Blooming Sensor Update

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Brian@202020

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:27 am

To anyone from BMD,

Will all new BMPCC's coming from BMD have this "calibration fix"?
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:28 am

Quint A. Rahaman, Jr. wrote:
Thank you for your response, Joshua. I pre-ordered the Pocket the morning of April 11th from B&H and I estimate that B&H should deliver in the next two to three weeks. If I get the serial number prior to B&H shipping the Pocket, how can I be assured that that particular camera has been re-calibrated? Is there a "born on" date or "post this serial number" that you could detail here or to BlackMagic Support so that when I call, they'd have a definitive answer?


Brian@202020 wrote:Will all new BMPCC's coming from BMD have this "calibration fix"?

Looking into this answer now.
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matt harding

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:30 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
MagicAndMayhem wrote:Are you willing to accept a return for full refund if the customer is unhappy with this possible fix and is beyond their 30 day return policy?


Well, let's start here. I'm trying to get a few before and afters for comparison. Let me get those comparable shots and I'll post them. Hopefully I can get some later tonight (read: maybe tomorrow) and post them. If you see them and don't like them, it might help make the decision for you before your 30 day window runs out. Not ideal, but workable.



Hi Joshua, what is the expected turnaround time of this calibration test for someone based in Melbourne?

Cheers, MH
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David Jorgensen

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:31 am

Joshua Helling wrote:Guys, lets not take an Sarah's email to a customer out of context. We've been looking into this quite a bit (we take it seriously) and we feel that this recalibration will work well.

However, because (though the cases shown in this thread are stark) every camera is a little different, and everyone shoots a bit differently, the results are a bound to be a bit subjective.

So is this re-calibration going to help people who are seeing this issue. Yes. Is it going to allow you to point your camera at the sun and get a good shot? No.

We're not trying to be evasive, we're doing what we can help. Obviously we want you folks to be happy with your product.

So to clarify things just a little bit. We have a bit of work to do here in our office before we can start taking these back for re-calibration. So it will be probably next week until we can start taking them in. I imagine that each one should only take a few hours to do, but we'll know when we start doing them. In most cases we expect we can get those cameras back out (2nd day air) the day after we receive them. You ship it to us, and we'll cover getting it back to you.

The RMA form that's been pasted into this thread is a generic RMA form that we use for all of our products coming back to us for whatever reason, be it testing, repair, re-calibration, or replacement. It does NOT implicitly imply a defect. It's a form that is required for any product to be returned to us for whatever reason.

I hope this helps to clarify, please let me know if I can answer anymore questions and I'll do my best to answer with the information I have.


Thank you very much, Joshua for literally the first official response I have seen which acknowledges that BMD listens to and appreciates its customers, not to mention wanting us to be happy with your product. Plus a reasonable explanation of the issue and what to expect when sending it in for repair. A little of that goodwill goes a long way, I really don't understand why we haven't seen much of it before.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:33 am

Joshua, it's great seeing you replying, thank you!
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:42 am

matt harding wrote:Hi Joshua, what is the expected turnaround time of this calibration test for someone based in Melbourne?

Cheers, MH


Matt,

Great question. Since there are not many in that region, it's most likely going to go back to the BMD headquarters (in Melbourne). All in all the re-calibration should only take a few hours. Now that's not to say you can just walk in, so you'll need to setup a return, but it should be turned around just as quickly as here.
Joshua Helling

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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:47 am

litemakr wrote:Thank you very much, Joshua for literally the first official response I have seen which acknowledges that BMD listens to and appreciates its customers, not to mention wanting us to be happy with your product. Plus a reasonable explanation of the issue and what to expect when sending it in for repair. A little of that goodwill goes a long way, I really don't understand why we haven't seen much of it before.


stip wrote:Joshua, it's great seeing you replying, thank you!


You're welcome. Clearly it's not out intention to be neglectful, I know for my part I don't get near as much time on here as I would like.
Joshua Helling

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MagicAndMayhem

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:47 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
MagicAndMayhem wrote:Are you willing to accept a return for full refund if the customer is unhappy with this possible fix and is beyond their 30 day return policy?


