Blooming Sensor Update

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David Jorgensen

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 7:25 pm

I think it's easy to understand.
Proably the beta / test / prototype cameras have different sensor versions from sensor manufacture with different need of calibration.

This is not BMD's fault, this is the sensor manufacture who has made a mess, just like with the 4K Camera sensors.


Of course it is BM's fault, they did not test properly.


This is 100% BMD's fault. The cameras should not have been sent out without proper "calibration" (if that is indeed the issue, they apparently don't know for sure??). Whether or not the sensor manufacturer made a mistake is irrelevant. BMD is responsible for quality control of the camera and all of its internal components.
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kfrerichs

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 8:21 pm

Per Kristian Lam's post, I spoke with Richard in support at the Fremont, CA office today to arrange for a calibration service.

Richard was very helpful and said that they will be ready to offer the calibration as a courtesy service in one to one and a half weeks (so roughly the 20th of September.)

Richard also said they would pay for return shipping. He also wanted to make sure I understood that this is a courtesy service and that the Pocket Camera is not defective.

They are taking names and contact info now and will contact me/you when they are ready.
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Stefan Longin

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 8:26 pm

kfrerichs wrote:...
Richard also said they would pay for return shipping. He also wanted to make sure I understood that this is a courtesy service and that the Pocket Camera is not defective...


Is that an officiel BM statement? If so, it would be a good reason to bury any plans about it and get rid of the cam asap. Can't believe that it isn't stated as a faulty camera/sensor (name it calibration to save the face)
S. Long
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 8:30 pm

on my RMA it clearly stated:
Faulty product returning to manufacturer for repair.
Eli Hershko
http://www.conjuredvisions.com
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christian.himmelstrand

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 8:30 pm

litemakr wrote:
I think it's easy to understand.
Proably the beta / test / prototype cameras have different sensor versions from sensor manufacture with different need of calibration.

This is not BMD's fault, this is the sensor manufacture who has made a mess, just like with the 4K Camera sensors.


Of course it is BM's fault, they did not test properly.


This is 100% BMD's fault. The cameras should not have been sent out without proper "calibration" (if that is indeed the issue, they apparently don't know for sure??). Whether or not the sensor manufacturer made a mistake is irrelevant. BMD is responsible for quality control of the camera and all of its internal components.


I don´t think you guys get it, first, calibrating a raw camera sensor is not like adjusting the level of your headlight on your car with a screwdriver, second, they have made advanced calibration already, all cameras are calibrated to these algorithms, meanwhile, sensor manufacture change sensor version with out notice in the middle of production, chaos!

This is the most complicated part in camera development.

JB gives perpective to this in the 4k thread:

John Brawley wrote:
silvio bonomi wrote:
...this is incredible !! A sensor is not a "banana", is a piece of high tecnology ! How is possible that a sensor maker industry is not able to reproduce the same kind of sensors of pre-production !!

The same "sad" situation with sensor of BMCC...speechless...

silvio bonomi


This is exactly what caused Aaton to close their doors this year. At last year's IBC they showed their first Penelope Delta, a 6K DNG camera with a Kodak/ True Sense sensor to great acclaim.

http://www.redsharknews.com/business/it ... f-business

When they ordered a production run of sensors, they weren't the same as the proto/demo sensor they did all their initial calibration on. They were in the middle of building their first 5 production cameras and they ran out of money chasing down inconsistent sensors.

An innovative camera company with more than 30 years of filmmaking history went bust trying to calibrate sensors because the best sensor company on the planet, Kodak / Truesense couldn't deliver consistently performing sensors.

Ikonoskop cameras, an early digital cinema camera innovator also went bust this year.

Digital Bolex, who announced their initial delivery before the original BMCC, still haven't delivered and are now only just producing moving images.

