Blooming Sensor Update

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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:23 pm

blooming.jpg
blooming.jpg (134.85 KiB) Viewed 13743 times


And here it is with some S curve applied.
Eli Hershko
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christian.himmelstrand

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:28 pm

Don't forget suitable protective wear.

Image
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Johan Cramer

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:34 pm

Eli hershko wrote:And here it is with some S curve applied.

All very acceptable. I personally think that BM tackled the problem fast and professionally.
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Mataikan

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:34 pm

Rinaldo Lima wrote:
Mataikan wrote:
LMACKREATH wrote:Headlights blooming in the background at 44 secs??


note that I was trying my hardest to blow the highlights out. opened the lens to 0.95 (which i would admit softens the image to fuzz)
What you think? Blooming is usually solid white disc with a hard edge. These ones seem to have falloff , and lol Chromatic Aberrations from my lens.


Yes, I think it looks better, but I'm not totally convinced too.

Mataikan, take a look at this video, they are very strong here >
This is the type of scene I think you should try next time you'll be able to... thanks!


ok i hope this is better.

Braved through the monsoon rain and got these shots . pocket camera in plastic bag, standing in the middle of the road to get them flares. :D fun!

I used 2 lens
Voigtlander 25mm f/0.95 Micro 4/3 Nokton
Panasonic 14mm F2.5

I had the vogilander stopped down to 1.4 in the last shot i think
and the brightest are at 0.95
the panasonic was at 2.5 i think all the time.
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:38 pm

you are the MAN!!!!
this is even better :D
I am happy.
Eli Hershko
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Felix Steinhardt

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:39 pm

MEGA THANK YOU for doing this test!
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Mataikan

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:47 pm

Rinaldo Lima wrote:Thank you for taking your time Mataikan. Just a few questions: you did shot something before and actually saw the orbs (no ufo talk... :) ).. right?? Tell us about the lenses you are using and camera settings pls.



yea i got alot of solid disc from hell blooms. it's like a hard edged graphic white balls on every highlight.
before the fix , now looks like it's gone.
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Rinaldo Lima

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:53 pm

Mataikan wrote:
Rinaldo Lima wrote:Thank you for taking your time Mataikan. Just a few questions: you did shot something before and actually saw the orbs (no ufo talk... :) ).. right?? Tell us about the lenses you are using and camera settings pls.



yea i got alot of solid disc from hell blooms. it's like a hard edged graphic white balls on every highlight.
before the fix , now looks like it's gone.


Thank you very much!! It really seems they are gone, or at least are VERY acceptable. Nice job :P


Mataikan wrote:Braved through the monsoon rain and got these shots . pocket camera in plastic bag, standing in the middle of the road to get them flares. :D fun!



You're the man!
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Mataikan

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 7:59 pm

Thanks guys , now i can fly off to france to pay my respects to Chris Marker. And do a little san soleil tribute on the pocket camera, freaking RED epic was killing me. Viva to Human Sized Cinema !
Last edited by Mataikan on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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POV

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:00 pm

Camera operator ( Alexa -RED - C500 ... ) and camera(s) owner here making the first posting after reading all the pages related on this thread - full fireproof jacket on.

A call to all the posters on this thread : " Did you find anything good in this camera !? "

After all just a week ago you were gathering in small and larger groups for wild masturbating sessions with imaginary BMPCC on your minds with all those announced feature ! The features that are all there or will be delivered soon. It's the first revision of a dream camera in your hands. Embrace it and continue to be the brave one that took the risk of pre-ordering base on a trust. You don't like it, there is a permanent issue in it that bothers you out of you daylight - just return the PHULKING thing.
Creating virtual mobs and " Gangs of Internet " won't help anybody. Many of the posts on this thread are just stupid or ridiculous.
Again - this is the revision one of a VERY UNIQUE camera and you chose to be the early adopter so take the pain of being the early adopter.
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Rinaldo Lima

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:07 pm

Mataikan wrote:Thanks guys , now i can fly off to france to pay my respects to Chris Marker. And do a little san soleil tribute on the pocket camera, freaking RED epic was killing me. Viva to Human Sized Cinema !

