USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 4267
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostWed Feb 17, 2021 3:51 pm

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:Cheers for the advice! We’ve been in contact and know which ones to go with.

Hopefully we get a positive response from New Magic.


If you order direct from Angelbird they used to do custom engraving too. Make sure you check out their card readers too. They're also very well built. A lot of "issues" seem to develop around media as we're discussing, but also in the cables and card readers too.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Los Angeles
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostThu Feb 18, 2021 6:37 am

Ok update on our end.

Our testing results performed yesterday were all based on the fact that we had the lens cover on.
So no detail, image, colour etc..

After testing today, we slapped a lens on and you guessed it, within a few seconds, around 20 we dropped frames. This was at 12K 17:9 24p and 5:1 compression. With the lens cap on we got around 12 minutes before we simply stopped recording. This is all done in Constant Bit Rate.

NOW my theory, in the latest update, it's possible that the code for constant bit rate and constant quality got switched, or overwritten. Perhaps there are 2 constant quality scripts in the latest update. I don't believe they got switched but that constant bit rate got over written as the testing is reflecting very similar dropped frame times. When we add complexity to the scene it drops frames. These are characteristics of the constant quality option. As the file is allowed to grow and shrink depending on the scene....

BMD, is this possible? Could one of the recording options have been over written or deleted?

As
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline

Tim Schumann

Blackmagic Design

  • Posts: 621
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:21 am

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 19, 2021 5:15 am

No that's not possible.

Important to note that the data rate will vary in constant bitrate as well depending on the complexity of the scene... you just have a 5:1 or 8:1 or 12:1 cap on the data rate when shooting in 5:1, 8:1 or 12:1 so it never goes over the constant bitrate limit that you have set.

This is how it works in all of our cameras and releases that support Blackmagic RAW.
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 19, 2021 5:28 am

Thank you for clarifying that up Tim.

I’m leaning towards what was mentioned before in that it might be the SSD reaching a cap the dropping frames.

With the camera at room temp, as well as the SSD. We get around 14 minutes in 12K.
After which it drops frames and is incredibly hot. Both the camera and SSD. Switch off camera for around a minute then try again, we get between 30 seconds and 2 minutes.

If we cool both down in front of the aircon. We get back to the 14 minute mark.
Is it safe to assume the Samsung drive is throttling?

We’re going to get some CFast cards in and trial those to see if we get dropped frames again. If we do, we’ll send in the camera. If not, well then we’ll stick with those cards.
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 4267
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 19, 2021 5:29 am

And be sure to use dual card mode if you are planning to use those higher frame rates and less compressed codecs.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Los Angeles
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 19, 2021 5:48 am

Oh absolutely! Thanks!

We’ll go with the Matchpack to be sure.
Not sure what the differences are between that and buying them separately? But reading something about them coming from the same production line gives hope I guess :)
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 4267
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 19, 2021 5:52 am

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:Oh absolutely! Thanks!

We’ll go with the Matchpack to be sure.
Not sure what the differences are between that and buying them separately? But reading something about them coming from the same production line gives hope I guess :)


Yeah they’re the same I believe. Just a two pack.

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Los Angeles
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 19, 2021 6:14 am

Great cheers!
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline

Ryan Earl

  • Posts: 517
  • Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 19, 2021 2:10 pm

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:Oh absolutely! Thanks!

We’ll go with the Matchpack to be sure.
Not sure what the differences are between that and buying them separately? But reading something about them coming from the same production line gives hope I guess :)


Travis Hodgkinson wrote:Oh absolutely! Thanks!

We’ll go with the Matchpack to be sure.
Not sure what the differences are between that and buying them separately? But reading something about them coming from the same production line gives hope I guess :)


Travis, I hope you have good luck with the Angelbird cards. I've found the Samsung SSDs I have to be wildly inconsistent and they generally end up in various PC builds around the office that my editor works together. I'm looking at buying the 2x 1TB cards for the 12K which I believe are on the approved list as well?