Making cameras is really hard and there's a lot that happens behind the scenes. A lot of it is also highly proprietary and BMD are rightfully protective of their IP. Let's not bust their arses when you don't actually know what your'e talking about.

jb
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 8:35 pm

I put my trust in the hands of BMD's repair.
they did it once on my EF with the flange distance and I didn't hesitate in sending in my camera.
Time will tell.
Eli Hershko
http://www.conjuredvisions.com
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 8:37 pm

kfrerichs wrote:He also wanted to make sure I understood that this is a courtesy service and that the Pocket Camera is not defective.


This is not acceptable (if this is true).

From the carefully expressed statement it is clear they are trying to avoid terminology such as 'issue' 'fault' 'problem' ect to stay on the safe side legally and not commit to anything that might involve further costs.
And obviously they have briefed that internally as well now.

But the camera is faulty at this stage.
It does not work as advertised and everyone thinking about sending their's back should be persistent about this.
Last edited by Michel Rabe on Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 8:39 pm

here is the RMA I got... if you read at the very end of it...

Hi,

I have included the product return receipt below for the product you're returning.
This also includes our address details for shipping the product to us.

It's very important to check this information for accuracy and then print and include it
with the product you're returning. This will help us ensure the product is returned
without any delays.

Please let me know if you have any questions at all.

Regards,

Marce Medina
Blackmagic Design

==================================
Blackmagic Design Product Return Receipt
==================================

REPORTED DATE: Thursday, September 5, 2013

REFERENCE NUMBER:

CUSTOMER INFORMATION
Eli Hershko

RETURN PRODUCT TO
Marce Medina
RMA 49806
Blackmagic Design Inc.
2875 Bayview Dr
Fremont, CA 94538 USA
+1 (408) 954 0500 Phone

PRODUCT INFORMATION
Model: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera
Serial Number:
Manufactured: 2013-08-16 09:04:30
Issue: Experiencing the Blooming Effect with Pocket Cinema Camera

Label return shipment as: "Faulty Product returning to manufacturer for repair"
Eli Hershko
http://www.conjuredvisions.com
http://pro.imdb.com/name/nm2860666/
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:02 pm

Eli hershko wrote:here is the RMA I got... if you read at the very end of it...

Hi,

I have included the product return receipt below for the product you're returning.
This also includes our address details for shipping the product to us.

It's very important to check this information for accuracy and then print and include it
with the product you're returning. This will help us ensure the product is returned
without any delays.

Please let me know if you have any questions at all.

Regards,

Marce Medina
Blackmagic Design

==================================
Blackmagic Design Product Return Receipt
==================================

REPORTED DATE: Thursday, September 5, 2013

REFERENCE NUMBER:

CUSTOMER INFORMATION
Eli Hershko

RETURN PRODUCT TO
Marce Medina
RMA 49806
Blackmagic Design Inc.
2875 Bayview Dr
Fremont, CA 94538 USA
+1 (408) 954 0500 Phone

PRODUCT INFORMATION
Model: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera
Serial Number:
Manufactured: 2013-08-16 09:04:30
Issue: Experiencing the Blooming Effect with Pocket Cinema Camera

Label return shipment as: "Faulty Product returning to manufacturer for repair"


Eli, they told me I would have to pay return shipping. Did they tell you the same?
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kfrerichs

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:07 pm

Eli, interesting, because when I spoke with Richard this morning at the Fremont location, he told me Fremont, CA is not ready to do calibration services on the Pocket Camera at this time and that I could send it in but it would sit for the next week/week and a half while they tooled up to perform calibration services for the Pocket Camera.

So I opted to be put on a call back list rather than letting the camera sit for the next few weeks while they get setup.

He was very polite but clear that the "blooming" issues is not due to a product defect and that as a courtesy to BM customers they would do the calibration service for free and provide free return shipping.

He repeated the statement to ensure that I understood that the camera is not defective but clearly your RMA return label states otherwise.
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:18 pm

kfrerichs wrote:Eli, interesting, because when I spoke with Richard this morning at the Fremont location, he told me Fremont, CA is not ready to do calibration services on the Pocket Camera at this time and that I could send it in but it would sit for the next week/week and a half while they tooled up to perform calibration services for the Pocket Camera.

