Pocket 6K Pro

I was a bit bummed that Blackmagic did not use their new sensor in the P6KPro. I do not know what the yield is when they are producing the new sensors...but I thought they could save $ on the ones that didnt make the cut, and put it in a lower model. Maybe sensor fabrication don't work like this? I dunno.

A sensor kinda works or it doesn't. But what exactly were you hoping to get out of a different sensor?

I suspect a unified camera architecture. I am not surprised that the new tech is absent in this new camera, it would have been nice, but very costly at present. I remember JB mentioning that the new sensor was very expensive. It will come, and once it does there will be no 4K,6K, or 8K choice of camera. Just one camera to cover the lower end.

For me the EVF, tilt screen, and NDs would have been a perfect addition to the 4K, I would have been down to my supplier straight away, but this 6K Pro is without extra batteries twice the size of the 4K! and I have always thought the 4K was too big! A new form factor is needed, the giant SLR is just getting silly.

Steve

A sensor kinda works or it doesn't. But what exactly were you hoping to get out of a different sensor?

Yes...but it is done in the CPU and GPU business. (See: chip binning)

Their new RGBWWW and its color fidelity is what I would look forward to. More importantly...4K RAW..uncropped at S35. I know the Ursa12k sensor can do this. I don't expect BlackMagic to introduce a new Super 35 sensor just for 4k raw. But maybe, those 12k sensors that did not make the cut could have been used in this new model doing 6k or 4k.

Most get distracted by the 12k number BUT the real leap forward with this sensor is the colour response. I just shot again the other day with the 12k and the thing that slaps you in the face when you go back to it is it’s beautiful colour response. Not the resolution.

...

They will no doubt make more RGBW cameras but the timeline would be more likely in the next cycle.

JB

Fantastic! I 'll gladly wait for those cameras.
And Gen 5 for the Pockets makes waiting a bit easier for me.

I'm pretty confident that in a blind A/B test at 4K, with all else being equal, no one could consistently pick out the U12K from the P6K. In fact, I'm pretty confident this is true between most any modern camera in any reasonably controlled shooting condition.

We've gotten to the point that pure PQ is near the bottom of the reasons to choose one camera over another...and that's a good thing.

So you're saying that I should buy a Sony A7Siii and get IBIS, AF, built in EVF because all sensors are the same? Interesting how excited JB and others were with the 12K sensor when it came out and they all said it wasn't about the k's. I've always been underwhelmed with the 4k/6k look which is why I'm still shooting with the P2k. The footage I saw with the 12K had some of the magic that I associate with those older sensors. If all sensors are adequate but features are the thing then it would make sense to go for a more compact body elsewhere.

For me, I got into BM for the je ne sais quoi of those original sensors. Since they've given me a taste of that cake again last year, I'll wait for a smaller slice. The caveat being that as an artist and not a pro, I can wait until I don't have to do some Yedlin like histrionics over the 'just the facts ma'am' of Sony sensors.

Yes...but it is done in the CPU and GPU business. (See: chip binning)

That has a lot to do with the fact that CPUs and GPUs are designed in blocks of logic or memory, and the physical location of a given block is largely irrelevant to how it's addressed. If in testing core 0 is toast, you can remap core 8 to core 0, disable core 0, and still have cores 0-7. Same with memory; there's always extra die area dedicated to memory because it takes up a lot of space, and the redundancy allows for remapping without sacrifice.

Now look at a sensor. If you have a block of photo sites that are dead because of a wafer defect, and they're somewhere in the middle beyond what you can crop out, how do you remap them? Grab data from the pixels in the top left and plop their data into data stream to replace the dead pixels in the middle? That would have the same effect as using the clone tool in Resolve but not being able to move either the source or the destination, or alter their size, or disable the tool at all. If it's a stacked sensor as I suspect that it is, then there's going to be a second set of potential defect problems on the stacked chip, which due to being sensor sized is also quite large. And the same issue applies -- if there's a bad block in the middle, that bad block is either pulling no data or bogus data. Toast.

The other binning factor is clock speed. CPUs and GPUs are all designed with a target clock speed in mind, or these days a target baseline + boost clock speed. It's reliable at 4.8GHz boost, but not at 5.2? Mark it 4.8, bin it, and Bob's your uncle. Change the clock speed on a sensor, and all sorts of things will change -- noise, heat, readout times and timings, etc. It's a full system redesign, not a just a tweak. The 12K hasn't been out in the wild for long, but BMD is probably going to expand its range throughout its line over time.

