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4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:22 pm
by jbeech
While it strikes me an Ursa with decent glass would be best for hopping out of a news truck and going to work, is it an absolute given you can't really use a Pocket Camera, instead? Put another way, if the budget isn't $12-15k for a shoulder mount camera, but more like $3-4000 for a hand held for the run-and-gun world, is it simply inadvisable to try and make a 4K Pocket Cam do the job?

If the answer is a 4K Pocket Cam is a bad idea, then I'm inclined to get a 3-chip Sony Handicam, or similar, because it falls to hand nicely. Meaning it's easy to hold similar to how I hold a shoulder camera (making it easy to track moving subjects). Added to which, it's complete with lens and gyro stabilization. The point being, these camcorders work pretty well.

Physically more like a DSLR, the Pocket Cam needs accessories to make it work for run-and-gun. Is it worth trying? And with what accessories? Epecially the lens, gyro stabilized preferably because I'm not a world class cameraman and need the help.

Note; reason I am asking is I plan to use 3 of the 4KPC for a YouTube studio switched with an ATEM Mini and would like to stay within the BM ecosystem. So is anybody achieving pretty good results filming action sports with a Pocket Cam? I want to record fast moving model airplanes like this one? Doable, or bad idea?


Beyond a lens, what else? Cage, grip, battery, etc.?
--
Many thanks,
John Beech

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:45 am
by Nick Heydon
I use my P4k for run'n'gun all the time. Depending on the shoot, it's either with the Sigma 18-35 or Canon 24-105. Both work extremely well for my purposes anyway.

I have the camera somewhat rigged up, with the v-mount on the back. With the extra weight, it's easy to keep stable handheld. As it is, I can pull it out the bag and shoot within seconds. To make things easier though, I also have a monitor on a Nato rail. I have have that on the camera either to the side, or on top within another 10 seconds and I'm ready to shoot.

The monitor isn't necessary in my setup, but it does make certain angles easier.

It takes a little while to get the camera rigged and weighted to suit your needs, but I've found a great setup for me. I also have a UM4.6k (non-pro) and prefer shooting with the pocket setup.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:33 am
by Ellory Yu
I don't have a 4K PC but use the 6K PC for run-n-gun as well as walk-around. I own the Sigma 18-35 but it lacks the stabilization needed. You can use a gimbal but it can get in the way at times so I use the gimbal sparingly - when I really a much smoother shot. What has been working for me in a run-n-gun to take some street action shots is with a Canon 17-55mm or the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 lens, both has OIS. For long lens, the Canon 70-300mm f/4 USM IS II is good to have. Since most of my r-n-g are in daylight or well lit, they work just fine. Again, I'm using them as I need them for certain and specific things, the same with all my other lenses.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:26 am
by robedge
jbeech wrote:Note; reason I am asking is I plan to use 3 of the 4KPC for a YouTube studio switched with an ATEM Mini and would like to stay within the BM ecosystem. So is anybody achieving pretty good results filming action sports with a Pocket Cam? I want to record fast moving model airplanes like this one? Doable, or bad idea?


I watched the video and looked at a couple of others on the Vimeo channel. If you know, what camera setup is being used to make these videos?

Offhand, my first choice would be to mount the camera on a high quality fluid head and a tripod. Getting it right would take some practice, but the camera movements aren’t extreme. One significant advantage is that you wouldn’t have to hold the weight of the camera and lens. For this option, one of the Pocket 4K cameras that you’re purchasing would work, although you’d have to pay attention to apparent depth of field.

Handheld, my choice would be a camera and lens with advanced image stabilisation and autofocus. That means another brand of camera.

Not my business, but I’m curious about the choice of Vimeo over YouTube for this kind of content.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:13 pm
by jbeech
Rob,
1. Vimeo vs. YouTube - not certain. Wasn't my decision . . . and that was an iPhone, regarding which, it's my opinion if you give it enough light, the results are impressive.

2. Regarding tripods - I've worked with one but honestly, it's difficult to impossible to follow the action. Especially when he pulls some vertical maneuver and then you're toast trying to keep up. note, the lfights aren't really very long, maybe 4-5 minutes so handholding is OK - I did it for years with a 2/3" Betacam which with lens large Anton Bauer pack went over 12lbs - not fun but doable.

3. I encountered a neat YouTube video whilst researching where the fellow Matteo Bertoli, has thought out his needs and assembled quite an impressive rig - the title is: My BMPCC4K Run and Gun RIG TOUR! if you'd like to watch it.

Unfortunately, it's also my experience, that mass certainly helps - but - it's also pretty easy to minimize visible shake when you're shooting wide. Unfortunately, it's when you combine a massive rig with a longer lens that things change. Me? I give him 3-minutes to gain a newfound appreciation for gyro stabilization (meaning his buttery clips would be anything but).

Anyway, I come back to a gyro stabilized lens. I shoot Nikon VR lenses for still work. Don't mind spending for glass. Don't even need a lot of throw, 35-70 or maybe 100 would be all I'd need - but - I really think stabilization is a must. Please, anybody with experience?

What about the native M4/3 Lumix G Vario 35-100 f2.8 lens, anybody used it and shot longish?

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:18 pm
by Jim Simon
jbeech wrote:the Pocket Cam needs accessories to make it work for run-and-gun. Is it worth trying?


Absolutely!

