probably set the timeline specs wrong. He replied thanks to the one so maybe that was part of the issue.

With my G2, when I go from EF to PL I add 0.1 shim as per the instructions provided by the Blackmagic manual. Then when switching from PL back to EF I remove that 0.1 shim. So, the different mounts do require different shims to achieve correct back focus. I commented on his video with regards to shimming and back focus. I also warned him that drawing on the camera over the logos likely voided his warranty.

Perhaps the most annoying video I’ve ever watched.

Regarding shimming for the 12k, the shims are the same for the PL and EF Mount (5. and .1), so he probably has it right, which is different than the G2.

Mark Wyatt wrote:Regarding shimming for the 12k, the shims are the same for the PL and EF Mount (5. and .1), so he probably has it right, which is different than the G2.

That's good to note. I'll definitely double check the manual to see if they mention that regarding the 12K. Either way, if I get the 12K I'll keep it in PL and only use PL glass.

MANUAL:

When attaching the PL, B4 or F mounts to URSA Mini Pro, a 0.10mm shim is added to the original 0.50mm and 0.10mm shims underneath the original EF mount. This shim and others are included in the Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro Shim Kit. Other thicknesses are included in the kit in case you need to re-shim your camera to suit PL lenses that may require slightly different clearances to maintain accurate focus marks.

They may want to add an asterisk for the 12K if it is different than previous models.

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:Have the enterprise drives suitable for recording been announced. I've gone through the supported media for the 12k as listed by BM, but haven't come across the drive recommendations for the new SSD recorder.

Travis, it's on page 27 of the latest manual. The SSD's recommended for the U2 drive (12K SSD Drive) are the Samsung 983 DCT U.2 MZ-QLB960NE (960GB) and the Samsung 983 DCT U.2 MZ-QLB1T9NE (1.92TB).

The Epic Light Media guy has actually grown on me... if you watch more than one of his videos, you quickly discover that he's largely playing a character and giving his YouTube channel a particular schtick by having fun. His actual, professional work is solid and speaks for itself.

With his cropping in - my first thought is that, yeah, he's obviously going to quickly bump into the limitations of his lens. Didn't really see anything that surprised me, but I am curious to see if the Blackmagic team directly comments on the noise he's unhappy about.

Hopefully they figure out what happened soon and share the info with the rest of us. I know in the promotional video the had the shot of the cruise ship where they started cropped in and then moved out to 12k, so hopefully that was a better demonstration of the ability to crop in on a 12 image.

The 'up and coming' Blackmagic shooters (like me) will want to see what happened. That way we can avoid the same mistake if we ever make it to the point where we have projects that pay us enough to afford to buy or rent the gear we would like to use.

The first thing I thought was that he had it set to project settings and not full res debayer.

Even with that questionable lens, if he’s shooting 12k q3, 1 or 0 he shouldn’t be getting those results. So sloppy, all for sub par views.

MrHotter wrote:Hopefully they figure out what happened soon and share the info with the rest of us. I know in the promotional video the had the shot of the cruise ship where they started cropped in and then moved out to 12k, so hopefully that was a better demonstration of the ability to crop in on a 12 image.

The 'up and coming' Blackmagic shooters (like me) will want to see what happened. That way we can avoid the same mistake if we ever make it to the point where we have projects that pay us enough to afford to buy or rent the gear we would like to use.

Your lens still needs to be up to resolving power to do this. Old manual Nikon glass etc won’t be anywhere near the same as the say an Otus.

If I were planning on doing a lot of heavy cropping I would choose accordingly.

Also, if you plan on doing that, you should be shooting Q1 or Q0 imo.

Someone should tell that guy, that the sweet spot of the 18-35mm isn't at T8.0 but somewhere between T2.8 and T4.0.
It can resolve 55 lpmm at its peak, while at T8.0 this goes down to ~45 lpmm

And he was filming BRAW 18:1

I actually emailed them. They’re checking their shims. Based on the picture they sent they did leave the 0.1mm shim needed for the PL mount in. So EF still remains 0.5 & 0.1 (or 0.6mm total) and you should add 0.1mm for the PL.

They are investigating everything. We’ll see if they figure it out.


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Robert Niessner wrote:Someone should tell that guy, that the sweet spot of the 18-35mm isn't at T8.0 but somewhere between T2.8 and T4.0.
It can resolve 55 lpmm at its peak, while at T8.0 this goes down to ~45 lpmm

And he was filming BRAW 18:1

Is that a rehoused 18-35? It absolutely is not it’s best at f8 you’re right.