I see you also tried to fix it in post... not bad! More or less what I would do >
Good trip! And bring some nice footage from Paris to our delight.... :)
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Tungee

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:08 pm

Mataikan, thank you very much!
Im fully satisfied with the changes...
Bravo BM!
Last edited by Tungee on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:14 pm

paragram wrote:All very acceptable. I personally think that BM tackled the problem fast and professionally.




Yup. To put this into perspective, it took Fuji half a year to get a similar problem fixed.

...just saying.
http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

I told you so :-)
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Kholi Hicks

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:29 pm

This is exactly why Josh's response to the comment about "Fuji tried this same thing" was completely justified, and absolutely speaks to the state of forums. Clearly it wasn't the same thing.

Good show.
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David

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:31 pm

Mataikan wrote:Thanks guys , now i can fly off to france to pay my respects to Chris Marker.


You have exquisite taste, Sir.
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:42 pm

Mataikan wrote:
ok i hope this is better.

Braved through the monsoon rain and got these shots . pocket camera in plastic bag, standing in the middle of the road to get them flares. :D fun!

Firstly: thank you for walking out into the rain for us, and for the clips of course (and as a personal note: is this soundtrack from bladerunner? you just decided my midnight movie choice... Thx!)

I'm glad we finally see that the camera can be fixed, and obviously it's not that hard or lengthy procedure. The washed out highlights in this footage could be attributed to the lens, which can get quite soft wide open, especially around highlights - so this can be considered "normal behavior".
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MMedia

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:46 pm

Looks great now! Thank you for going out in the rain to get this footage for us.
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christiangruner

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:52 pm

Tungee wrote:MAtaikan, thnk you very much!
Im full satisfied with the changes...
Bravo BM!


Same here... Now I have no worries about using my RMA number I got earlier today, especially with BMD paying all shipping fees via UPS.

Of course I'd rather be without all this fuzz, but they have indeed handled this issue quickly.
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 8:59 pm

Well I'm relieved to see it's (apparently) fixed. Thank you for that Blackmagic.

I'm still pretty disappointed that BMD still wants to pretend like fixing it is a "courtesy" and that we are expected to pay to ship the camera back for something that was BMD's fault in the first place. But at least I'll be able to keep my camera.

I really do love the little thing and I was worried that after waiting so long and putting so much hope into it I would have to give it up.

So here's to hoping everything goes smoothly in the future with raw and all that...

I look forward to successfully filming some chrome on a hot sunny day.
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christiangruner

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 9:01 pm

Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:Well I'm relieved to see it's (apparently) fixed. Thank you for that Blackmagic.

I'm still pretty disappointed that BMD still wants to pretend like fixing it is a "courtesy" and that we are expected to pay to ship the camera back for something that was BMD's fault in the first place. But at least I'll be able to keep my camera.

I really do love the little thing and I was worried that after waiting so long and putting so much hope into it I would have to give it up.

So here's to hoping everything goes smoothly in the future with raw and all that...

I look forward to successfully filming some chrome on a hot sunny day.

BMD pays the shipping :) You'll get an UPS account number so BMD will be billed by UPS.
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 9:05 pm

wizprod wrote:
Tungee wrote:MAtaikan, thnk you very much!
Im full satisfied with the changes...
Bravo BM!


Same here... Now I have no worries about using my RMA number I got earlier today, especially with BMD paying all shipping fees via UPS.

Of course I'd rather be without all this fuzz, but they have indeed handled this issue quickly.



ALL shipping fees?
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 9:06 pm

wizprod wrote:
Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:Well I'm relieved to see it's (apparently) fixed. Thank you for that Blackmagic.

I'm still pretty disappointed that BMD still wants to pretend like fixing it is a "courtesy" and that we are expected to pay to ship the camera back for something that was BMD's fault in the first place. But at least I'll be able to keep my camera.