Their new RGBWWW and its color fidelity is what I would look forward to. More importantly...4K RAW..uncropped at S35. I know the Ursa12k sensor can do this. I don't expect BlackMagic to introduce a new Super 35 sensor just for 4k raw. But maybe, those 12k sensors that did not make the cut could have been used in this new model doing 6k or 4k.

The data rates are probably too high for the Pocket's infrastructure, even once the rest is sorted out. I wouldn't be surprised if BMD is already working on a successor that has higher system bandwidth and more computing power, along with CFExpress support to sustain the higher data rates, but that's a significant engineering effort, which takes time even for BMD.

@Paul, @Donnell, @Tim, @Marshall

Okay I mounted my SLR Magic PL->EF adapter (aluminum ring) on the old EF-S Canon Rebel XT. It fit fine. After unscrewing the rear element HOUSING from my SLR Magic APO primes they fit the throat of the adapter and didn’t have any issue with the small rear element projecting modestly as I focused to infinity. Took some pictures and the mirror worked fine. So perhaps the adapter I have is only for SLR Magic APO primes as described by B&H Photo because my lenses are designed to remove the rear element housing when fitting to an EF mount.

I tried my Tokina 11-20mm CinemaATX zoom, but the rear element housing is also a single milled piece that includes the PL mounting points so it cannot be removed. And it cannot fit into the SLR Magic aluminum-coloured adapter.

The deeper most narrow part of the throat is about 46mm on my adapter. But there’s a shallow throat near the PL mounting points that is about 55mm. So any lens that projects more than 5-6mm beyond the flange is going to restricted in its diameter by the 46mm throat nearer the sensor. If the lens doesn’t project then it likely fits within the 55mm throat nearer the flange.

Perhaps the cheaper $150USD adapter will be fine, but I don’t have that. I bought my adapter when I bought the first SLR Magic APO (50mm) lens back in 2016. Hopefully B&H Photo will be able to confirm if the all-black adapter is the way to go.

I would be nervous about putting on a PL lens to the other adapter without hearing from someone who has done it. I don’t want to feel responsible for causing any damage for anyone. So back to waiting to hear from BMD perhaps (or B&H Photo) shortly. I do feel if your rear element extends more than 13 mm, it’s risky if not verboten.

A sensor kinda works or it doesn't. But what exactly were you hoping to get out of a different sensor?

Yes...but it is done in the CPU and GPU business. (See: chip binning)

Their new RGBWWW and its color fidelity is what I would look forward to. More importantly...4K RAW..uncropped at S35.

As someone has already said CPU, GPU and memory yields work differently. Bad sensors are pretty much just bad. You can't just map around dead pixels in the middle of a sensor.

In terms of PQ difference, I think it's fair to say that the new 12K sensor hasn't demonstrated a significantly better image. Other than the resolution, there's little to distinguish it from the image coming off of bayer pattern sensors, and even then, apparent detail isn't significantly better than 8K (or even some 4K) bayer pattern sensors. I'm really rooting for BMD, I expected it to be better, I *want* it to be better, but I'm just not seeing it.

Variable resolution BRAW without cropping would indeed be a reason to want new sensor tech, if that indeed is actually dependent on the sensor. But if I'm not mistaken, the 6K Pro DOES allow for full-sensor 4K BRAW, doesn't it?

So I just scored a cheap used Wooden PL Modification kit and actually found a seller that is receiving P6K Pro stock on Monday. So I guess I'll be the guinea pig to see if the modification works with this model as well.

did I miss it or does anyone know when the cam should be showing up in the stores..

As Blackmagic claimed this to be "in stock" I contacted a slew of different EU dealers today. While most of them had no clue when they would get stock, there was a small dealer that said he had two cameras coming in on Monday and he would send one of them out to me. As always with BMD product releases it seems like the bigger established dealers actually have a longer waitlists than smaller ones.

I think that's pretty normal. The bigger retailers tend to attract more pre-orders than the smaller ones, but they probably get their orders in at around the same time. If B&H orders 100 when Voice and Vision orders 10, but B&H has 1000 preorders in the queue, and Voice and Vision has 5 V&V might actually have five in stock while B&H has a month long wait.