Also... 18:1??????? Ugh.

You guys have to understand that Epic Light Media’s content is supposed to be silly and at time unprofessional. I personally think it’s very refreshing to not take yourself seriously in this day and age.

He still qualified his unboxing with “we have to do more tests” so we can all surely see more footage from them and others to help explain an issues that may arise.

Kholi Hicks wrote:

Robert Niessner wrote:Someone should tell that guy, that the sweet spot of the 18-35mm isn't at T8.0 but somewhere between T2.8 and T4.0.
It can resolve 55 lpmm at its peak, while at T8.0 this goes down to ~45 lpmm

And he was filming BRAW 18:1

Is that a rehoused 18-35? It absolutely is not it’s best at f8 you’re right.

Also... 18:1??????? Ugh.

Yeah that’s a rehoused 18-35. I looked at the other videos from them and found him talking about rehousing the Sigmas into Cine lenses as a great affordable option. I quickly gathered from the previous videos that this guy operates his way and no one else’s.


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timbutt2 wrote:I actually emailed them. They’re checking their shims. Based on the picture they sent they did leave the 0.1mm shim needed for the PL mount in. So EF still remains 0.5 & 0.1 (or 0.6mm total) and you should add 0.1mm for the PL.

Mine is also coming with an EF Mount. I will of course read the manual, and look for videos online, but is it obvious what position the shims fit prior to securing the EF mount on the camera?

jallen0 wrote:

timbutt2 wrote:I actually emailed them. They’re checking their shims. Based on the picture they sent they did leave the 0.1mm shim needed for the PL mount in. So EF still remains 0.5 & 0.1 (or 0.6mm total) and you should add 0.1mm for the PL.

Mine is also coming with an EF Mount. I will of course read the manual, and look for videos online, but is it obvious what position the shims fit prior to securing the EF mount on the camera?

Since I do this switch every so often. There are two shims in the EF mount of the G2. A Black 0.1mm and silver 0.5mm. The same will be true on the 12K. However, since the 12K ships with the PL Mount it will also have a silver 0.1mm that you should remove before attaching the EF Mount as the 0.1mm is only for the PL. add the 0.1mm when putting the PL on.


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I've been a fan of Epic Light Media since they started their channel. They have a lot of fun on the channel and a ton of it is tung in cheek. But they also produce great content and they have come across a great way to stand out on a platform that is heavily saturated as their growth curve shows. Don't beat them them up if this is the only video of theirs you have ever seen.

Having said that ya, I am pretty shocked at how they treated the poor camera. But that is also a reflection of how cheap the camera is. I guarantee you they wouldn't have done that with a Phantom. But wait until Linux Tech Tips starts tearing down one of the 6 12Ks they ordered to water cool it or what every they decide to do and you'll forget this abuse pretty quickly. All in all though this episode didn't bring as much info as their other videos but I expect a flood of videos from other creators shortly now that the cameras are landing in peoples hands..

lost_soul wrote:I've been a fan of Epic Light Media since they started their channel. They have a lot of fun on the channel and a ton of it is tung in cheek. But they also produce great content and they have come across a great way to stand out on a platform that is heavily saturated as their growth curve shows. Don't beat them them up if this is the only video of theirs you have ever seen.

Having said that ya, I am pretty shocked at how they treated the poor camera. But that is also a reflection of how cheap the camera is. I guarantee you they wouldn't have done that with a Phantom. But wait until Linux Tech Tips starts tearing down one of the 6 12Ks they ordered to water cool it or what every they decide to do and you'll forget this abuse pretty quickly. All in all though this episode didn't bring as much info as their other videos but I expect a flood of videos from other creators shortly now that the cameras are landing in peoples hands..

Yeah, his lighting tutorials are good. And, even the B-Roll vids were good. I do B-Roll my way since it’s what is natural for me. I don’t set out to do what he does every time with my B-Roll, but I’ve got a similar practice I’ve been doing for a decade plus.

Still I got the sense after watching a few of his videos that he does things very much his way.


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I have been watching his channel for the last several months. Mostly I have found it a good channel to pick up things I didn't;t know. However a video or two ago he was throwing around Matthews C-Stands off of roofs, and not the issue with the 12K camera. It's his equipment and he can do with it as he wants. It is not how I would every treat my equipment, I have worked too hard to purchase it, and I also have too much respect for myself to do that. If they want to do it, it's all on them.