All you need are these:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... ra_4k.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... ml/reviews

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... o_kit.html

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:09 am
by James Harkness
Canon 17-55 f2.8 with IS. Game changer

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:57 pm
by jbeech
Will this require an adapter (speed booster)? Will this effectively result in it being a 34-11 when mounted on the BMPCC, or do I have this wrong way around? Also, how does it stack up with Lumix G X Vario 12-35mm f/2.8 II ASPH. POWER O.I.S. Lens expressly designed for the M4/3?

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:25 pm
by Craig Seeman
We may need to define "run and gun" since I do think it has slightly different meanings to different people.

For me, it's shooting in ENG like circumstances. In many (but not all) of those circumstances, things may be happening in rapidly changing uncontrolled circumstances. Some ENG shoots do allow some control, In uncontrolled circumstances I have
    no time to change lenses
    can't afford the risk of a battery change at an inopportune time
    must be handheld for versatile camera positioning
    focusing must be lighting fast
    the lens must wide zoom range since action may be close one moment and much further the next
    stabilization helps

I have a Panasonic MFT 12-35. The stabilization is pretty good but the range is relatively short and f2.8 on MFT not particularly shallow if need. I have Sigma 17-50 on MB Speedbooster with pretty good stabilization and f2.8 at APS-C size can be a bit shallower if needed. I use the Tilta side handle in which a good NPF 970 battery can give me around 3 hours give or take.

For me though, the Pocket 4K is awkward though so I end up using Sony PXW-Z90v because of it's 12x(or18x)zoom (roughly equal to 29mm-522mm 35mm equivalent I believe), reliable autofocus, stabilization. At about f4 for a 1" sensor, it's not going to have a shallow DOF. It's not going to have the dynamic range of the Pocket as well.

If I were doing a well planed ENG shoot with interviews on the street and subjects within a controlled range and predictable shorter distance that the Pocket might be the better camera.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:41 pm
by rick.lang
[quote="jbeech"]Will this require an adapter (speed booster)? Will this effectively result in it being a 34-11 when mounted on the BMPCC...?/quote]

Watch your language, John. You have the BMPCC4K, ‘crop 1.9x, not the BMPCC, ‘crop 2.88x, which was released about 2013.

If you mount it with an mFT->EF-S smart adapter, it will have a field of view like a 32-105mm lens on a 135 film camera. The lens at 17mm barely covers the 1.6x crop on an AFS-C, so something like a Metabones SpeedBooster Ultra 0.71x focal reducer won’t work for the higher resolutions available using the complete sensor area of the BMPCC4K.

On the original BMPCC, the 17-55mm plus SpeedBooster image coverage works at 18mm for that smaller sensor with a field of view of about 35mm to 112mm compared to 135 film camera.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:33 pm
by Ryan Earl
James Harkness wrote:Canon 17-55 f2.8 with IS. Game changer


I've also used the Canon 55-250 IS which is under $200. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _6_IS.html

Handheld is not shaky with it on a C100, the movements look like it's on the shoulder. If you stick to a cheaper lens like this it frees up cash for the Pocket 6K.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:25 pm
by Denny Smith
John, the Olympus 12-100 f/4 has a grand VR/IS setup, and works best of any of the MFT native lenses. Gives pleanty of reach, but requires a focus charge when zoomed. Next would be the Panasonic-Leuca 12-60, which holds focus when zoomed, and was designed with video shooting in mind. Also has excellent IS/VR system and a step less, and near silent iris.
Cheers

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:44 pm
by jbeech
I wrote 34-11 but meant 24-70mm with respect to the Lumix G X Vario 12-35mm. . . oops!
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Ellory Yu, regarding 4K verses 6K, I've never had to deliver anything beyond SD in my life. Yes, I can see the benefit of capture in 4K or 6K because of what it opens the door to with respect to the edit bay (pan and scan, fix horizon issues, etc.).

However, I see what 'I' produce going straight to YouTube versus Netflix. Will I live long enough for widespread 4K delivery? Dunno. I'm all ears as long as you realize where I'm coming from, e.g. I'm perfectly willing to be educated - but - I am also realistic about my product and my final customer.

Honestly, 2/3 of the nation is using DSL (at best) for streaming. Many cannot even get that - sigh. Does Musk and his StarLink project change this, materially? Dunno. Hope so. Will the 'family friendly' data providers ever hook up everybody to fiber? I'm not holding my breath. Especially considering there's AT&T fiber 190' from me and thus far, they have refused to offer me the service. Yup, fiber is a lousy 200 feet away (sob).

Principal reason "I" want at least one 4K or 6K BMPCC is for the higher frame rate for slo-mo, or am I missing something? So I believe the 6K has an even larger sensor than the 4K, which I can certainly see of some use. However, is a Super 35 format aspect ratio useful for 'my' productions, especially delivered as HD? Nope, I don't think so . . . what am I missing?
**********************************************************************************

Nick Lang wrote in part . . . "Watch your language and Metabones SpeedBooster Ultra 0.71x won't work"

1. Instead of 0.71x perhaps the 0.64x?

2. Regarding "you have BMPCC4K" . . . actually I don't have 'anything' but a pocket full of money, however the difference in price for 'one' of the units to be a 6K vs. 4K is as a practical matter, nearly immaterial. However, I 'am' thinking 4K for the remaining three units - unless - there's a compelling argument to be made for equipping my YouTube studio with four of the BMPCC 6K units, instead of 3+1 (4K and a 6K). Anyway, if it's not obvious, I'm open to the argument and can budget the difference (speaking to this, specifically, I'd very much appreciate your insight, Nick).

