The Rolling BANDING/Internal INTERFERENCE issue (to BMD)

Hello everyone,

I know that has been already discussed in many topics, but I didn't see any clear response by BMD on this.
People say they get their cameras replaced at the end, but often that issue is not easily accepted by the support.
I've got two cameras showing this and there might be others having trouble with sorting this out. At the other end BMD's support have also difficulties judging and acknowledging the problem, which results in bad customer experience and broken nerves

To describe the issue shortly: Rolling flickering like noise/banding in low light areas of footage, mostly at 1600ASA, mostly there is a faint horizontal line in the middle and fine vertical banding. As far as I can see size of the flicker is FOV dependent as it is smaller with a normal/wide lens. (No idea why)

In my situation after Pocket's delay I had to buy a BMCC for a two month project (i'm flying on 18th).
I got my camera on 30.08, same day it had the rolling noise in dark areas, so I opted for a return ticket to retailer, they sent the camera to BMD (UK). After 5 days (!) BMD responded with some well exposed dng's that there isn't any problem and they can't reproduce it. After sending more samples they supposedly aknowledged it and sent me a replacement. That replacement had to be and was checked for any problems, as I needed a 100% working camera ASAP.

So new unit arrives the other day and within the first 10 seconds it proves to have the very same issue, but this time even worse. After sending samples again and waiting for 2 days, they say the usual that "camera is not for low light and I should expose well"...

After much frustration on this I'd like to ask anyone from the BMD team to define how should the BMCC work in low light and if this is expected to occur. I'd like to ask people with working cameras to confirm if they have this issue or not.

I really want to resolve this ASAP, as I have to fly on the 18th and chances I get a working camera by then are getting smaller with every hour.

As I don't think it is normal that the BMCC's own support team can't see the issue with this and struggles to check a replacement camera to see if is any better,Please, Blackmagic, make a clear statement if this is normal to occur or not! That way users with bad luck can get quick and hassle free support, without having to exchange many mails with BM team trying to show them something, that is discussed in so many topics here and on the other forums. Can be bad circuit or calibration, but we need to know we can count on support to be able to recognise it and send us a tested working replacement.

I look forward to your opinion and experience, so we can make this clear for everyone!
Please don't go off topic, just share if you get this with your BMCC and if you like me had bad cameras, what answer did you got form BMD's support. Thanks!

Shooting conditions: 1600 ASA, low light area in frame, flickering seen on screen, in raw and on PRORES.
Highlight area is on the edge of clipping with zebras on 100%!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jmiv4x80mcdea ... _C0001.mov
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i2b39t0fpzn69 ... _C0001.mov

DNG samples:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w1eoqz833hf2b ... 000018.dng
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w1eoqz833hf2b ... 000018.dng

GH3 sample of the same scene:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b6rhpoe80i1h7bv/P1050595.MOV

test_1.jpg (304.25 KiB) Viewed 66789 times

test_2.jpg (363.73 KiB) Viewed 66789 times

Still hoping for an input Just say if your BMCC does that or not, thanks!

Some more grabs from prores @800 and 1600 ASA, highlights just before clipping @100% Zebras.

@1600ASA

@1600ASA_2.jpg (760.84 KiB) Viewed 66724 times

@1600ASA

@1600ASA_1.jpg (760.37 KiB) Viewed 66724 times

@800ASA

@800ASA.jpg (620.11 KiB) Viewed 66724 times

Hi there,
My BMCC EF also has this issue, in low exposed areas of a scene, the rolling noise and banding is apparent and crawls smoothly at different speeds, it appears to be internal interference and I have sent my Camera back to CVP in England for a check. No update from CVP yet as they have to send the Camera to the UK Blackmagic supplier for testing.

Hi Christian,
same here! I bought mine from CVP, then got a replacement through BMD UK, but it was even worse. They said they've tested it, but apparently they missed it. Now I'm hoping for a miracle to get a camera till 17th...

You're right it is better to describe this as 'internal inteference', I wonder if that is also calibration related...

Thanks for the input! Wish you luck with yours!

I have told CVP that I have some Video files of the rolling banding issues on my PC if they can't replicate the issue when testing. They said that would be very useful if they can't spot it in they own testing. I must admit I would never shoot in this low light without lighting the scene, but you never know when I may have to go Guerrilla style and I don't want this limitation if it is an issue

I recommend to provide them with footage to speed up the procedure, send the footage via WeTransfer addressed to CVP and BMD uk.