So I opted to be put on a call back list rather than letting the camera sit for the next few weeks while they get setup.

He was very polite but clear that the "blooming" issues is not due to a product defect and that as a courtesy to BM customers they would do the calibration service for free and provide free return shipping.

He repeated the statement to ensure that I understood that the camera is not defective but clearly your RMA return label states otherwise.



Hi as far as when they will be ready to calibrate I was told about a week as well... Other than that there was no mentioning as to wether or not the camera is defaulted or not... I did received another email stating that that sending it in for calibration was voluntary since the blooming effect was due to work flow issue...
Eli Hershko
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:20 pm

Eli hershko wrote:
kfrerichs wrote:Eli, interesting, because when I spoke with Richard this morning at the Fremont location, he told me Fremont, CA is not ready to do calibration services on the Pocket Camera at this time and that I could send it in but it would sit for the next week/week and a half while they tooled up to perform calibration services for the Pocket Camera.

So I opted to be put on a call back list rather than letting the camera sit for the next few weeks while they get setup.

He was very polite but clear that the "blooming" issues is not due to a product defect and that as a courtesy to BM customers they would do the calibration service for free and provide free return shipping.

He repeated the statement to ensure that I understood that the camera is not defective but clearly your RMA return label states otherwise.



Hi as far as when they will be ready to calibrate I was told about a week as well... Other than that there was no mentioning as to wether or not the camera is defaulted or not... I did received another email stating that that sending it in for calibration was voluntary since the blooming effect was due to work flow issue...


"workflow issue" That's insane... Filming a scene with specular highlights is not a workflow issue...

Also you didn't answer my question. Did they make you pay for return shipping?
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kfrerichs

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:23 pm

Richard said that they would pay for return shipping. Not sure what they told Eli but would imagine it's the same answer as its the same BM center.
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:24 pm

No...I was to pay for one trip Only sending it to them. They will pay the trip back.
Eli Hershko
http://www.conjuredvisions.com
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:35 pm

It's politics.

They don't want it to be a 'defect', it's the better position for them, but also the worse for you.

If you send it in and they can't fix the blooming issue to your satisfaction, or at all, they will not be legally bound to further look into it as they are just doing 'a courtesy' and nothing's officially wrong with the camera.

I'm not saying they aren't really trying to fix it, but it's important that this issue is adressed as an issue, a camera fault, whenever you communicate with them, don't fall for that game.

EDIT: it's really sad how this whole thing evolves
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ronhaley

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:42 pm

If it's a "camera" issue, they'll have to issue a recall, whereas here they are only going to fix those cameras customers complain about. It allows them to keep shipping a defective product.
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:44 pm

Keep in mind that this is all backward because it was copied and pasted from my e-mail. It seems Blackmagic is still trying to avoid taking responsibility for their defect...

Hi Angus,

Unfortunately we are not covering the cost of shipping for an RMA booked for the blooming effect. Let me rephrase my earlier statement to clarify my meaning. This effect is not deemed a defect in the camera, and as stated previously, this is an inherent nature of CCD and CMOS sensors. We recognize that in some workflows this effect can occur, and if this occurs in a customer's workflow and they wish for us to address this, we can work to minimize this effect as much as possible but will not be able to eliminate it entirely. Through the recalibration process, we believe the effect will be minimized to a level the customer will deem acceptable in these particular workflows. However, "acceptable" in these terms is always subjective.

If you would like to go ahead with the RMA process I can get that set up for you. We would ultimately love for you to continue using our camera, but if you prefer to return to your reseller, we do understand.

Best Regards,

Sarah Jones
Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com

Ticket History
Angus Lyne (Client) Posted On: 05 September 2013 12:55 PM

Your statement "The recalibration process should minimize this effect to an
*acceptable* level" shows that you are acknowledging that currently the
cameras are exhibiting an effect that is 'unacceptable'... And I agree it
is unacceptable. It is a defect in your product and I should not be
required to pay return shipping for something that is defective.