Well, let's start here. I'm trying to get a few before and afters for comparison. Let me get those comparable shots and I'll post them. Hopefully I can get some later tonight (read: maybe tomorrow) and post them. If you see them and don't like them, it might help make the decision for you before your 30 day window runs out. Not ideal, but workable.


Like you said, all cameras are different. We would need to receive our specific camera back before making a decision.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:49 am

MagicAndMayhem wrote:Like you said, all cameras are different. We would need to receive our specific camera back before making a decision.


True, but it will give us a meter by which to guide ourselves.
Joshua Helling

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MagicAndMayhem

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:52 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
MagicAndMayhem wrote:Like you said, all cameras are different. We would need to receive our specific camera back before making a decision.


True, but it will give us a meter by which to guide ourselves.


The clock is ticking.
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matt harding

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:56 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
matt harding wrote:Hi Joshua, what is the expected turnaround time of this calibration test for someone based in Melbourne?

Cheers, MH


Matt,

Great question. Since there are not many in that region, it's most likely going to go back to the BMD headquarters (in Melbourne). All in all the re-calibration should only take a few hours. Now that's not to say you can just walk in, so you'll need to setup a return, but it should be turned around just as quickly as here.


Thanks for that.
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:56 am

Wow - so many postings from a BM representative!

Thank you, Joshua Helling, for taking up a real conversation with us, your customers - this feels different from what we've (not) heard here a long time. Et voilá - suddenly this thread is constructive and calm!

Let's keep it that way :-)
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Felix Steinhardt

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:56 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Quint A. Rahaman, Jr. wrote:Looking into this answer now.


You stated the the calibration takes several hours per camera, so it´s highly likely, isn´t it? ;)
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matt harding

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 1:29 am

I just checked up on that. For calibration cameras will need to be sent back to the secret factory. The process will take at least two weeks as they are going to be sent in batches. The factory is not based in Australia.
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Philip_Lipetz

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 1:34 am

Fuji tried to do the same fix, it didn't work for them.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 1:34 am

matt harding wrote:I just checked up on that. For calibration cameras will need to be sent back to the secret factory. The process will take at least two weeks as they are going to be sent in batches. The factory is not based in Australia.


This is not true. The US cameras will come to this office. The Camera's in other regions will go to the regional offices for the same re-calibration. If you're referring to the past infinity focus issue with the Tokina lenses, that was different because it required work on the actual sensor assembly. This does not.

Did you hear this somewhere? I just talked to headquarters an hour ago and that's not what I was told.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 1:36 am

Philip_Lipetz wrote:Fuji tried to do the same fix, it didn't work for them.


There is no way you can know that these are the same thing. So there is no way that you could know that our re-calibration and their "fix" are even related.. The cameras are not the same. Please avoid causing confusion in this thread.
Joshua Helling

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matt harding

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 1:41 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
matt harding wrote:I just checked up on that. For calibration cameras will need to be sent back to the secret factory. The process will take at least two weeks as they are going to be sent in batches. The factory is not based in Australia.


This is not true. The US cameras will come to this office. The Camera's in other regions will go to the regional offices for the same re-calibration. If you're referring to the past infinity focus issue with the Tokina lenses, that was different because it required work on the actual sensor assembly. This does not.


It's hard to know what to do when I am given conflicting information. No offence to you but I called the support line given on the BM website and was informed that you are the rep based in the US and the process is not being done in Australia. This is the information I was given over the phone and he said 2 weeks minimum. If someone gets back in contact with me with new information it will be a welcome surprise and I will update this post.
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 1:42 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Philip_Lipetz wrote:Fuji tried to do the same fix, it didn't work for them.


There is no way you can know that these are the same fixes. The cameras are not the same. Please avoid causing confusion in this thread.


So you are admitting that it is a "fix"? You do realize that is also admitting that something is broken...
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Philip_Lipetz

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 1:51 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Philip_Lipetz wrote:Fuji tried to do the same fix, it didn't work for them.


There is no way you can know that these are the same fixes. The cameras are not the same. Please avoid causing confusion in this thread.