Nice price breaks right now: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... ro_cf.html

Has anyone found variation in write speeds with the Angelbird cards that they own?

I've collected various generations of Komputerbay 3700x 256GB cards going back to 2017. While I've found them reliable, I can fill up cards or record for long periods (hour +) in tests, they unfortunately have varying max speeds. (2) max out below 260 mb/s, (2) are getting about 360 mb/s with the Blackmagic Disk Speed test app. The earliest I bought in 2017 are the fastest.

I put a sticker on the cards with their max speed then pair up cards to get the most speed in dual recording. I've been going low-high to get around 600 mb/s, then I made up a little card that has the max data rates from the "data rate calculator" on the 12K product page to give me a loose idea of what I can record within the speed limitation.
Offline
User avatar

joe12south

  • Posts: 782
  • Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • Real Name: Joseph Moore

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 19, 2021 10:55 pm

Travis,
Not to pile on here...but do recognize that media fails. In fact, all media fails eventually. Even great, expensive "branded" media. A drive that worked 100% perfectly one day can fail spectacularly the very next day for no known reason. Or it might go another 10 years.

Might be something else, but the only weaker link in your chain than the media itself is the cable.
Dedicated curmudgeon. Part-time artiste.
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostSat Feb 20, 2021 4:31 am

I wonder if the SSD recorder itself has any cooling tech inside. I doubt it, as the recorder stays hot for a while.
The Samsung SSD gets so hot when dropping frames, it's no wonder it's not able to continue recording.

What do you think the BMD SSD testing looks like? Will BMD share any of that information?

We've managed to get our hands on another Samsung, the same model drive at a local PC store to test.

Will post findings as soon as we're back in the studio.
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostSat Feb 20, 2021 6:01 am

Ok below are photos of the dropped frames. The settings are those of the recommended by BMD in the note they release regarding certified drives.
Attachments
IMG_2975.JPG
IMG_2975.JPG (332.13 KiB) Viewed 2378 times
IMG_2976.JPG
IMG_2976.JPG (327.34 KiB) Viewed 2378 times
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline
User avatar

Jamie LeJeune

  • Posts: 2012
  • Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:33 am
  • Location: San Francisco

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 26, 2021 12:15 am

Finally got my SSD Recorder in to test. I ran tests in both firmware 7.2 and firmware 7.2.1 recording 12K BRAW 8:1 at 50fps for over 85 minutes each time and it worked perfectly in both firmware versions. No dropped frames. These screenshots are from the test in 7.2.1 (a *super exciting* scene of the messy corner of my office).
As shown in the TRT code on the LCD, the camera had been recording for 1 hour and 27 minutes without dropping a frame.
I stopped the test before the drive had filled completely since if it can go that long, I'm satisfied that it works correctly.

The U.2 SSD that I'm using is a 3.2TB Micron 7300 from the official tested list.

I know this doesn't solve the OP's issue at all. I just thought it might be useful info for other 12K camera owners following this thread.

CleanShot 2021-02-25 at 16.06.44.png
CleanShot 2021-02-25 at 16.06.44.png (273.07 KiB) Viewed 2325 times

CleanShot 2021-02-25 at 16.06.59.png
CleanShot 2021-02-25 at 16.06.59.png (275.12 KiB) Viewed 2325 times
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 26, 2021 1:09 am

Thanks for that.

Got sent a new USB c cable from BMD.

Got well over 1hr 45 minutes. Then almost 2 hours.

The very next morning, same settings and scene. 8 seconds, then 20 seconds before failure.

We’ve given up on trying to work out what this issue is as it’s just so inconsistent now.