That seems to happen with every popular item that launches in this space.

So perhaps the adapter I have is only for SLR Magic APO primes as described by B&H Photo because my lenses are designed to remove the rear element housing when fitting to an EF mount.

Perhaps the cheaper $150USD adapter will be fine, but I don’t have that.

Rick, the $150 adapter came with a few of the SLR Magic APOs in PL I bought. The 25mm - 85mm, when adapted to EF all work well on my Pocket 6K and Canon 5Ds. I think the only lens I have to remove a ring on is the 85mm.

My main concern is weight, when I adapt the lenses, they feel too heavy on the 6K and I generally get them supported right away or always handle them by the lens only when shooting handheld. I'd be interested to know how much weight the Pocket 6K mount can handle.

The adapter is a little hit or miss with other PL Lenses and I did find that the newest Meike S35 35mm 2.1 PL did not work.

So I just scored a cheap used Wooden PL Modification kit and actually found a seller that is receiving P6K Pro stock on Monday. So I guess I'll be the guinea pig to see if the modification works with this model as well.

Paul, which PL lenses do you want to use with the 6K? Cool to hear you are going for the modification right away, I considered it with the Pocket 6K but found I could adapt what I needed to pretty easily without modding.

The benefit to sticking with EF is IS in lenses like the Canon 16-35mm f4 and 35mm F2 IS and using cheaper EF-S IS zooms.

Ryan, good to know the cheaper one does the job on the BMPCC6K. I would expect that given the extra FFD. I am concerned that the integrated ND filters in the BMPCC6K Pro might make contact with the rear element or housing of some PL lenses.

Thanks Rick! You may have just sold me on getting the Pocket 6K Pro and the SLR Magic PL Adapter.

I finally got home and am going to finally watch the live stream. I'm also going to look completely into what is in the Pocket 6K Pro fully. See if it's what I need. Probably. Should I sell the Pocket 6K or keep it will be the next question.

Hey Tim, After reading Ricks posts regarding this adapter he's thinking that 13mm of rear element travel (assuming that means from the end of the mount to the physical end of the lens) is the limit. Just measured the Pictor zooms which came in around 22mm. Does not seem like this adapter will be a solution. Wondering if Blackmagic could weigh in on this one. Or perhaps JB who so often sheds light on shadows.

Well, I'm still paying off the credit card debt of the new iMac first. So I have no problem waiting and maybe a Pocket 6K Pro PL will be hinted or come. But, either way, the P6KPro intrigues me enough that eventually I will add one. If I can't use PL lenses like my DZOFilm lenses with an adapter, then I'll stick to the Sigma lenses in EF. I'll just have to push Blackmagic to do a PL version to use my DZOFilm lenses.

We play with the cards we are dealt. If the cards aren’t right, we fold and wait for the next hand. We are still in the game. Because the rewards are there waiting to be claimed.

In terms of PQ difference, I think it's fair to say that the new 12K sensor hasn't demonstrated a significantly better image.

I disagree.

Currently shooting DXL2. Recently shot Venice and various Alexa. And G2.

There’s an instant difference you notice with the 12k.

Instant.

Also, dead pixels get mapped around all the time. Most sensors have dozens of them.

JB

But maybe, those 12k sensors that did not make the cut could have been used in this new model doing 6k or 4k.

Not exactly how it works.

You have a sensor that passes or doesn’t. It’s based on many attributes. But the reject ones are really re-purpose-able like you’re describing.

JB

How are people mounting their AB / Vlock batteries on pockets? I wouldn't want to block the screen but putting a plate + battery underneath makes the camera so high.

I love the idea of the pro grip but I need to power Teradek modules. It would be great to keep it as neat as possible.

+1 for a Pocket 4k pro or a 6K pro with mft mount

6K pro with mft mount

How would that work with an S35 size sensor?

A 4k mode maybe and 6k with adapted lenses only that cover a bigger circle. I am not an engineer, so please forgive my ignorance (I was thinking of the JVC camera which is limited of course to 4K)

POCKET 6K PRO

Pocket 6k.jpg (777.29 KiB) Viewed 11086 times

- Very good battery life
- Perfect Screen bright and tilt options
- Variable ND
- Who needs second XLR with bad amplifier behind

Do you wanna more smaller rig dont' buy a cinema camera !!