I really like the camera other than the blooming, and I do not want to have
to return it to B&H for a full refund.

So keep in mind that my experience with the Pocket Camera (and your
customer support) will dictate whether I recommend or discourage
my colleagues (and the public) from using your products. And it will also
be a major deciding factor in whether or not I will keep my order for the
4K camera, or ever buy another product from Blackmagic again.

Blackmagic is gaining a lot of negative momentum with all the product
delays and defects. I recommend that you do everything possible to not add
to this negative public perception.

I want to see Blackmagic succeed. But I can't do business with a company I
feel I can't trust to take responsibility for their mistakes and defective
products.

So please take responsibility for this and make it right. I really truly
want to be a loyal and supportive customer. So give me a reason to be that.

Sincerely,
Angus Lyne






Sarah Jones (Staff) Posted On: 05 September 2013 12:12 PM

Hi Angus,

This blooming effect is inherently the nature of sensors if elements in a shot are overexposed (i.e. sun glinting off a surface or a bright headlight rolling by), and the effect can be minimized as much as possible but never truly eliminated. The recalibration process should minimize this effect to an acceptable level.

If the bloom is an issue to a particular workflow we are happy to book an RMA and recalibrate it in our labs as a courtesy. This process is voluntary, and you would be required to pay the cost of shipping to the local support office. If you are concerned about timing for the possibility of a return to your reseller, I couldn't really sway you one way or the other on this and the decision would be up to you on how you would like to proceed. I will let you know that it's going to be a few days before we could book an RMA as our lab gets everything squared away logistically to handle the recalibration process.

Just let me know if you would like to go ahead with booking an RMA and I can get you the appropriate paperwork to fill out.

Angus Lyne (Client) Posted On: 05 September 2013 11:37 AM

Subject/Title: Pocket Cinema "Blooming" Sensor
Driver Version: ?
OS Version: 7
Product Series: Blackmagic Cameras
Product: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera
Enquiry: I just saw the update from Kristian Lam about the "Blooming Sensor". And I would like to have my camera 're-calibrated'... My only concern is that Kristian's response seemed to be rather vague as to whether this would actually fix the problem or not. And if I send my camera in for re-calibration my 30 day window for returning the camera to B&H will likely be closed by the time I get the camera back from you.

So can I count on you to fix the problem whatever it takes?
First Name: Angus
Last Name: Lyne
Company: Corrupt Frame, Inc.
Email:
Phone Number:
Country: US


Angus Lyne (Client) Posted On: 05 September 2013 11:23 AM

Subject/Title: Pocket Cinema "Blooming" Sensor
Driver Version: ?
OS Version: 7
Product Series: Blackmagic Cameras
Product: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera
Enquiry: I just saw the update from Kristian Lam about the "Blooming Sensor". And I would like to have my camera 're-calibrated'... My only concern is that Kristian's response seemed to be rather vague as to whether this would actually fix the problem or not. And if I send my camera in for re-calibration my 30 day window for returning the camera to B&H will likely be closed by the time I get the camera back from you.

So can I count on you to fix the problem whatever it takes?
First Name: Angus
Last Name: Lyne
Company: Corrupt Frame, Inc.
Email:
Phone Number:
Country: US


Ticket Details
Ticket ID: BBF-148-77662
Department: Support
Type: Issue
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MagicAndMayhem

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:53 pm

WOW. Get out while you still can.

I wanted to be a believer too but you can only take so much.

And now the process will knock everyone out of the 30 day return window. Nicely played BMD.
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 9:57 pm

MagicAndMayhem wrote:WOW. Get out while you still can.

I wanted to be a believer too but you can only take so much.

And now the process will knock everyone out of the 30 day return window. Nicely played BMD.