We cannot rely on this paperweight anymore, so we’re going to be sending it in ASAP to get more testing done.
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline
User avatar

Jamie LeJeune

  • Posts: 2012
  • Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:33 am
  • Location: San Francisco

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostFri Feb 26, 2021 1:11 am

I hope they get it fixed for you quickly!
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
Offline

greghuglin

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:05 am
  • Location: Australia
  • Real Name: greg huglin

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostMon Mar 08, 2021 8:24 pm

I'm having the same intermittent problem with my BMD 12k at 70fps.
I'm using a WD P50 Black SSD with T4 cables which should easily handle the data rate.
On one shoot, no problem and another shoot, dropped frames which show up while editing the footage on a new M1 Mac with 2tb drive.
Shows 'Media Offline' flashing over the clip and when I looked closely, there are dropped frames.
Not sure that I can trust this camera but fortunately still have my RED Epic (which has also had problems in the 9 years I've had it.)
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 4948
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostWed Mar 10, 2021 1:01 am

greghuglin wrote:I'm having the same intermittent problem with my BMD 12k at 70fps.
I'm using a WD P50 Black SSD with T4 cables which should easily handle the data rate.


This SSD is NOT on the recommend list for the camera.
I'd recommend you to read the whole thread here - especially the answers I wrote.

greghuglin wrote:On one shoot, no problem and another shoot, dropped frames which show up while editing the footage on a new M1 Mac with 2tb drive.
Shows 'Media Offline' flashing over the clip and when I looked closely, there are dropped frames.
Not sure that I can trust this camera


Not sure why you would blame the camera when you are using media not on the recommended list?
I'd say you can't trust your SSD.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
--------------------------------
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
--------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 4267
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Los Angeles California

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostWed Mar 10, 2021 1:20 am

greghuglin wrote:I'm using a WD P50 Black SSD with T4 cables which should easily handle the data rate.


Try a drive that's actually on the supported media list ?

greghuglin wrote:Not sure that I can trust this camera


I think you get to say this only AFTER you've done what's in the instruction manual first...?

And again...said it already in this thread but...

CFAST CFAST CFAST.....

JB
John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Currently - Los Angeles
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostWed Mar 10, 2021 3:17 am

I still think there’s something wrong with the SSD recorders themselves. Recall perhaps???
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline

Tom Roper

  • Posts: 521
  • Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:59 pm
  • Real Name: Tom Roper

Re: Blackmagic Camera 7.2.1 Update issues

PostWed Mar 10, 2021 5:37 am

Robert Niessner wrote:
We have a lot of reports here alone on the forum of failed Samsung drives.


That includes some reports by me of problems with a Samsung T5 on P6K. I hesitate to post here, I hope this is not unwelcome, but the topic is "USB-C" and I have something to add. So indulge me John Brawley this one time. I will depart the topic after this one observation.

I have since not had any problems with the Samsung T5. To recap, the first and major corruption was when the battery browned out in the middle of a recording. I could no longer read the SSD, but some recovery software was able to recover the files intact. So lesson #1 was to never again chance a power outage.

Lesson #2, and the one that applies here in this topic (maybe), is that when the drive gets sluggish, dropping frames, is after doing an in-camera format to erase the files, which does not delete the actual data. When performing an in-camera format, you are re-writing over previously used areas of data that have not been formatted as zeros. The solution I advocate here has worked 100%, and I have had no problems with the same Samsung T5 that gave me the problems, is to do a deep (slow) format, of the same allocation unit size, in the PC writing 0's to all the data areas, followed by a quick format in-camera. The deep format takes some time, the in-camera format takes seconds, the deep format writes 0's to all the data areas, the in-camera quick format only resets the root directory/fat pointers. Once you've finished shooting, don't re-use the SSD until you've repeated the full deep format process. It's been 100% for me. The Samsung T5, and Delkin Juggler (which is approved) can both do (on the P6K) 3:1 CBR with low motion, like capturing the moon moving across the frame. It recorded the full duration (about 20 minutes) without a frame drop at 6K 16:9 50 FPS. Obviously, if the scene has details and motion then 5:1 or 8:1 CBR or Q5. But the larger point, is do the deep format, not the quick format. You can even remove the drive and connect the USB to a PC for file copying or even editing directly on the disk, and immediately go right back to shooting with it in the camera if there is space left as long as you don't do any kind of erasure or quick formatting. The only in-camera formatting I do on USB-C 3.1 SSD is after I have first deep formatted it in the PC.