Recapping, at present the thinking is the one unit rigged for run and gun, the other three will live on magic arms in the studio switched with an ATEM Mini ISO - cooking show type format with one camera on a tripod (the one I snatch for field work of the model airplane variety). That, plus the other three rigged for overhead and off to the side views of whatever the talent is doing on the counter top/work surface area. Bog standard stuff!

Further to this; I don't honestly anticipate 'ever' working in a) widescreen (Super 35) or b) delivering anything but HD - and this, expressly for YouTube. Note, I once delivered to 4:3 DVD but never HD. The latter (HD), was 'just' coming into vogue when I departed production for other things.

In any case, delivering media as Blue Ray (HD DVD) is simply not in the cards because why would anybody want to screw around with physical media these days? Certainly not me because I don't want to deal with 'any' physical inventory if I can help it!

More to the point; unlike perhaps younger folks within this craft, I'm not a 'filmmaker' or anything fancy. Instead, I'm strictly a videographer (specifically, run of the mill video producer sort, e.g. how-to videos, corporate, interviews, events, etc.). Brutal honestly; Netflix is not realistically in the cards for me. So the plan is for YouTube for the foreseeable future, and this has me thinking capture at the high resolution but render for HD delivery - thoughts?
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Craig Seeman wrote in part with respect to the Panasonic MFT . . . "The stabilization is pretty good but the range is relatively short and f2.8 on MFT not particularly shallow"

1. Regarding shallow, honestly, for my type of outdoor ENG type field work, I just figure to either a) use a variable ND and stop it down to separate the subject from the background 'if' it's needed, or b) simply use a matte box to add ND filters (and for interviews, specifically, when adding 1/4 black is a nice addition for talent).

2. Regarding Sony PXW-Z90V . . . this is exactly the unit i was thinking of using - but - honestly, i see value to staying within the BM ecosystem (matching file types), e.g. with the field camera matching the studio use cameras. I'm fairly described as old and dumb and want to make/keep things as easy as possible!

This is the very point of my asking whether rigging for run-and-gun is prudent with a BMPCC 4K.
**********************************************************************************

Ryan Earl . . . regarding that Cannon IS lens suggestion, I appreciate the thoughts vice the budget to save for a 6K - but - I'd much rather pony up for decent glass with constant stop throughout the focal range from the get go. That, and there's another lens for MFT with more throw available, the Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 35-100mm f/2.8 II POWER O.I.S. Lens (which I believe is the equivalent of 70-200 and MUCH longer than anything I'd ever want to hand hold).
**********************************************************************************

Denny Smith wrote in part regarding . . . Panasonic-Leuca 12-60

Thanks for the suggestions. Have you got a part or model number to go with this? Any chance it's the same lens I'm considering already?
Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 12-35mm f/2.8 II ASPH. POWER O.I.S. Lens - or -
Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 35-100mm f/2.8 II POWER O.I.S. Lens
. . . you said Leica, not Lumix, and 12-60, but . . .

**********************************************************************************

Everybody, right now I'm inclined to equip all four cameras with Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 12-35mm f/2.8 II ASPH. POWER O.I.S. Lens because it lets me zoom as needed within the studio and with either variable ND or matte box work in the field whilst making nice pictures. I 'think' this lens works with the 4K, but maybe not with the larger 6K sensor - but - I'm not 100% certain with respect to the latter. Actually, I'm hoping Nick Lang will step in with an ELI5 (explain like I'm 5) and gently bring me further up to speed.

Finally, lens and camera wise, I am open to further suggestions. Right now it looks like qty 3) 4K units and qty 1) 6K unit, but maybe all four will be 4K. Honestly, I might even see the wisdom of ponying up for one URSA - but - don't really want to spend so much for this and the lens to outfit it. Not when I'm just trying to step up my game from an iPhone as demonstrated in the model airplane video.

If you're still with me after this missive, many, many thanks!

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:46 pm
by markr041
I second the recommendation for the Olympus 12-100 lens - it has the best stabilization of any mft lens, a great range, and super sharp. None of the Panasonic lenses have really good optical stabilization; the Panasonic/Leica 12-60 is a good lens, but its stabilization is inferior (not bad, but definitely worse than the Olympus).

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:00 am
by jbeech
Denny Smith and markr41 recommended this lens - Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-100mm f/4 IS PRO Lens and in second place, the Panasonic Leica DG Vario-Elmarit 12-60mm f/2.8-4 ASPH. POWER O.I.S. Lens - both are within the budget, thank you!

With respect to the Olympus, I note it's f4 through the range. Nice. Many thanks.

With respect to the Leica, I note it's variable f2.8-4 versus f2.8 throughout for the Lumix lenses mentioned above. Also, one of you said something about not holding focus during th zoom, or did I misunderstand? While this can be an issue, in honesty, I don't really zoom much, if at all during a shot. E.g. I tend to frame how I want it and live with it rather than risk losing focus.

Anyway, I am all ears comparing this Leica to the Lumix. Leica is obviously a 'better' name, and the slight increase in price is probably a reflection of this perception, but is it better in fact? Dunno. Further thoughts other than the Olympus which I'd never even considered. is this going to be the best lens for the outdoor shooting of the models?
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Good grief, I'm an idiot! The 6K has an EF mount. Done deal for me because I have two Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8 L USM Lens which I've had more than 20 years! I can use both in studio. Added to it, I have one IS lens, Canon EF 16-35mm f/4L IS USM perfect for run and gun . . . duh! Honestly, EF mount is a game changer because I have lenses in the cabinet. Very sorry to have bothered everybody.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:14 am
by mark.sze
Denny Smith wrote:... Next would be the Panasonic-Leica 12-60, which holds focus when zoomed, and was designed with video shooting in mind. Also has excellent IS/VR system and a step less, and near silent iris.
Cheers


I use the 12-60 on the Pocket 4K and, as Denny mentioned above, it has good stabilisation and is silent. It appears parfocal but haven't tested it thoroughly. I find the 12-60mm range on MFT to be fairly flexible.