Currently shooting DXL2. Recently shot Venice and various Alexa. And G2.

There’s an instant difference you notice with the 12k.

John,
Even at that end of the camera spectrum – in absolute terms – the PQ differences are quite small You could intercut any of those cameras and with only modest corrections.The most obvious differences likely coming from the format size.

When it comes down to choosing a tool, sure, why not analyze to the nth degree? Why not, afforded the chance, pick the tool that is even just 1% better suited than another? But shouldn't we also be realistic when evaluating the results? That 1% difference was probably only meaningful to us.

I guess to put it another way...other than price and form factor, what's an obvious reason to pick a 12K over another similarly spec'd S35 camera? A reason that would be noticeable to an average audience member? (Sincere question, not trying to troll.)

Also, dead pixels get mapped around all the time. Moat sensors have dozens of them.

Derp, you are of course, right. The gooey center still remains, even though I got the toppings wrong.

6K pro with mft mount

How would that work with an S35 size sensor?

Why does a 6K have to have an S35 sized sensor? GH5 has a M43 sized 6K sensor. The GH6, if it ever sees the light of day, likely has an MFT sized 8K sensor.

Currently shooting DXL2. Recently shot Venice and various Alexa. And G2.

There’s an instant difference you notice with the 12k.

John,
Even at that end of the camera spectrum – in absolute terms – the PQ differences are quite small You could intercut any of those cameras and with only modest corrections.The most obvious differences likely coming from the format size.

When it comes down to choosing a tool, sure, why not analyze to the nth degree? Why not, afforded the chance, pick the tool that is even just 1% better suited than another? But shouldn't we also be realistic when evaluating the results? That 1% difference was probably only meaningful to us.

I guess to put it another way...other than price and form factor, what's an obvious reason to pick a 12K over another similarly spec'd S35 camera? A reason that would be noticeable to an average audience member? (Sincere question, not trying to troll.)

Small differences not worthy of spending money on for some are substantial improvements worth every penny for others. It's not all to do with what the audience can see but what's the best most flexible data to give post production to work with.

6K pro with mft mount

How would that work with an S35 size sensor?

Why does a 6K have to have an S35 sized sensor? GH5 has a M43 sized 6K sensor. The GH6, if it ever sees the light of day, likely has an MFT sized 8K sensor.

But it 'has' an s35 sensor - go ask BM about that decision.

Pocket 6k.jpg

- Very good battery life
- Perfect Screen bright and tilt options
- Variable ND
- Who needs second XLR with bad amplifier behind

Do you wanna more smaller rig dont' buy a cinema camera !!

I'd purchase the 6K Pro just for the tilting screen and built-in ND. I don't record sound to camera, but I have no doubt that two XLR inputs will be attractive to people who do. On power, I'm sold on the new V-mount ~50Wh batteries that are quite light and small enough that they'll fit in a shirt pocket. I have no interest in starting a collection of low capacity NP-F batteries, or in adding a battery grip. I'd make a decision about the EVF after checking it out in person. If it turns out that it's possible to run a cable from the EVF to the camera, I'd be particularly interested.

I think that the new lineup is a Pocket 4K and a "Pro" Pocket 6K. In other words, if I owned the current 6K, and didn't have an ongoing need for it, I'd sell it ASAP.

However, for me this is theoretical. I have a Pocket 4K, my lenses, which I don't intend to replace, won't work with EF mount, and Blackmagic has nothing on the horizon, at least publicly, that would. As a practical matter, my current options are other brands with Leica mount, Canon RF mount or Sony E or FZ mount.

I'm sold on the new V-mount ~50Wh batteries that fit in a shirt pocket and are quite light.

Not to derail this thread, quick question. Rob, which V-mount is this that fit in a shirt pocket and light?

I'm sold on the new V-mount ~50Wh batteries that fit in a shirt pocket and are quite light.

Not to derail this thread, quick question. Rob, which V-mount is this that fit in a shirt pocket and light?