I'm going to make sure I post a lot of blooming videos to Vimeo and YouTube before I return the camera.
The lack of accountability and customer service is insulting.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:05 pm

This is sad.
Bye everyone
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MagicAndMayhem

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:11 pm

They do realize there is an internet and people talk and post stills and video right? unbelievable.


Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:
Hi Angus,

This blooming effect is inherently the nature of sensors if elements in a shot are overexposed (i.e. sun glinting off a surface or a bright headlight rolling by)


Clermond from bmcuser wrote:it has nothing to do with wrong exposure aka user fault

this was my last trial before I put the camera back into the box:

exposing how I thought it would be right:

Image

exposing on highlights to avoid "wrong exposure"

Image

just for fun compare it with my regular bred and butter camera FS700, sLog 8Bit AVCHD

Image

quick correction in FCP X with MB Looks (not even Resolve)

Image

don't accept any fairy tales about wrong exposure. I am waiting for my RMA, very curious how camera will come back.
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:16 pm

"MagicAndMayhem"]They do realize there is an internet and people talk and post stills and video right? unbelievable.

That's why I say they are 'insulting'... They're talking to us like were a bunch of idiots that don't know anything about cameras.


I actually find it hilarious that they would throw away my $1,000 Pocket Camera purchase and 4K pre-order for a total loss of $5,000 all so they can save a few dollars on shipping a small package... That makes wonderful business sense...
Last edited by Corrupt Frame, Inc. on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike Schrengohst

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:18 pm

Sounds like Black Magic needs to do a recall of all pockets sold. Period.

At their expense….

They don't quite understand customer service.
Last edited by Mike Schrengohst on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kfrerichs

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:21 pm

Blaming this on a workflow issue and claiming that this is common with CCD or CMOS cameras is a bit concerning.

While that might be true in some cases, I can't seem to recreate the same blooming using the same workflow with my AF100 or GH2s (same lenses, ND filters, ISO, etc.)

I don't doubt that recalibrating might help, but the bigger question for me is will I have to go through this again when RAW becomes available?

I just submitted my RMA with B&H and canceled my other order with Adorama. I'm personally disappointed and wish Blackmagic much success, as I do admire their innovation and and emerging market leadership.
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Richard Squires

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:25 pm

I am very glad I cancelled my order now. This is turning into a debacle and I imagine that the negative publicity this is getting will serious damage BMD's already fragile reputation. To hear from the horses mouth so to speak that the customer has to pay for shipping the camera back for re-calibration which may or may not fix the problem is quite frankly laughable. Please take a look here at how Fuji dealt with their sensor blooming white orb issue.

http://products.fujifilm.com.au/extrapages/default.asp?id=72

Now that's how it should be done.
Richard Squires
Broadcast Designer/Director
Melbourne Australia
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Richard Squires

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:27 pm

MagicAndMayhem wrote:They do realize there is an internet and people talk and post stills and video right? unbelievable.


Corrupt Frame, Inc. wrote:
Hi Angus,

This blooming effect is inherently the nature of sensors if elements in a shot are overexposed (i.e. sun glinting off a surface or a bright headlight rolling by)


Clermond from bmcuser wrote:it has nothing to do with wrong exposure aka user fault

this was my last trial before I put the camera back into the box:

exposing how I thought it would be right:

Image

exposing on highlights to avoid "wrong exposure"

Image

just for fun compare it with my regular bred and butter camera FS700, sLog 8Bit AVCHD

Image

quick correction in FCP X with MB Looks (not even Resolve)

Image

don't accept any fairy tales about wrong exposure. I am waiting for my RMA, very curious how camera will come back.

+1 Again there is now way it is user error as this quite plainly proves
Richard Squires
Broadcast Designer/Director
Melbourne Australia
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MagicAndMayhem

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:31 pm

BMDMeme.jpg
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Eli hershko

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:33 pm

maybe Grant is on vacation and not aware that his company is going to the toilet...
Eli Hershko
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ronhaley

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:35 pm

So far no proof that recalibration fixes it!