I really do love the little thing and I was worried that after waiting so long and putting so much hope into it I would have to give it up.

So here's to hoping everything goes smoothly in the future with raw and all that...

I look forward to successfully filming some chrome on a hot sunny day.

BMD pays the shipping :) You'll get an UPS account number so BMD will be billed by UPS.



Hi Angus,

Unfortunately we are not covering the cost of shipping for an RMA booked for the blooming effect. Let me rephrase my earlier statement to clarify my meaning. This effect is not deemed a defect in the camera, and as stated previously, this is an inherent nature of CCD and CMOS sensors. We recognize that in some workflows this effect can occur, and if this occurs in a customer's workflow and they wish for us to address this, we can work to minimize this effect as much as possible but will not be able to eliminate it entirely. Through the recalibration process, we believe the effect will be minimized to a level the customer will deem acceptable in these particular workflows. However, "acceptable" in these terms is always subjective.

If you would like to go ahead with the RMA process I can get that set up for you. We would ultimately love for you to continue using our camera, but if you prefer to return to your reseller, we do understand.

Best Regards,

Sarah Jones
Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.
www.blackmagicdesign.com
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christiangruner

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 9:12 pm

Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:
wizprod wrote:
Tungee wrote:MAtaikan, thnk you very much!
Im full satisfied with the changes...
Bravo BM!


Same here... Now I have no worries about using my RMA number I got earlier today, especially with BMD paying all shipping fees via UPS.

Of course I'd rather be without all this fuzz, but they have indeed handled this issue quickly.



ALL shipping fees?


Yes.

I "asked":
I take it that the UPS account number is so that I wont have any expenses sending the camera back for “repair”?


the answer was (after a very short time):

Hi Christian,

That is correct, the UPS account will be used to charge us for the shipping.

The recalibrations will start taking place week commencing 16/9, so I recommend you send your camera nearer this time.

The RMA will be held open until we receive your camera.

Thank you.

Paul.


Very happy with the support I have gotten :)
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 9:21 pm

wizprod wrote:Very happy with the support I have gotten :)



Apparently they like you a lot more than they like me. I've been pretty hard on them but not until they started to show they didn't appreciate my business. Until then I was on here defending them. Now it seems I have even more reason than ever to be disappointed in the service I've received.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 10:32 pm

Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:
wizprod wrote:Very happy with the support I have gotten :)



Apparently they like you a lot more than they like me. I've been pretty hard on them but not until they started to show they didn't appreciate my business. Until then I was on here defending them. Now it seems I have even more reason than ever to be disappointed in the service I've received.


Just a general comment, not directed to an individual, for those having concerns about the handling of the blooming problem:

Hope you manage to resolve the concern about shipping to BMD or wherever you are sending the camera. I know they say "the squeaky wheel gets the oil" but remember that "you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar." Everything is happening quickly and there are several steps to take to coordinate the activities for the world which may even have differences in procedures required by local regulations and so on. It takes time to get the message out and everything running smoothly.

As for the service, I think most people are very appreciative that this problem has been demonstrated by one of us to be corrected within a week of being reported by one of us. I am very impressed that this recalibration could be turned around so quickly, at least for the first person who has graciously posted his footage. There was a lot of vitriol expressed in this forum towards BMD and many videos posted highlighting the admittedly unacceptable blooming on the production Pocket cameras. I hope there will be more videos posted highlighting the correction of the problem that only took a week! Yes, there are still many things to be addressed, but this should raise our confidence that BMD is doing all they can. All part of the infant's teething pains but when these cameras become toddlers, they are going to walk very proudly.

Rick Lang
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 10:44 pm

Hey all,

Here's that image I said i'd have to track down. Please forgive that I had to convert it to JPG to get it into the forums. But here it is.

We managed to get a customers camera that was showing this issue. The Pre re-calibration is on the left and the Post re-calibration is on the right.