I don't think one can light everything, sometimes you'd want to shoot at dusk, to get a contra-jour shot... In these cases you'll get the very same interference. I mean this can affect any shot, where one has to underexpose the shadows in order to save the highlights.

And I know BMCC gives us pretty raw sensor data, so I don't mind the noise as I can get rid of it in post, but this frequency-like moving pattern is always visible. There are many low light shots on vimeo of candles and so on, but all have pretty nice even shadows, so I'm sure this should be easily recognisable and acknowledged by BMD support.

I'm sure too it is isolated to a small number of cameras, maybe earlier models that are still in CVP's stock as they would have had a massive initial first order of the BMCC cams. I too love the raw processing straight from the sensor on these cams as my work is post heavy in my productions and I agree trying to rid this interference issue in post is a non starter for me. Hope you get sorted third time round, and let me know how you get on as I could also be in the same situation as you later on

I have the MFT version which they got very recently, so i doubt it is early production related, but who knows...

I have 2 of BMCC EF mounts and both have the same issue. Sent an email to Blackmagic and so far have been completely ignored.

knjordan,

very bad! Maybe better try through the reseller? They could help a bit getting attention, although in my case CVP were sending a couple of mails to BMD that my matter was urgent and I still haven't got a proper response from them after 3 days. And I already see them telling me that don't see an issue with the footage and that it is normal, expose more etc.

It'll be great to get an input from those who've got working replacement or any test footage "before and after" replacement.

I sent two cameras with this issue back to the retailer. The 3rd camera I received did not have the rolling bands, but does faintly have the horizontal line and fixed noise pattern, though they're only visible when the image is severely underexposed.

John Brawley has mentioned that every camera has some kind of fixed noise on the sensor, and I've even seen this on cameras like the 5D Mark III.

So, as far as I can tell, the rolling bands is an actual problem, but the fixed noise / horizontal line may be in every CMOS camera, unless the company has taken explicit steps to mask it.

I sent two cameras with this issue back to the retailer. The 3rd camera I received did not have the rolling bands, but does faintly have the horizontal line and fixed noise pattern, though they're only visible when the image is severely underexposed.

John Brawley has mentioned that every camera has some kind of fixed noise on the sensor, and I've even seen this on cameras like the 5D Mark III.

So, as far as I can tell, the rolling bands is an actual problem, but the fixed noise / horizontal line may be in every CMOS camera, unless the company has taken explicit steps to mask it.

Yes, the line is fixed and not visible after grading, it doesn't bother me.
Though the rolling stuff is pretty depressing - camera is practically unusable in 1600ASA in low light.

Too bad CVP can't just replace cameras, but have to send them to BMD... it doesn't make any sense - I've reported the issue an hour after receiving both cameras. Not the best service I had

What puzzles me is if there are let's say one hundred cameras with that issue how comes BMD support act so surprised that such a thing exists?! They couldn't even properly test the replacement they sent me

I've experienced the same rolling horizontal lines in the shadows shooting at 800 asa on bright mid day sun. It looked like an electric interference. I noticed that my battery level indicator didn't have that lightening icon so i removed my v-lock battery and popped it again and made sure that it was properly connected.
The lightening icon apeared and the rolling lines went away.

As I see that many people have already read that topic, please share if your BMCC have this or not!
This topic could be very useful to all those who need a proof that rolling issue is not normal and most of the cameras doesn't have it.

I f you don't know how to reproduce it, try this:

set camera on 1600ASA, point it to a shadow area and stop down the iris to underexpose.

If you have the issue your footage will be flickering (visible on the screen).

My first BMCC EF had this issue (delivered in May of this year). I contacted BMD and they wouldn't accept it as an issue without further troubleshooting. They recommended I swap it out with the reseller, Adorama, which I did. My replacement has been fine since.

Is this the rolling interference mentioned:

http://www.diglikes.com/bmcc/rollinglines.mov

The file is straight from the camera in 800ASA. It's hard to see in stills, but in motion you can definitely see the rolling.

Is this the rolling interference mentioned:

http://www.diglikes.com/bmcc/rollinglines.mov

The file is straight from the camera in 800ASA. It's hard to see in stills, but in motion you can definitely see the rolling.