Ron Haley
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Felix Steinhardt

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:47 pm

Just pulled the plug. Will use my BMCC as it performs flawlessly but this a very sad development! BMD has lost my trust.
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Philip_Lipetz

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:53 pm

While I got rid of our BMPCC, no time for hopes and delays when I need to shoot, I have to point out that BM has not shut down this thread. They deserve some credit for that. If that had happened then the lynch mob would take a charter plane to BM HQ. but it has not happened, so props to BM for some PR sense.
Last edited by Philip_Lipetz on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

popcornflix

Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 10:57 pm

Boy, this is disappointing.

I want to believe in BMD, I want to love their products. This is just awful.

They're trying to get away with selling a defective product. They're pretending that nothing's wrong, and that it's all a subjective problem in the user's mind caused by the way the user is operating the camera.

BMD is acting as if they hope only a few customers will notice the problem, so BMD can keep selling cameras with defective sensors. I thought they were better than that.

Really makes me reconsider buying from them.

Darn.
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David Jorgensen

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:16 pm

I don´t think you guys get it, first, calibrating a raw camera sensor is not like adjusting the level of your headlight on your car with a screwdriver, second, they have made advanced calibration already, all cameras are calibrated to these algorithms, meanwhile, sensor manufacture change sensor version with out notice in the middle of production, chaos!

This is the most complicated part in camera development.


You have got to be kidding me. We don't "get" it? They are a camera manufacturer and are responsible for consistent quality control of their "complicated" products. It's what they do. If the sensor somehow "changed" (which I doubt since no one seems to have one that works correctly), they should have caught it immediately. And where did they say that the sensor changed anyway? The official response comes off as a vague accusation that users are somehow making this up with a vague suggestion that it "might" be fixed with a calibration. And now their reps are telling customers this is a "courtesy" calibration. It's a bunch of BS and further proof that BMD not only don't know what they are doing, they have very little respect or appreciation for their customers. This is yet another example of a very poor response to a growing list of problems. It just gets worse and worse each week.
Last edited by David Jorgensen on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tungee

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:24 pm

Hi, I'm new this forum;
but i was lurking around here for a while....
I sold 2 months ago my GH2, because of the pocket.....
I ordered in May....
One day August has come and BM could not deliver in masses.. ok :?
Ok, sh*t happens.....
But now i ask myself, does BM has a quality managment at all? I cant believe, that they have overseen this issue; i dont call it blooming, i call it harsh orbs without fine gradients.. this is unbelievebale! :evil:

SO you can say, your failure, why did you sold your GH2?
Yes its a failure that i trust BM!
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:26 pm

Guys, lets not take an Sarah's email to a customer out of context. We've been looking into this quite a bit (we take it seriously) and we feel that this recalibration will work well.

However, because (though the cases shown in this thread are stark) every camera is a little different, and everyone shoots a bit differently, the results are a bound to be a bit subjective.

So is this re-calibration going to help people who are seeing this issue. Yes. Is it going to allow you to point your camera at the sun and get a good shot? No.

We're not trying to be evasive, we're doing what we can help. Obviously we want you folks to be happy with your product.

So to clarify things just a little bit. We have a bit of work to do here in our office before we can start taking these back for re-calibration. So it will be probably next week until we can start taking them in. I imagine that each one should only take a few hours to do, but we'll know when we start doing them. In most cases we expect we can get those cameras back out (2nd day air) the day after we receive them. You ship it to us, and we'll cover getting it back to you.

The RMA form that's been pasted into this thread is a generic RMA form that we use for all of our products coming back to us for whatever reason, be it testing, repair, re-calibration, or replacement. It does NOT implicitly imply a defect. It's a form that is required for any product to be returned to us for whatever reason.

I hope this helps to clarify, please let me know if I can answer anymore questions and I'll do my best to answer with the information I have.
Joshua Helling

Director of World Wide Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.
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ronhaley

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:31 pm

Joshua,
Some footage on a before and after would calm a lot of folk! May even stop a lot of cancellations. Also a statement on future deliveries. Will they have the same issue, or will they be calibrated?