Right click and choose "View Image" to see a full sized.

split_screen.jpg
pre|post re-calibration
split_screen.jpg (828.31 KiB) Viewed 13436 times


Please let me know if you have any questions.
Joshua Helling

Director of World Wide Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.
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Panamatom

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 10:50 pm

Joshua Helling wrote:
Please let me know if you have any questions.


Where can I order now??? :P
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Johan Cramer

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 11:08 pm

Joshua Helling wrote:Hey all,
We managed to get a customers camera that was showing this issue. The Pre re-calibration is on the left and the Post re-calibration is on the right.

[...]

Please let me know if you have any questions.


Thank you! Likely, many people here will share my opinion that there are no more questions!

How great, and kudos for the work of the engineering team.
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StephenH

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 11:13 pm

Where can I order now???


Get inline! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Panamatom

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 11:19 pm

They changed the timing of the high and the low conversion gain mode, somebody said.

I don´t understand anything, but if it helps ...
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rick.lang

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 11:29 pm

Panamatom wrote:They changed the timing of the high and the low conversion gain mode, somebody said.

I don´t understand anything, but if it helps ...


I was afraid to ask what exactly they did in this age of proprietary corporate intelligence. I thought they might say, "We can tell you, but then we'd have to shoot you!" And I don't mean that in the sense of cinematography, but something more graphic.

Rick Lang
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Tungee

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 11:41 pm

The left ist the pre-calibration one and the right one is the post-calibration one?
When yes, why are the shadows in the post calibrated picture on the left darker; i can see more details in the darks in the left image? I hope it is still 13 Stopps?!
Attention to the left side of the right picture...
Last edited by Tungee on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Tungee

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 11:42 pm

Also the pillows on the left has more in the shadows...
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 12:02 am

Looks very good to me!

I want to thank Joshua, things went really positive since he stepped in!
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Tim Callaghan

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 12:03 am

Tungee wrote:Also the pillows on the left has more in the shadows...


There's an additional light on in the left side frame. Look at the reflection in the window (top left) and the shadow that is cast from the frame. I'm almost certain there's another light source, which would explain the difference.

Great test though and shows the different specular highlight handling. Needs a few more 'controlled' tests but I think this is a fantastic turnaround for BMD. Well done.
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Joel Frances

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 12:05 am

This is great news. It still would be good to see a comparison between BMCC as well. Similar to Adam Roberts quick test where you can see how highlights in the background interfere with foreground elements.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 12:07 am

Tungee wrote:The left ist the pre-calibration one and the right one is the post-calibration one?
When yes, why are the shadows in the post calibrated picture on the left darker; i can see more details in the darks in the left image? I hope it is still 13 Stopps?!
Attention to the left side of the right picture...


Hi,

Good spotting. It's darker because the balcony lights were off on 'after' one. I'll look for a better still.
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Mike Schrengohst

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 12:14 am

So, what about cameras that have not shipped yet????

Or will everyone have to send cameras back to get fixed?

Any serial number range for cutoff?
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 12:25 am

Mike Schrengohst wrote:So, what about cameras that have not shipped yet????

Or will everyone have to send cameras back to get fixed?

Any serial number range for cutoff?


Not every camera requires this but we're setting this as the new baseline calibration.

We are also implementing this new calibration in cameras that ship going on forwards but this change has already been effected since start of the week.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 12:45 am

Here's another update guys.

As Kristian mentioned, not all cameras will have to come back.

On that note, so far I have less than a dozen people (in the US region) that have signed up to have the calibration. So what we're suspecting is that only some of the earliest cameras show this.

At this point we've gotten a few cameras back that have definitely been improved by the re-calibration. As Kristian said is now the baseline for cameras coming out of the factory.

I know the shipping thing has been a bit of a sticking point for some. So, for those that send their camera in I intended to drop an extra battery in there for you, as a way of saying thanks for sending it in. If that's not what you're looking for please let the support agent know when you arrange the RMA and we can try to work something out.