I'm using Hawk-Woods's Mini V-Lok 50Wh. In the last few months, Anton/Bauer and Core SWX have launched similar batteries. Bebob has one as well. The following post is about the Anton/Bauer, Core SWX and Bebob offerings, and the post right after is about the amperage of Anton/Bauer's USB-A port: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105319&start=300#p708354

There's a spreadsheet earlier in that thread on Hawk-Woods runtime. The others should perform similarly, adjusted for Wh.

I'm sold on the new V-mount ~50Wh batteries that fit in a shirt pocket and are quite light.

Not to derail this thread, quick question. Rob, which V-mount is this that fit in a shirt pocket and light?

I'm using Hawk-Woods's Mini V-Lok 50Wh. In the last few months, Anton/Bauer and Core SWX have launched similar batteries. Bebob has one as well. The following post is about the Anton/Bauer, Core SWX and Bebob offerings, and the post right after is about the amperage of Anton/Bauer's USB-A port: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105319&start=300#p708354

There's a spreadsheet earlier in that thread on Hawk-Woods runtime. The others should perform similarly, adjusted for Wh.

Thanks. I'll check out the Hawk-Woods. I have the Core SWX PowerEdge. Is smaller but won't fit in a shirt pocket and not light.

Thanks. I'll check out the Hawk-Woods. I have the Core SWX PowerEdge. Is smaller but won't fit in a shirt pocket and not light.

Look at the Anton/Bauer and Bebob as well. The Core SWX is 98Wh, so somewhat larger and heavier than these ~50Wh batteries, but it's also cheaper per Wh. If you want a 3A USB-A port, Anton/Bauer's new battery has you covered.

I am concerned that the integrated ND filters in the BMPCC6K Pro might make contact with the rear element or housing of some PL lenses.

Lensrentals has an adapted Pocket 6K to PL which I've rented here: https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/blackm ... -mount-mod

They've been a good source for which lenses will work with the current mod. If they get a hold of Pocket 6K Pro and adapt it maybe they can give some feedback on compatibility with the built in NDs.

I imagine they don't want you renting a PL lens and camera combo then trying to jam them together yourself before they've tested it.

Ryan, love Lensrentals and all the amazing blog posts they do! However I couldn't find any compatability charts on the site you linked? Perhaps I missed it, so please let me know, as the list on the Wooden site is somewhat limited, would be curious to read Lensrentals results, especially knowing how comprehensive and detailed their tests usually are.

Lensrentals has an adapted Pocket 6K to PL which I've rented here: https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/blackm ... -mount-mod

They've been a good source for which lenses will work with the current mod. If they get a hold of Pocket 6K Pro and adapt it maybe they can give some feedback on compatibility with the built in NDs.

I imagine they don't want you renting a PL lens and camera combo then trying to jam them together yourself before they've tested it.

Since I got the UMP G2 and P6K, I amass a number of EF lenses. I have no need for the added P6K Pro feature as my rig already does what it needs to do, and ND, IR filters all there. If I need a P6K Pro with PL mount, or for now a camera with PL mount, the way to go for me is just rent it for the needed project, time, and budget.

Look at the Anton/Bauer and Bebob as well. The Core SWX is 98Wh, so somewhat larger and heavier than these ~50Wh batteries, but it's also cheaper per Wh. If you want a 3A USB-A port, Anton/Bauer's new battery has you covered.

Thanks again. The Core SWX PowerEdge (PBE-BMPC4) model I have is 49Wh - still larger and heavy.

Ryan, love Lensrentals and all the amazing blog posts they do! However I couldn't find any compatability charts on the site you linked? Perhaps I missed it, so please let me know, as the list on the Wooden site is somewhat limited, would be curious to read Lensrentals results, especially knowing how comprehensive and detailed their tests usually are.

I've emailed them and Wooden Camera with lenses I was thinking of using like Zeiss Super Speeds m1. I don't know if there is a full chart anywhere. I just checked Wooden Camera and they have a diagram I hadn't seen before: https://woodencamera.com/products/pl-mo ... -camera-6k

I'm guessing they will update their chart as soon as they get the 6K Pro too.

Pocket 6K Mod Diagram

Screen Shot 2021-02-19 at 10.53.12 AM.png (739.93 KiB) Viewed 10926 times

I bought the Meike 35mm 2.1 as PL thinking I could just adapt it to the Pocket 6K, but it did only work with the Wooden Camera mod so far, I haven't found another adapter that works. It's mount is pretty traditionally large, where the SLR Magic APO PL work with EF pretty seamlessly with their adapter.