Ron Haley
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Christopher S. Thompson

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:33 pm

Thank you for the additional information, Joshua.

I suppose my question would be ... will the recalibration result in a comparable image to the BMC 2.5K? Or is the highlight handling going to remain visibly different?

Or to put it another way, does the recalibration get rid of the orbs, or just lessen the effect?
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:39 pm

comet48 wrote:Joshua,
Some footage on a before and after would calm a lot of folk! May even stop a lot of cancellations. Also a statement on future deliveries. Will they have the same issue, or will they be calibrated?

Ron Haley


This is a reasonable request...and I'll see if I can get some footage. No guarantees because I don't have any footage myself, but I will definitely reach out to see if I can get some.
Joshua Helling

Director of World Wide Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.
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ronhaley

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:42 pm

Joshua,
That's great. We are in the same boat as you - we want you to succeed!

Ron Haley

popcornflix

Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:44 pm

Joshua Helling wrote:I hope this helps to clarify, please let me know if I can answer anymore questions and I'll do my best to answer with the information I have.


Thank you for addressing our dissatisfaction. Your reply is encouraging.

Could BMD please demonstrate that calibration eliminates the orb blooming? Fuji had to replace their sensors in order to solve the orb problem.

How to demonstrate? On a sunny day, take some footage of the parking lot, with many specular highlights on car doors, glass, chrome, etc. Take footage with a BMDCC MFT and a Pocket camera with the same lens and settings. Show the pocket footage before (with orbs) and after (without orbs) recalibration.

This would make us feel better, and adjust our expectations. At this point, you'd probably sell more cameras, too, because people would be reassured.

Thanks for opening a dialogue with us.
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Tungee

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:44 pm

Yes nobody wants that!
I’ll keep my fingers crossed for the pocket.
I will not cancel my preorder....
Because i dreamed too long about the pocket.
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:45 pm

Joshua Helling wrote:Guys, lets not take an Sarah's email to a customer out of context. We've been looking into this quite a bit (we take it seriously) and we feel that this recalibration will work well.

However, because (though the cases shown in this thread are stark) every camera is a little different, and everyone shoots a bit differently, the results are a bound to be a bit subjective.

So is this re-calibration going to help people who are seeing this issue. Yes. Is it going to allow you to point your camera at the sun and get a good shot? No.

We're not trying to be evasive, we're doing what we can help. Obviously we want you folks to be happy with your product.

So to clarify things just a little bit. We have a bit of work to do here in our office before we can start taking these back for re-calibration. So it will be probably next week until we can start taking them in. I imagine that each one should only take a few hours to do, but we'll know when we start doing them. In most cases we expect we can get those cameras back out (2nd day air) the day after we receive them. You ship it to us, and we'll cover getting it back to you.

The RMA form that's been pasted into this thread is a generic RMA form that we use for all of our products coming back to us for whatever reason, be it testing, repair, re-calibration, or replacement. It does NOT implicitly imply a defect. It's a form that is required for any product to be returned to us for whatever reason.

I hope this helps to clarify, please let me know if I can answer anymore questions and I'll do my best to answer with the information I have.



Here's a question for you. Why does your company think it makes good business sense to make customers pay for shipping to fix something you should have caught in beta? All while being vague about how much it will improve the problem...

I've made it clear to your support team. Either you commit to giving your customers the service they deserve and pay for shipping both ways or you lose me as a customer and I return the Pocket Cam and cancel my 4k order.

How does it make sense to throw away a customer and $5,000 to save a few dollars on shipping costs? It doesn't, it's short sighted and the impact of your bad customer service decisions will have a rippling effect.

Already many people have canceled orders and they've begun to send their cameras back. If you're smart you'll do what you can now to stop the hemorrhaging and earn some trust back from your customers.