I don't use any other native zooms, so can't provide any comparisons.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:47 pm
by pnguyen720
James Harkness wrote:Canon 17-55 f2.8 with IS. Game changer


This is the lens to get for run-n-gun, IMO.

You'll get vignetting with a speedbooster though so just know that you need to zoom in some in post.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:37 pm
by jbeech
I am still in shock at not realizing the 6K has an EF mount. No way I opt for a 4K with an MFT mount. Not when I can use existing glass. Here's one more stupid question, having eyeball a lot of videos for equipping a BMPCC (all of them from original through6K because they're the same DSLR-ish layout), I realized there are lots of guys using shoulder mounts, rails, and a viewfinder on the side configured similar to what I'm used to, e.g. a 2/3" Sony Betacam. I know I can do the job of tracking the models with my camera perched on my shoulder, so here's my question; since B4 to EF adapters are readily available, I think I can make good use my Canon HJ11x4.7B IRSD HD lens. It's pretty wide and has a 2X extender. Thoughts? What am I missing?

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:02 pm
by Ellory Yu
jbeech wrote:Ellory Yu, regarding 4K verses 6K, I've never had to deliver anything beyond SD in my life. Yes, I can see the benefit of capture in 4K or 6K because of what it opens the door to with respect to the edit bay (pan and scan, fix horizon issues, etc.).

However, I see what 'I' produce going straight to YouTube versus Netflix. Will I live long enough for widespread 4K delivery? Dunno. I'm all ears as long as you realize where I'm coming from, e.g. I'm perfectly willing to be educated - but - I am also realistic about my product and my final customer.

Honestly, 2/3 of the nation is using DSL (at best) for streaming. Many cannot even get that - sigh. Does Musk and his StarLink project change this, materially? Dunno. Hope so. Will the 'family friendly' data providers ever hook up everybody to fiber? I'm not holding my breath. Especially considering there's AT&T fiber 190' from me and thus far, they have refused to offer me the service. Yup, fiber is a lousy 200 feet away (sob).

Principal reason "I" want at least one 4K or 6K BMPCC is for the higher frame rate for slo-mo, or am I missing something? So I believe the 6K has an even larger sensor than the 4K, which I can certainly see of some use. However, is a Super 35 format aspect ratio useful for 'my' productions, especially delivered as HD? Nope, I don't think so . . . what am I missing?

John, you're not missing anything. Yes the sensor is larger but my application in need of a 6K is different from your needs which a 4K may be more than enough - just saying coz I dunno too. What I was pointing out was the lenses I used with it when I need on-lens stabilization during a r-n-g without having a gimbal or stabilizer. The camera (6K, 4K) that was irrelevant in my response. And yes, you will need a SB adapter to use with the MFT mount which may have some pluses being a +1 stop and wider angle of view. That's really it.

Staying with native MFT, I agree with some of the poster on the Olympus 12-100 lens. I used to have it when I had the original BMPCC and loved it.

6K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun? EF Lens Choice

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:42 pm
by markr041
Now that we are talking BMPCC6K for rng, which is a crop sensor, I highly recommend considering the EF S 15-85mm lens. It has optical stabilization that is one of Canon's best (it varies across lenses), and has obviously a great range. It is the second-most expensive EF S lens that Canon makes, and it has excellent optics. It is relatively small because it does not have to cover a full frame, which is useless for the BMPCC6K (yeah, I Know, vignetting). It obviously is not constant aperture, but does start at f3.5 at the wide end. Besides optics, rng means good stabilization and a wide-range zoom - you need to be ready for anything and cannot change lenses on the spot. A 15-35mm lens is just too small a range, and with modern dual-ISO sensors like on the BMPCC6K, one needs fast lenses less. And if one really needs a fast lens, f4 will not cut it. So, the EF S 15-85 and a fast prime (with IS: EF 24 and 28 f2.8, EF 35 f2.0 - take your choice)

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:02 am
by Ryan Earl
jbeech wrote:I am still in shock at not realizing the 6K has an EF mount. No way I opt for a 4K with an MFT mount. Not when I can use existing glass. Here's one more stupid question, having eyeball a lot of videos for equipping a BMPCC (all of them from original through6K because they're the same DSLR-ish layout), I realized there are lots of guys using shoulder mounts, rails, and a viewfinder on the side configured similar to what I'm used to, e.g. a 2/3" Sony Betacam. I know I can do the job of tracking the models with my camera perched on my shoulder, so here's my question; since B4 to EF adapters are readily available, I think I can make good use my Canon HJ11x4.7B IRSD HD lens. It's pretty wide and has a 2X extender. Thoughts? What am I missing?
If you are starting to rig the camera up with an evf, it’s hard to beat the ergonomics of the URSA Mini with EVF, battery plate, shoulder mount. A used kit might work to get the price down.

That said, lately I’ve used the pocket 4k manual lenses and a wireless follow focus quite a bit. It is definitely lighter, but the ergonomics without a shoulder mount and evf work better on a monopod for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:56 am
by Denny Smith
No worries John, you are not wasting anyone’s time, it has been an interesting discussion.
AT&T fiber 190' from me and thus far, they have refused to offer me the service. Yup, fiber is a lousy 200 feet away (sob).