It's worth a try, that's all. If it didn't work this way on the Ursa 12K, it hasn't cost you anything but a small effort to try. Good Luck, Tom out.
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostWed Mar 10, 2021 9:23 am

Ok so I’ve got a response from BMD.

Apparently it’s the USBC cable. Are you kidding me!!!

They even sent out a replacement cable which was tested and I was assured it worked.

So after that new cable failing, we sent in the Ursa 12K, SSD recorder and the Samsung SSD.
This cost $320 to send in and now you’re telling me the issue was the USBC cable.... what an absolute joke.

I knew it wasn’t the SSD, despite some user going on and on about it likely being the fault...

We’re incredibly pissed about all of this.

Do yourself a favour. DON’T BUY THE URSA12K!!!! At least not yet. Wait a year or two and pickup a second hand one. A $14k cinema camera should at the very least be supplied with incredibly good quality cables. Especially when it concerns Data transfer!!! From missing markers on our camera to unreliable recordings. This has been a painful experience. Our plan to purchase two 6k Pros to accommodate the 12K have flown right out of the window.

Where’s the compensation for the $320 to send in the camera???? What are we supposed to keep forking out that amount when the USBC cable fails again!???
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline

Edzel Yago

  • Posts: 11
  • Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:31 pm
  • Location: Surrey, BC
  • Real Name: Edzel Yago

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostWed Apr 14, 2021 6:41 pm

Did the USBC cable replacement work?

We've been through a few enclosures on drives that, with our tests and specs should work (speeds should be good - provisioning accounted for), as well as swapping out cables (USB-IF certified cables even).

We're looking at getting getting the recorder and drives that are on the certified list but if you're having trouble with those then we're probably just going to look at swapping out 3-6 of our 12Ks for something else...
Production Manager at Linus Media Group
Offline
User avatar

Travis Hodgkinson

  • Posts: 518
  • Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:30 am
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostWed Apr 14, 2021 10:42 pm

The USBC cable has worked since receiving the camera back. This was the 3rd cable though. BMD are looking at other suppliers apparently. Upon close inspection, they've applied a glue to the power connector between the recorder and camera, but it's been poorly applied. :evil:

Unrelated:
A couple of days later, our dials on the camera have started splitting. Apparently this is a known issue and a new supplier is being sought for those as well. Still haven't received our replacement dials. :x

If you'd like to purchase our Recorder and Samsung U.2 SSD we'd be happy to do a great deal for you. Just PM me on here if you're interested.
Freelance Camera Op & Cinematographer based in Brisbane, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Weapons: URSA 12K + Canon XF605 + Hero 10 + Pocket 6K Pro
Optics: DZO Pictor Zooms + SLR Magic Hyper Prime + Tokina Cinema Zoom
Offline

Paeanproduction

  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:02 am
  • Real Name: Jaquawn Miller

Re: USB-C Record issues on URSA Mini Pro 12K

PostMon Nov 01, 2021 5:16 am

I had a similar problem just recently. I found that all USB 3.1 cables are not created equal. USB gen 2 cables seem to work more efficiently, as they provide speeds up to 10 gaps. I also notice that whatever company makes the cable matters as well. The USB 3.1 cables that come with the Samsung T5 seem to work well with most NVME ssds and ssds alike. I also choose a ssd that can support approx 3200 mbps. To be honest I found the USB port on the ursa 12 to be finicky, it requires the best connection and ssd write speed.
Previous

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Brad Hurley, Google Feedfetcher, WahWay and 91 guests