I will say that it does make me question the rest of his channel however and that's a shame.

timbutt2 wrote:Since I do this switch every so often. There are two shims in the EF mount of the G2. A Black 0.1mm and silver 0.5mm. The same will be true on the 12K. However, since the 12K ships with the PL Mount it will also have a silver 0.1mm that you should remove before attaching the EF Mount as the 0.1mm is only for the PL. add the 0.1mm when putting the PL on.

Thank you!

Mark's post earlier regarding shimming was correct.

On the URSA Mini Pro 12K if you are changing between PL and EF you do not need to change shims.

To be honest on other URSA Mini Pro cameras, once you have added the 0.1 shim you can leave it in... The only reason why you would need to remove the 0.1 when changing back to EF is if you have a third party EF lens that won't hit infinity, or a cine EF lens that isn't hitting its marks. Otherwise leaving the 0.1 in when changing back to EF on a G1 or G2 is fine timbutt2.

Tim Schumann wrote:Mark's post earlier regarding shimming was correct.

On the URSA Mini Pro 12K if you are changing between PL and EF you do not need to change shims.

To be honest on other URSA Mini Pro cameras, once you have added the 0.1 shim you can leave it in... The only reason why you would need to remove the 0.1 when changing back to EF is if you have a third party EF lens that won't hit infinity, or a cine EF lens that isn't hitting its marks. Otherwise leaving the 0.1 in when changing back to EF on a G1 or G2 is fine timbutt2.

Oh sweet! That’s going to save me some time when changing mounts in the future. Thank you Tim for clarifying this.


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jallen0 wrote:Just watched a video of the 12K in the hands of a customer and they talked about an issue when zooming in at 400%.

Interested in seeing how this works out.

Oh, and the amount of anxiety I had with the unboxing was a bit off the charts.

I wonder why a camera might have zoom problems with something like that. I virtually was wondering if he would toss the camera in the grass. Let's see, bugs in the electronics, water sepage in the bog. I hate YouTube videos like that.

Anybody can report this guy to the local authorities, for environmental damage and litter?


Ok, watched it. What I expected. Maybe it needs 6 stops+ better noise rather than a few stops.

The colour is off like I noted before.

LukeNeumann wrote:Perhaps the most annoying video I’ve ever watched.

That one from the twits in the UK, about Braw wasn't the best, evem more mistaken.

I was curious to have a look at this file - I think considering this is a 300% punch in (3x crop of the sensor) at a compression ratio of 18:1 and with a little bit of sharpening, it holds up pretty well. I do wonder how doing something similar from any other camera with the same compression ratio, lens/settings, and punch in would look.

I didn't adjust any other settings so it's as shot (with Extended Video in the RAW tab as it came into Resolve).





These files above are 2K DCI since he seems to love 2K.

500-5000% blowups

https://www.flickr.com/gp/johnbrawley/o2D689

JB

jallen0 wrote:Just watched a video of the 12K in the hands of a customer and they talked about an issue when zooming in at 400%.

Interested in seeing how this works out.

Oh, and the amount of anxiety I had with the unboxing was a bit off the charts.

Wow this guy only just got the camera and he's already putting out important stuff for us all to see, unlike most of those that have had the camera for 2 whole months and hardly put out anything.
Really can't wait to see more stuff from him

jallen0 wrote:

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:Have the enterprise drives suitable for recording been announced. I've gone through the supported media for the 12k as listed by BM, but haven't come across the drive recommendations for the new SSD recorder.

Travis, it's on page 27 of the latest manual. The SSD's recommended for the U2 drive (12K SSD Drive) are the Samsung 983 DCT U.2 MZ-QLB960NE (960GB) and the Samsung 983 DCT U.2 MZ-QLB1T9NE (1.92TB).

Thanks for that jallen! Appreciate it.
Looking through those pages I can't seem to find how to record in the 5:1 setting at 12k 24p. Is there simply no media that can keep up with that setting? As the tested SSDs state that they can record at 8:1 50p. But don't mention the 5:1 setting. Any light shed on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

400% digital zoom should be 3k. Those shots look better than what I'm seeing here from YouTube. The shirt and the far off green grass still look a bit punchy, which seems to get worse as you try to raise colour. I've got American grass here is my lawn (quickly being overwhelmed unfortunately), have a little tiny but idea about the colours. I was starting to think it just looked like a modern JVC GY-HD10, an early CMOS hybrid colour pattern camera. Could do an lovely look, but punched the the top end saturation up, and terrible noise in low light, like People complain about in cdng, but in mpeg low bit rate. One of my broken sub $100 pocket cameras leaves it for dead. I was thinking of examining the noise in detail here to see if it looked the same. But, I would have to see dim light noise.