Ryan, love Lensrentals and all the amazing blog posts they do! However I couldn't find any compatability charts on the site you linked? Perhaps I missed it, so please let me know, as the list on the Wooden site is somewhat limited...

This one? I would say the presence of the ND assembly makes any comparison to the P6KP anecdotal for now.

Additionally, soft EF to PL adapters will have the most success with lenses that were designed for SLR mounts, ie, CP2s, SLR Magics, Canons, Schneiders, etc.,

Good Luck

WC Chart.png (455.76 KiB) Viewed 10904 times

But it 'has' an s35 sensor - go ask BM about that decision.

Fair enough. MFT mount almost always equals MFT sensor size...except for one or two weirdo cameras like those JVCs nobody bought.

Small differences not worthy of spending money on for some are substantial improvements worth every penny for others. It's not all to do with what the audience can see but what's the best most flexible data to give post production to work with.

That's why I stipulated "absolute" differences. I already granted that there are minority differences. There are reasons to use a Phantom, too.

When we use language that makes it seem like there are **big** PQ differences between the current generation of cameras/sensors I think we do ourselves a disservice. In the context of everything that goes into making a compelling moving image, the difference between one sensor and another has gone from being considerable to minimal in short order. As a reason to pick one camera over another, compared to ergonomics, workflow, etc., it has become almost as insignificant.

Ryan, love Lensrentals and all the amazing blog posts they do! However I couldn't find any compatability charts on the site you linked? Perhaps I missed it, so please let me know, as the list on the Wooden site is somewhat limited...

This one? I would say the presence of the ND assembly makes any comparison to the P6KP anecdotal for now.

Additionally, soft EF to PL adapters will have the most success with lenses that were designed for SLR mounts, ie, CP2s, SLR Magics, Canons, Schneiders, etc.,

Good Luck

WC Chart.png

LOL thanks Howard.

The chart is missing some good information, it should delineate the negatives so they may separated from the omissions. I didn't see the MK Superspeeds listed, it would be nice to know if it was a "fail" or "we haven't tested them yet".

Good Luck

That's why I stipulated "absolute" differences. I already granted that there are minority differences. There are reasons to use a Phantom, too.

When we use language that makes it seem like there are **big** PQ differences between the current generation of cameras/sensors I think we do ourselves a disservice. In the context of everything that goes into making a compelling moving image, the difference between one sensor and another has gone from being considerable to minimal in short order. As a reason to pick one camera over another, compared to ergonomics, workflow, etc., it has become almost as insignificant.

With high-end production, small but objective differences will still be deemed important and so cheap, relative to the overall budget, as to not be cost-impediments.

For most everything else, there will be so many other more significant production shortcomings -- forgetting for a moment lousy writing, direction and performance - that the camera is pretty much beside the point once a threshold of quality has been reached, as it has today, with many good cinema-capable choices. This will be probably be fatal to the camera business.

Good points Kim. Also since the new Pro version uses the same sensor as the original Pocket 6K, sensor readout times will be the same. Software updates are not going to change the sensor readout times, which is fixed by the hardware/sensor being used.
Cheers

Howard, that chart was the one I referred to that I had already seen. Sounded to me like Ryan was referring to more info, directly from Lensrentals, but I hadn't considered just emailing them directly.

I have emailed Wooden Camera and they said they are trying to get their hands on one and will test, but to check back with them in a month or so.

Howard, are you implying that soft adapters would have an advantage in terms of compatibility over the hard modification? I cannot imagine any lenses that would fit on an adapter but not on the modification or am I missing something? Obviously besides the advantage of being easier to remove, but I am speaking purely about compatibility here.

For what its worth, I have compared the pictures of the sensor and lens mount on the Blackmagic website between the 6k and 6k Pro. Unfortunately they are taking from slightly different angles, so not perfectly comparable, but just from looking at the picture it seems like the ND-assembly is so far up the throat as to not make a different to any clearance further up. Anyway, that's just speculation. I have both a 6K Pro and a mod kit on my way, so once they'll get here, I'll start testing with whatever PL-glass I have access to then.

Even at that end of the camera spectrum – in absolute terms – the PQ differences are quite small You could intercut any of those cameras and with only modest corrections.The most obvious differences likely coming from the format size.