Until a few days ago I loved your company. But the more you talk the more that changes.
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Corrupt Frame, Inc.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:53 pm

Also there is nothing "out of context"... It's completely 100% in context. I posted the entire string of communication from beginning to end. There is no better context.
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Michel Rabe

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:54 pm

Thanks for communicating with us!!

You still deny that it's a camera fault. Well, as long as you think you can fix it, so be it. Morally, you should cover shipping, but you have to know.


As someone mentioned, just grab the camera and film a parking lot in sunshine for blooming tests.

And again, thanks for communicating!!
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Amagus

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostThu Sep 05, 2013 11:55 pm

Also, if this re-calibration works to everyone's satisfaction, will the new BMPCC's coming out of the factory get the new calibration and be ok out of the box? I'm still interested in the BMPCC, but I already canceled my pre-order as I don't want to go through the hassle of buying something only to have to send it back for a service that may or may not completely eliminate the problem (and by that I mean it behaves exactly like the BMCC for the issue in question).
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MagicAndMayhem

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:04 am

Are you willing to accept a return for full refund if the customer is unhappy with this possible fix and is beyond their 30 day return policy?
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Quint A. Rahaman, Jr.

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:09 am

Joshua Helling wrote:Guys, lets not take an Sarah's email to a customer out of context. We've been looking into this quite a bit (we take it seriously) and we feel that this recalibration will work well.

However, because (though the cases shown in this thread are stark) every camera is a little different, and everyone shoots a bit differently, the results are a bound to be a bit subjective.

So is this re-calibration going to help people who are seeing this issue. Yes. Is it going to allow you to point your camera at the sun and get a good shot? No.

We're not trying to be evasive, we're doing what we can help. Obviously we want you folks to be happy with your product.

So to clarify things just a little bit. We have a bit of work to do here in our office before we can start taking these back for re-calibration. So it will be probably next week until we can start taking them in. I imagine that each one should only take a few hours to do, but we'll know when we start doing them. In most cases we expect we can get those cameras back out (2nd day air) the day after we receive them. You ship it to us, and we'll cover getting it back to you.

The RMA form that's been pasted into this thread is a generic RMA form that we use for all of our products coming back to us for whatever reason, be it testing, repair, re-calibration, or replacement. It does NOT implicitly imply a defect. It's a form that is required for any product to be returned to us for whatever reason.

I hope this helps to clarify, please let me know if I can answer anymore questions and I'll do my best to answer with the information I have.



Thank you for your response, Joshua. I pre-ordered the Pocket the morning of April 11th from B&H and I estimate that B&H should deliver in the next two to three weeks. If I get the serial number prior to B&H shipping the Pocket, how can I be assured that that particular camera has been re-calibrated? Is there a "born on" date or "post this serial number" that you could detail here or to BlackMagic Support so that when I call, they'd have a definitive answer?

Thank you!

BTW: Thank you for all of your hard work on the Pocket as well as all the other hardware and software your company produces.
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matt harding

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:22 am

Just got my camera and ran a quick test. Won't be filming into headlights again in a great hurry!

Screen Shot 2013-09-06 at 10.16.01 AM.png
Screen Shot 2013-09-06 at 10.16.01 AM.png (486.6 KiB) Viewed 11970 times
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Brian@202020

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:24 am

matt harding wrote:Just got my camera and ran a quick test. Won't be filming into headlights again in a great hurry!

Screen Shot 2013-09-06 at 10.16.01 AM.png


yuck
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Blooming Sensor Update

PostFri Sep 06, 2013 12:26 am

MagicAndMayhem wrote:Are you willing to accept a return for full refund if the customer is unhappy with this possible fix and is beyond their 30 day return policy?


Well, let's start here. I'm trying to get a few before and afters for comparison. Let me get those comparable shots and I'll post them. Hopefully I can get some later tonight (read: maybe tomorrow) and post them. If you see them and don't like them, it might help make the decision for you before your 30 day window runs out. Not ideal, but workable.
Joshua Helling

Director of World Wide Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.
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