Sounds familiar, I have n ATT fiber line going down the highway with the pole and a drop tap sitting at the end of my access road. I also can not get ATT to pull a feed to the house. They are using the fiber line as a trunk connection linking the small communities I live between, and to connect us to the outside world. Not holding my breath waiting for a drop to the house. :roll:
Cheers

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:41 am
by Uli Plank
OMG, we are living next to a small rural village in a so-called 'emerging nation'. Getting a single fibre line connected to our house 600m from the next access point in that small village was no problem at all.
But then, this is Asia.

P.S. Please excuse the OT.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:35 am
by Denny Smith
Yes, we are behind most of the world trying to maintain a dying infrastructure. We do have a cable TV feed thst gives us the next best thing to fiber, and fast internet connection with a commercial account on thst service.
Cheers

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:45 pm
by Jamie LeJeune
Denny Smith wrote:John, the Olympus 12-100 f/4 has a grand VR/IS setup, and works best of any of the MFT native lenses. Gives pleanty of reach, but requires a focus charge when zoomed. Next would be the Panasonic-Leuca 12-60, which holds focus when zoomed, and was designed with video shooting in mind. Also has excellent IS/VR system and a step less, and near silent iris.
Cheers
I second the Olympus 12 - 100mm if shooting "run + gun" on the 4K Pocket. I've used it extensively for that purpose on the 4K Pocket, and it by far the best lens option for that use case IMHO.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:54 am
by jbeech
I'm totally out of the market for the 4K with MFT and instead, I am going to opt for the 6K for equipping the YouTube studio. This 100% because I own EF glass. I can easily pay the difference in unit cost just in glass savings! Meanwhile . . .

Ryan Earl said in part . . . "If you are starting to rig the camera (6K) up with an evf, it’s hard to beat the ergonomics of the URSA Mini with EVF, battery plate, shoulder mount."

And this is a valid point. Frankly, I'm in danger of being carried away and blowing a large-ish hole in my budget for the one field camera (if I go from a 6K to and URSA). And this is partly because I am comfortable with a shoulder mounted camera rig from when I used Betacam and partly because I've got a nice Canon HD B-4 lens sitting in the cabinet, which I'd love to put to use. Thing is, it can stay in the cabinet, e.g. it's not like I have to use it. Meanwhile, I've been using an iPhone successfully to capture the model airplanes. That doesn't cost me anything! However, I want to step up my game and - as usual - means I'm in danger of going overboard.

Please, anybody/everybody - if - you've reviewed the very brief video of the model airplane in my earlier post at the beginning of this thread, that's a regularly gig, which I want to tackle with something other than an iPhone (which, honestly, look at the footage, it's not bad).

So please, because I've never so much as held a BMPCC loaded for Run-and-Gun, would you presuppose you could comfortably do the job handholding it with an accessory 5-7" screen and shotgun and be successful? Flights last 4-5 minutes. Some will go longer 7-9 minutes but the vast majority are 4-5 minutes. Added to which, cutaways of crowd reactions, etc. mean I can save mistakes in the edit bay. Anyway, loaded for bear, I figure a 6K is going to go maybe 3-4 pounds, am I wrong? An URSA will go nearly 10 pounds but it's on my shoulder - big difference as we all know.

Note; that model airplane makes wildly fast and unpredictable moves! Trust me when I say it's harder than it looks. I know I can do it shoulder mounted with no stabilizer and obtain decent results because I've done it, but equipping an URSA means forking over close to $10k, or 2-3X what equipping one really nice 6K would set me back. It's the whole hand-holding thing with the 6K that has me concerned.

FYI, this is why i started this whole tread off with a discussion of stabilized lenses. That, and I'm not a filmmaker, I'm a videographer. Moreover, I've no illusions about my skills, which are if we're being honest, strictly average. Either it requires gyros to help me compensate for jitters, or greater mass.

What says the brain trust of experienced BMPCC cinematographers reading this; in your opinion will it work with a 6K, or am I just going to have to bite the bullet and opt for one URSA plus three 6K units?

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:47 am
by Howard Roll
Blackmagic cameras make a pretty picture, for shooting a small, fast moving subject like this, I'd be much happier with something like a Canon G60 camcorder. Sometimes the DSLR style is the right tool, sometimes it's not. Given the subject matter, OIS, DPAF, and servo zoom are going to be more useful than Braw and some DR.

Good Luck

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:50 am
by Ryan Earl
Ergonomically and with AF on Canon lenses I like the C100 / 200 for this kind of thing.

It’s possible to use the 6K and mimic the iPhone by taking a Small HD Focus 7 and mount the monitor under the camera, so you have a hand on the monitor and a hand on the lens. Switching batteries often but keeping it minimal.

I have the Wooden Camera Ultra arm for this kind of setup and use it with the nato clamps, with a nato rail on the monitor and camera.

You can also use Ikan’s accessories which would be cross compatible in the studio for a shoulder rig. The Ikan battery v-mount plate with 15mm rods, cage and PD Movie wireless follow focus are pretty lightweight. In the past I’ve put the shoulder pad on my shoulder, then jammed the 15mm rods into it. So with the monitor and accessories you’re adding under $1,500 to the camera.

I still like EVF for tracking moving objects and the Zacuto EVFs are pretty nice, especially Gratical.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:58 am
by Ellory Yu
Howard Roll wrote:Blackmagic cameras make a pretty picture, for shooting a small, fast moving subject like this, I'd be much happier with something like a Canon G60 camcorder. Sometimes the DSLR style is the right tool, sometimes it's not. Given the subject matter, OIS, DPAF, and servo zoom are going to be more useful than Braw and some DR.