You made a few claims. It was actually really your opinion.

I refute the claims, based mostly on having shot hundreds of hours on many cameras. Including the 12K. Which I’m going to assume you have not. But let’s go through it again.

You can't just map around dead pixels in the middle of a sensor.

Wrong. You can, it’s done routinely for every single sensor made by every singular camera maker out there, sometimes user driven, sometimes not. Typically in manufacturing there are always some dead pixels even when it ships to you brand new, you just never see them because the re-mapping tends to be automatic. Over time more and more pixels will fail and re-mapping takes care of this.

In terms of PQ difference, I think it's fair to say that the new 12K sensor hasn't demonstrated a significantly better image.

Your subjective opinion.

Mine is very different, and I notice immediately when I go back to shooting with the 12K camera after shooting with others. That’s my opinion, based on you know...shooting with them all and going through the whole process to post and delivery.

Other than the resolution, there's little to distinguish it from the image coming off of bayer pattern sensors, and even then, apparent detail isn't significantly better than 8K (or even some 4K) bayer pattern sensors.

Resolution is the least interesting thing about the 12K sensor.

It’s unique way of seeing colour. It’s ability to scale resolution with the same sensor size are far more interesting. These are both UNIQUE features that no other sensor offers. I’d call that ”distinguishing”.

I *want* it to be better, but I'm just not seeing it.

Maybe your opinion would be more credible if you’d shot with one ? I’m guessing you haven’t.

Go rent one, rent some decent lenses and then the credibility of your opinion might change for me. Right now you’re making “absolute” comments that are really opinions that don’t match my own experience.

But if I'm not mistaken, the 6K Pro DOES allow for full-sensor 4K BRAW, doesn't it?

Wrong. Sensor scaling is unique and dare I flog a dead horse, a distinguishing feature of the RGBW sensor.

You’re making unqualified claims, posting as if you are an authoritative “expert” and that kind of irks me. I want you to go and do one of your breakdowns and make some more great content with the 12K and then come back and we can have a different discussion.

JB

For what its worth, I have compared the pictures of the sensor and lens mount on the Blackmagic website between the 6k and 6k Pro. Unfortunately they are taking from slightly different angles, so not perfectly comparable, but just from looking at the picture it seems like the ND-assembly is so far up the throat as to not make a different to any clearance further up. Anyway, that's just speculation. I have both a 6K Pro and a mod kit on my way, so once they'll get here, I'll start testing with whatever PL-glass I have access to then.

I’m about to install the WC PL adaptor myself. The ND is behind the sensor cover glass, which hasn’t moved or changed it’s position compared to the 6K. I suspect the same list of compatible lenses apply, and frankly, I think it’s wider than the list from WC infers. I just think they haven’t listed / kept it updated.

JB

You can't just map around dead pixels in the middle of a sensor.

Wrong. You can, it’s done routinely for every single sensor made by every singular camera maker out there, sometimes user driven, sometimes not. Typically in manufacturing there are always some dead pixels even when it ships to you brand new, you just never see them because the re-mapping tends to be automatic. Over time more and more pixels will fail and re-mapping takes care of this.

JB

I think the confusion here is that a wafer defect isn't likely to kill a pixel here or there, but rather a block of pixels in a region. Plus there's also a good chance of losing readout for an entire row of pixels, or a group of rows. You can't just bin that back into sellability, which contributes to the high cost of large sensors. Getting yields on them up is hard to accomplish, and harder still when they're stacked -- and the stacked sensor shares the same considerations.

I think the confusion here is that a wafer defect isn't likely to kill a pixel here or there, but rather a block of pixels in a region. Plus there's also a good chance of losing readout for an entire row of pixels, or a group of rows. You can't just bin that back into sellability, which contributes to the high cost of large sensors. Getting yields on them up is hard to accomplish, and harder still when they're stacked -- and the stacked sensor shares the same considerations.

I think it's not just pixels though. There's so many ways a sensor can "fail" a QC. And that means there's not really any logic to making smaller cuts from reject larger sensors.

It just means less chance of rejection per sensor when they're made smaller. Larger sensors have a greater chance of having a catastrophic problem that get's them rejected.

I seem to recall that the rejection rate on Monstro 8K sensors was approaching 80%. They throw away most of them.

JB