I'm out for the weekend guys. I'll try to keep up a bit over the weekend, but my answers will be slower. Have a good weekend!
Joshua Helling

Director of World Wide Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.
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StephenH

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 1:00 am

The washed out highlights in this footage could be attributed to the lens, which can get quite soft wide open, especially around highlights -


Given that the camera lens was shooting through a plastic bag, would not help image either.
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 1:50 am

Josh,
Thank you for making this an easy and pleasant experience... Enjoy your weekend...
You and BMD came through big time ...
Eli Hershko
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Ryan Jones

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 1:54 am

Joshua Helling wrote:Here's another update guys.

As Kristian mentioned, not all cameras will have to come back.

On that note, so far I have less than a dozen people (in the US region) that have signed up to have the calibration. So what we're suspecting is that only some of the earliest cameras show this.

At this point we've gotten a few cameras back that have definitely been improved by the re-calibration. As Kristian said is now the baseline for cameras coming out of the factory.

I know the shipping thing has been a bit of a sticking point for some. So, for those that send their camera in I intended to drop an extra battery in there for you, as a way of saying thanks for sending it in. If that's not what you're looking for please let the support agent know when you arrange the RMA and we can try to work something out.

I'm out for the weekend guys. I'll try to keep up a bit over the weekend, but my answers will be slower. Have a good weekend!

That's awesome Joshua. In Australia I'm stuck with having to send it in so this kind of show of appreciation is worth it.

And these little suckers like batteries so the more the merrier!
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Dave Dominguez

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 6:45 am

I just received my pocket camera. i believe i am experiencing blooming in my footage but I don't want to send in my camera just yet. i have to much work in the month of september. would i be eligible to send it in at later date to get calibrated? how much time do i have before i can no longer get my camera calibrated?

also, how long should i expect to have wait the day i drop off my camera off to get shipped, before i will have it back in my hand?

thanks!
https://vimeo.com/daviddominguez
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Samjack

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 7:22 am

Kholi wrote:This is exactly why Josh's response to the comment about "Fuji tried this same thing" was completely justified, and absolutely speaks to the state of forums. Clearly it wasn't the same thing.

Good show.


I believe Fuji's problem were the same but that depended on how the software handles the sensor. If the sensor design doesnt want to play ball with the software calibration that was used, as in Fuji's case, then the only solution for them was to replace the sensor.
It was fortunate for all of us and BMD that their sensor on the pocket was able to software re-calibrate to reduce the bloom.

I must also add the complaints from customers are fully justified and help push BMD to sort this problem for us all. The response from detractors saying people didnt see it previously on demo samples and should simply accept it was clearly WRONG! Not even an apology :roll:
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David C Talbert

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 7:44 am

For those of us in Canada, we send the camera to California or is there somewhere closer?
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Robert Betzner

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 7:55 am

Now BMD let's fix the "Black Dot Issue" that is persistent in the BMC EF, MFT and BMPC.

;)

Cheers

pro.
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Jace Ross

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 8:12 am

pro---studio wrote:Now BMD let's fix the "Black Dot Issue" that is persistent in the BMC EF, MFT and BMPC.

;)

Cheers

pro.


You mean the same issue that the Arri Alexa has too?
BMPCC, FD Canon 28mm f2.8, Tokina 80-200mm F4, Tamron 70-300mm f4 C Canon J6x12 MFT SLR Magic 17mm T1.6, Sigma 19mm f2.8, Samyang 7.5mm f3.5
Rode VideoMic, Viewfactor Cage/Handle/Grip/Perspex backing
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Mataikan

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 8:20 am

Jace Ross wrote:
pro---studio wrote:Now BMD let's fix the "Black Dot Issue" that is persistent in the BMC EF, MFT and BMPC.

;)

Cheers

pro.


You mean the same issue that the Arri Alexa has too?


wow i didn't know about that, got a link to that issue for alexa?
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adamroberts

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostSat Sep 07, 2013 8:51 am

Mataikan wrote:wow i didn't know about that, got a link to that issue for alexa?


First 2 links.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=black ... 8&hl=en-gb
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