Good Luck

John, I agree with Howard. I used to fly R/C planes in fact still have one left that was retired when my oldest son move out 10+ years ago, still hanging from the ceiling as a memorabilia. Those buggers are fast and to catch them in frame can only best be done hand held. But then you have to be very quick and agile to catch the shot and not be bothered fiddling things, worry if the IS is good enough, issues with AF that can sometimes be apparent, and putting on filter density for the shot. Although there are so many good things about the Pockets and the URSA, it's made to serve better when you can really plan your shot (cinematographer speaking here) :) and walk it through the scene. I don't even think a DSLR will be right for it too but maybe the Nikon Z series... it's kindda interesting. So agreeing with Howard, something like a camcorder that has a shoulder mount form factor and ergonomics, with servo zoom, and a built-in EVF may be a more prudent direction.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:40 am
by Uli Plank
Think Sony FX9. Of course, a bit pricey for a hobby, but the best AF around.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:01 am
by Jamie LeJeune
jbeech wrote: So please, because I've never so much as held a BMPCC loaded for Run-and-Gun, would you presuppose you could comfortably do the job handholding it with an accessory 5-7" screen and shotgun and be successful?
Among the camera options offered by BMD, the 4K Pocket plus Olympus 12 - 100mm with its excellent image stabilization is your best bet if you want something affordable that you can handhold for the shots you describe. And I'd go with the lightest weight 5" daylight viewable monitor that you can find, and no camera cage or other heavy rigging that would add weight.

The 6K + EF mount lenses is going to be heavier, and no EF lens that I've ever found comes close to the quality of the stabilization that the Olympus delivers.

Just my 2 cents having shot handheld with both setups.

And, as others have noted, if you're looking beyond the BMD cameras, you might be better served by some type of all in one handycam with a zoom rocker and an integrated lens.

The 4K Pocket + lens is easily rentable via sites like Borrowlenses or Sharegrid, so I'd suggest renting it to see for yourself before making the purchase.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:24 pm
by Ryan Earl
Jamie LeJeune wrote:
jbeech wrote: So please, because I've never so much as held a BMPCC loaded for Run-and-Gun, would you presuppose you could comfortably do the job handholding it with an accessory 5-7" screen and shotgun and be successful?
Among the camera options offered by BMD, the 4K Pocket plus Olympus 12 - 100mm with its excellent image stabilization is your best bet if you want something affordable that you can handhold for the shots you describe. And I'd go with the lightest weight 5" daylight viewable monitor that you can find, and no camera cage or other heavy rigging that would add weight.

The 6K + EF mount lenses is going to be heavier, and no EF lens that I've ever found comes close to the quality of the stabilization that the Olympus delivers.

Just my 2 cents having shot handheld with both setups.

And, as others have noted, if you're looking beyond the BMD cameras, you might be better served by some type of all in one handycam with a zoom rocker and an integrated lens.

The 4K Pocket + lens is easily rentable via sites like Borrowlenses or Sharegrid, so I'd suggest renting it to see for yourself before making the purchase.
If he is already buying (3) Pocket 6K and is already using an iPhone, then I would suggest the Canon 18-55 IS 3.5 because it is so light over the heavier 16-35mm F4 or other pro option.

You can at least take it along with the iPhone and shoot off of the back of the camera’s lcd. I find that once white balance is set I’m usually tweaking exposure looking at the meter which is usually still visible in bright light. The focus peaking and zebras stay visible too.

Batteries would be my issue, I like buying tool pouches from Home Depot or Lowe’s that have multiple pockets. I will stick ND in one and a v mount in another for handheld and run a wire up to the camera and use my left hip. All day stuff I use a monopod, and monopods are light enough to lift around and use like a faux steadicam if you collapse it.

I also like the Zacuto marauder and have used it since the first pocket cam.

Lots of options to be quick and dirty with a pocket cam and still outperform an iPhone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:38 pm
by jbeech
Been a few days - not ignoring - mulling. Where's my head?

Advice regarding a camcorder format being more suitable for the field is also my natural inclination because I've delivered good flying model footage using Sony BVW-300 with a Canon lens as well as with a handheld PD150 camcorder (both SD, of course). The point being, I 'know' what I'll get in the way of footage using something with a viewfinder held up to my eye. It's what I don't know, which worries me. This is why advice from guys suggesting a camcorder instead of rigging a BMPCC falls on friendly ears.

So here's where my head is right now . . . I'm thinking two camera purchases: the four for a YouTube studio, plus a field camera. This, versus four cameras for the studio, plus accoutrements required to rig one for field use. Like I said, I'm still mulling this over. And while it's not a huge amount of money either way, meaning it's unlikely I delay much longer, I do wonder this (if you'll will forgive a brief bit of birdwalking). While 4K is a thing, I'm seeing HD deliverable into the foreseeable future (even 360p-YouTube is viable for a reason). Am I wrong?

My point? Absent Musk's StarLink being a game changer, and pearl clutching aside regarding red-state children being shortchanged in online schooling due to poor broadband penetration during the pandemic, I'm not holding my breath on AT&T ever installing fiber in America. I'm mostly informed by 15 years in an Orlando suburb (not exactly the corn fields of Nebraska - real flyover country) with the sad knowledge there's fiber a mere 200' away and AT&T has zero intention of 'ever' hooking me up.