OK Fuji tired a software fix first. What fix we don't know. But it did not work. I really hope this is different. I want this cam to work, as we have lots of S16 glass we want to use.
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Joel Frances

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:18 am

We all want to see it work. Joshua seems optimistic which is a good sign.
We'll just have to wait and see what images come from a calibrated sensor? Hopefully they aren't too far away.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:19 am

Clearly, positive progress is being made with Joshua coming in.
Let's wait for the before and after images he offered.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:25 am

matt harding wrote:I just checked up on that. For calibration cameras will need to be sent back to the secret factory. The process will take at least two weeks as they are going to be sent in batches. The factory is not based in Australia.


Nope. This will be done at the support offices not the factory. It will also not take 2 weeks.
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matt harding

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:30 am

Kristian Lam wrote:
matt harding wrote:I just checked up on that. For calibration cameras will need to be sent back to the secret factory. The process will take at least two weeks as they are going to be sent in batches. The factory is not based in Australia.


Nope. This will be done at the support offices not the factory. It will also not take 2 weeks.


Hi Kristian thanks for your reply. Are you based in Australia or the US? Can you provide contact details of who I should contact in Australia?

Best, MH
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:46 am

Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:
Joshua Helling wrote:
Philip_Lipetz wrote:Fuji tried to do the same fix, it didn't work for them.


There is no way you can know that these are the same fixes. The cameras are not the same. Please avoid causing confusion in this thread.


So you are admitting that it is a "fix"? You do realize that is also admitting that something is broken...


Okay...seriously? You're picking apart my post? I used the word FIX in the same context as it was provided. It's still a recalibration. So I will ask of you what I asked of Philip, please don't intentionally cause confusion. I'll edit my post so that anyone reading it will be clear.
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Steve DiMaggio

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:48 am

"black out" coming
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:50 am

Steve DiMaggio wrote:"black out" coming


Nah, not at this point. I edited my post for future clarity. I did not touch the quoted stuff. But that type of word twisting does NOBODY any good.

sarcasm
It also makes me want to post more
/sarcasm
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:51 am

matt harding wrote:Hi Kristian thanks for your reply. Are you based in Australia or the US? Can you provide contact details of who I should contact in Australia?


He's out of Australia. We'll get those details, since it's a little different from our normal RMA process in that region.
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:52 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Philip_Lipetz wrote:Fuji tried to do the same fix, it didn't work for them.


There is no way you can know that these are the same fixes. The cameras are not the same. Please avoid causing confusion in this thread.


Finally, someone from BMD willing to talk about an issue. We've had issues about sound on the BMCC for a year now, and BMD has ignored all comments. Sure would like someone to comment and give assurances there. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10361
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 2:52 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Okay...seriously? You're picking apart my post? I used the word FIX in the same context as it was provided. It's still a recalibration. So I will ask of you what I asked of Philip, please don't intentionally cause confusion. I'll edit my post so that anyone reading it will be clear.


I would appreciate it if you would not accuse me of trying to "intentionally cause confusion" that is extremely insulting.

As is you insistence that this problem is somehow in our heads and that we should pay to ship a defective product back to be fixed, even though according to you it's not really broken, you're just trying to be nice to your delusional and incompetent customers by doing us the favor.
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:02 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Philip_Lipetz wrote:Fuji tried to do the same fix, it didn't work for them.


There is no way you can know that these are the same thing. So there is no way that you could know that our re-calibration and their "fix" are even related.. The cameras are not the same. Please avoid causing confusion in this thread.


You have no idea how hard I just fist pumped at your last few posts.

My one mostly useless post today (at least I think it was.)

Continue winning, please.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:03 am

ChrisBarcellos wrote:
Joshua Helling wrote:
Philip_Lipetz wrote:Fuji tried to do the same fix, it didn't work for them.


There is no way you can know that these are the same fixes. The cameras are not the same. Please avoid causing confusion in this thread.