Yes, it is! Try same scene @ 1600 ASA and it will become more noticeable.
I've noticed that it gets more intense when there is a combination of bright light (like street lamp) and deeper shadow area. Posting an example below.

Blackmagic-Cinema-Camera_1_2013-08-29_2255_C0000_000002.jpg (719.99 KiB) Viewed 66450 times

I've been mostly shooting in a not so contrasty scenes so I haven't noticed the interference. I'd think that the dark areas would come out as grainy, but without the horizontally moving banding kind of effect? The camera deliveres a great image in a flat light, but there's no doubt it should work as well in a scene where you have somewhat underexposed areas? I don't mind grain at all, but the horizontal moving is really a deal breaker kind.

Here is the link to my test:

Not the rolling banding, but definatly the vertical thin lines (fixed noise pattern)

The camera's I've tried at the IBC just past friday did not suffer from this.

So I've asked one of the folks on the stand, probably BMD UK going by the accent. And they said to me, better get it checked out (he also said something about a color shift)

I had a lens cap on so the sensor was in dark, took a clip and pushed the levels tight and there's a rolling interference going around. It's visible in camera and in post. I was thinking about wrong shutter angles, but i tested the camera in natural light (all shutter angles) but it's all the same.

I´ve just tested again with the 172º shutter and everything looks fine. It´s the only shutter degree that works. at 180º and every other angles the lines pop up again... Is this normal?

I´ve just tested again with the 172º shutter and everything looks fine. It´s the only shutter degree that works. at 180º and every other angles the lines pop up again... Is this normal?

The interference issue appears in all shutter angles no matter daylight or artificial.
You have to try in daylight to be sure.

To João Gomes
That is normal shutter angle/frame rate/power supply mismatch that you are seeing there, you are most likely shooting in PAL with a 50 mhz power supply and because the street lighting is lighting your scene your are getting the power cycles to framerate mismatch. The issue that we are having is apparent in shadows and some midtones in low light and low exposure situations, natural lighting and artificial lighting make no difference to this anomaly. So you have nothing to worry about there with your Cam João

I noticed another anomaly, i don't know if this is normal, but it seems the white areas are bleeding horizontal lines to the dark areas. It's clear when tilting. Also the rolling interference is visible in all shutter angles in 800ASA and 1600ASA in 100% natural light.

http://www.diglikes.com/bmcc/rolling3.mp4

I noticed another anomaly, i don't know if this is normal, but it seems the white areas are bleeding horizontal lines to the dark areas. It's clear when tilting. Also the rolling interference is visible in all shutter angles in 800ASA and 1600ASA in 100% natural light.

http://www.diglikes.com/bmcc/rolling3.mp4

Matti,

that is really bad! What lens did you use? A 50mm?

Sigma 18-35 f1.8.

Sigma 18-35 f1.8.

I notices the interference streaks are larger when using a 50mm for example and much thinner with 12mm. Though equally nasty of coarse. I wonder why is that...

http://www.diglikes.com/bmcc/rolling4.mp4

I uploaded another clip with 800ASA and 1600ASA. Shot at 180 shutter angle, all natural light. Same Sigma lens in 35mm. I don't have a light meter so i can't measure the dark area.

http://www.diglikes.com/bmcc/rolling4.mp4

I uploaded another clip with 800ASA and 1600ASA. Shot at 180 shutter angle, all natural light. Same Sigma lens in 35mm. I don't have a light meter so i can't measure the dark area.

It is better to provide straight the prores files from the camera, not mp4.

Hopefully someone from BMD will confirm that this is a camera defect.

I can upload prores-files also but they look the same. H264 creates compression artifacts, but surely the grain shouldn't be moving in a clear horizontal lines. The first day i got this camera i noticed the interference but i thought it was only in the monitor. I did all tests in flat light so i didn't notice this until a few days ago.

Matti Tihveräinen

That's exactly the same issue I'm having with my BMCC EF, and I have sent back to the supplier for testing and hopefully sorting! There really shouldn't be rolling lines like that and it has to be internal as there are no outside influences.

Thanks for the input! I'll wait for an answer from my dealer and BMD. It's a shame i've got lots of shoots coming this fall and i have to send the camera back. The shoots are in a controlled light environment and the camera could handle these with the current hic-up, but buying a camera with three years savings you have to get it fixed...