Yeah, John's blowups reminds me of the HD10. I'm so disappointed that JVC stopped doing this advanced stuff. An update of their cinema camera (500) model, would have been interesting. I was waiting for the 4k version of the hybrid consumer camera. They even had the consumer hybrid fullhd recording 4k, and promise of short time release, then Dead. Canon did a similar hybrid camera, and dropped the ball. Panasonic kept showing a hybrid camcorder, but never released it. Every one I wanted to buy, cancelled, in the last nearly 20 years. It's insane. They couldn't do 2kp50 on the pocket, as I like to film sports. They didn't do 4kp50 on the micro, as 4k was the future by then. They made the 4k pocket big, clunky, and reduced dynamic range (so they reckon, but extra stops were still there to be extracted), in the time where 8k could have been. This thing is big expensive, and despite the quibbles, I would be in if it was cheap and smaller. So, a fullframe pocket or next micro, I would like to see, as no other company is making a camera with the competencies I now require (things change over time). This year the micro update, or fullframe, never came, both of which were next logical step. Here we have something that is too far out there. Even if I was rich, the weight of it is going tear into my arms on a bad day in minutes, and there are a lot of people out there I think, who have similar issues. Not really around here, but it's about who you can sell the camera legitimately too. I love pocket cameras, but it's about how to fully control them to produce better images. BM could hunt the old Sanyo pocket camera team down, they did interesting stuff, even what I used to post them. They had a feel for a better camera for the price. Panasonic bought them out before they could do a 4k pocket, a real shame. Anyway, next camera please BM (don't worry, a lot of people are far behind me ussually. Like when I was one of the first people here on Maya. I thought great, I can do this or and that and the other, to find it was dead primitive, and I was already thinking they would have figured out Avatar level stuff, which is how I was thinking of designing stuff since the early 90's, late 80's. They can't even hit minimum quality levels of design for what can be done. Even Alexa didn't. Can you imagine if they released a 4k version back then at up to 60fps, would Red be a company charging as much as they do, with no extra resolution monkier to claim in marketing? They should be 8k or IMAX by now).

JohnThomasSmith wrote:Wow this guy only just got the camera and he's already putting out important stuff for us all to see, unlike most of those that have had the camera for 2 whole months and hardly put out anything.

The only responsibility from those we sent a camera early to was to provide us feedback so we could make any adjustments necessary/possible before shipping to customers, not posting footage from pre-release cameras/firmware.

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:

jallen0 wrote:

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:Have the enterprise drives suitable for recording been announced. I've gone through the supported media for the 12k as listed by BM, but haven't come across the drive recommendations for the new SSD recorder.

Travis, it's on page 27 of the latest manual. The SSD's recommended for the U2 drive (12K SSD Drive) are the Samsung 983 DCT U.2 MZ-QLB960NE (960GB) and the Samsung 983 DCT U.2 MZ-QLB1T9NE (1.92TB).

Thanks for that jallen! Appreciate it.
Looking through those pages I can't seem to find how to record in the 5:1 setting at 12k 24p. Is there simply no media that can keep up with that setting? As the tested SSDs state that they can record at 8:1 50p. But don't mention the 5:1 setting. Any light shed on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

The WD Ultrastar DC SNR630/640, Micron 7300 and Toshiba XD5 2.5" and a whole lot more should also meet the required specs.

Yannick Willox wrote:12k zoomed in at 400%, that is 48K

Does anyone have a lens that resolves this ?

No

Won't be any moiré problems then.

CaptainHook wrote:

JohnThomasSmith wrote:Wow this guy only just got the camera and he's already putting out important stuff for us all to see, unlike most of those that have had the camera for 2 whole months and hardly put out anything.

The only responsibility from those we sent a camera early to was to provide us feedback so we could make any adjustments necessary/possible before shipping to customers, not posting footage from pre-release cameras/firmware.

Ok cool

JohnThomasSmith wrote:

Wow this guy only just got the camera and he's already putting out important stuff for us all to see, unlike most of those that have had the camera for 2 whole months and hardly put out anything.
Really can't wait to see more stuff from him

That’s because those that had the pre-release cameras we’re TESTING and giving their feedback to BMD.