Considering I'm over 60 (so another 15 years means I'll then be staring down 80 years old with ever dwindling hopes of broadband) is it your opinion, I'll 'ever' need deliverables in 4K? Reason I ask is studio capture in HD (where panning and scanning within a 4K image is unlikely to ever be necessary) while reserving 4K for field capture (where that technique 'can' be a useful for stabilizing footage delivered in HD) is winning the argument.

Not to be macabre (just that your viewpoint changes as you age), but I would very welcome your viewpoint regarding capturing everything in 4K, no matter what.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:46 am
by Ellory Yu
John, for the foreseeable future, YouTube will be very well delivering 480 and I doubt that will go away in the next 5 years - which for published content, is a long time. Personally, I have never bothered with 4K on YT, and 1080p is more than enough for what I like to watch - mostly tutorial type content.

Where a 4K or higher res helps when delivery is in 1080p or lower is with the post processing, when there is so real estate to pay with for reframing things. Other than that it really becomes a self preference. I doubt anyone on YT will come back to you and ask you to deliver a 4K footage for their pleasure watching RC planes. I think you're better of thinking about frame rate than resolution at this junction, like shooting at 60 fps or higher frame rate to reduce motion blur and have sharper moving motion pictures, and being able to slow them down where needed.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:21 pm
by jbeech
Ellory Yu . . . you've answered what I was fishing around for but having trouble putting into words. I've been under no illusion regarding the model airplane content ever being valuable in the sense of either being broadcast or being picked up for streaming by a service such that 4K was of any importance. And I'm aware the biggest use for 'me' of a higher resolution image is for panning and scanning within the image. With regard to slow motion, 120fps at 1080i with the 4K is amazing in my humble opinion. Note; Jamie LeJune's advice regarding the Olympus MFT being better for stabilized lenses than EF lenses guides me toward buying a 4K versus 6K unit. Screwing on 1/64 or 1/8 of ND won't be an issue versus rotating a wheel and mini-XLR is suitable for an ME66. I've decided? Yes, I'm definitely going to try rigging one 4K for this purpose (field use). Worst come to worse I re-purpose it for the studio where these are going anyway. I'll just hold off buying the rest for a little while until I decide how many I actually need after deciding vice field use. Especially as it's not like I was ever going to buy something else for the studio because the 4K and 6K offer a tally through HDMI. Many thanks to everyone who generously read my long winded questions and responded.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:49 am
by bobosola
I went from a "run & gun" GH5 to a BMPCC4K. I don't regret the choice at all as I much prefer the BM colours and general feel of the output, but I found the BMPCC4k to be less capable for quick hand-held action shots for these reasons:
  • I found an EVF easier to use than the BMPCC4K screen to keep track of moving targets. Plus you get the additional point of stability with it being pressed against your head, so pan/tilt movements are easier to achieve smoothly.
  • A camera with IBIS + OIS produces much better stabilised output than just OIS. So you may find that even good OIS by itself is not quite good enough for you (though the stabilisation tools in Resolve can often patch things up acceptably at the cost of some crop in)
  • The BMPCC4k autofocus is fairly rudimentary (no tracking etc.) but I work around that by focusing manually and choosing a suitable depth of field
I had the Pana Leica 12-60 and sold it for the Olympus 12-100 f/4 after reading the many opinions expressed on this forum and elsewhere. The Pana is a great lens and was much smaller, lighter and easier to hold. But the manual focus is very tricky to get right as it uses a fly-by-wire system which spins round endlessly with little tactile feedback - this makes nailing focus in one go hard to achieve. The manual focus ring on the Olympus is wonderfully positive and quick by comparison. Not sure if the OIS on the Olympus 12-100 is better than the Pana Leica's, but it's certainly pretty decent at at short range. But for anything long you'll need some support as I've found that its OIS cannot prevent the shakes when hand-held and zoomed in. I find a monopod is a good compromise for giving just enough support while retaining flexibility of movement. And I can confirm the Olympus 12-100 is not parfocal, so you usually need to re-focus after zooming in or out, if that is important to you.

Re 4K or HD for YouTube: I find shooting and uploading in 4K results in a better quality output (less blocky peripheral motion artefacts and better edge definition) when it has been downscaled from 4K to HD by YouTube as opposed to uploading the footage in HD directly. This is particularly the case for GoPro action stuff but seems to often hold true generally. You probably won't see the improvement in quality when viewing on a small screen, but I can often see a marked improvement when viewing my YouTube-downscaled HD content on a large HD screen. And you will certainly see the difference on a 4K TV when viewing YouTube 4K content. I have done side-by-side comparisons of HD & 4K uploads to YouTube to check this and believe the improvement in HD quality is worth the extra time and effort to edit and upload the content in 4K.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:02 am
by robedge
It ain’t great for filmmaker ego, but there are a couple of realities to consider.

The vast majority of videos for YouTube are shot at 1080p or lower resolution, and a substantial majority of viewers watch on a phone or tablet. My own YouTube analytics say that most people watch even videos about cameras, photography and filming on a mobile device. I’m hardly in a position to complain, given that I mostly watch YouTube on an iPad or iPhone myself.

In most cases, the argument for 4K based on resolution just doesn’t wash. That’s why the common refrain now is that shooting in 4K lets you punch in. This is about as lame as one can get. It results in storage and workflow complications based on the premise that you don’t know how to frame your shots and want to figure out composition while editing.