BMCC is from another planet for example to my Canon 7D i had, in terms of image quality, but the biggest pro for 7D was with reliability when you're not counting the specs. In four years i didn't spend any second in forums looking answers for quirks, because i knew i was dealing with basic dslr problems prominent to others.

I'd understand if all BMCCs had these problems and i had the option to buy the camera or not, but it's like flipping a coin to get one of the best out of the batch.

To all BMCC users: in a dark room when you look at the BMCC's screen with a lens cap on, do you see distinctive lines rolling on the black screen?

To all BMCC users: in a dark room when you look at the BMCC's screen with a lens cap on, do you see distinctive lines rolling on the black screen?

Not on mine.

Here are the prores straight from the camera:

http://www.diglikes.com/bmcc/800asa.mov
http://www.diglikes.com/bmcc/1600asa.mov

I'm totally frustrated as there is total silence from CVP and BMD despite the urgency of my case.
I'm sending samples to BM support since wednesday last week and still no real response and no action taken.

Here you can see how movement affects the banding. Rightclick and download, as it won't look good if you view it on dropbox.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/305 ... _C0015.mov

My dealer said that they haven't ever seen that kind of interference. I hope BMD gets back soon.

I'm totally frustrated as there is total silence from CVP and BMD despite the urgency of my case.
I'm sending samples to BM support since wednesday last week and still no real response and no action taken.

I think after the first part of this week they'll be more responsive. All the people of BMD I heard and saw at the IBC seemed pretty damn british to me

I'm also waiting to hear back from a RMA request.

can anyone tell me if my ef suffers from banding or is it random noise... I really can't tell.
I did a test at 1600 asa closing down every 3-5 seconds available light, 180 angle

can anyone tell me if my ef suffers from banding or is it random noise... I really can't tell.
I did a test at 1600 asa closing down every 3-5 seconds available light, 180 angle

I think that's just noise, not the interference we're having here.

can anyone tell me if my ef suffers from banding or is it random noise... I really can't tell.
I did a test at 1600 asa closing down every 3-5 seconds available light, 180 angle

I think that's just noise, not the interference we're having here.

Thanks... I really can't tell anymore.

Literally have had the problem with every replacement I've received. I'm fed up and just gonna live with it. No wonder they cut the price. I know this is the same quality control that's slowing the 4k's release.
I will never be able to shoot run and gun low-light footage with this aluminum crap box.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11406

Here's my thread on the same issue a month ago.

I feel sorry for everyone else who has this problem.

I got an answer from BMD requesting details about the faultiness. I uploaded some prores files from a couple of scenes and a long explanation of the issue. It's funny that the finnish dealer sold me the camera with a quote "guarantee dealt in Finland", but he told me to get straight in touch with BMD..?

What is the average time in RMA procedures?

Mine does it just for 2 minutes after you turn on the camera, they start rolling fast then slow and then go away, weird because you have to stare very hard to notice them and only on dark shadows, i just have to wait 2 minutes and camera is ready to roll.

I don't think there is much going on in the way of frequency shielding going on in these cameras and the screen which is large and takes most of the power energy from the cam is sitting very close to the sensor. In fact I bet if we could power down the display and record direct to an external drive this interference would not be apparent. Would be interested to see if this interference is noticeable on some pocket cams?

Just like the blooming issue, i'd like to hear some official statement from the BMD about this. Or maybe the silence tells me that they are still really working to figure this thing out? Is it a design flaw or just some random faulty components?

Oh crap I've found it on mine. I saw this post and decided to do a test as I've not shot in truly low light before. I shot one film on the camera and luckily nothing popped up but just tried in a very dark location and boom. I'm in ProRes at 400 iso just have the moving lines int he shadows. I'm probably past my 30 days as well.

Is it possible if you add contrast to hide the rolling banding noise? I've got a shoot coming up, an important one, and would prefer to avoid jumping through hoops until after it's over. It'll be lit but I'm totally going to be paranoid about this now.

Is it possible if you add contrast to hide the rolling banding noise? I've got a shoot coming up, an important one, and would prefer to avoid jumping through hoops until after it's over. It'll be lit but I'm totally going to be paranoid about this now.

Funny you mentioned it but I too noticed that if I stop down even further to increase contrast then those art effects go away or "hide",
it seems that when the camera is underexposing the shadows but the sensor still pick up details then those lines will be there but as soon as you increase the contrast gap and the shot becomes some what more film noir then these lines sort of crashed into the shadows...