This guy is a gear reviewer.

They’re totally different purposes.

JB

I really feel for all manufacturers that invest an incredible amount of time, hard work and ingenuity into creating powerful products only to have someone with a perceived authority give an unfavorable review. In this case, these reviewers should have done some research and tested the camera before posting (even if it is just quick footage). I feel that the more you test and learn this 12k camera, the more powerful and surprising you realize it actually is.

Mark Wyatt wrote:I really feel for all manufacturers that invest an incredible amount of time, hard work and ingenuity into creating powerful products only to have someone with a perceived authority give a unfavorable review. In this case, these reviewers should have done some research and tested the camera before posting (even if it is just quick footage). I feel that the more you test and learn this 12k camera, the more powerful and surprising you realize it actually is.

Amen!

Mark Wyatt wrote:I really feel for all manufacturers that invest an incredible amount of time, hard work and ingenuity into creating powerful products only to have someone with a perceived authority give an unfavorable review. In this case, these reviewers should have done some research and tested the camera before posting (even if it is just quick footage). I feel that the more you test and learn this 12k camera, the more powerful and surprising you realize it actually is.

Agreed completely. There's a lot of CA on that lens. I'm curious to know what his aperture was. Also his settings too.

Mark Wyatt wrote:I really feel for all manufacturers that invest an incredible amount of time, hard work and ingenuity into creating powerful products only to have someone with a perceived authority give an unfavorable review. In this case, these reviewers should have done some research and tested the camera before posting (even if it is just quick footage). I feel that the more you test and learn this 12k camera, the more powerful and surprising you realize it actually is.

Well manufacturers are in business to make money. Guss what he bought one. ELM thought they could drive traffic to their channel by getting out front of every one else with a review of the 12K. Guess what it worked. If you think any one is going to wait until they have a couple of years experience and shot a couple of feature films with a piece of kit before putting up a Youtube video then you have no idea how Youtube works. If your waiting for the Roger Deakins deep dive on this camera Youtube might not be the place to look.

Note Suwanchote wrote:

Mark Wyatt wrote:I really feel for all manufacturers that invest an incredible amount of time, hard work and ingenuity into creating powerful products only to have someone with a perceived authority give an unfavorable review. In this case, these reviewers should have done some research and tested the camera before posting (even if it is just quick footage). I feel that the more you test and learn this 12k camera, the more powerful and surprising you realize it actually is.

Agreed completely. There's a lot of CA on that lens. I'm curious to know what his aperture was. Also his settings too.

F8 didn't somebody say? Yeah, the aberrations were surprising.

Wayne Steven wrote:

Note Suwanchote wrote:

Mark Wyatt wrote:I really feel for all manufacturers that invest an incredible amount of time, hard work and ingenuity into creating powerful products only to have someone with a perceived authority give an unfavorable review. In this case, these reviewers should have done some research and tested the camera before posting (even if it is just quick footage). I feel that the more you test and learn this 12k camera, the more powerful and surprising you realize it actually is.

Agreed completely. There's a lot of CA on that lens. I'm curious to know what his aperture was. Also his settings too.

F8 didn't somebody say? Yeah, the aberrations were surprising.

I've shot with the 18-35mm on the 12K, not at f8 though, and it does not look like that. There's something off there.

lost_soul wrote:

Mark Wyatt wrote:I really feel for all manufacturers that invest an incredible amount of time, hard work and ingenuity into creating powerful products only to have someone with a perceived authority give an unfavorable review. In this case, these reviewers should have done some research and tested the camera before posting (even if it is just quick footage). I feel that the more you test and learn this 12k camera, the more powerful and surprising you realize it actually is.

Well manufacturers are in business to make money. Guss what he bought one. ELM thought they could drive traffic to their channel by getting out front of every one else with a review of the 12K. Guess what it worked. If you think any one is going to wait until they have a couple of years experience and shot a couple of feature films with a piece of kit before putting up a Youtube video then you have no idea how Youtube works. If your waiting for the Roger Deakins deep dive on this camera Youtube might not be the place to look.

I'm thinking it's a site and YouTube channel to avoid. Plus now hotrod video might have so much interest it blows out the delivery times mentioned?

I hate YouTube. I mean it might be fun to do something but to act like this fur a serious living. What next, chuck a Red 8k weapon in and see if it floats on water?