I think that the bigger issue for YouTube is to make sure that one’s composition works on a small screen and that the sound works with BlueTooth audio output, recognising that the video may be watched on the subway or in a noisy coffee shop. I think that audio intelligibility, especially of the spoken word, is a big issue. Last thing I do? I upload the video so that it’s private, and I watch and listen to it on my phone and tablet before making it public. In other words, I watch it the way most of my potential audience does.

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:43 pm
by jbeech
OK, so I have spent a small amount of money following Uli Plank lobbing a pebble into a still pond suggesting (perhaps tongue-in-cheek) a Sony FX9. Frankly, other than briefly considering an ENG-style Ursa mini and concluding I didn't want to spend that much money, I didn't properly consider a cine-oriented video camera (not that I want to spend that much money on that, either). Note; robedge nails it with his observation regarding 4K on YouTube because available stats indicate half of views are on a phone (I'm not making Gone With The Wind and the hoi polloi are plenty satisfied with 1080p).

Anyway, bobosola (and others), thanks for confirming my thinking regarding an EVF on a camcorder or ENG-type for following the fast action, and with respect to the rest of the gang . . . Ryan Earl, Jamie LeJune, Howard Roll, Ellory Yu, markr041, Denny Smith, James Harkness, pnguyen720, Nick Lang, mark.sze, Craig Seeman, Jim Simon, and Nick Heydon . . . for your über generous time, my deepest and most sincere thanks because I am under no illusion regarding how much of it I've taken up. The sincerity of your responses, the thoughtful exposition and sharing of experience - all in the endeavor of helping a utter stranger? Well, it speaks to my heart. Thank you!

So what have I done? After agonizing over ergonomics, instead of modifying a BMPCC for field use I took a leap of faith and bought a used camcorder with a horrible reputation for . . . bad ergonomics! Yes, I did.

On the flip side, it does combine some unique capabilities for not a lot of money. Added to an excellent price there's 4K slo-mo - not a lot but enough in my opinion. On the plus side, it includes a kit lens. It's one that will likely be adequate for my needs (remember, I am NOT a real filmmaker, I'm just an event videographer and what I do goes to YouTube). Anyway, the best part from my perspective (other than being included when most of these on eBay are offered sans lens) is it's a servo-equipped 18-200 and, most importantly, it's optically stabilized! No, it's not particularly fast, but then what kit lens ever is? Then again, I don't really care because it's for shooting outside where God has made available a gracious plenty of the best light ever!

Moreover, this thing uses an E-mount so converting to EF is inexpensive (I have several of these). I also have a decent Nikor VR 70-200 which is also stabilized so that's a possibility with an inexpensive adapter. Sadly, it's not equipped with a 12-pin connection, so the HD B4 lens is out without some finagling regarding power - maybe doable but I don't have time for projects. Regardless, I am flush with lenses and there are options galore because spending on glass is always fun.

So what did Beech buy for the field instead of modifying a BMPCC? It's an eight year old camcorder . . . a Sony NEX-FS700R and if you're unfamiliar with it, this 6 year old YouTube video (downunder guy name of David Smith) was especially helpful. Note; this is the title and date of the review (to facilitate the curious in finding it if linking doesn't work):
Sony NEX FS700 Review dated Jun 19, 2014 - https://tinyurl.com/yyddtj3q

Last thing; instead of rigging it like the many examples on YouTube (where people seemingly only speak in terms of horrible ergonomics and promptly stick them on a tripod or spend thousands configuring them for shoulder-carry like an ENG), instead I'm thinking to stuff the battery into my belly, rotate the periscope vertically 90-degrees (so that I look down into the EVF), then rotate the hand-grip 180 degrees so I can cradle it like a cat (or my smallest bitch), and follow the action. I 'think' this will work rather nicely. As for focus, I don't need no stinkin' autofocus because I'll set the lens to infinity and follow the action!

FWIW, I don't have the unit in hand yet, but I tried the cradle grip using Maggie (who goes 15 pounds). Unfortunately, she wiggles far too much to even try and hold for 5-minutes so I gave up after just one or two. However, I am more convinced than ever this will work - and Lynn, bless her heart, didn't even hike an eyebrow regarding why I was staring down intently at eight nipples while swinging Mags around in my arms last night! So was buying this camera a gamble? Maybe, we'll see - but - I'm very much hopeful the crouching/cradeling grip I envision will work a treat to capture good footage of the models in flight.

By the way, I never saw anybody control the camera that way on YouTube. Basically, everything I saw (without exception) devolved into a bitch session about the horrible ergonomics (after first talking up the good points like 4K and slo-mo). Me? I don't think Sony is stupid, do you? Bringing a camera to market is too costly to do so with crap ergonomics - I believe the others are missing something (fortunately, I don't suffer lack of confidence). Sure, maybe they're right and I'm wrong. Won't be the first time, and unlikely to be the last. Anyway, if worse comes to worse, I can always follow the lemmings and rig it with rails, a matte box, an EVF eyepiece in ENG position, plus a Tilta or similar shoulder pad contraption. I'm sure once converted to ENG-position I can capture what I need. Or sell it off. There's a market. However, the cradle hold was the first thing I saw in my mind's eye . . . what says the brain trust?

Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:17 am
by Ellory Yu
John, you've made the choice for your use so congratulations to your purchase and share us your videos. As an ex-RC flyer, I will be interested in watching them. You also might want to watch this, in case you have not.


Re: 4K Pocket Cam for run-and-gun?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:38 pm
by jbeech
Well he certainly got a better deal than me! Moreover, while I paid twice as much as he, I'm not unhappy. In fact, I'm so pleased (and despite learning what he paid) I just purchased a second off eBay to have as back up!