Finally, someone from BMD willing to talk about an issue. We've had issues about sound on the BMCC for a year now, and BMD has ignored all comments. Sure would like someone to comment and give assurances there. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10361


We've definitely been following that thread. We will be improving that. I don't have any more info at this moment, but I assure you we are well aware of it.
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:03 am

I would like to focus if we can about making the camera what it suppose to do best ... Fix, calibrate whatever that is, just make it work. It did sting a little to shell out $48 + for shipping and insurance today but the heck with it. I want to get this camera working like it suppose too.
I appreciate the open line of communication here in hopes that we all can put this saga behind us soon.
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Kevin Thompson

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:10 am

Joshua Helling wrote:Guys, lets not take an Sarah's email to a customer out of context. We've been looking into this quite a bit (we take it seriously) and we feel that this recalibration will work well.

However, because (though the cases shown in this thread are stark) every camera is a little different, and everyone shoots a bit differently, the results are a bound to be a bit subjective.

So is this re-calibration going to help people who are seeing this issue. Yes. Is it going to allow you to point your camera at the sun and get a good shot? No.

We're not trying to be evasive, we're doing what we can help. Obviously we want you folks to be happy with your product.

So to clarify things just a little bit. We have a bit of work to do here in our office before we can start taking these back for re-calibration. So it will be probably next week until we can start taking them in. I imagine that each one should only take a few hours to do, but we'll know when we start doing them. In most cases we expect we can get those cameras back out (2nd day air) the day after we receive them. You ship it to us, and we'll cover getting it back to you.

The RMA form that's been pasted into this thread is a generic RMA form that we use for all of our products coming back to us for whatever reason, be it testing, repair, re-calibration, or replacement. It does NOT implicitly imply a defect. It's a form that is required for any product to be returned to us for whatever reason.

I hope this helps to clarify, please let me know if I can answer anymore questions and I'll do my best to answer with the information I have.


Josh,

I don't have a BMPCC, I have an MFT BMCC and am happy ... that said ...

Your warrantee cover parts and labour (workmanship). If the sensor was not calibrated incorrectly at the point of shipment. Then irrefutably you have shipped a product with faulty workmanship.

If you tried to make me pay for the shipping in Australia, consumer affairs is a phone call away. I suggest you do a recall.

I hope it gets fixed soon, so I can order a couple

Kevin
Last edited by Kevin Thompson on Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:11 am

Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:I would appreciate it if you would not accuse me of trying to "intentionally cause confusion" that is extremely insulting.


I am truly sorry you feel that way. It was more of a polite warning. It wasn't intended as an insult.

Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:As is you insistence that this problem is somehow in our heads and that we should pay to ship a defective product back to be fixed, even though according to you it's not really broken, you're just trying to be nice to your delusional and incompetent customers by doing us the favor.


I never said what you all are seeing is in your head. Quite the opposite. I believe you guys. I'm just trying to clarify things. But your response does not reflect my post. At all.
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Steve DiMaggio

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:14 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Steve DiMaggio wrote:"black out" coming


Nah, not at this point. I edited my post for future clarity. I did not touch the quoted stuff. But that type of word twisting does NOBODY any good.

sarcasm
It also makes me want to post more
/sarcasm

Josh I am glad that someone is active on here! That is a big help!
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:16 am

+1000
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Ryan Jones

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:26 am

Ok now I'm fed up.

I've tried to be glass half full, but I put in my service request as asked, and got fobbed off on the distributor who sends me back to my dealer, who isn't returning calls.

If this is the best you can do, it's put me off a 4k order, that's for sure.
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:28 am

Joshua, thank you for posting here. It seems like a hostile environment, but you should know there are also those of us who are glad and appreciate that you are providing information.
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:34 am

Can't wait to get hold of my BMPCC. Videocraft, Sydney. I am now 2nd on list. And am very confident that if I do have an issue "if", BM in Melbourne will look after it.

Steve.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:35 am

Ryan Jones wrote:Ok now I'm fed up.

I've tried to be glass half full, but I put in my service request as asked, and got fobbed off on the distributor who sends me back to my dealer, who isn't returning calls.

If this is the best you can do, it's put me off a 4k order, that's for sure.


Hey Ryan. Shoot me a PM and I'll work out the details with you tomorrow. Chances are they are still coming up to speed on what we're doing. We'll work it out.
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Gan Eden

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:40 am

Joshua,

WHO is the main port of call in Australia. Name and contact details please?
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:50 am

Gan Eden wrote:Joshua,

WHO is the main port of call in Australia. Name and contact details please?


So that's what I'm gonna get worked out. If this were a different product, it would likely go back to the Disti or dealer. But these are going back to the headquarters (in your region), but we may still need you to book through the dealer/disti. Let me work that out, and I'll get back.
Joshua Helling

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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 3:55 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
ChrisBarcellos wrote:
Joshua Helling wrote:
Finally, someone from BMD willing to talk about an issue. We've had issues about sound on the BMCC for a year now, and BMD has ignored all comments. Sure would like someone to comment and give assurances there. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10361


We've definitely been following that thread. We will be improving that. I don't have any more info at this moment, but I assure you we are well aware of it.


Hi Joshua: Thanks for communicating on the topics of BMPCC "orbs" and BMD camera sub-par audio. The latter topic is of particular interest to me.

But I don't want to take this thread off-topic. So, thanks for the above, and back to all things orb. Cheers.

-
http://www.peterdv.com
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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 4:01 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:I would appreciate it if you would not accuse me of trying to "intentionally cause confusion" that is extremely insulting.


I am truly sorry you feel that way. It was more of a polite warning. It wasn't intended as an insult.

Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:As is you insistence that this problem is somehow in our heads and that we should pay to ship a defective product back to be fixed, even though according to you it's not really broken, you're just trying to be nice to your delusional and incompetent customers by doing us the favor.


I never said what you all are seeing is in your head. Quite the opposite. I believe you guys. I'm just trying to clarify things. But your response does not reflect my post. At all.


According to the e-mail correspondence I've had with support the official stance Blackmagic is taking is that this problem is not really a problem but rather a normal quality exhibited by all camera sensors. And that essentially we are just being picky BUT Blackmagic is "as a courtesy" offering the re-calibration, so long as we are willing to pay to ship it to them.

If you believe us that this is a problem as you claim, then take responsibility for the fact that it was Blackmagic who screwed up and sent out the improperly calibrated cameras, and pay for shipping both ways. You know do it the way a truly professional company with good customer service would do it...
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ChrisBarcellos

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 4:05 am

Joshua Helling wrote:We've definitely been following that thread. We will be improving that. I don't have any more info at this moment, but I assure you we are well aware of it.


Good to hear at last !!!
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ChrisBarcellos

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 4:08 am

For you orb seekers, here is some night footage shot with the BMCC EF probably a couple of days after we got it in March, 2013. I make no comment, just provide this to you for comparison.

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Ryan Jones

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 4:09 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Gan Eden wrote:Joshua,

WHO is the main port of call in Australia. Name and contact details please?


So that's what I'm gonna get worked out. If this were a different product, it would likely go back to the Disti or dealer. But these are going back to the headquarters (in your region), but we may still need you to book through the dealer/disti. Let me work that out, and I'll get back.

Thanks Joshua, your efforts are appreciated and I hope your bosses have noticed the change in tone in this thread since you started posting some useful info.

And a raise. I hope they give you a raise.

I've just been informed the current AU procedure is dealer -> disti -> BMD.

Dealer currently isn't returning calls, must be a very busy Friday. Also no longer opens on Saturdays, so its probably a mail order process for me either way.

People, THIS is why BMD should have taken their time to comment on it. So they could get things sorted out and in place, making any process as easy and farce free as possible. Instead no one you're talking to about returns seems to have any idea what they're supposed to do, while other countries just get a nice easy RMA form to send it back.
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DanAbrams

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 4:10 am

Mr. Helling,

Thanks so much for being responsive and keeping us in the loop. Without information, people tend to get agitated and go a little cuckoo.

But boy-oh-boy, I see why BMD really wanted to wait and offer a reasoned response. Every word from every official response is parsed with lawyer-like precision. It's like feeding wolves.

Please keep us in the loop on this issue. It makes most of us a lot less nuts.
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 4:11 am

ChrisBarcellos wrote:For you orb seekers, here is some night footage shot with the BMCC EF probably a couple of days after we got it in March, 2013. I make no comment, just provide this to you for comparison.



Looks MUCH better than the BMPC.
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